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Geek Culture / What Does It Takes To Be A Games Designer

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 21:25
This is my honest question.

I've been reading on 'Games Design: Theory & Practise' by Richard Rouse III ... gotta say i quite like the book, because he detailed in to every precise inch of all the main difference between a games programmer, a games modeller, a games graphic designer, a level designer, and of course, the main man himself (other than the Boss) ... the Games Designer. And the differences are big... after I read the book, now only I know that some fine prestigious Games Designers in this world doesn't even know how to code or design a model!

So what do u guyz think of what it takes? I'm just asking for opinions, no intention for flames or anything. And my questions goes not about being a Games Designer for personal games at home or to share with friends, but goes DIRECTLY about asking towards "working in a games company as a Games Designer."

This question is open to anybody, from professionals to average individuals! Opinions is mostly appreciated, discussion is waaaay cooool, but please no other than that!
(i'm trying my best to convey my msg: no flames pleaseeee!)


In other words, lets just make the question like this:

"If I wanted to become a Games Designer in a games company, what does it takes?"
Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
Manic
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:28
imagination
an ability to draw
knowledge of what makes a game
knowlegge of what makes a GOOD game (these are two very different things)
luck
originality
luck
presentational abilitys
a bit more luck

the thing is, the designers you speak of were in the industry before it was so cut-throat. so they didn't need to prove themselves to CEO's and things.

if you can come up with a truely orginal concept and can present it to the right people, you could get a foot in the door, but it is one hell of a tough industry to get into.

I don't have a sig, live with it.
actarus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:29
Yup...just needs a bit more luck though.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:41
So when a person have this one cool & original concept, whats the next step?

What does he needs to do/to have, to present to the right people?

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
Mirthin
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:43
People say in the industry - "there's no such thing as a game developer," referring to the type that oversees and directs the whole thing.

Then what the hell are people like Hideo Kojima, Shigeru Myamoto, Yu Suzuki, Peter Molyneux, Richard Garriot, John Romero...doing?

Who wants cake? I've got a little slice of hell for everyone.
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:44
Hideo Kojima ... my idol .....

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
actarus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:46
héhé good to see some French names among those 'gods'

Basically,if you can get a demo done...A complete one,you could try proposing it to the different software/shareware companies and get a deal for sales.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
actarus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:46
And hope they don't steal the main idea.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Mirthin
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:49
I'm still foggy on the term 'game designer.'

Mr Suzuki called himself "Director."

I like that title, more specific and not too bossy

Who wants cake? I've got a little slice of hell for everyone.
actarus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:52
yup.

I wonder what the creator of 'Another World' aka on the consoles as Out of This World, called himself...Must've been a long run.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:53
Quote from the book:

"A game designer determines what's the nature of the gameplay, which is by creating the game's design."

"Indeed, many game designers perform a wide variety of task on a project, but their central concern should always be the game design and the gameplay."

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
Mirthin
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:55
I'd like to specialise in animation and CG direction. I suppose, that may lead into this so-called 'game developer' title. Let's just go with the flow.

Who wants cake? I've got a little slice of hell for everyone.
actarus
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:58
It's good to have experience in both prog and arts so you can give advice according to the mainstream of the game/engine.

I guess being able to recognize good music and having basically played the best games wouldn't be hurtful too.

I guess no matter what you know,most of us feel just fine calling themselves game-devloppers. lol

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 1st Dec 2002 23:58
(writing down ...) Animation and CG aspect.

So that means if a demo (of the original concept) to be done, is it suppose to be the game demo or just the anmation demo?

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 00:00
(continue writing...) progs, arts , music.

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 00:31
I have also read that book, it's really great =) It's thanks to it that I use DB today as 1.06 comes as a demo on the companion CD =) The funny thing when I read that book was that I had figured out most of what he writes myself and agrees to most of it (not all). I learned how to write a design document from that book but I took the design to a higher level =)

To become a good game designer you must be like me =) I can tell what's good and what's bad about games I play. I can find things that I would do different and think out solutions to problems I find. I also have tons of unique game ideas from gameplay to characters and story. You will never make it by making clones. Stealing ideas is good as long as you don't copy them.

You also need to know some about everything. I can't program in C myself but I can program in DB. I'm no 3D wizard but I can make gamemodels. I'm no texture artist but I know a few tricks. I can't make stunning 2D but I can make GUIs and logos. I can't compose music but I can tell what's good and what's bad and what I want more of and what I want less of. This means I can both design a game and lead a developement team. Thanks to DB I can also be the sole programmer unless some dlls etc are needed.

Today it's almost impossible to write a design document and go to a publisher and get money to develope a game. They get tons of design documents already and there are already many good developement studios and companies. The best thing to do is to make sure your game is made before you talk to a publisher. There are 2 ways, either you create your own team (as leader or as partners) or you find one willing to accept you as the designer. I say creating your own team is a lot easier as an existing team probably have one or two already. There is loads of tallent here and in other places that do this as a hobby with a dream of working for money.

DigAw.com
Game in developement: The Magic Land
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 00:57
"So when a person have this one cool & original concept, whats the next step?

What does he needs to do/to have, to present to the right people?"

Nobody will take your idea. That's cut and dry eh? You simply cannot walk into a respected game company and say
"Here's a fun idea. It's marketable, it's feasable, I have previews of engines and graphics, when do we get started."
That's the same as saying "here's what I want, do it for me"

First, start MUCH smaller (including going to college first). Then, in the big world, everyone starts out freelancing. Get used to it, there really is no way around it. Game companies really want to see finished work. Get a title under your belt. Get two. Know the business, understand that technology moves fast. Then apply for the company. Hopefully they'll hire you. Work there for about a year, get known, move up a bit. Find out what the company likes to do. Do THEIR work, not yours.

Then, once you've made a name for yourself, pitch the right people the idea. Let it go from there.

Most of this is from a yearly magazine titled "Gaming Careers." And ya know what, it's damn good advice.
AlecM
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 00:59
Ideas arent worth squat in this industry unless you can document and prove them correctly in the right format.

Goto http://www.shellshockede.com
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 05:33
Thanks guyz! I'm enjoying this topic!
=)

1. Dead Glory - Thankz for the idea & sharing ur experience!
2. Quoth - Thankz for the step-by-step info & recommending the magazine!
3. Frogger - Thankz for the tip!

Keep'em coming guyz! =)

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
<img src="http://www.planetps2.com/metalgear/images/Series/msx/MetalGear2SolidSnake/mglogo.gif">
Megaman X
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 07:13
Nice topic

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
-- Rogue
indi
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 07:54
a computer, some creativity, lots of patience and determination

Solidz Snake
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 08:02
Thankz Rogue! =)

Thankz Indi! (while jotting down Indi's words of wisdom..)
=)

Snake? What happened?
Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell
gbuilder
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 08:48
Determination, know-how and an interesting idea.

gbuilder

AMD900mhz, 256mb Ram, 64mb GForce2 MX400 Graphics card, Windows 98se.
Van B
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 13:43
A designer would have to make concept sketches, storyboards, AI fundamentals, some level design/scripting etc. The best designers are ex-programmers, look a Molyneux, an excellent programmer in his own right, you think he walks upto his coders and makes demands! - he's probably more likely to pseudo code it himself. Trust me, a game designer who did'nt know the basics of all areas would'nt get very far.

Luckily for us, DB lets us learn everything we need to know. I mean, a designer might find himself coding in a scripting language and designing levels, that's where DB can really help.

Plus showing up for an interview with a fully playable demo that you made in a few days would impress the hell outta them.


Van-B
actarus
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 14:06
-Plus showing up for an interview with a fully playable demo that you made in a few days would impress the hell outta them

Yup unless they're very narrow minded.

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 15:48
One of the best things about beeing the lead programmer at the same time as the game designer means that you have perfect control over things. That way you can make the game work exactly as you want and not try making a programmer understand how you want it to work.

Programmers and artists don't communicate well, programmers rather work on the engine then fixing bugs in the artists' tools. Artists doesn't know what limits the engine have and what's hard to do. Beeing a good leader/designer you need understanding of both areas.

DigAw.com
Game in developement: The Magic Land
Megaman X
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 15:48
Work group, an original idea and luck wont hurt anyone Luck is actually a thing I don't have, the rest be worked out

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
-- Rogue
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 15:49
You don't need luck if you have skill and know how to use and present it.

DigAw.com
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Mirthin
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 17:50
I hear there are 2 ways...

Get into a company and wait about 10 years, working very hard.

OR

Found your own company, working very hard.

Who wants cake? I've got a little slice of hell for everyone.
Manic
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 18:15
mirthin - "Then what the hell are people like [...] John Romero...doing?"

yeah what is he doing? lol, he got fired out of his own company

I don't have a sig, live with it.
Megaman X
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 18:28
Dead Glory kinda of it Indeed skill and other talents are crucials. But, there are somes games which got published and they do not deserve it. I've played many other demos really good and peoples cannot find a publisher for it :S A bit of luck is really needed sometimes

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
-- Rogue
Megaman X
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 18:29
Oh yeah, contact with the right persons are also really good. This not only for game business but everything else as getting a job, a better place in a stadium or an icecream with more flavours Keep contact with peoples may help u in the future...

I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it.
-- Rogue
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 19:52
Hmmm... what makes a good designer?
The aspect here as at most places is quite a varied bag of beans.

Think of them as the manager of a Football team, you gotta have good imagination and creativity, you've gotta know roughly how it can be implimented, you've gotta have good communication skills.

It is all oki to have a wing'n'a'prayer idea ... but you have to have a very deep imagination which you can take the simplest of ideas, unreveal it like an orange and break it up into the segmants that are usuable by the other members.

It is actually more important however to understand howto explain something TO the Artists and Coders than it is to know roughly how it is possible.

As part of my job it is paramount to understand alot of aspects of 3D Programming as well as the artwork ... because if there is a new tool required, then we gotta work fast so little time is wasted.

People who are solo workers, or never speak up about anything - you'll have to work on that to become more team like, the best games have come from a great working team who understand each other.

What does happen in each company is oftenly different, because the work ethic here is more "don't over work just get it done right" ... whereas at Core it was more "we work until we drop"
which i've found is actually a very big difference between the UK and US companies, because alot of the companies here do have a more laid back attitude to games development. Whereas UK companies will oftenly work as hard as they can to get the games out ASAP.

There are ofcourse exceptions to these rules... ID Software and Rare Ltd are good examples.

The thing about working within the industry that a book can't explain is the dedication required to your FIELD of work. Yes you'll be expected to know about the others, but you'll never be expect as an artist say to pickup a keyboard and code... Knowing the techniques is what you require not actual skill in the subject.

Yes that is probably what oftenly seperates the Coders from the 3D Artists and 2D Artists and Designers and Character Developers etc...
There is a suprisingly ENOURMOUS different between a level engineer and a game modeler - I mean most people can do both, but a level engineer requires to think of bigger pictures and be able to run throu a world in thier heads, whereas game modelers need to be able to focus on the smallest of details.
These trains of thought are not easily compatible

I hope that is all helpful

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Dec 2002 19:53
lol just incase... the simple point here is
- Communication
- Area Specialization

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2002 01:25
Rogue:
Well, many games fail because they run out of time/money or because the game wasn't properly planned/lead. Many lousy games that are developed probably only existed as a fat design document with lots of scetches and story boards. And many games based on famous movies etc often turn out really bad. They will sell anyway so why make it good?

DigAw.com
Game in developement: The Magic Land
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2002 01:34
Yepp, as Vegeta says as a good team is built up of lots of specialiced members that understands their own area like their own pockets.

The one in charge must know what to give to who and when. It's also imortant to get that person to fully understand what you want. Taking a course in group psycology is good for any leader. A team also works better if they can gather for work every day and talk with and inspire each other. This is really hard for really smal game companies so fast internet for everybody is a good start.

DigAw.com
Game in developement: The Magic Land
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2002 21:32
Woooooooooo ... i really love this topic ...

Hard facts , examples , testimonials , issues , positive discussions ...

This is what i loved about u guyz (especially when there are alot of u) : sharing ur opinions , thoughts & experience!

Keep it rolling guyz!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

MikeS
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Posted: 3rd Dec 2002 23:34
I'm no professional game designer ,but if you really want to be a game maker you need "PERSITANCE" I write that big because if you need a large amount of it.

Also to those of you that are programmers out there ,another thing to becoming a game designer is to practice,practice ,and some more practice.

Gaming takes time ,and money(for the software and etc.)
So you wanna know what it takes? Here it is.

I love games
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Dec 2002 03:19
Or a Licence to a box office smash... that'll help to cause you can make it as piss poor as you like.

Slap the nametag on it you'll sell thousands!
Sad fact really - don't ya'll thank god there are people who actually give a damn about making outstanding games rather than money

[shameless plug]
C&C General Public Beta comming soon the Fileplanet
[/shameless plug]

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Mirthin
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Posted: 4th Dec 2002 20:25
Manic - You'll find that many great minds were ostracised in some way.

Richard Garriot sold his Ultima rights to EA - Now he can't do anything with that FS.

Peter Molyneux sold Bullfrog to EA - And left to form Lionhead Studios.

EA - Stay away!

Who wants cake? I've got a little slice of hell for everyone.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Dec 2002 00:53
We are EA... Resistance is Futile!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Digital Awakening
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I wanna make my own games without someone bossing me around or puting deadlines on my games. I make my games the way I want and hopefully there's a publisher that wants to publish them. I'm not a pure artist that wanna make games for myself I wanna make something others like enough to spend their money on while I'm having lots of fun. That's the biggest challenge, not having fun but making and selling entertainment. I wanna live making my own games. What fun is there to make a game that nobody but I play? Nothing is more amazing then your own fans =)

DigAw.com
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Dec 2002 05:37
Well give it about 10years Dead, when you're as big and famous as Peter Moylonex (someone correct that i still can't remember lol) or Sid Meir - then you can do what you like

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 6th Dec 2002 14:59
Vegeta:
Nah I just do what I like and make 2 games/year with only a few teammembers (hired or employed) and I don't mind earning 5000 USD/year (after tax). Let's say I earn $5/unit that means 500 units sold for every game. That shouldn't be too hard. As long as it's fun =)

DigAw.com
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Dec 2002 19:22
Easier said than done unfortunately...
You still need marketing and to actually produce games worthy of the money.
Don't get me wrong, CCA was great. But you hardly have people beating down your door for it.

With the right PR you can get that audiance you require to actually sell well.
I mean yeah as long as your having fun the profit doesn't matter, but take a good look at Westwood
we've released a single title this entire year, thats with around 250guys ... its not really the quantity but quality of the product.

And it probably doesn't hurt that Fileplanet advertises it, there were quite substantical downloads lol and really alot of hype from games mags.

If your just out for fun then how your goin' is fine, but until you get to the level of those guys if you wanna earn enough to put food on the table you gotta do what your told for a good few years. Or create something truely unique and outstanding before hand.



Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 6th Dec 2002 21:46
Hehe, CCA was a rush project on 29 days and made only to win DBP and my first project ever in DB =) Have you seen TML? Go to my site and check out the early shots. It will actually be put on a CD with some other games and sold =) Well no big profit there.

CCA2 that I will work on next will be tons better then CCA but still not a full size game. And I will also get paid 555USD duing the first 9 month next year because I'm starting a company.

DigAw.com
Game in developement: The Magic Land
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Dec 2002 01:46
Yeah i know it was rushed, but the for the size you worked on roughly the same time limit most of us do. I've seen TML and i dunno isn't really anything graphically specialy, which is why you'd release a screenshot to show new features of graphical portions. I'll have to play it to give a real opinion on it.

Not saying its bad, but even if its the level of Quake3 or something without having decent PR you might as well go outside to the drain and throw your money down there
Kiddies spend thier money on things they THINK they want, not what is actually good. So as long as you can fool everyone in to believing you're game is outstanting prior any demo then you've got your market set.

Hehee... Kinda looking forward to publishing a few DBpro titles Q2 2003 (^_^) some very good PR stuff will be going around.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Digital Awakening
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Posted: 7th Dec 2002 09:02
Yeah, I know. I have some ideas about PR. TML is one of those. TML will be something different but still a rushed project.

DigAw.com
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david
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Posted: 7th Dec 2002 16:24
Sorry if you think I'm stealing your post, but I have nearly the same question. I am 14 years old and I have been programming DB and DBPro for about 2 years. I know a lot about PC hardware and I built my own PC when I was 13. I know a bit of Visual Basic and I have started a tiny bit of C/C++ programming, so I am not a stereotypical, naive young boy who has always wanted to "make games". Programminng is the main aspect of game development I am interested in, and yes, I am 14.

I live in England and am in year 9 at school, so I am just about to make my choices for GCSE. I would like to know if anyone has suggestions for subjects to take at GCSE/A-level/University, for a career in programming (hopefully games). For GCSE, the main subjects I am thinking of taking for game programming (as well as the ones that are not optional) are IT, maths, physics and maybe also business studies.

Does anyone have suggestions, maybe from past experience?
Solidz Snake
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Years of Service
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Joined: 23rd Oct 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 7th Dec 2002 17:52
Ack! U're stealing my post!!!

(aiming David's head with a tactical rocket launcher , at point blank range!)

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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