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Work in Progress / Hover racing engine demo ...

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Fallout
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Posted: 25th Jun 2004 23:57 Edited at: 4th Jul 2004 03:08
Ok, here's a little demo for you all.

Firstly, screenies for those that haven't seen my other post:


The purpose of this demo is to give people a taste of the handling and get feedback on the handling. The track you're racing may or may not be in the final game.

Things I particularly want feedback on:
-Handling of the ship (Is it good/bad? Too hard, too easy? Too quick, too slow? Fun, boring?)
-Errors in handling (things that seem unexpected - try and explain it as well as possible, and explain where it happened if appropriate)
-The game is limited to run at 60FPS. Did you get around that FPS?

I know the level is a bit bland. There's no need to hark on about level design. This is an engine demo.

Controls:
UP/DOWN (Forward/Backwards thrust)
LEFT/RIGHT (Left/Right Yaw thrust)
Z/X (Left/Right wingtip downward thrust (results in roll left/right control when one is pressed, or downwards force on the back resulting in pitching the nose up when both are press, but the result is only noticable when airborne).
TAB (Down thrust on the nose and right wing tip (Hold this to right yourself when you land upsidedown. Don't use it in flight, else you'll go into a hardcore z/x axis twist).

General tips:
-The craft hovers, which means it has no friction with the ground. It has a spherical friction with the air. This means you can't really change directional velocity (TURN!!!) with LEFT and RIGHT. Don't try turning corners without the powerdown. It won't get you anywhere.
-The DOWN key is a reverse thrust, not a brake. This means, unless you are pointing directly in the direction you are travelling, it will suck you off course. If you're sliding sideways with your back to a cliff edge, don't press DOWN to try and slow down, you'll just power yourself backwards off the cliff.
-Z/X are there for small scale roll control if you take to the air and find yourself out of shape. Use them to correct your z-axis rotation if it doesnt look like you're going to land nicely. If you're going nose first into the ground, you can press both simultaneously to pitch the nose up. Pressing DOWN to reverse thrust will slow your nose dive down and buy you some time.
-The best turning technique for tricky corners is to release the power for a moment, turn to point the nose, put the power back on and keep the nose pointed inwards to effectively powerslide the corner. It is never beneficial to release the power unless you're going to hit the inside of the corner. Because you're hovering, you have to power round the corner. You are not a plane! Your wings will not turn you.
-Lastly, you can jump a hell of a long way with the jets on, and you can turn in mid air (as you would expect) etc. So, on the last exit before the home straight, keep the power down and you can often fly the entire home straight without touching the ground.

Last note - currently the demo simply exits if you crash off the course (fall off a cliff, or fly up too high). Just restart.

Download 4.8MB here:
http://www.invisiblechainsaw.com/programs/games/HoverRacing.zip

Do a bunch of laps, and do the course in reverse too. Test it out. Let me know what you think.

EDIT: Worked out something for a bit of fun:
On your exit from the tunnel before coming back onto the home straight, hold down the roll controls (Z and X) and key forward pressed until your nose is vertically upwards, then keep Z and X pressed and release forwards to pull off a backflip.

If you get good at that, this one is damn hard ....
To pull off a twist cartwheel, jump out of the tunnel before the exit. Flip back with Z and X a little if your nose is too level. Use X so your left wing is pointing at the sky. Hold LEFT to rotate around 360 degrees in a cartwheel motion. Remember to release UP when you're pointing towards the ground, else you'll be powering towards it. Level off with Z or X for a 270 degree final twist. Looks ace. When the replays are set up, these will look damn good on camera.

Mussi
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 00:11
nice game!, altough it's not really fun not being able to take turns with full speed . good job



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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 00:37
You can take all the turns except the first and cliff hairpin at full speed. More practice, young jedi!!!

I hate arcade racers, so this is not supposed to be an easy game.

Grismald
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 01:01
very promising start, i like the handling although i went upside down several times .How about adding a timer, so that we can have a little "who drives the hover faster" competiton


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Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 01:08
Good plan. Unfortunately it takes me an age to upload cos I'm back on dial-up. But I'll implement some other features, and a lap counter later on.

andrew11
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 01:37 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 02:01
Very cool.

Turning is a little slow. IMO it would be better if the front swayed a little more but cool anyway...

Also, when I was playing, my ship flipped over and continued to drive on its back . Fix that!

Another thing, I expected to be able to roll around tunnels but it doesent let me!


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 02:05
Yep. It's based on a simulated physics model. You can slide on your back because, if you had jets, and you were on your back, you'd still be able to slide. But it's much slower, because of the increased friction and in the final game, it will cause damage. Also, you can roll around the tunnel, but you won't have enough speed/momentum to just turn and loop round, you'd have to swing up one side then back down to the other side to get the momentum.

It's a fairly accurately simulated physics model. Do what you'd do in real life to achieve what you want to do in the game.

andrew11
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 02:23 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 02:42
Ah I see. It is very hard to right yourself though.

It just needs a map and a speedometer.


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 02:31 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 02:33
Right yourself by holding the TAB key.

And yep, I think you're right. A map and speedo would be cool. I'm gonna work on AI next. And then maybe work on an instant replay feature. Would be cool to watch yourself wipeout from a distance, as from chase view, it doesnt look very dramatic.

Edit: Made everything in milkshape and lith unwrap.

andrew11
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 02:34
doh

I never read instructions


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 02:40
Cool. Very slidey . The track is very impressive, although I did flip myself constantly . I think the steering is possibly a bit too slidey. Makes me think I should work faster with my futuristic racer project .

Athelon XP 1600+/Radeon 9600 Pro/256 RAM
bsgamemaker
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 03:34
This game sure has potential. Only thing is turning left and right seems somewhat stiff, and I mean it doesn't turn well . Also maybe you could add joystick/joypad control with forcefeedback, that would give it an intense feeling with gameplay making you feel like your really in the action.
Also I'm very impressed with the simple tools(milkshape & lith unwrap) you used. It shows what you can really accomplish with basic tools when you put your mind to it.

Good Job!!!
Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 03:50
Cheers for that. Yes, analogue controller and force feedback is planned. I made a force feedback demo a while back, and its very simple to use, so no problem there. Haven't tried analogue yet, but I'm sure it's possible.

As for the turning sensitivity, yeah, the craft isn't super responsive, which means you have to turn in early and its hard to get out of a situation once it develops. I've got a couple of ideas for that - one is you can customise the sensitivity, within reason, depending on how you like it, and the other is different classes of craft. i.e. different formulas, which all handle differently. I'll probably implement both ideas.

As for the basic tools ... yeah, but believe me it's taken a while. A lot longer than it would've done with better software, but at least I've kept the polycount low.

Thanks for the feedback so far people.

Btw, I made a quick demo with fraps to prove it's not a slow racing game for cornering. You just have to practice. Sorry for the lo-fi video, but I wanted to keep it small.
http://www.kontact-kru.com/game/hover-demo.avi

Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 04:41 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 04:42
Worked out something for a bit of fun:
On your exit from the tunnel before coming back onto the home straight, hold down the roll controls (Z and X) and key forward pressed until your nose is vertically upwards, then keep Z and X pressed and release forwards to pull off a backflip.

If you get good at that, this one is damn hard ....
To pull off a twist cartwheel, jump out of the tunnel before the exit. Flip back with Z and X a little if your nose is too level. Use X so your left wing is pointing at the sky. Hold LEFT to rotate around 360 degrees in a cartwheel motion. Remember to release UP when you're pointing towards the ground, else you'll be powering towards it. Level off with Z or X for a 270 degree final twist. Looks ace. When the replays are set up, these will look damn good on camera.

(Will add this to the top post)

walaber
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 05:17
very nice start!! the controls are pretty good, although I agree a little more responsiveness in the steering would be nice... but it probably just takes some getting used to.

just looking great so far!!

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

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Physics coder
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 05:31 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 05:47
Cool. I played a couple laps and it has a nice learning curve. I wish the turning was faster though, and maybe have a speedometer so you can measure how fast you were going.

Also think the level, or perhaps later levels, have more than one path through the level, like a slow easy way the AI players take, and a short cut or two the player can learn.

The camera follow was a bit akward at times. when going up a steep section of the track, I couldn't see what was right in front of me.

Overall good start.

-----------------------------------
To delete the bug, delete the code.
Specs: Sony VAIO Laptop, Windows XP, P4 2.8Ghz, 512MB RAM, ATI Radeon 64MB video memory, DBP Upgrade 5.3.
andrew11
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 05:38 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 05:44
What it needs also is a power meter. When you've banged up your craft good the it will explode in a dramatic movie like fashion

Also, this happened to me:

The ship is embedded into the ground Sometimes I just fall through and die.

P.S. How do you open that video? It doesent work in winamp or media player.


"All programmers are playwrites and all computers are lousy actors" -Anon
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 13:23 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 13:29
Loving it Its got the kinda controls/handling that are frustrating at first but then you stick at it and produce a moment of brilliance, like the first time you take a corner really well at full speed, or rescuing yourself from slamming into the ground from the roof of the tunnel by fliping yourself the right way up again.

A few things though
o When you flip and right yourself with Tab, it spins you round on the Y-axis aswell, this is quite anoying as you tend to end up the facing the wrong way.
o I think you bounce to much when you hit a wall, but only sometimes? At certain times you can just scrape a wall and be flung across the track into the other wall, then maybe bounced into another wall, its just abit frustrating
o I get an object doesn't exist error on line 624 after falling off the edge of the track on the secondcorner after the tunnels(just passed the rocky outcrop type thing)

Other than that its great, i really like it and can't wait to see more.

#edit, oh and a constant 64fps here on a pretty low spec machine:
pentium 4 1.6ghz
geforce 2 ti
256mb ram

Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 14:38
Cheers for all the feedback. I'll try and pick up a few things ...

@Phisics coder
-Yeah, there is a camera issue with steep hills. There's a fair bit of camera smoothing to make it move nicely, but unfortunately sometimes the smoothing has the opposite effect (steep hills), so I might add some information to the track to tell the camera to get into position quicker for steap hills.

@andrew11

-Falling through the track should be an issue with seems in the track. I haven't made it perfectly, so there are still gaps in polys where you can drive through, even if you cant see them on camera. Should be resolved later.

Also, there are certain zones that I havent set up properly (little extremities on some track sections, like the top part of some of the tunnel section, and the corner of dropping into the final hilly tunnel section). If you go into these, the game thinks you've come off the track and quits. Just need to search through and resolve these.

-Sorry, should've said, the video needs the DivX codec ... probably version 5.

@ReD_eYe

-Yes, that's what I was aiming for. Hard controls that when you practice at, you get better and better until after a while you're clocking laps almost at full speed.

-I'm undecided about the TAB issue, as a few punishments for crashing are necessary. Also, it spins round just as a result of applying the forces where I do to flip the craft back over. Will have to think about this one. It'll actually be quite hard to resolve without figuring out some other way to apply flipping forces to the ship.

-The bouncing issue is also to do with the physics simulation I've programmed. It's a bit fundamental to how the whole thing works, but I agree it can be frustrating. It's just hard to do anything about it, without trying to program by-passes for certain conditions (i.e. if craft clips a wall, and impact normal is slight, and craft isn't going too fast, and resultant spin speed is x amount more than it was before the crash, then apply -x amount of spin speed to counter effect). It'd just get messy, but there still might be things I can do.

All I can say though is, you have to remember the craft has no friction with the ground, at all, so as far the physics are concerned (and this is the same in real life), any slight collision on one wing could put the craft into an infinite spin, of different speed, depending on the force of the collision. The only thing that stops this from happening is wind resistance and you turn/powering to counter act it. Thats what you see happening in the game.

-The object exist error is to do with the engine trying to check for collision with a track piece that doesn't exist (sinse you just took a trip off the track! ). Resolved later. (I'll probably start a respot feature first).

Dennuz666 v2
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 16:25
I like it. I like arcade games, so it comes to no suprise that i think the handling is too slow/'difficult'. In my first try i landed on my head for 4 times

Keep this thing up, i would love to see it finished.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 17:22
Twas good apart from me driving around half of the track on my roof.

Fallout
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 17:30
You just need to practice to avoid flipping over. Controls to right yourself if you land upsidedown are mentioned in the first post.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 17:52 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 17:54
There's a lot of text on there. I can't find it. Oh TAB.
Yeah I read the first part of TAB, and I thought I had read enough to skip the rest of it.

Benjamin
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 18:18 Edited at: 26th Jun 2004 18:22
Woah nice! The turning is a bit slow but other than that its cool. I'm wondering, are you using inkey$ to detect for X and Z because my keyboard is french and if the keypresses are detected some other way then z is where w should be, a where q should be, etc.

Do a huge jump and hold the tab key

One thing that really annoys me is when you get too close to the side of the track and it wont let you turn away from it

Projects in progress: Lerioonia, Crescent
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 26th Jun 2004 18:31
I second that last point by petrat it may be realistic but its damn annoying.

Lampton Worm
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Posted: 27th Jun 2004 18:07
Hi,

Woah, cool... ran at a steady 66 FPS on this system...

Windows 98 SE
AMD Athlon, MMX, 1.2Ghz
256MB RAM
DX 9.0b
NVIDIA GeForce3 Ti200
DBP 5.4

Good fun, but I'd agree with Mr Pet Rat on the side of the track thing.

Love the sounds...

Cheers.
spooky
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Posted: 27th Jun 2004 18:19
I wanna play but your sites gone down

Hopefully a temporary problem. I'll try again later.


Boo!
Fallout
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Posted: 27th Jun 2004 19:52
Nope. Had to reregister my URL and the kontact-kru one is an old music group which is no longer a live. So I didn't renew it. Instead, I've bought a new one, which won't be activated for about 24 hours. I'll repost the URLs when it's all up and running.

Not long!

Lampton Worm
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 01:45
Hi,

Site's up now btw spooky... http://www.invisiblechainsaw.com/hoverracing.php

@Fallout, for your map, I see its broken down into .x sections - do you load them all, then only show the one your are "in", or do you load them on the fly (would be slow though?)?

Tis a cool demo, lots of fun.

Cheers.
Fallout
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 21:17
Cheers for putting the new link there. I was going to make a new post, but then decided to wait until I'd made updates.

Yep, the map is multiple models. I'm going to write a map parsing type program that does this all automatically, but currently I manually specify zones with a simple formula.

Basically, there is a grid square zones. The track is split into about 40x40 zones, but I intend to increase this when I make the auto-calculating program. The zones are nothing to do with the models. Instead, each zone has information on what track models you can see from that zone and what track models you can collide with from that zone. The 17 track pieces for redplanet are all loaded at the start and hidden, then depending on which zone the camera is in, different track pieces are hidden and displayed. Depending on what zone the craft is in, different track pieces are tested for collision.

The main FPS dents are drawing the 3D world and collision. In fact, collision makes a huge dent, as each craft needs three polygon perfect collision checks, so when the AI are on their, it will take a lot of cycles. What I intend to do is therefore chop the track up into much smaller pieces, so collision checking is on much few polys, and then that'll speed everything up a load. Also, it should allow me to reduce the amount of drawn polys.

The main problem is, the more track pieces, and the smaller the zones, the more work it is to manually input what you can see and collide with from each zone (and make more mistakes). So I'll need to make the auto-zone compiler proggy. Working out which map pieces you can collide with in a zone is easy, but working out which ones you can see is not. To do that, I'll have to start firing alot of rays from each zone at many positions for every track piece, and checking to see if a collision occurs with any other track piece. If you're interested, the maths on that would be something like:
Firing rays from unit any position in a 10x10x10 zone block = 1000 ray fires
Estimate of 50 track pieces per track. Average of 200 vertices per track piece.
Need to fire the ray at every vertex (only way to ensure all extremities are covered).
That gives 50x200x1000 ray fires per zone = 10,000,000 ray fire.
Times that by hi-res zones 100x100 = 100,000,000,000

So I need to fire, on average, one hundred billion collision rays to get the necessary collision information. These collision rays need to be checked against every single object in the scene (about 10,000-20,000 polys worth of data).

Final ray to poly collision check:
2,000,000,000,000,000

hehe.

Ok, I'm babbling here now for my own benefit, but I'm starting to realise why it took so long for games like quake to calculate vis and radiosity information when you were making levels. But this auto-calculating vis info blah blah will be a challenge to write.

Lampton Worm
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Posted: 2nd Jul 2004 22:12
Some mad calculations in there Did you end up using NG's collision dll at all btw? That is quite heavily optimized for good performance.
Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2004 03:42
Yep, that's what I've been using. It is optimised, and I was impressed with the performance, but it's still the main dent on CPU cycles. Even NG slows down testing many objects against thousands of polys per loop! But optimisations on my part will make it much quicker. NG is definitely fast enough if you optimise what goes into it.

Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2004 10:32
Hey fallout, hurry up and make another track already! I wanna play on another track, this one is getting boring

Projects in progress: Lerioonia, Crescent
Rigo
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2004 19:59
I cant downolad the Demo, thge link is brkoen!!

Please repair it!!!
I want to see the game!!!

Thanks,
FZoli.

Look at MED, the Matrix Editor from Hungary! Texture blending, free rts camera, and more!
http://darkbasic.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=31490&b=8
MiR
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Posted: 3rd Jul 2004 20:36
You can download it from fallout´s website.

Libera tu mente y te liberaras.
Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 00:38 Edited at: 4th Jul 2004 03:24
Hey Fallout, it finally worked on my PC. Ran pretty smooth too. (60 fps)

EDIT: ok yea I figured out how to flip my car...sooory!

Trying to get my sig up!
Damn you Angelfire!
Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 03:11
Ok, updated the links on the first post at last.

@ Megaton Already told you the answer on MSN. To everyone else, read the first post!

@Pet Rat - it's gonna take a while. I've switched back to bombadier for a while, to give me a bit of variation in what I'm making. I'll need track modellers in the near future though.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 03:30 Edited at: 4th Jul 2004 03:32
You want a new track petrat, here it is. Introducing Hover racer's first ever mod: Ice Racer

http://www.angelfire.com/comics/megatoncreations/ice.jpg



EDIT: actual screenshots btw
I know, I have too much free time.

Trying to get my sig up!
Damn you Angelfire!
Fallout
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 05:53
hehe. You should replace the ship model as well.

GCEclipse
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 07:30
Really fun, once you get the hang of it.

I managed to fall off the world and tried to come back up at one point and got "Object number illegal at line 629" error.

At one other point I hit a wall and fell through the world.

Otherwise, nice looking and a lot of fun. I really look forward to seeing more of this.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 10:19
I was going to get a custon hover car. I even found a awsome one on turbosquid...but it was .max and I was too lazy to install 3ds max now...and...
ah who cares.

Trying to get my sig up!
Damn you Angelfire!
DeepBlue
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 10:51
Nice demo..had an issue that after one of the high jumps ship crashed at a 90 degree angle (one wing stuck in ground) could not right craft using tab etc. had to zoom along for some distance on my side until I managed to crash with enough force to free myself.

Apart from that small issue I thought it was very good.

The coder formerly known as Twynklet.
Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 20:58 Edited at: 4th Jul 2004 21:01
My ice one looks a bit different




On that tunnel you can do loop the loop



EDIT: Stupid hotlinking, I'll go enable it

Projects in progress: Lerioonia, Crescent
Benjamin
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 21:13
Quote: "had to zoom along for some distance on my side until I managed to crash with enough force to free myself."

Weeeeee I bet that was fun

Projects in progress: Lerioonia, Crescent
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 21:59
Lets get the mod community for "Hover Racer" going!

Toxic ground, girly racer and firey engine flares


Peter H
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 21:59
Quote: "My ice one looks a bit different "

that's beautifull


Formerly known as "DarkWing Duck"
ReD_eYe
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 22:02
Fallout, if you could include some script files to handle things like gravity,acceleration, max speed etc this could be loadsa fun to mod. hehe, i pwnz petrat

David T
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Posted: 4th Jul 2004 22:05
I'm mightily impressed by this

Grr, if only I could model......

Get 15 new commands, all the date / time commands left out of DBPro for free!
DOWNLOAD PLUGINS HERE: http://www.davidtattersall.me.uk/ and select "DarkBasic"
Megaton Cat
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Aug 2003
Location: Toronto, Canada
Posted: 5th Jul 2004 00:22
Coming up next...
The exclusive sky cars expansion pack.

Trying to get my sig up!
Damn you Angelfire!
Benjamin
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 24th Nov 2002
Location: France
Posted: 5th Jul 2004 02:38
Quote: "hehe, i pwnz petrat"

STFU N00B!!

Projects in progress: Lerioonia, Crescent

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