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Geek Culture / A in depth discussion about fate

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:20
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What you just said means that I am NEO the One. So other peoples decisions have no meaning in the world? I think what the topic is about, is that the world is like a video playing from beginning to end. What I am saying is that the video makes no decisions. Once you have a 50/50 decision the world can go in a different direction, and no longer be a video. So 1 million people each year, passing through two doors with a 50/50 chance of taking either door will effect the whole world. I don't think that I have to be the One who changes the world.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:38 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 22:40
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Quote: "What you just said means that I am NEO the One. So other peoples decisions have no meaning in the world?"


You are misunderstanding what Im saying. Im saying that other people will not think in the same manner as you and will come to thier disision in a different way; what ever that way is its not random, whatever they will decide will be thier disicion. Yes, peoples decisions matter in the world; in fact thier desicions are apart of fate and may infact influence others (and being influcned is those people's fate).

Quote: "that the world is like a video playing from beginning to end"


Pretty much; whats going to happen will happen. But of course thats no excuse to not do anything . But what ever you decide to do is your fate.


Quote: "Once you have a 50/50 decision the world can go in a different direction, and no longer be a video."


What is your facination with this 50/50 dicision? What ever your final dicision will be is what you are fated to decide. The same goes for 25/75 desisions or anyother desicion; what you are going to choose is what you will choose.

Quote: "I don't think that I have to be the One who changes the world."


Ok, id like to clarify that there is no "One". And if there even was one, what ever he is fated to do is what he will do. He is not "Changing the world" or changing the Universe; he mearly exists in it and is affected by cause and effect.

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Killswitch
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:44
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Here's something interesting I thought of:

If the big bang is real (which I beilve, if it isn't how else did the universe come into being?) then we are expanding outwards into nothing. At the moment the universe will continue to expand for as long as we can tell, but at one point the universe will become so large that gravity reverses (I can't remeber exatcly how this happens - its something to do with matter pushing the universe outwards and anti matter trying to pull it back in) and everything comes flying backwards, causing the 'big crunch'. Everything in the universe is then compressed into a single point again, and it will cause another big bang - so the universe loops.

There is no 'fate' as such, just a loop with no exit.

~I see one problem with your reasoning: The fact is that is a chicken~
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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 22:47
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how did the looping start?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 23:23
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All this 50/50 discussion brings me back to my original point, that you CAN'T say we will choose the same thing if it were to happen again, because we CAN'T live twice. So fate is just a theory, based on speculation, that can never be proven.

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Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 23:23 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 23:24
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Quote: " Jimmy the big bang did exist. Scientists have proved it. "


I'm sorry but that's simply one of the stupidest things I've ever read. It's nothing but a theory, and a good deal of modern evidence points against it-- the matter simply isn't moving in the right direction or at the right speed to fit their estimates and calculations.

Quote: "which I beilve, if it isn't how else did the universe come into being?"


This is the problem these days. People think they're being raised free from religious constraints-- they're really just being raised religious humanists and they don't even know it.


I will also add that actually, things wouldn't go the same. I recently found out that apparently scientists cannot predict or explain things that happen in the brain-- something to do with Quantum Mechanics. Please read here:

http://www.cneuroscience.org/Topics/Will/Quantum_Free_Will.htm

Yes, it's a Christian site, and some people will instantly disregard it because of that, but this view is actually becoming more and more mainstream. It just can't be predicted.

Read here too:

http://www.dhushara.com/book/brainp/Chaoq.htm

The major quote--
Quote: "Chaotic dynamical systems are also classically unpredictable. Although they can be simulated over short time scales, and sometimes more rapidly than the original process (rapid simulations), sensitive dependence will ultimately cause a divergence between simulation and reality. Consequently it is very likely that biological nervous systems have found alternatives to conventional computation which do not involve temporal impasse."


So apparently things wouldn't go the same-- or maybe they would, but we have no scientific evidence or proof of it . In fact, simulations all being innacurate over the long term just goes the show that it probaly wouldn't happen the same way.

Interesting, eh ?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 23:30
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And the Darkness Moose strikes again.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 23:38
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While the big bang is just a theory, you can't have something exist (the univerese) out of nothing...

Or if the universe was never created, and has always existed since eternity, I guess you can say that the universe starts infinity years ago. But then that would mean time is a dimension independent of the universe...

my head hurts

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 4th Jun 2004 23:59 Edited at: 4th Jun 2004 23:59
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Quote: "What is your facination with this 50/50 dicision? What ever your final dicision will be is what you are fated to decide. The same goes for 25/75 desisions or anyother desicion; what you are going to choose is what you will choose.
"


A 50/50 decision can go either way, that's why it's important. If you say that I am fated to pick a certain way then you are using no facts to base that comment on. You are merely saying I am fated to do that, but you have no proof of that fact. It is a none argument, argument.

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 00:54
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Er, so can a 25/75 decision. When it comes down to it, I think chance has very little to do with it. It's cause, effect, and most importantly you.

Jimmy-> ph33r m3

Abomb-> Actually things do come from nothing or the big bang theory woudln't work. It relies on, er, quantum reactions-- matter particles-- something along those lines that has no cause. Neophyte could explain it better. And along those same lines, creation is every bit as possible.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 01:18
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Actually a 25/75 decision can only go either way due to intelligence. It cant go either way if it is atoms colliding, and the argument depends on all things being born from the big bang, that means that 25/75 events are vidio taped, but 50/50 events are the only things that can alter the universe.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 01:25
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Quote: "If you say that I am fated to pick a certain way then you are using no facts to base that comment on. You are merely saying I am fated to do that, but you have no proof of that fact."


The proof of "fate" lies in ALL events prior to your "choice". This list of events is far to large to list, but the significant ones are perhaps based on your attitude, what you see, your thought process.

But an indirect proof of fate is the fact that everything is made up of atoms. Atom themselves are subject to cause and effect as per Newtons Third Law of physics ("For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."). If Atoms are subject to cause and effect, then molecules are subject to cause and effect, then cells are affected by cause and effect, as well as Living Organisms, which must mean the human mind is subject to the causes and effects of the universe.

But of course this theory depends that the universe has a Prime Cause (Big Bang, God or anyother diety, etc). But, if a Prime Cause does exist, it means that cause and effect could only lead to 1 set of outcomes (fate). Since The Mind is a puppet to cause and effect (through atoms) there must be only one set of outcomes and the "choices" you make are predetermind right from the very beggining of the universe.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 01:30
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Quote: "50/50 events are the only things that can alter the universe"


50/50 is a statistic of possible expected outcomes: it really has little bearings on fate and how people choose things other then the amount of choices the person has.

a decision that involves two choices (50/50) does not change the universe. Eventually, you would choose one over the other, based on my post from above.

the exact same thing applies when you have 100 choices. Eventually, you would choose one over the others. That choice is your "fate".

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 01:35 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 01:36
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TheABomb - How do you know nothing is truely random? You are just guessing that from what your brain tells you is logically correct. What if reality isn't logical, what if some things are truely random and don't rely on space or time to determine how they act? This is the underlying arguement about fate, if you could wind back time, how do you know everything would be the same?

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 01:52
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Quote: "But of course this theory depends that the universe has a Prime Cause (Big Bang, God or anyother diety, etc). But, if a Prime Cause does exist, it means that cause and effect could only lead to 1 set of outcomes (fate). Since The Mind is a puppet to cause and effect (through atoms)"


Nope. You obviously didn't read my post. The mind is surprisingly "random"-- cause and effect are the illusion!

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 01:54
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This talk is just all about opinion. One person says that nothing is random, another person says that things are random. One person says that there is a God, another person says that there isn't a God. First of all, I am not going to believe things without proof. There is no proof of God, so it is just an opinion. The random event thing has no information to back it up. It's not yet possible to measure all the events happening around us, and sometimes both events of a 50/50 situation can happen, like with light choosing a direction, it will actually go through both doors if it has a 50/50 choice. Atoms with a 50/50 choice collide, and create energy. These are examples, but not all of the particles in the universe can be tested.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 02:07
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Quote: "Nope. You obviously didn't read my post. The mind is surprisingly "random"-- cause and effect are the illusion!"


Those articles really didn't prove that the mind is "true randomness" (not determined by space in time). Perhaps it is random in the sense the we as humans cannot predict its every outcome.

Can you explain how cause and effect could be illusions?

Quote: "like with light choosing a direction, it will actually go through both doors if it has a 50/50 choice."


This has to do with the laws of physics and not weather light chooses to go through doors.

And again 50/50 is a statement of probability, not the actual outsome.

Quote: "Atoms with a 50/50 choice collide, and create energy."


Again, the laws of physics dictate how the atoms will collide. Btw, you are using the word "Choice" which is rather confusing since atoms and light are only "controlled" by the laws of physics.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 02:11 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 02:11
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Quote: "How do you know nothing is truely random? You are just guessing that from what your brain tells you is logically correct. What if reality isn't logical, what if some things are truely random and don't rely on space or time to determine how they act? This is the underlying arguement about fate, if you could wind back time, how do you know everything would be the same?"


Actually, hamish, you have the most valid counter-example to my theory. If somethings are independent of space and time "fate" would be dissproven (however, freewill being an illusion would still hold true).

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 02:22
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Maybe light does make choices, how much do you know about light? Or how much do you know about photons? Do you know that photons that are faced with two doors make different decisions each time? There are 3 choices....

1/ The photon can go through the top door.

2/ The photon can go through the botom door.

3/ The photon can go through both doors, even though it is a single photon.

These sound like decisions to me. Do you know the results of these tests?

1/ The photon goes through the top door if there is someone in the top room.

2/ The photon goes through the bottom door if there is someone in the bottom room.

3/ The photon goes through both doors, if there is someone in both rooms.

Now I have showed my knowledge of physics, now tell me if you already knew that.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 02:35 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 02:37
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Quote: "These sound like decisions to me. Do you know the results of these tests?"


Quote: "1/ The photon goes through the top door if there is someone in the top room.

2/ The photon goes through the bottom door if there is someone in the bottom room.

3/ The photon goes through both doors, if there is someone in both rooms."




yep, already heard of that. In fact I had a talk with a photon the other day; it claimed it made a decisions only because it wanted to be with his other photon friends.

Pincho, a Photon only reacts with a certain outcome in accordance to the laws of physics.

The amount of possible outcomes is only related with the laws, and the fact that there are three possiblities doesn't mean that the photon made a "decision"

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 02:58
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Well if the photon didn't make a decision, you need to explain to me how the photons know that there is someone in each room before it gets there. How does it know?

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 03:19
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Quote: "Well if the photon didn't make a decision, you need to explain to me how the photons know that there is someone in each room before it gets there. How does it know?"


Wait, do you mean if a person is in a room it goes there? or something else?

If its the former, I think you are misunderstanding the tests that were done.

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Cookyzue
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 03:30 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 03:33
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if that was true then the past, present and future would have to be happening at the same time or if each person on the world was in their own dimension only thinking and believing that thier were other people, well i can't really explain it, so i dont know.

edit: i also think it is Impossible to change fate. Even if you think of it, and do something you didnt think you would, how do you know that wasn't all supposed to happen anyway?


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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 04:58
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Quote: "Wait, do you mean if a person is in a room it goes there? or something else?

If its the former, I think you are misunderstanding the tests that were done.
"


Yeah, the tests show that light travels to a point that is to be viewed by an observer. The tests are described in the book called Scrodinger's Kittens. Light seems to make an intelligent estimation of its path. Although it might not be intelligent, it still fits my 50/50 rule. If lots of particles obey 50/50 rules then it makes the chances of a random universe more, and more likely, because at some microscopic point you have an absolute random decision.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 05:39 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 05:40
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ah yes, I remember that now. The photons went in the hole only when there was an observer.

I think this has more to do with Quantam Physics (which is a field Humans barely understand) then photons "making an intellegent choice".

What ever the result is, it is not random; its an adherance to physical laws (whether we know HOW those laws are applied or not).

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HZence
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 05:41 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 05:45
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Quote: "Jimmy the big bang did exist. Scientists have proved it. "


Quote: "I'm sorry but that's simply one of the stupidest things I've ever read. It's nothing but a theory, and a good deal of modern evidence points against it-- the matter simply isn't moving in the right direction or at the right speed to fit their estimates and calculations."


Took the words right out of my mouth. However, you may note that there is "supposedly" just as much evidence for it as there is against it.

It's all a matter of what you want to believe, really.

Quote: "Actually things do come from nothing or the big bang theory woudln't work."


I have to disagree. Now keep in mind I don't necessarily agree with the big bang theory, however it does state that there has been the same amount of mass in the universe throughout time (correct me if I'm wrong) -- in the beginning, it was all merely condensed. It didn't "come from nothing."


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Jimmy
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 06:32
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This is the universe:

Boing.

It was a boing. Not a bang.

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 06:39
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My belief: Everyone is living in their own universe. Have you ever heard of that theory of alternate universes? It's like at any time there is a possibility, an alternate universe is spawned to follow the results of that possibility. Maybe it is the same with humans, except I believe it to be a little different.

I am living in my own universe, and when I die, that universe collapses and is destroyed. But there will always be an infinite amount of other universes (one for each person, object, and even atom really), so the "big universe" (whatever all the quantum possibilities are being created in) will never really end.

Kind of confusing, but thats my opinion.

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Cookyzue
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 06:47
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@zero Blitzt: thats pretty much exactly what i was *trying* to say


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 11:18
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heh heh, we are getting into some pretty deep Metaphysics aren't we?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 11:40
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Pretty deep bullshank if you ask me..

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 14:29 Edited at: 5th Jun 2004 14:32
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The problem with the multiple universe theory is that the amount of energy would be multiplying incrementally at such an incredible rate that it seems impossible. Like doubling up forever. I doubt that there could be a quadmillion decadillion vavavoomzillion universes. So there is probably just this universe, and maybe another for when we die.

Quote: "What ever the result is, it is not random; its an adherance to physical laws (whether we know HOW those laws are applied or not).
"


Once you admit that you do not understand how those laws are applied you loose the argument. You can't say that nothing is random if you don't understand the laws that you are using as your argument.

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 18:13
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I believe the whole universe is just a big illusion created by GUZSNORK THE TROLL who eats peoples' BRAINS to feed his HORRIFIC MONSTROSITY. And the BUSH ADMINISTRATION is trying to POISON OUR FARM ANIMALS. That is all.

On a less serious note--

HZense; if so, where did that matter come from?

ABomb; I agree with Pincho, if you don't understand it you really can't debate it, and past that, modern physics are fundamentally flawed on the sub-atomic level, remember. That's where quantum physics take over. I think *ahem*.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 19:34
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Quote: "Once you admit that you do not understand how those laws are applied you loose the argument. You can't say that nothing is random if you don't understand the laws that you are using as your argument."


Sure, while there is a strong chance that the universe is ruled by laws that produce logical results, it could be equally true that the result can never be predicted. This is a flaw that Hamish has already stated. Its a perfectly valid argument.

My theory of fate relies of these facts:

1) Universe Created by a Prime Cause.
2) All Causes come after the prime cause
3) The Universe follows a set of Physical Law that produce the same results in a given event. (not true "randomness")

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 20:34
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i believe you guys are trying to make sense out of what your brains are unable to comprehend...

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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2004 22:52
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The field of quantum physics is cosntantly being expanded. Mathematically. And there are no mistakes in mathematical proof . So I disagree.

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Chris K
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 00:56
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Quote: "modern physics are fundamentally flawed on the sub-atomic level"


I don't think so.... care to elaborate?
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 01:51
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Quantum Physics don't make any sense to anyone. It most likely means that all the maths that lead up to it are slightly wrong. We count in very specific digital terms, but most physics are actually analogue with no digital reference. When we count from 1 to 10 we are being specific, but the physical world is not specific. The reason that it is said that you cannot pass the speed of light is because we are using a digital reference. I believe that most of our particles can pass the speed of light. Actually, I think that light does not have a speed that we can register with our instruments. I believe that light travels backwards in time. Anyhow, if we just speculate that nearly all of science is slightly incorrect, then we cannot work with Quantum Physics.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 04:42
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Who says the universe had a beginning? Who says it will have an end? What if time is just a trick of the mind, and things don't have a start and a finish... what if they just are?

Who says anything is real, what if everything is an illusion, and the underlying reality is far beyond the grasp of human minds? The universe could be far far more complicated than we could even imagine, we will never know if we have discovered the whole truth.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 05:08
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Time could be a trick of the mind, like you say. I think that it probably is because there always has to be something that builds the next element. There has to be something before the Big Bang, there has to be something before God. Best just to say that there was no beginning at all.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 05:27 Edited at: 6th Jun 2004 05:30
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They have proved that time slows down (for you) as you speed up, so there is some base for that "nothing massive faster than light speed" theory.

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Chris K
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 10:57
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Quote: "Quantum Physics don't make any sense to anyone."


Yeah it does. I'm pretty sure a few Nobel Prizes were given out for it.

Quote: "The reason that it is said that you cannot pass the speed of light is because we are using a digital reference"


No, that's because the faster you go the heavier you get.

Quote: "I believe that most of our particles can pass the speed of light"


I don't know what you meant by "our" particles. The only particles that can travel faster than the speed of light are anti matter particles which can't travel slower that the speed of light.

Quote: "Actually, I think that light does not have a speed that we can register with our instruments"


What? Are you serious? The speed of light was first measured in about 1800. There are loads of experiments to see how fast light is. I am 100% sure we know how fast light is.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 12:10
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@Chris Knott..At this point things get too complicated to use all of your quotes, and to correct them, but to me they are all wrong.

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Chris K
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 12:48
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I don't understand.
Are you saying that you personally don't believe them, on a sort of faith - or are you saying that there is real physics behind how everything I said was wrong?
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 15:59
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Well...The nobel prizes were for discovering the existence of particles, but nobody understood how they worked properly. The speed of light has been registered using instruments that are obeying our laws of time, but the speed of light would not be actually situated in our time.

Quote: "I don't know what you meant by "our" particles. The only particles that can travel faster than the speed of light are anti matter particles which can't travel slower that the speed of light.
"


And this is dependant on whether the speed of light has been calculated correctly. If the speed of light travels backwards in time then nutrinos also travel faster than time. Light can be in two places at once, this does not obey the rules of our science. It does however obey my rules that it is travelling backwards in time.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 16:18 Edited at: 6th Jun 2004 16:19
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Quote: "The only particles that can travel faster than the speed of light are anti matter particles which can't travel slower that the speed of light."


Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't anti-matter just matter with an opposite charge. From what I've heard anti-matter travels the same speed as regular matter. There are some theoretical particles that can travel faster than the speed of light, and therefore travel backwards through time, but there is pretty much NO evedence for these.

Pincho - Where is your evedence for light travelling backwards through time? It pretty much goes against everything that has been said about modern physics.

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Arkheii
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 18:40
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http://www.weirdcrap.com/chick/

dum dee dum...

Let's loosen up a bit.

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 20:16
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Quote: "Pincho - Where is your evedence for light travelling backwards through time? It pretty much goes against everything that has been said about modern physics.
"


Yeah it goes against modern physics, but it was dicovered by modern physics. Scientists who play crossword puzzles tend to make up words if they can't answer one of the problems. They have a blind spot for mistakes, the same as Religious people have a blind spot for arguments against God.

So Light has a speed??? Then how can it be in two places at once??? That is an obvious blind spot on science.

When is light in two places at once???.......

If you make two slits in a piece of card, and fire a single photon towards the centre of the slits. The photon will pass through both slits if someone observes both slits at the same time. A photon cannot pass through both slits if it has a set speed. It hits a piece of photo-sensitive paper behind the slits, and leaves a mark on both top, and bottom of the paper. When it his the top of the paper, its energy would be dispersed, and so it would die, so cannot hit the bottom of the paper unless it hit the bottom at the same time as the top. To do that it would have to travel backwards in time. It's a rule that breaks science, and so the blind spot is put up by science. The next rule that is broken is by nutrinos. they change state as they travel. A nutrino cannot change state if it is travelling at the speed of light as registered by man. So a blind spot is put up again. Ok so science says that the nutrino must slow down then, and so it must have mass. Science filled in the crossword puzzle with the word MASS. Mass was not allowed until this point. Suddenly it was allowed!

If light travels backwards in time, then nutrinos can also travel backwards in time. Now Nutrinos are allowed to change state without the word MASS being added to the crossword puzzle. Science is a patchwork quilt that is full of holes. I don't follow science blindly like a lamb. Nor religion. I follow the truth.

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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 20:37
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Quote: "I follow the truth."


You follow what you think . But yeah, you have valid points, but you can't say they are the truth.

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Chris K
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Posted: 6th Jun 2004 20:48
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Unfortunately for you, Pincho, however weird and contradictory different pieces of physics are, they all work.

Light can have a mass and it cannot have a mass.

We say this because that is what it does. We can't properly explain it yet, no one says they can - but it is undisputable that light has a mass in some situations and doesn't have it in others.

In the same way you could write an equation for magnetic strength even if you didn't understand electrons and the rest of the inner workings of magnetism, we can observe and define the behaviour of light even it we cannot understand it properly.

Please elaborate on you theory of light traveling backwards in time - are you saying that the light coming of my computer screen into my eyes is moving backwards through time?

How does your theory explain light behaving like a wave and a particle and photons being in two places at once?
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