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Geek Culture / Religion (Satanism for me) *NO PRERSONAL ATTACKS HERE*

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Tomy
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 07:17
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Quote: " some of them DO just decide to be gay for social reasons "


That's not a real reason to judge them all cuz the ones who choose to be gay are the minority.
There are also some guys who just claim to be handicapped in order to get social support, tho that's not a reason not to give money to handicapped ppl anymore.
You can't judge ppl if only some of them do stupid things.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 07:53
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Quote: "That's not a real reason to judge them all cuz the ones who choose to be gay are the minority."


Hey, grab an english dictionary and look up the word 'some'

Maybe it will enlighten you and prevent you from saying another stupid thing like that.


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Tomy
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 08:07
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Ok in other words so that Jimmy can understand it:

Quote: "
No, I said that some of them DO just decide to be gay for social reasons and I don't think you can argue against that. "


completely pointless. Only very few ppl act like that, so there's no point in talking about them.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 16th Jul 2004 09:26
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*rips hair out*

Mmm, hair PIE!


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Teh Go0rfmeister
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 04:31 Edited at: 17th Jul 2004 04:32
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Quote: "Worshippers of the devil are not Satanists"

wtf???

so worshippers of communism arnt communists? thats new.

Quote: "Whether created by God or science..."


sorry jimmy, i kno you werent making a point with those few words, but i have to bring it up:

when will ppl realise religion and science are the same thing?

edit: while i'm at it, fate is an illusion. msn/irc me if u wanna know why

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 04:34
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Quote: "wtf???

so worshippers of communism arnt communists? thats new."


First off, Communism is not a religionsecond off, read our bible

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Benjamin
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 04:42 Edited at: 17th Jul 2004 04:43
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STFU Ozzum!

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Jimmy
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 05:39
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DAGNABBIT Froog...

While I agree with everything you just said... you weren't supposed to revive this thing

It was almost gone...

But while we're on it. Ozzum: Communism is a system of beliefs is it not? It could be considered a religion. But he is wrong about Satanists worshiping the devil. Satanists worship themselves, which is a characteristic of the devil, therefore, satanists are satan.


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 15:48
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@Jimmy: Ok, I guess someone could make it into a religion!

@Froogle: I don't think fate's an illusion...it logically makes sense: if anyone else were in your shoes they'd be making the exact same choice. In fact, if anyone else was born in your shoes, they'd be doing the exact same thing as you. hmmm...someone else can probably explain it MUCH better

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Jimmy
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 17:48
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Ozzum, that's a theory based on speculation that can never, EVER, be tested or proven, so it's hardly a valid arguement.


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IanM
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 18:30
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Hmmm ... and that sounds like another argument about the existance or otherwise of a god too, but you wouldn't say that's not a valid argument.

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 17th Jul 2004 20:27
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Thats not a valid arguement...

Now that wasn't so hard was it?


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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 00:20
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Quote: "In fact, if anyone else was born in your shoes, they'd be doing the exact same thing as you. hmmm...someone else can probably explain it MUCH better"


The only flaw with this statement is assuming that another person can be born in your shoes.

Quote: "Ozzum, that's a theory based on speculation that can never, EVER, be tested or proven, so it's hardly a valid arguement."


This theory based heaviliy on the fact of equating the entire universe as a function (or a series of functions). The property of a function dictates for every input (-infinity, infinity) there can be only one output or result.

One way we can say that people are affected by physics and mathmatical logic (basic functions of the universe) is to use reductionism. Reductionism is the philosophy that all psychology reduces to biology, all biology to chemistry, chemistry to physics, and finally physics to mathematical logic. If this is true, human emotion, characteritics, and "freewill" are all dictated by mathmatical logic (or the functions of the universe).

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Jimmy
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 03:26
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Ah, but the existence of God is proven or unproven when we die. Someone could never ever relive your life in your shoes, it's impossible, even after you're dead.


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HZence
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 04:36
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Quote: "Ah, but the existence of God is proven or unproven when we die. Someone could never ever relive your life in your shoes, it's impossible, even after you're dead."


You don't know that for a fact.

You don't know anything for a fact.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 05:14
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Actually I do know it for a fact, I know a lot of things for a fact.

I know you're trying to be smart and philisophical or whatever, but if you don't know something for a fact, then what's the point in having any beliefs at all. It's impossible for me to agree with you, because I've got a little common sense and the guts stand by what I believe, rather than going "Meehh, I don't know anything fact, so I guess I COULD be wrong." I may be considered close-minded, but I know what I know and why I know it and apparently you don't.


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The Lynx
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 06:04
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Quote: "Someone could never ever relive your life in your shoes, it's impossible, even after you're dead."

I agree with this. How could someone relive your life, if you're dead or whatever, when the world is contstantly changing, nothing would be the same as it was when you lived it.

Proove it with cloning! We'll clone Jimmy, and see if the Jimmy clone does everything he did in life.

Ok I'm probably missing the argument, so correct me if I'm way off here.

Oh no! Chrissy had used her powers to turn herself into a hideous man-eating giant!
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HZence
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 06:09
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Quote: "I know you're trying to be smart and philisophical or whatever"


That so? Well I know that by the way you've phrased that statement you're trying to degrade my intelligence and feed your superiority complex.

I take that back, I don't know that for a fact. What can I say? I'm a presumptuous bastard.

Quote: "but if you don't know something for a fact, then what's the point in having any beliefs at all"


There isn't one. The way I see it is, there's two different forms of "knowing." Version One is "I know I'm right, based on evidence, experience, and more." Version Two is "I know I'm right because my parents told me and/or a book told me and/or I just get have a feeling that it is." That's why every believer of any religion in the world "knows they're right," version one style. However, there can only be one truth, so only one group of believers "knows they're right," version two style.

Quote: "It's impossible for me to agree with you"


That's stating the obvious...

Quote: "because I've got a little common sense and the guts stand by what I believe"


Yeah, I only have a little common sense too. It doesn't find me well.

But I do have the guts to stand up for what I believe. See, now you're assuming that because I don't have the label "Mormon" or "Christian" or "(insert religion here)" on my forehead, I don't believe anything. At least, that's the way I'm taking that statement.

I'd like to assure you that I do have beliefs, Only a few of those are strong. Others are constantly changing. Such is the way agnosticism. You know what? I'm happy with being agnostic, because I think if there is a God, he'd rather have his children find him for themselves than just believe it for whatever reason. I used to be a Christian because I was born and raised in the Christian church. Trust me, stupid reason to be a Christian. If I'm ever going back to that, it'll be for the right reasons.

Quote: "rather than going "Meehh, I don't know anything fact, so I guess I COULD be wrong.""


But I don't know anything for a fact -- as far as religion goes. I do know obvious things. For example, 2+2=4. I'm probably not wrong about that.

Quote: "I may be considered close-minded, but I know what I know and why I know it and apparently you don't."


Yeah, but don't let it get to you. I've realized everyone's closed minded. The more open-minded I try to be, the more closed-minded I become.

Oh, and I don't know why you "know what you know," but that's only because you haven't told me. Of course you may have mentioned it elsewhere in the thread, I may have just missed it.

Who knows


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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:39
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Quote: "That so? Well I know that by the way you've phrased that statement you're trying to degrade my intelligence and feed your superiority complex. "

Nice one HZence

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Peter H
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 00:27
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Quote: "That so? Well I know that by the way you've phrased that statement you're trying to degrade my intelligence and feed your superiority complex. "

WTF?! that sentance is doing exactly what it describes!

anyway, it seems like all you people are doing is looking at the other persons post and looking for grammer errors or something else you can pick on and totaly ignoring what the other person is saying!

that is a very immature way of disscussing something


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IanM
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 03:11
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Childish squabbling deleted. I asked for you to all keep it nice.

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Jimmy
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 03:15
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Magellan started it! *points*


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HZence
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 05:36
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This thread was almost dead, but then I read a certain post.

Magellan, could you please elaborate on how the statement

Quote: "That so? Well I know that by the way you've phrased that statement you're trying to degrade my intelligence and feed your superiority complex."


is

Quote: "doing exactly what it describes!"


please? If that's the way you've taken it I'm sorry, but unfortunately that's not the way it was intended. I was just stating a fact, that's all.


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Jimmy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 06:14
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Quote: "That so? Well I know that by the way you've phrased that statement you're trying to degrade my intelligence and feed your superiority complex."


If that's the way you've taken it I'm sorry, but unfortunately that's not the way it was intended. I was just stating a fact, that's all.



Wow, that's a magic phrase. I should use it all the time to get myself out of sticky situations.


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Tomy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 06:53
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Well then you used the wrong words Jimmy, cuz it really sounded as if you were trying to degrade HZence's intelligence and feed your superiority complex.

What a nice subject to talk about


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Jimmy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 07:19
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Let me be the first to admit that was EXACTLY what I was trying to do.

AND I don't find anything wrong with it


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 07:20
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Quote: "Well then you used the wrong words Jimmy, cuz it really sounded as if you were trying to degrade HZence's intelligence and feed your superiority complex."
It really sounds as if you're trying to degrade Jimmy's intelligence and feed your superiority complex.

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Lord Ozzum
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 09:15
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@Jimmy: No need to try to make people feel like idiots


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Jimmy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 11:39
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Well you don't treat cats like dogs do you?

No, you treat cats like cats.


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HZence
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 12:18
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Quote: "Wow, that's a magic phrase. I should use it all the time to get myself out of sticky situations."


Hey, I was just being honest. Afterall, I don't have a superiority complex not any more than the average guy that is.

So clearly, Jimmy is not the average guy.


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 12:22 Edited at: 21st Jul 2004 12:23
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We're all unaverage in our own special way
...........................................................
I know I said I wasn't going to post here, again but it's not in debate, so oh well, now that the thread's toned down a bit it's interesting.

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 13:23
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Quote: "We're all unaverage in our own special way"
I'M SPEACIAL!!!(superiorit.. thing is a funny word, hehehehehehehehe)

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Jimmy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 14:31
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I'm not the average guy and I'm GLAD.

If I lived the life of the average guy, I'd hate myself. End of story.


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IanM
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 16:47 Edited at: 21st Jul 2004 17:09
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Quote: "Let me be the first to admit that was EXACTLY what I was trying to do"


... and that's where you tried to redirect the argument - attacking the person instead of the idea.

The point is that fact and belief are *not* the same thing - they cannot both exist for the same thing at the same time ... at least in a single person. You can have a strong belief, but that is not the same as fact.

Quote: "No need to try to make people feel like idiots"


I don't believe that he suceeded here.

I don't think HZence is an idiot. I think he's an articulate guy who wants to work out his truth in his own way.

This IMO makes good sense - there are thousands of religions out there, a large portion of which are christian, a large portion (not just christians) who say that everyone else is wrong and they are right. Only one (if any) are right - who can say which one?

Quote: "but the existence of God is proven or unproven when we die"


So up until then I just have to take it on faith? I'll keep looking for proof that I can use *now* thanks. It's no use to me when I'm dead and find I've been supporting the 'wrong' religion.

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TheAbomb12
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 17:25
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Quote: "there are thousands of religions out there, a large portion of which are christian"


actually, the most popular religeon is Islam.

Anyways, if we are just going to flame each other, is there any point to this thread? There can't possibly be any new ideas in this thread that hundreds of years of debate hasn't already produced. And even if it does, will it change anyone's mind?

I motion to lock this thread.

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IanM
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 21:05
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The fastest growing religion is Islam, the current biggest is Christianity

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

Anyone care to second to that motion?

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Peter H
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 23:10 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2004 05:15
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so...a bunch of people are believing lies...

BTW what i meant was that that sentance in itself was a insult...


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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 02:36
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Huh? Did anyone point out a lie?

Was it regarding my need for proof? I'm looking for proof because there are an awful lot of people saying 'My way is the right way', with an awful lot of different 'Right ways', and no objective way to choose between them.

For all I know, your way might very well be the right way, but there is nothing there to distinguish it from many other people who could be offering me their viewpoint.

BTW, Which sentence was an insult?

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Jimmy
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 03:13
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Well, you can't just sit back and expect someone to come to you with truth and proof.

You need to have your own basic beliefs, to persuade your own decision. Let's say, for example, someone wants to know which Christian religion to join. I think, at the very least, they would have to have a belief in Christ and possibly the Bible. Then they'd choose the religion that best fits their own views of how Christ's religion would be.

I know faith is a risk and could mean wasting your life, but if you're not willing to put your soul on the line and instead, choose to stick with your own logic and reasoning, you don't belong in any religion. They are about giving up a part of yourself and making sacrifices to achieve whatever blessings you believe can be gained after this life.


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Peter H
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 05:20 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2004 05:21
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Quote: " but there is nothing there to distinguish it from many other people who could be offering me their viewpoint."

did you read my post awhile back? in it i explained how christianity is different from every other religion...

Quote: "to achieve whatever blessings you believe can be gained after this life."

see most religions say something like this...that you have to work to get into heaven(or whatever they call it) but in christianity you don't earn the right to go to heaven it's given to you...so that's how christianity is different
(i don't have time here to explain it more...if you want you can read my long post on page 5)

as jimmy said the problem is is that not choosing anything is itself a choice...

BTW i meant this sentance...
Quote: ""That so? Well I know that by the way you've phrased that statement you're trying to degrade my intelligence and feed your superiority complex."
"

i was trying to say that that sentance was itself a insult meant to build up the sayer and tear down the reciever...


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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 05:35
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Quote: "He asked us, "be you angels?" and we said "nay! we are but men""


'nuff said, stop your bickering you petty mortals...


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Peter H
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 05:39 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2004 05:39
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i'm sorry...i couldn't resist



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Jimmy
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 06:19
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But Magellan, it is only given to you if you accept Christ. Which, in a way, is earning it, because you have to make that decision.

Religions such as mine believe that you should also obey God's commandments. It may be a concept unheard of to most, but it might explain why they exist


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IanM
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 07:18
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From your viewpoint, your religion is indeed different. From mine, it just offers slightly different things in different ways. Not better, not worse.

What I see is a free gift that needs to be earned, by suppressing my thoughts and investigations into areas that are not support by the religion I choose, by believing that Jesus is my savior and directing all my worship through him, and following a set of rules set down 2000 years ago.

If I don't believe, or I continue to look and to question, I'm automatically a sinner and can be punished for all eternity (depending on the brand of Christianity).

I believe that you are sincere in what you write, but I can't live my life like that.

I'm kind to people and animals, I follow the Golden Rule, I don't smoke, and drink only occasionally. I live my life now, and not for a possible future gain, and I don't hurt anyone while doing it.

But despite this, I'm told that I'm condemned to an eternity of punishment because of the minor fact that I don't Believe.

You are right, I have made the choice not to choose - and I think it's right for me at this moment in time. I don't see it as a problem


Quote: "BTW i meant this sentance"


Ah, it wasn't something that I said then

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Manticore Night
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 07:29
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So, according to "them" if I say that their right, I can go and blow up dogs, crap in peoples yard, go to concerts naked(which I highly recommend(you get the whole place to yourself)), and still be going to heaven? I'm a little confused about cristanity.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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Jimmy
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 07:53
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Manticore, that's exactly what's messed up about mainstream christianity. There's a mentality now that you can opt for the easy way out and live a life of sin so long as you "believe."


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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 08:05 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2004 08:10
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I like to think of it this way:

The Ten Commandments is like the Constitution(sorry for the U.S. influence, haven't studied other countries' governments). It is the basic set of laws which you must follow. Then as the religion grows different groups of people make different amendments that help keep the original spirit of the Constitution alive by adjusting it to fit what's going on in society. So blowing up dogs and going to concerts naked (although great entertainment ), is probably not the best idea. Then if you do go blow up somebody's dog though, God always forgives. At least the general agreement is that if you go blow up somebody's dog and say "sorry I won't do it again", then go blow up somebody's cat and say "sorry I won't do it again", then it may not always work. Just one of those faith things.

Although I follow a form of Christianity I don't particularly like the idea that if you aren't Christian you're going to hell. What about all the Muslim, Jewish, n/a people that didn't necessarily believe in God God but were good people?
Anyway, I see a lot of similarities between different religions so we probably all have the right idea we're just not right on target.

[EDIT]
Just read your post Jimmy, makes perfect sense. Personally, I would rather see a bunch of sin-free non-Christians go to heaven than a bunch of sinning Christians.

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Peter H
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 08:07
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@manticore-
if you have that attitude then the chances are that you were never saved!(i'm saying that if you just accepted christ as a free way to get to heaven then you are probably not sincere)


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Tomy
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 11:46 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2004 11:48
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Quote: "see most religions say something like this...that you have to work to get into heaven(or whatever they call it) but in christianity you don't earn the right to go to heaven it's given to you...so that's how christianity is different
(i don't have time here to explain it more...if you want you can read my long post on page 5)
"


I can tell you thousands of time, but you just DON'T want to believe it!

The great majority of all christians don't believe that they come in heaven for free (ALL catholics, MOST protestant)
so don't say "christianity". There are so many types of Christianity and so many types of protestantism, tell me exactly what type you believe in and don't tell "lies" (it's exactly what you did, cuz you said in Christianity you come in heaven for free which is just not true)

Quote: "did you read my post awhile back? in it i explained how christianity is different from every other religion...
"


What's your point? every religion is different from every other religion.
You never took the time to study Buddhism so how can you say it's false?
It's very different from Christianity (AND IT'S NOT THE WAY YOU DESCRIBED ALL OTHER RELIGIONS!!)
And i'm sure you didn't study Islam either, but nevertheless you think it's a "bad" religion.

Quote: "The fastest growing religion is Islam, the current biggest is Christianity"


Well officially i'm still Christian! And i think the majority of all Christians aren't really Christians... it's just something that is written in their passports.


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Manticore Night
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2004 12:58
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Quote: "if you have that attitude then the chances are that you were never saved!"
saved? I'm an aethiest and always will be. I think that when you die, you just stop existing.

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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