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Geek Culture / basic>>>

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Plastico
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:32
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I was talking to my neighbor about some stuff and mentioned I baught dark basic. he then told me to throw it out because basic is a fluke language and doesnt do anythung but give me bad habits. he also told me that what ever I make with basic can be achieved 100 fold with any other language out there.

?
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Neofish
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:34
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throw it away! it costs a lot!

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Preston C
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:35
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You're neighbor is half right/half wrong in my opinion. If you're a beginner to programming, you should start with a basic language to get everything down. It'll make everything easier, and give you some bad habits, but it will get you into the programming world, and give you plenty of experience. Then, when you're ready, you can move on to a much better language, such as C++ or Delphi, break out of those bad habits, and create better or faster applications.

Cheers,
Preston


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Plastico
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:37
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what are the bad habits though? he tried to explain the major differences between basic and C, but I wasnt following.
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Neofish
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:40
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tell him he's fat and shouldnt push his opinion on ppl who are beginners or will believe it fully etc

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Lzdude69
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:44
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I think DB is a great language, for people who want to make games. If you just want the plain, easy to use, console, then just get a copy of QBASIC, or if you have Win95, pull up DOS, and type in Qbasic, simple.
One thing about the Basic language though, as everyone knows, Basic is made up of, well english, words that we know anf use everyday, so it's as easy to use, as it is to remember. But you'll find, as soon as you move up to C++, things that were once easy, are going to be a bitch now. Go from Print "Hello World" to COUT << "Hello World" <<end1;


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Preston C
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:44 Edited at: 7th Aug 2004 12:45
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Quote: " what are the bad habits though?"


Dunno, gonna have to ask someone else that.

To me, honestly, programming is programming. There are no bad habits, there are no good habits. Its just programming. I mean, who set in stone what is a good habit and what is a bad habit when it comes to programming? Who was the all mighty dali llama guy person...thing that just declared what was right and wrong in programming?

Who did? No one did. No one in their right mind anyway.

Cheers,
Preston


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Plastico
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:53 Edited at: 7th Aug 2004 12:55
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Quote: "dali llama guy person"


lol nice

so C is like "actually" learning a new language?
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Dave J
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 12:56 Edited at: 7th Aug 2004 12:58
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Quote: "To me, honestly, programming is programming. There are no bad habits, there are no good habits. Its just programming. I mean, who set in stone what is a good habit and what is a bad habit when it comes to programming?"


It's common sense though. Bunching up all your lines of code, not tabbing them and using inconsistent spacing will make your program harder to read, especially for other programmers. This is a bad habit, not one you pickup from Basic though, usually picked up if you're a beginner and haven't been taught how to organize your code.

A good habit would be using hungarian notation and consistant variable names, this makes it easier to tell what type a variable is and what it's for. There's no law saying you have to do this, but it's still a 'good habit' to.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Lzdude69
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 13:35
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Quote: "It's common sense though. Bunching up all your lines of code, not tabbing them and using inconsistent spacing will make your program harder to read, especially for other programmers. "


I dont hand out my code to other programmers. If I can read it, and so can the computer, I dont care what other programmers think.


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Dave J
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 13:46
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Can I ask you this then? Do you tab your code and use line breaks?


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Preston C
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 13:48
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@Exeat: You make a good point. Let me rephrase my comment:

There are no bad habits, there are no good habits, just common sense when it comes to programming.

Now that sounds more correct than before, doesn't it? Thanks for that

Cheers,
Preston


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Plastico
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 14:20
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he also mentioned another thing, he told me to stay away from Visual basic (spelling?) he told me that is the worst of all languages. lol I kinda laughed at him because he told me he tried Visual basic and it scared him for life.
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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 15:21
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Well, he is entitled to his opinion, but your choice should be based on what you want to create, and to what extent. If you just want to be a bedroom coder making a few small games/apps on the weekends, use Visual/Dark/Q BASIC. If you want to actually get into the industry, see below:

1. Learn C++
2. Pretend you never knew C++ and learn it again
3. Go to college and major in computer science
4. Find a job.
5. After being fired for h4cking on the job, repeat step 4.

There you go. Of course, this is coming from someone who hasnt even started highschool yet (3 weeks... sigh).


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Plastico
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 15:44
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wow, im going into my sophmore year this fall.
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HZence
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 15:47
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Quote: "what are the bad habits though"


He's probably referring to "GoTo" and "GoSub", a.k.a. spaghetti code. Thing is, C and C++ have those commands too. All you have to do is...don't use them!

If that's not what he's referring to, then I don't know what he is referring to, and I've been using basic for six years, three different versions. I've been learning C++ and HTML for a year now and I'd say basic has helped me.

So tell him to shove a bannanna in his buttocks.


Ausukusa :: Programmer/Storyboard Assistant
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 20:59
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Dark Basic is a good beginner language, and then move on to C+++++++ whatever. You don't get into bad habbits by using Basic, it makes it easier to learn c++++++++++++++.

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Neofish
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Posted: 7th Aug 2004 21:34
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bbq his ass!

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Plastico
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 01:40
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lol, thanks for all the advice.
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Manticore Night
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 02:55 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 02:56
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Quote: "he also mentioned another thing, he told me to stay away from Visual basic (spelling?) he told me that is the worst of all languages. lol I kinda laughed at him because he told me he tried Visual basic and it scared him for life."
A$$hole! That was my first language. It doesn't get you into bad habits. My code is pretty badly organised, but I can read it, and so can the computer so I'm good.

<edit>I'd acctually say to use VB before DB. It's better for learning</edit>

It's amazing how much TV has raised us. (Bart Simpson)
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Hell Dragonz43
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 05:34 Edited at: 8th Aug 2004 05:35
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Ok... DBP is powerful and easy. Not easy as in a newb programming language, but easy as in not to confusing to learn. Its easy to learn, powerful, not time consuming, and fun to make games with. But some people just don't like it.

-My Game Website:--------------------|
http://www.freewebs.com/mycpugames/
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 06:07
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Well, as others have said, he is half right and half wrong.

If you want to make games, then DB is the way to go. Using a "classic" language such as C,C++,Delphi, Visual Basic, Java etc. to try to make some of the 3-D games that we make all the time here, would be too hard and take way to long to accomplish. I mean, some people on this site have made commercial quality gamesby themselves! With any other language, this would not be possible!

Yes, DB has it's limits! It is not the best languae in the world for networked business applications, and it also looses speed from being such a high-level language.

But, on top of all of this, DarkBASIC is FUN!! You might not break into the industry with it, but most of the realistic ones of us on here are only here for fun!

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Lzdude69
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 06:44
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Quote: "Can I ask you this then? Do you tab your code and use line breaks?
"


Uhh...yeah. I still dont let other people read my code, unless we're on a team, or I need serious help.


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Plastico
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 07:01
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Quote: " you want to make games, then DB is the way to go. Using a "classic" language such as C,C++,Delphi, Visual Basic, Java etc. to try to make some of the 3-D games that we make all the time here, would be too hard and take way to long to accomplish."


I dont get it then..how are these languages superior to DB? or basic for that matter? I think basic was a great idea. there should be a super basic language that could compete with C/++. is delphi similar to C/++?
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 07:14
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The reason a simple English-based language cannot compete with B/C/C++ is because C++ communitates directly to the CPU in Assembly, which is just one step away from Machine Language (the unreadable, pure coputer language). When you get a language like Basic, the language is doing a lot of work for you behind the scenes. Particularly DarkBASIC, as DB does tons of work behind the scenes for you. For each line of code, the compiler might do the equivelent of 100 or more lines of code in Assembly. That extra work eats up LOTS of CPU space. That is why a program that is made in DB may run slower than a commercial program that is much more complex.

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Plastico
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 07:18
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ahh I see

so assembly was the first computer language im thinking?
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 07:21
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Basicaly. It is the most direct himan readable computer language. It is also notoriously the hardest as well.

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 07:24
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The very first was punch card and orientaion of the vacuum tubes lol

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Dave J
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:38
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Quote: "[quote]Can I ask you this then? Do you tab your code and use line breaks?"


Uhh...yeah. I still dont let other people read my code, unless we're on a team, or I need serious help.[/quote]

Hence why it's easy to read. I know a LOT of other people who don't tab and space their code because they're in the 'bad habit' and end up unable to read their own code. That's the point I'm getting at.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:53
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Wait, I'm confused now. Seems like BASIC would enforce you to notate, space, and break up your lines. Is that a bad habit? Or am I @$$ backwards?

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 09:54
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stuff like goto is bad

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Lzdude69
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:11
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@spaghetti dude-Well...DBC does'nt translate a thing to assembly code, it works at runtime, duh.

@N30F15H-What the hell did you say? I cant understand you, or your name.


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:36
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lol stuff like the command goto is bad practice: use gosub

and my name is neofish in semi-1337

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Dave J
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:49
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Quote: "Wait, I'm confused now. Seems like BASIC would enforce you to notate, space, and break up your lines. Is that a bad habit? Or am I @$$ backwards?"


No, that's a good habit. One of the reasons why we're saying the 'neighbour' has no clue lol.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Lzdude69
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:56
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@N30F15H-Now I see it.

So in other words he is @$$ backwards.


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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 10:57
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yup, note to everyone, if m names to long just writ neo tis quicker

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Plastico
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:26
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questions for you all.

I googled on some assembly language and what not, is there a way I can get some samples of assembly to see what it looks like?

Im in a frenzy of interest in all these languages, I thought there were only 3 languages in general; basic, C/++, and java. but here im seeing theres pascal, fortran, about 300 basics, python, delphi...whats the freaken difference, do we really need all these languages to do the same things.?

o and I also downloaded a nice little C++ compiler, and am looking at C++ coding, and im starting to realize the rediculous amount of time Im going to be spending learning the language. Ive spent about 30 minutes looking over tutorials and havent picked up anything. I spent 30 minutes looking at DB tuts and learned handfuls.

I think im going to stick with DB/basic until ive mastered it. I find that when you master something you can achieve anything. I made campaigns for starcraft and age of kings, and after 4 years of doing this I could do anything I wanted basically.
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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:35
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starcraft rules but i got bored after 2 hours of variables

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:41
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@AlienMan:

Quote: "@spaghetti dude-Well...DBC does'nt translate a thing to assembly code, it works at runtime, duh. "


Look at what I said:

Quote: "For each line of code, the compiler might do the equivelent of 100 or more lines of code in Assembly"


"might do the equivelent". Not that it does,duh.

What I am saying is that DB is a high-level language, which no one can argue that it is not. I was simply trying to inform Plastico that in C++, you must do MUCH more work to accomplish the same task that DB specializes in, which apperently, he figured out himself.

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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mr dr
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 11:48
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http://www.erg.abdn.ac.uk/users/gorry/eg2069/assembly.html

this is something google turned up for examples of assembly

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Plastico
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 12:00
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so...does anyone here know assembly, or is this the advance of the advanced?
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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 12:02
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probably not

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 12:04
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Hey, if you can program assembly, more power to you, but if I can avoid it for the rest of my life, I'll be happy

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 12:09
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lol, yeah whats the point of learning such a slow to write, complex code?

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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It makes the fastest programs (well kind of). It speaks directly to the CPU in machine language

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Neofish
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 12:24
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slow to write it tho

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Sir Spaghetti Code
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 12:33
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very. I guess, just like C, you can get used to it and get fast. I mean, as fast as on can go with Assembly

Fraggles where quite the scary lot...
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Neofish
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lol, i considered learning C++ but i realised, for me (not others), it's just not worth the effort, im sticking with webdesign and a bit of dbp

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Plastico
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Posted: 8th Aug 2004 13:22
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here is a site I picked up. It mentions how the great programmers knew assembly, and were able to code in any language because of it.

http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?RealProgrammer
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Pincho Paxton
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I have done a small piece of assembly programming. I found that I had to write everything down on paper before I put it into the computer. All I did was to make a joystick move a sprite around the screen. Took a day writing the program on paper, and 10 minutes to put it into the computer.

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