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Program Announcements / EZrotate ~ Solve your rotation problems!

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Ron Erickson
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Posted: 8th Mar 2004 21:01 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 21:13
Confused about Euler angles?
Do you think DBPro's rotation commands are buggy?

Here is your answer! Go to my site and check out the demo of EZrotate.
Features:
-Global Rotation (the way you expect it to work!)
-Local Rotation (Works flawlessly with global unlike DBPro's)
-Set up using Euler angles OR rotation matrix!
-Return by Euler angles OR rotation matrix!

*edit*
Now FREE!

Go check it out:
http://www.ericksonline.com

Ron Erickson ~ a.k.a. WOLF
ericksonline

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
spooky
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 00:02
Downloaded demo and looks REALLY good although paying for something that should be working anyway is annoying! If you can get it working, why can't Lee.

I wonder what the chances of U6 fixing all the rotation problems are...

'none' is my bet.

I will have a proper play tomorrow to see if it really does work!

Boo!
Rob K
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 01:11
Hi WOLF,

You've done a great job, and the working local rotation is very useful. Unfortunately if I brought this I would essentially be paying for a bugfix which I view as wrong.

The matrix-based rotation could be useful.


BlueGUI-Windows UI Plugin
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 02:52
Rotation DOES work in DBPro. If it didn't, I wouldn't have been able to write this dll.
It is the misunderstanding of Euler angles that is screwing everyone up!
As I said before, the only bug with rotations in DBpro is when you use the PITCH,ROLL,TURN commands it screws up the angles that are returned. Even when Mike or Lee fix that problem, it will NOT make global rotation ANY easier. There is absolutely nothing wrong with global rotation in DBpro. They just don't work how people expect them to.
I'm not trying to sell a bug-fix. When that ONE problem is fixed, people will still think rotations are broken. This plug-in solves peoples mis-understanding and the headache of trying to. It adds features. It isn't about fixing broken ones.
After the bug is fixed in DBpro, you'll see. You still won't be able to do what you think you should be able to. You can spend a few weeks trying to wrap your head around it, or you can spend $5 and be done with it forever.

Possible future additions to the plug-in include.
-Rotation around a vector
-Usage of Quaternion values
-Orbiting rotation and translation

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
Philip
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 07:36 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 07:38
Thats all true.

Wolf, this is good work and I applaud it. I've got to say that what with your great work on Tokamak and now this if there was an annual DBPro awards ceremony you'd be in the running for a prize. However, like RobK I also tend to think Lee should put these commands into DBPro natively.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P1.3ghz / 384 megs / GeForce MX 5200 128meg / WinXP home
spooky
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 12:40
@WOLF - I also agree that ALL DBPro rotation commands work as expected. You are also correct in stating that it is only the free-flight commands (roll,pitch,turn) that VISUALLY work perfectly but return the wrong values into OBJECT ANGLE commands. This makes it very difficult to write a free-flight game. They should return euler rotation angles.

Hopefully once this is presumably fixed in U6 then everyone will be a lot happier (including me!). It will hopefully fix the bug with the camera orientation commands with free-flight objects.

Boo!
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 12:54
Well, how about this. I'll make it free!
I've invested a good bit of time working this out. Maybe not directly working on this tool, but banging my head off the wall with Euler rotations. I've been waiting since 1999 (when I first downloaded the demo od DB classic) for this added functionality. No one ever did it. I've seen a LOT of requests for it, but I've never seen it done. If I wouldn't have done it, I'd still be waiting, and who knows for how long.
I could easily say that RobK's BlueIDE is "paying for something that should be a part of DBPro". After all, TGC are not supporting their native IDE with updates. Still, BlueIDE offers added functionality that most editors would not.
That is what EZrotate does.
It is not worth the hassle to me to sell a couple copies of this. The only reason that I wanted to sell it in the first place was to help support my site.
I have bigger and better ideas to drain all of your wallets in the near future. So, what the hell. Download EZrotate. Use it at your will. Remember where you got it. And maybe, just maybe, when U6 comes out and you see that THIS functionality still isn't native, click on the donate button on my site.
Maybe since I'm in such a GIVING mood, the bug will spread and RobK will give me a free copy of his editor.

I should have the full version of EZrotate available for free on my site within a couple of hours.

Ron Erickson ~ a.k.a. WOLF
ericksonline

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 14:25
It is up on my site for free now.
Have fun!

http://www.ericksonline.com

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
spooky
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 15:09
WOW!! - you generous chap! I think this deserves pride of place in next newsletter and this thread to be as sticky as a very sticky thing covered in sticky stuff.

Have tested the global rotation on marble madness type game and it rocks! This was not possible before.

Boo!
adr
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 15:21 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 15:25
Quote: "I have bigger and better ideas to drain all of your wallets in the near future."


lol.

Bear with me, for what I'm gonna say probably won't make sense.

I see a lot of posts where people say "rotations are broken" and then I see a lot of replies where certain people say "no they're not, that's how they're meant to work". To be honest, I trust the people who say they aren't broken. I don't understand why euler rotations work the way they do, I just know that something is funky.

WOLF, good work on this plugin, and the tokamak plugin. Although I know c/c++, I only wish I had your determination/patience. Had I actually needed this DLL, I probably would've bought it. I've found a couple of work arounds so that so far, I can use free flight commands not only locally, but absolutely too (so roll object right doesn't add up on itself and spin around, it just goes to the specified angle and stays there).

I sympathise with your exhasperation. You spend time and effort figuring out why euler rotations are non-intuitive, you make a set of commands with extra features and then you release it to a dubious and scathing crowd.

-----

EDIT : While I'm thinking about this, do you have a digital camera? I remember IanM trying to explain euler rotation rules to someone and he used a pencil as an example. If you (or someone who understands it) could take pictures and indicate on the picture where people's understanding goes wrong, that thread (or section of your site) could be used as reference.

... and the rest is f-l-y
Magellan
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 15:24
WOLF: Perhaps you are confused. As far as I know, not only is BlueIDE free, it is also Open Source. Perhaps RobK's generousity will spread and you too will make your open source. Hehe, only kidding. It really is free/open source though. BlueGUI, on the other hand...

All this content are belong to me.
Philip
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 16:01 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 16:03
@Wolf

To make your plugin free is an act of great generosity. You, sir, are a prince amongst men (or wolves - your choice)! I am thoroughly impressed by this act and I think it should be applauded by every single person in the community. For my part, in the event that you were to nip on a transatlantic plane and attend the official UK DBPro Convention (which we hope may be happening), I should certainly stand you a few rounds of an alcoholic beverage of your choice in your honour.

Yes, everyone, the bear salutes the wolf.

I should also say that once my own game project is complete, I shall be making it open source. The entire commented source code will be published.

Philip

**EDIT: May I also suggest that other people reading this thread might want to also express their gratitude to Wolf via an appropriate "thank you" post? Its taking the time like this that makes this community such a fun and friendly place.

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P1.3ghz / 384 megs / GeForce MX 5200 128meg / WinXP home
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 17:04 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 17:06
Thank you for all of the kind replies.

@Philip
All the praise isn't necessary. Thank you though....
I won't be making any trips to the UK for the convention (although I'd love to). If you want to buy me a beer, send me a donation through my site and I'll properly drink the deposit

@Magellan
Oops! My bad. Sorry about the confusion of BlueIDE and BlueGUI. lol

@adr
If you want to easily see where everyone gets messed up, do the following:
-Load the sample program that comes with the download of EZrotate.
-Rotate globally on the Y and Z axis.
-Rotate globally on the X axis.
Notice that all of the Euler angles are changing to create the required rotation for true global. This is because of rotation order. You cant't simply increment the x rotation amount for global rotation when using Euler angles because a Y and Z rotation follows it. Anyway, it isn't worth the headache of trying to understand anymore. Just use the EZrotate dll and be done with it

@Spooky
Glad to hear your putting it to good use.

@ any mod:
If you can change the topic of this to:
"EZrotate ~ now free!"
I'd appreciate it....

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
spooky
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 18:17
Because I'm so impressed with this and I have doubts U6 will improve matters I have donated you some of my hard earned cash using the donate option on your website. Enough for a few drinks!

Boo!
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 18:28
thanks for making it free!!! this is really good stuff, only thing is that the download link on the contract is wrong, the correct link is:
http://www.ericksonline.com/EZRotate/EZRotate-1_00.zip
but you've got
http://www.ericksonline.com/EZRotate/\EZRotate\EZRotate-1_00.zip
which is a little strange
thanks again

In the beginning, the universe was created...
This made alot of people very angry and it has been widely regarded as a bad idea...
Visit http://redeye.dbspot.com
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 18:37 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 18:50
Thanks Spooky! Hopefully you'll start a trend.

I'm going to go fix that now Red-Eye....

*edit*
WOW! Spooky... I just checked my mail. You are too kind. When I do get my next tool complete (yet to be announced) you'll definately be get a copy for being so nice. Again, thank you. What that really does is help against the cost of my site, which helps to justify the expense to my wife

*edit again*
Strange Red-eye... it works for me. Are you using IE? I'm not sure what would cause the problem. Does anyone else have the problem?

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 19:40
i'm using mozilla 1.5, i followed the link from your homepage, which takes you to the contract, i click the link at the bottom and it says page cannot be found, i changed the url and it worked fine

In the beginning, the universe was created...
This made alot of people very angry and it has been widely regarded as a bad idea...
Visit http://redeye.dbspot.com
spooky
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 19:52
It's because you have used backslashes instead of forward slashes in the link.

IE = OK
Opera = OK
Netscape = Same problem as Mozilla

Boo!
bitechu
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 19:55
I sent ya 5.00. Thanks W0LF!

Asus A7N266-C/1.12MB PC2100DDR/AMD XP2100+/Asus Ti4600 128MB
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 20:16
Nice! Thanks bitechu....
Who says people aren't generous
Again, you will be due-ly compensated on any tool that I release in the future. Cheers!

I'll change the backslashes to forward slashes. You would think that would work on both

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
Rob K
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 20:43 Edited at: 9th Mar 2004 20:44
Okay, I'll accept that the rotations are working correctly from a technical point of view. Let me just correct myself then by saying that from a functional point of view, the way that Blitz rotations work is much more preferable.

When I rotate an object and try a rotation of an object around the Z axis, the object appears to rotate around the global Z axis, whereas in Blitz it appears to rotate around the "local" Z axis - assuming that my understanding is at fault - what is actually happening? and what would I need to do in DBPro in order to make an object rotate around its "local" Z axis?

Its very kind of you to make the plugin free though, with your knowledge of this kind of maths you could easily write a plugin that would sell though, and I'd be happy to buy.


BlueGUI-Windows UI Plugin
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 9th Mar 2004 20:59
If that is how Blitz works, it does not use Euler angles.

Quote: "with your knowledge of this kind of maths you could easily write a plugin that would sell though, and I'd be happy to buy."

Well, it IS written. Is there other functionality that you are looking for?
I originaly put a price of $5 on this plug-in because I know the struggles that people have had with this. I've had them too. I know I would have payed $5 in a heartbeat for this to save myself the troubles. After I thought about it more though, I would rather have this available to everyone and just kill the problem once and for all rather than make a couple dollars. I figure that some people that have gone down this road and understand the difficulty would appreciate it enough to send a couple bucks my way.
Believe it or not, a couple have!
So, if it is something that you would have purchased, think of it as you have an UNLIMITED demo that you can pay whatever price that you think it is worth through my donation button

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
DarkSin
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 06:36 Edited at: 10th Mar 2004 07:17
Very Nice! Keep up the good work!

EDIT: Wow... I just downloaded it and am already incorperating it into my sim... hmm to bad im dirt poor.. otherwise id donate... guess ill have to wait till I get some cash .

[url=www.bloodnest.net][/url]

Philip
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 14:32
RobK, if you want to rotate around the object's local Z axis surely you just one of the freeflight commands? Ok the information fedback by the engine via the object angle commands then becomes complete crap but it can be done.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P1.3ghz / 384 megs / GeForce MX 5200 128meg / WinXP home
Philip
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 14:42 Edited at: 10th Mar 2004 14:44
Wolf, whereas I would not have paid for EZrotate had it not been free, I've just PenPal'd you some money as well as I think your act of generosity to the whole community in making EZrotate free deserves some reward. Who says nice things don't happen when one performs nice deeds?

In the same vein, if RobK is at the official UK DBPro Convention this year I am intending to stand him a round of the yeoman of the bar's finest in thanks for his excellent BlueIDE.

Philip

What do you mean, bears aren't supposed to wear hats and a tie? P1.3ghz / 384 megs / GeForce MX 5200 128meg / WinXP home
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 15:26
Thanks Philip!
I am really taken by the generosity a few of you have shown.
I am already starting to work on my next tool. It has to do directly with the Tokamak physics wrapper. All I'm going to say at this point is that it will be sweet. To those of you that have donated some of your hard earned cash, I won't forget it.

Thank you everyone for the kind replies.

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
Rob K
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 18:32
Hi Wolf - sent you a little thank-you


BlueGUI-Windows UI Plugin
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 18:35
Thanks Rob
I've also ordered BlueGUI
I'm looking forward to using it for my next tool.

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
jrowe
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 20:40 Edited at: 10th Mar 2004 20:46
Downloading now. Thanks WOLF looks like a very useful plugin .

Edit- I would make a donation, but dont have paypal


For Fathers and Sons who enjoy wholy spirits.

http://www.tinnedhead.tk
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 10th Mar 2004 20:55
No problems. I am glad so many people are getting good use out of this.

You don't need to be a member of Paypal to use it. All you need is a credit card

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
Dave J
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 03:32
Great work! Nice to see people contributing great and useful plugins to the community. Also, here's the keyword file to make syntax highlighting work (for those that are too lazy to make it themselves ):



Save it to any INI file and place it in your: "\Dark Basic Professional\Editor\Keywords" directory. You'll also need to place the included "EZrotate command ref.htm" file in the "\Dark Basic Professional\Help\commands" directory to get the F1 key to bring up the reference page.

Of course, all that isn't essential, it's just in case you want syntax highlighting to work on the EZrotate commands like me.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 05:37
Thanks....

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
DARKGuy
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 06:37
Hey! that dll looks very useful! and man...releasing it for free...that was a dream that came true!!!, you're VERY kind

You know, perhaps it can solve my angles problem (I've created 3 posts (I believe) with the same problem *lol*), but the DLL is DBPro, isn't it?...is there any way to use it on DBC Enhanced?, or to convert the DLL to be used with it?.

Thanks

Current Projects: F-16 Gold Wings
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 14th Mar 2004 14:57
You could try it with DBC enhanced. I never upgraded my DBC to enhanced so there is NO WAY I could test it. I'm not sure of the difference between using DLL's with the DBPro and DBC.

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
DARKGuy
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Posted: 15th Mar 2004 07:11
me too....I tried to convert the code to DBC but it didn't worked...if someone could translate it I would be VERY glad because some friends on the Gamedev forums are able to help me with my F-16 flight sim problem but they say things about "matrix rotations" and "...if you can get access to that matrix..." and things like that, so if someonce could translate it to DBC I would give credits & special thanks to WOLF and he who translate it it's very useful that DLL

Current Projects: F-16 Gold Wings
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th Mar 2004 20:12
Does Enhanced have the load dll commands. If so you could just load the dll and then use the call commands to access EZrotate.

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
DARKGuy
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Posted: 15th Mar 2004 21:40
that's what I tried...but it says something about unable to call the DLL function ot something like that...I'll see if I can put the code here (don't have the time) so you'll see what happens

Ron Erickson
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Posted: 15th Mar 2004 21:46
If there is something that I can do to make it available to classic, I will. I just can't test anything because I don't have it. I'm not about to purchase it either

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
andrew11
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 00:02 Edited at: 16th Mar 2004 01:55
Your plugin is great. I was always confused by rotation, but now Im not!

Im trying to make a given point rotate around another given point. Could I use EZRotates matrix math to do this? If so, how?

Thanks

[Edit] Never Mind - Figured it out!



Again, Great Job!!

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
DARKGuy
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 01:42
Don't worry wolf, I'll test it for you

anyway here's my DBC code (it gets the error in "call dll 1,"EZro_Set()",aa1#,aa2#,aa3#")


andrew11
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 01:47
Take out the () in EZRo_Set().

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
Ron Erickson
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Posted: 16th Mar 2004 02:43
I see you found the other topic Andrew

Your reply should fix the DBC problem. Let me know if it works.

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
DARKGuy
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 00:11
DARKGuy
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 14:59
hmmm Nothing it always says: "The DLL call failed to execute".

I've tried now to check if the DLL call exists and I've put it with and without the "(" and ")"....I'm confused...anyway here's the code.

Notice that this part


checks if the DLL call exists...doesn't work, always return 0

Here's the complete code:


Ron Erickson
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 15:25 Edited at: 17th Mar 2004 15:26
Any calls to the dll where you are returning a value need the ()'s with the paramaters listed inside. If you make a call to the dll that does NOT return a value then you leave the ()'s.
All DB commands work exactly the same way.

Hoooowwwwllll!!!!
DARKGuy
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Posted: 17th Mar 2004 20:10
I tried

if dll call exist(1,"EZro_Set()")
gosub ttt1
else
gosub ttt2
endif

and

if dll call exist(1,"EZro_Set")
gosub ttt1
else
gosub ttt2
endif

it always return 0

andrew11
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Posted: 18th Mar 2004 00:40 Edited at: 18th Mar 2004 00:59
That might not really be the name of the function within the DLL. When you compile a DLL, the names are mangled. You either have to find and use the mangled names, or create a string table, which he did to let it work in DBP without Call DLL.

I got them all. They *should* work.


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
DARKGuy
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Posted: 18th Mar 2004 15:05
Cyberflame
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 16:30
Gah! Im the n00b whose got to ask the question... Whats an eruler, and what was ther problem with rotaion before. Whtas global rotation, and whats local rotation?

DANGIT NEO, YOU CHANGED THE CODE AND NOW THE MATRIX WONT TEXTURE RIGHT.
andrew11
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Posted: 21st Mar 2004 17:27
Im not an expert on this, and I learned all of this stuff from EZRotate, AFAIK, Euler rotation is Rotation where one angle changes another angle and so on. Rotation on the X Axis is different depending on the Z rotation and Y Rotation. DBP does one rotation (X), then another (Y), then Another (Z). So basically it leads to confusing rotation that leads people to believe its a bug, but in reality its not. What EZRotate does, is calculate Euler values that DBP uses from normal rotation. For example, if your object is rotated on the Z Axis, YRotation would be on the X Axis in Euler. In EZRotate it would rotate it on the Objects Y Axis (Local) or the worlds Y Axis (Global), no matter other rotation.

"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon

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