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Geek Culture / What happened to the dreamcast?

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Killswitch
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 21:28
I must admit that I never owned a dreamcast myself, I did occasionally play on my friends one but that was it, I didn't really pay much attention as I wasn't into consoles at that point.

But I've just been looking through a console history thingy and the dreamcast seems to be a great machine! From what I know it can emulate SNES games, it can go online and it has those funny memory card thingys you put in the controller - it was the first 128 bit machine (same as PS2 and Gamecube!) so why oh why did it fall on its arse?

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Arkheii
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 21:49
Because Sega was the only company developing for it. Not enough games were churned out to support the console I think...

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 22:47 Edited at: 18th Jul 2004 22:49
The Dreamcast was at one point far ahead of the ps2. With games like Jet Set Radio, Fantasy star Online, and a truckload of great PC first person shooters. But after bad marketing (DC commercials at 3:00 a.m?)the PS2 caught up. And the release of the GC and Xbox only added another pirahna into the fishtank. This is all Nintendo's fault.

To Nintendo users: I hope your GameCube catches fire, burns your house down, and takes your cat in the inferno.

My E-shrine:
DC

RIP: 2000

Dave J
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Posted: 18th Jul 2004 23:34
And just look at the name! Can you imagine telling your friends you can't break into the girl's locker room after school because you'll be too busy playing with your 'Dreamcast'? Ha, they'd give you a right beating for that!


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Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 01:05
If you watch icons this not the case, dreamcast was beating PS2 because of stock quantaties but then because the PS2 had a dvd player on it which was a first in Japan the japanese went crazy over it and stopped caring about gaming on the dream cast so Sega just gave up and decided to go into software instead of hardware and other copanies did develop games like capcom and namco and bandai.
Can't remeber the other reasons though have to hope for a rerun.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 01:08
The main problem (apart from lack of support & advertising) was that it was supposed to be a real pain to program for.


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Supremacy
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 01:19
i had a dreamcast and i spent hours and hours playing jet set with my friends and laguhthing has hell (lhh) when playing virtua striker "bug's", hooo and soulcalibour the fightign game of the year was great to play, dont forget crazy taxi and sonic, and headhunter wass really good, eventually tgc is right, dreamcast programming sdk was crap, really hard to code i think, and the sony ps2 dvd blew it, yes maybe a little mroe marketing and game contratcs could woop nintendos game cube ass, but losing for playstation was unfortanly inevetible i think, we needed stuff like gta and metal guear, and we didnt had those, maybe if sega launched a seconde version of dreamcast back then after ps2, like a black version with dvd, maybe we had a chance cause we could go multiplayer very easily with dreamcast, i even remember going to regular internet in my tv thanks to dc, anyway, wone day my company Kid_81 will rule world software market, maybe then ill have enough money to buy sega and make a new console, "pheonix" that will woop ps2. (heheehehe just dreaming)

remember kids " dont hate the game, hate the player "

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MiR
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 01:45 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 01:49
Quote: "it was supposed to be a real pain to program for."

Realy? I thought the ps2 was supposed to be the hard to program one. I remember readingon some site that it was quite easy to program for. DidnĀ“t the dreamcast use some sort of Directx?


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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 01:54
Nope


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Killswitch
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 02:28
Saw a dreamcast for Ā£24.99 today, how easy is it to get SNES games on it? (i.e FF..?)

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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 02:37
Quote: " how easy is it to get SNES games on it? (i.e FF..?)"

Probably very hard...


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Jeku
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 03:07
I'm pretty sure you use the same ROMs as for other SNES emulators, so if you have one on your PC or Xbox already, then it's all good. Now all you have to do is find the emulator itself.

By the way, the Dreamcast is very much ALIVE! People are still making games for it, and the games that came out on it originally are < $10 in some stores!

IanM
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 03:20
Quote: "so why oh why did it fall on its arse?"


Marketing. Sony and Microsoft are good at it, Sega and Nintendo aren't (at least in the West) ... who do you think will be the most successful in the next generation of consoles?

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Killswitch
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 03:49
PS3 - even if it isn't the best, it just has the biggest libary of games, the most fans and, comon, the controller has the best design out of the lot.

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HZence
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 04:24
Quote: "To Nintendo users: I hope your GameCube catches fire, burns your house down, and takes your cat in the inferno."


Bah, console wars. I'm a PC developer myself, always will be. If I ever get my own gaming business going I'm sticking to PC. Only way I'll publish my games on consoles is if I'm offered a load of money.


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Cian Rice
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:12
Xbox Next a.k.a Xenon.
Microsoft is catching alot of developers eyes with it's next system, even Square Enix has plans to make XboX Next games, also Microsoft is going through alot of trouble to get japanese developers more interested because apart from Tecmo, japanese companys don't really like xbox.

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MiR
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 05:23 Edited at: 19th Jul 2004 05:24
Quote: " the (ps2)controller has the best design out of the lot.
"

FANBOY!!! Only joking. Realy you canĀ“t say itĀ“s the best design. Those anologue sticks realy hurt my thumbs after 5 mins. The best design would be the xbox s controler with the ps2 buttons.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 06:13
Quote: "What happened to the dreamcast?"


Sega happened.
The Dreamcast came out quite a while before the Playstation2, which gave it really the heads up on the entire market.
It had a great selection of games.
Very simple for PC Porting because of the technology used.
Cheap to License software (even cheaper than the Playstation/2).

All in all the Dreamcast was a very good solution, especially as it's 'unique' (at the time) Disc Format ment it was damn hard to pirate games.

So what went wrong?
Sega never expected the Playstation2 to be as big as it was.
Sales from the PS2s launch were just pheonominal! Probably down to Sony's overhype of the console which anyone with a first generation version will know, has serious dvd issues, problem with zone piracy and even worse the memory card interface had a fatal flaw which causes problems with save games.

Really why the PS2 has done so well quite frankly is a complete mystery, because for the price it was almost everyone I know ended up trading thier old hardware and games just to get it.
(meaning no old games makes the back compatibility useless)
As a DVD Player, well you could get a DC + DVD Player for half the price at the time... so again it made no sense.

Needless to say though this hurt Dreamcasts sales, but Sega firmly believed that this was just a faze. Sure enough after the initial launch thier sales did rise again, unfortunately... Sega were far to ahead of themselves, and when the market began to bottom out they didn't stop production.
Infact they basically ran themselves into debt producing a console everyone was just no longer buying.

If they'd done what Nintendo did a matter of a year ago, odds on they could've saved themselves then graciously ducked out of this next up-comming war.

The problem with thier marketing isn't actually so much lack of marketing, infact all of the developers saturated the market when released.

Sega's problem was, they weren't seen as 'cutting edge' even though the console can quite easily top the PS2 graphics wise. It was never seen as 'a contender' only something to bridge the gap in '99.

Nintendo's problem is they're seen as the kiddie console. Most serious gamers firmly believe that the Gamecube is only if you want to play with the cutesy Pikmin, Mario or Startfox.
Unfortunately it doesn't help Nintendo's case that this is how they advertise the damn thing, if games like Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid and Beyond Good & Evil got better exposure; then this wouldn't be the case.

X-Box's problem is well... it is gear far far too much at adults and online gameplay. Although online gaming is growing (and Nintendo's refuseal to believe it is a valid gaming medium) with more and more titles. Almost all of the X-Box's titles that are good really rely on this factor far too much.
Basically everything about the X-Box makes it a pure bore for single players (or even just playing with mates in the same room) as well as it is just far to expensive in almost every aspect.

Playstation2 is really the odd ball here.
It's technology quite frankly is a generation behind the current competitors, which is very noticeable.
Almost all of it's games are aimed at Single Player, which really means it's a loners console... same as the Playstation in many respects.
It too is just overly expensive especially for what it is...

Each console has it's flaws. The problem which each of the hardware developers face is quite frankly, no one has a clue what the hell the public prefers.
Sony is a prime example... Truely it baffles me to why the hell it is *still* outselling everyone.

Who will perform the best in the next console war?
Really who can say.

Xenon has the technology.
PS3 has the whole 'back compatibility'
'Revolution' ... well it's a complete mystery right now

Then you also have the Phantom which is all about pay-on-demand games. Could shock everyone and do really, really well.

As for the best controller... imo it's the Gamecube one.
- True Analog Buttons (unlike the 2 Step PS2 'Analog')
- Quality... The quality of the buttons, the 3D Sticks (thier motion is very nice, responsive as well as being made from anti-slip rubber with added anti-slip surface designs).
- Durability... This isn't just about how many times you can slam it on the floor, and that happens around here alot (gone through 5controllers between the XB and PS2 in the past 6months). More this conserns how it feels in your hand, they just feel sturdy.
- Weight... it adds to the sturdiness. The controllers are heavy enough so they rest in your hand nicely but not so heavy you need to be strong just to lift them up.
- Layout & Size... Everything is accessible without having to thing about where it is, to the point that it is colour coordinated so you don't have to think about what to push as in a letter.
The controller sits in anyones hand too... from kids to adults, there is no problem reaching the buttons for everything or stretching for them. (Nintendo made that mistake with the N64 and they didn't want to make it again)

Also imo the PSOne controller is better than the Playstation2 controller.

Megaton Cat
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 08:32
Total Raven posts read: 1


Yep he pretty much said it all.

Exeat, I was a big DC supporter ever since it launched it's ass. So you can shutup about the name thing.

No the DC didn't run on Direct x, and yes putting emulators on it is easy.

Quote: "japanese went crazy over it and stopped caring about gaming on the dream cast "


Actually, it's the other way around. DC completly died in North America, but still lived in Japan. They are still making games for the DC regularly (just not releasing in the US) and I once saw a feature of a new DC game in one of the latrst video game mags. Some overhead shooter everyone liked.

Anyway, Jet Set Radio was the most original game I've ever played. I even got the sound track. (Let Mom Sleep is just funky stuff!)

Lightwar siX
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 15:02
Quote: "The main problem (apart from lack of support & advertising) was that it was supposed to be a real pain to program for"


I think your confused with the sega saturn. Which most of the programming was actually in assembly. The DC on the other hand had MS libs to work with (dx), however the native DC (sega) libs were actually faster.

Bah
Van B
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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 19:23
DCEmulation.com has everything you need to breath life back into your DC.

I particularly like DreamSPEC (Spectrum emu), DreamSNES (SNES emu), NesterDC (NES emu), and the DC port of Quake 1 rocks too.


Van-B


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Posted: 19th Jul 2004 22:59
Quote: "I think your confused with the sega saturn. "

Possibly - never had either of them...


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Peter H
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 00:05
IMHO the gamecube controler is to light and flimsy...

i've played alot of GC and alot of XBOX and i think i like the
XBOX-s controlers the most...(you know the small ones with the black and white buttons in the lower right corner...instead of the unreachable upper right corner ) it's just so easy to reach every thing and it fit's in your hand nicely...


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 00:21
i've never used the X-Box S Controller, is that like some 3rd Party contoller?
i tend to only ever buy 'official' hardware, my brother likes to get 3rd party cause he likes to save money; but i hate low quality hardware.

the official x-box controller is just built for hands to damn large, i mean my hands are hardly small and often find myself reaching for buttons all over the place. same with the sidewinder controller it's based on (which is why i traded it for the gravis aftershock and never been happier with a PC controller)

Quote: "IMHO the gamecube controler is to light and flimsy..."


I am begining to wonder about people, as the GameCube's controller is the most sturdy out of all of the controllers.
the playstation2 controller is by far the lightest controller on the market, the GameCube controller is the same weight as the PSOne controller.

Infact Quality wise I'd say the PSOne and GC Controllers are equal.
the x-box's is just far to heavy, you play for an hour and you end up with aching wrists; if you combine this with ForceFeedBack games like DOA3 or Need For Speed Underground, quickly you find you have to rest your wrists on a surface just to play too long.

I used to have to do that with the N64 controller as well whenever i was using a RumblePak, because it totally off-balanced the controller.

Quote: "I think your confused with the sega saturn. Which most of the programming was actually in assembly."


Saturn and N64 were both awekard to program for, because although you could use C you also had to do alot of ASM inline programming else games would just come out too slow to be any use.

Still, I miss the Saturn controller. Loved thier take on the D-Pad
I always felt the Saturn was overpriced, but my mate had one was a nice machine. Could've done well if it wasn't so expensive to get the machine in the first place as it had some very good games.
Sega Rally, Nights and Panza Dragoon.

Van B
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 01:09 Edited at: 20th Jul 2004 01:11
I must have big hands, 'cos I love the original chunky X-Box controller for FPS games. The PS2 controllers analogue suck ass, but the controller is great for the Hawks series because the buttons are nicely positioned for combo's. I supose the same would go for beat-em-ups too. I've never paid much attention to the GC controller (even though I'm buying one next week), but I imagine it'll be fairly decent, although I loved the SNES controller and despised the N64 controller. The smaller X-Box controllers have my thumbs sorta pointing straight down at the thing, whereas the old style controllers I'd have my thumb over the whole analog 'shrooms' and can play like that without a single cramp. I do find PS2 and DC controllers are the worst for cramp.

The Saturn controller plain sucked, anyone who likes it must be mad, it's up there beside Atari Jaguar and Mastersystem controllers for useless lumps of dust encrusted crud.


Van-B


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Killswitch
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 01:16
I suppose its what your used to, I mean I've been using PS 1/2 controllers since I was 9 so im pretty much aquainted with them! Gamecube and X-box i've only ever occasionally come accross (and the experiences lead me to ty to avoid them) they're just not as confortable after so long with sonys controller.

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Lzdude69
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 02:22
Sorry people, Im gonna go with gamecubes, they kinda came after ps2 and nintendo knew that playstations controller design was extremely comfortable, so the kinda combined the n64 controller and the ps's into one comfortable controller. But overall, I think gamecube is going to top off the consoles, just because all the major developers are starting to realize that gamecube is whole lot more powerful with the realease of the rogue squadron games. See, now that gamecubes are only $150, thus everyone buys them, makes all the developers make games for it, wow look at that game cube. But you have to admit its awesome lookin?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 02:33
Quote: "The Saturn controller plain sucked, anyone who likes it must be mad, it's up there beside Atari Jaguar and Mastersystem controllers for useless lumps of dust encrusted crud."


The original controllers or the 2nd Release controllers?
2nd Release were so budget... they felt like Mega Drive controllers with extra buttons.
The original ones had style and were so comfortable

If you think the PS controller is too small Van you must have pretty large hands.

mm0zct
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 07:51
the dreamcast still lives in some programmers' houses as it is not only easyer than most consoles to write for, but it can read cd-r's, there is no region protection or anything, you don't need it chipped, you can just put it in and run it, you just have to burn the cd's in a certain way (multisession, audio track first then add the rest in a second burning)

lots of people have put linux on their dreamcasts although i'm still looking for a linux iso to boot mine from

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ReD_eYe
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 07:53
yeah, dreamcasts i have a bleeding finger, it hurts...


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 09:34
you can use Knoppix to boot them, however personally I find having a computer specially put aside for programming.
I personally have a Cyrix 200+ Mx, w/Geforce 2mx 200 running Unix for this very job of programming consoles.

The machine was dirty cheap (entire kit for under Ā£50),
Also specially bought Maya 3.0, Photoshop 5.0 and GCC for it. (total of that lot was Ā£45)

So for under Ā£100 got myself a machine which will happily run on a very low power demand (and can run silently with even the cheap passive heating solutions).
Dreamcast, N64, Saturn, GameCube, Playstation2 Development Kits 3rd party are all available online for free
It's more for fun, but good for cheap bedroom tinkering.

Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 15:57 Edited at: 20th Jul 2004 15:59
The Xbox S controller is indeed an official piece of hardware (http://www.xbox.com/en-us/hardware/xboxcontroller-s.htm) and I find it the most compfortable to use out of all controllers available. It all comes down to personal preference, does it not?

I've been using the PS2 controller for a long time as well, and I wish they had the trigger buttons like the Xbox controllers do, I really like them.

Modding the Xbox controller to have a PC USB connection is also quite useful for emulators. I have only used the original large controllers for one or two days, and I find them not too big at all. Didn't get any cramps. (I never have with any controller though, bleh.)

What the was the original topic? Oh yeah, Dreamcast. I have never played one, but they sound excellent, so if I ever encounter one for sale I'll snatch it if I can!

- Rpg Cyco

Pricey
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 19:24
i have a dreamcast and a gamecube (as well as quite a few other consoles) but when the gamecube and dreamcasat run along side each other it is impossible to tell the difference on the quality of graphics. i have sucsessfully got windows ce running on it and emulate a zx spectrum on it too. the memory cards are great as they are a console in their own right and the controllers have a really good feel to them. it plays audio cds too. the best Ā£25 i've ever spent probaly!


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Lzdude69
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Posted: 20th Jul 2004 23:59
I've always wondered how you would program a gamecube? One the discs are so damn small you would have to buy those little discs, but dont those have less storage than normal discs, so you would have to limit your self, or do the big shots use some other kind of, non-commercial disc? Anyway im gonna buy my friends dreamcast off of him, and im gonna try to program it, that would be cool. Seriously, have any of you actually done this, wait, raven youve programed a gamecube? If you have I want to learn, bad.

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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:01
I think Nintendo have their own file format for their CD's - one reason they are so hard to copy. No idea how much they store though...


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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:07
Quote: "And the release of the GC and Xbox only added another pirahna into the fishtank. This is all Nintendo's fault.

To Nintendo users: I hope your GameCube catches fire, burns your house down, and takes your cat in the inferno."


Thats not very nice. How is it all Nintendo's fault if XBox was released at the same time? You saying this makes me wish you caught on fire.


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Preston C
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:11
Quote: "No idea how much they store though..."


1.4 GB if I'm correct.

About the Dreamcast matter, I think I'll buy myself one one day and try to code something for it if I can find a proper SDK or documentation.

Cheers,
Preston


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geecee3
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:18
@TCA about a gig, it's a hybrid format using DVD technology.
Phase Change Optical ( multi layer )

the DC was a tech marvel, the power VR chipset was chosen over some obscure Nvidia set. When the DC was running the well programmed games, it could hold a 60HZ solid display without a frame drop.

best game : sword of the berzerk, awesome!

there are loads of emulation systems and boot discs available for the DC now, it's becoming a CULT machine with a srong following in the emulated arcade / console scene. As I class it as ABANDONSOLE I have amassed an enormous collection of ripped ISO's, and enjoy a game now and again. oh and it was VGA monitor compatible. I hate the PADS though!!

regards, geecee3.

PS. had anyone seen good cell shading before Jet Set Radio?

Lzdude69
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:19
1.4 gb, thats not bad, i'd like to learn how to program a dreamcast too, if I can find a tutitorial or something, I wil buy a dreamcast. I just found out nintendo uses their own disc too, gamecubes wont read mini dvd dics

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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:21
I would prefer to program an XBOX myself - unfortunately I dont have the money...


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:27
Nintendo GameCube (Panasonic DVD-Ram Format) Holds 1.8GB/DISC,
the official disc's contain special TCPA pressed security.
It also works on NGF (Nintendo Game Format) which is a variation on UDF (Universal Disc Format), specifically designed to run in sync with the IBM PPC Processor.

You can however purchase 3rd Party DVD-R, which hold upto 1.4GB/DISC. Although the GameCube can read these, it will notify you that the disc is not official when you boot up; Also if you try to use a game which is Official on one of these discs it will display you have pirated the game and refuse to load.
(hense why there is Zero Piracy on the GC)

The main problem with development for the GC is you still need to convert to NGF before using discs, this is the same as having open writing sessions.
Unless you have some years of experience I wouldn't recommended trying to program for your gamecube though. If you look at the fan scene for it you'll understand why.

The Dreamcast can also use CD-R (but not CD-RW as it has a problem reading unclosed discs), the native disc size for the DC is 720MB 80min Discs.

walaber
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:28
the sites mentioned above have tutorials for dreamcast programming. it's very, very similar to PC programming (on purpose), so it shouldn't bee too hard.

I loved my Dreamcast long after it had officially "died". a great system.

Go Go Gadget DBPRO!

Athlon XP 2400+ || DDR-SDRAM 1GB || Nvidia GeForce 4 Ti4200 AGP 8x 128MB
Lzdude69
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:35
@walaber~what sites?
@raven~so you convert your exe, wait, so you have to convert your code to ngf? How do you save it as ngf in the first place?

When I die...I want to be buried upside down...So thy critics can kiss my a$$...Oh yeah, Im not dying...
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:38
Quote: "@raven~so you convert your exe, wait, so you have to convert your code to ngf? How do you save it as ngf in the first place?"


No, if you don't get the basics of Disc Formats... I'd suggest you skip trying to program for the Cube. Beside anything else it requires some bloody good knowlage of OpenGL.

Van B
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:40
Nope.

The DC can support 1gb CD's - a special format that only the DC can read - PC's typically can't read or write to them, although it is dependent on the game and often you'll be able to list the files from your PC's CD rom. Pirates had to transfer the data from the original disc through the DC onto a PC via a link cable - then they'd skim the excess media until it would fit on a standard CD.

SEGA actually paid the Utopia guys in shares to stop producing pirate copies and their boot-disc (with the nice shiny reindeer), but I think piracy had done it's damage by then, there was already a few groups doing the same thing and ultimately the DC died - long before it's time IMO.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:43
Yeah but it was still killed off by a short sighted hardware dept.
Same with Amiga... both were cool machines.
Thank god Nintendo learnt this lesson.

Lzdude69
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 00:47
I get basci disc formats, just the way everyone is saying is you have to convert you program so the cube can read it. I know a smudge of of opengl, from playing quake, well I really play it, I tried to code a mod, but I quit

When I die...I want to be buried upside down...So thy critics can kiss my a$$...Oh yeah, Im not dying...
Supremacy
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 21:57
I have a DC, can you point me out links or stuff or articles so i can start programming stuff for it ?

Buy the way, how do i run snes games on dreamcast ? id love to play shock troopers and metal slug on my DC if i could.

Raven or wallab or anyway, point me out some info guys , plz

I will make urban chaos 2, ive already concepted the story, its my dream, i wont to go to muky foot
Van B
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Posted: 21st Jul 2004 22:24
dcemulation.com is the best DC site around - just look on the left column for DreamSNES, and read up on the rom burning tutorial too. It is very simple to get your SNES rom files working.

The site has numerous home dev site links too. I suggest the Quake1 port for an idea of what a hobbyist DC coder can do.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
Lzdude69
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2004 00:34
I know exactly how to put your program files on a cd-r for dreamcast!!



When I die...I want to be buried upside down...So thy critics can kiss my a$$...Oh yeah, Im not dying...

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