What will it cost?... - GameCreators Forum

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SoulMan

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 11:29

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JNR,
TGC wrote FPSC and as far as they are concerned it is a program to sell. I don't see what's wrong with a percentage as if you don't sell a copy, you are not obligated to pay. However, TGC main concern is profit and by them making a profit on what you sell using their engine is fair . How do you think id software makes their money? One game every five years? No. How many games have come out using the Quake 3 engine. Well let's take a look. SOF2, Star Wars Outcast, Star Wars Academy, Call of Duty, etc... They continue to pull royalties off those games. A flat fee, while it seems nice, TGC would have to push hard for selling many copies of FPSC and hope that a ton of them go with the flat fee just to continue making money. With the percentage and with the idea of the Bronze, Silver, Gold and Platinum levels, the more games you sell, the more money you make, the more money TGC makes and everyone is happy. So trying to sit there and say, I'm not going to buy it if it has a percentage anything in it is a bad stance to take. First, TGC plans to offer both the flat fee and percentage. I support a percentage as that would give money back to TGC to continue working on their excellent product line and to continue to support Indie Developers. I'm not sure if you realize how much work has gone into this and to have something this well done and easy to use is not heard of in this industry. Game Programming is extreamly hard for many folks and chances like this don't come very often.
Thade,
Conitec sells their engine for commerical at $199 and you still have limits for the number of people that can connect to a server. Only four. Come on, for $140 less than that you can get Dark Basic Pro and program a sixteen player game or even more. Plus you are still required to display the logo. If you want something that is equal to Dark Basic Pro, you better be willing to fork over $900 for it. And even then they still limit you on how much support you can get, 12 months. What a joke. And you are still on Direct X 8.1. Come on. Let's get with the Direct X 9.0C. Conitec has a small niche and will never gain any ground to what's being done by TGC.
SoulMan

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 12:49

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Let me get this straight. You want a fully, quickly, and easily customizable game engine that does most of the work for you with little actual coding for only $250? lol Thats insane. Why don't you make its equivalent and sell it for $250 then. When you see all the work that goes into it you'll start thinking $800 or more too.

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SeaScape

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 13:10 Edited at: 27th Oct 2004 14:29

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@ Soulman

I did not say that it was wrong for TGC to make money off of FPS Creator - no where in what I have written did I ever say that. I don't mind paying more, but I definitely want an UNRESTRICTED commercial license. Please also don't put words in my mouth - I don't appreciate it. Yes, I do realise how much work they have put into FPS Creator - I am not retarded nor am I stupid. Also, why is it a bad stance if I stand up and say no to percentage royalties? I am allowed to voice my opinion over something I am going to invest in. You may not care about my views, but please respect them. If you don't like what I have written, or someone else for that matter, then don't read it. Note: My tone is one of respect.

Of course, I want TGC to make money off of THEIR creation, but let's be very realistic here. I have seen a number of good 3D engines fail horribly for charging too much to developers. You have to learn from mistakes that other companies have made. Also, TGC isn't no id Software (no disrespect intended). id can charge whatever they want, because they have a vastly superior 3D engine compared to most out there.

If you want developers to sell commercial games with your game engine, you have to make it attractive or you will scare them off in droves. Making the price really attractive and affordable to developers would be wonderful, as this would open up the market for TGC's products even more. That's my view. Too many restrictions and high cost = less users of your software. Common sense and simple economics...

I don't mind paying more for FPS Creator, but I am not going to pay a ridiculous amount, nor am I going to pay any percentage to anyone. I have a maximum amount for an unrestricted commercial license - after that, sorry. I'm looking out for my interests, because you or no one else will. That's my story and I am sticking to it.

Back to studying <whoosh!>

Note: I recently purchased DB Pro (boxed) and the three extensions that are out right now on the main page. I plan on buying all of the other add-ons when I can afford it, so I have a huge interest in FPS Creator too. Just because someone doesn't want any percentage fees, doesn't mean that person doesn't support TGC fully.

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SeaScape

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 13:24 Edited at: 27th Oct 2004 14:26

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@ Lost In Thought

I made a suggestion on the price and I am even willing to pay $500 (or more if I have to) - doesn't mean TGC has to abide by it. Sheesh! You seem to have all the answers, don't you? hehehe

Since you are being a very respectful person, why don't you program it and show everyone?

Note: My tone is one of respect.

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Lost in Thought

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 14:16

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If I could do that now I wouldn't need to work all of these hours every week

I am learning slowly but surely though

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SeaScape

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 15:21

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@ Lost in Thought

Join the club!

I just watched the videos of FPS Creator again and I think this program is going to be simply amazing. To import your own textures, 3D objects, etc. is going to be so very cool. TGC should be commended for making such an awesome software package. I just hope it is affordable for me. For non-commercial use, the prices I have seen are too low. Should be at least $89, the same as DB Pro, but that's my opinion anyway. hehehe

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SoulMan

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 16:08 Edited at: 27th Oct 2004 16:09

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Quote: "I don't and I may not buy it if there is a percentage anything in it. Sorry..."

JNR, this is what you said. I see this as you saying you won't buy it if there is a percentage deal for commerical purposes. If what you meant was, I won't buy it if they only support percentages, I would have shot back with, they are doing both percentage and flat fee. And that would have been that. I think what we need here people is to get outside, get some fresh air and come back here. We need to put together a Faq and pin it at the top of this board or something. Maybe if Rich would be kind enough to put some more information together on what we are looking at for fee's and such. Or if someone could pull some information together for us in the US as we could not make it to the convention.
SoulMan

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SeaScape

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Posted: 27th Oct 2004 16:20 Edited at: 27th Oct 2004 16:32

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@ Soulman

You wrote this...

Quote: "I am interested in a licensing program. How about a four step license program. Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum.
Here are the benifits of the levels.
Bronze - Developer keeps 20% TGC Keeps 80%
Silver - Developer keeps 35% TGC Keeps 65%
Gold - Developer keeps 50% TGC Keeps 50%
Platinum - Developer Keeps 65% TGC Keeps 35%"

That is absolutely asinine (the extremely or utterly foolish meaning, not the other one) in my opinion, and I will not support such a pricing scheme like this in any way, shape, or form. I would never give anyone 80% of the profit of any one of my programs, no matter which tool I used to create it. What is the point of creating a commercial game, if I am going to be hit with a royalty fee this high for using a tool (which is what it is)? Benefits? Not for me - that is for sure!

You are forgetting something... Some people have left other platforms and/or programming packages to create better software with better tools. I left programming in REALbasic Professional and FutureBasic on the Mac because of the damned yearly licensing requirements to get any updates for the commercial bug-ridden programming packages (especially REALbasic!). This is why I chose DarkBASIC Professional - plus the enemy (Blitz Basic) sucks when compared to DB Pro.

Piss a lot of developers off and they will leave the DB Pro/FPS Creator world in droves. That is reality... Percentages and subscriptions turn me off in a big way, and I know others out there think the same thing but are too afraid to post their thoughts here.

TGC is going to commit suicide as a company with a pricing scheme like this, if they are seriously considering implementing your idea in its present form. Also, programming a software program is a one time thing with updates along the way for the life of the program. It doesn't cost hundreds of dollars to sell and support that same piece of software to another person. Trying to be like Microsoft is not something I would want to emulate at all. Leaves a bad taste in my mouth...

The idea is simply horrible and will turn many people away from even considering purchasing a commercial license. Then what is left after implementing a royalty scheme like this? TGC is going to have an awesome product, but not used to its full capacity by a commercial developer that will take the time to create massive FPS games. It is their choice, but if they listen to their customers carefully, they will see that there are people that want a REASONABLY priced, unrestricted commercial license of FPS Creator. Anything less would be a slap in the face to all new developers that have picked up DB Pro lately to create awesome software for the Windows platform. They would lose any respect from these people, including myself, if such a pricing scheme like this is introduced.

I have spent about $200+ now on DB Pro and some add-ons. I am happy to support TGC with all the planned purchases I am going to make of their other add-ons. When I pay some of my bills down, I am going to take a lot of money and buy all the lovely add-ons I want (which is all of them!) I want FPS Creator too, and I am going to say it again, but with a reasonably-priced, unrestricted commercial license. Anything less is not acceptable... That's my opinion - don't like it? Too bad...

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SoulMan

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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 12:59 Edited at: 28th Oct 2004 13:00

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JNR,
You missed my post above in which I said and I quote myself

Quote: "First, TGC plans to offer both the flat fee and percentage. I support a percentage as that would give money back to TGC to continue working on their excellent product line and to continue to support Indie Developers."

So they are offering both a flat fee license and a percentage. Wether they use my idea or not it's up to them. I have actually gone through and calculated out what would happen if you sold a game for $40 at 125,000 units. That would be a total of $5,000,000. And using what I have said and from my above post, that would come out for you at around 43% and TGC 57%. You would end up with $2,139,966. Honestly, is that bad? Part of the deal of a percentage would come the fact that TGC would publish and distribute your game. If you did the flat fee, I don't think that would even be an option for them to publish. The figures are a little on dream side of things and yes will probably not happen. And you know what, what I have suggested will probably not be the end result of what is decided upon. I was mearly suggesting the level base as that I something that I deal with at work. I work as a Tech Specialist for a account recovery agency. That's collections for those that may hear that on a day to day base. The collectors are on a similar level base system and we do extreamly well. The minimum to collect is $20,000, but we have guys pulling in $100,000 a month on Credit Card collections. They typically earn huge commission checks on that but it's usually in the 10% range. So if someone collects $100,000 they will get a $10,000 bonus check on top of their hourly pay. But the collection agency gets 32% and the rest goes back to the trust that it pays for recouping the money.

Quote: "but with a reasonably-priced, unrestricted commercial license. Anything less is not acceptable..."

This is not your choice. You didn't write the program. The flat fee might cost more than the percentage deal. The reason that TGC did not charge a royalty on Dark Basic Pro is due to the fact it's a programming language. This however is not. It's a Game Creation Tool and while you can argue that DBPro is a game creation tool you can also write applications with it. There's nothing holding you back on that. With FPSC however you are limited to creating games only. So in return to using their engine to create a game that you want to sell and make money on using their engine, you only want to pay a one time flat fee and make a ton of money off Lee's hard work to make it easy for you? Why don't you write a program that creates games, let someone pay you a $50 license fee for unrestricted use and then watch them go off into the sunset selling games that makes them millions while you hold on to that $50 check that you worked so hard for. Think about that. Do you think they would want to continue to support you?
No.
SoulMan

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SeaScape

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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 14:48

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Quote: "Why don't you write a program that creates games, let someone pay you a $50 license fee for unrestricted use and then watch them go off into the sunset selling games that makes them millions while you hold on to that $50 check that you worked so hard for. Think about that."

@ SoulMan

I have thought about it, and here is my conclusion: You don't even make sense anymore.

Where did I write that I would pay a $50 license fee for unrestricted commercial use of FPS Creator? I'll tell you where - no where. You are making up garbage again...

Last time I checked, I said I would pay around a maximum of $500 US.

Sorry, obviously you don't know that the scripting within FPS Creator is a form of a programming language.

Before you go replying back at me, make sure you get your story straight... Sheesh!

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SoulMan

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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:12

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JNR,
You don't make any sense. I was using examples. If you can't see that was an example you are not reading the entire post.

Quote: "Why don't you write a program that creates games, let someone pay you a $50 license fee for unrestricted use and then watch them go off into the sunset selling games that makes them millions while you hold on to that $50 check that you worked so hard for. Think about that. Do you think they would want to continue to support you?
No."

Where does it say in that paragraph that I said you said that you would only pay $50 for a license. The point of the paragraph was to put you in Lee's place. Anyone could have seen that.

And yes I know that you can script in FPSC and that scripting is a form of programming. What I was making a point again was that this program is not used in the same manner as Dark Basic Pro is. Dark Basic Pro is a programming language. FPSC is not. It's a game creation program that while yes it has scripting, you will never be able to do with it as you can with Dark Basic Pro. The difference is that it's using an engine that you cannot directly change but can change data that feeds into it using scripting, but you are still bound to the limits of what the engine sets. So for instance, you can't script in physics into the game(Not yet at least), but you can script what happens when you open a certain door or if you break a glass window.
So JNR, before you even reply to me, read my entire post and
THINK before you write back.
SoulMan

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Shadow Angel

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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 18:19

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.......................

WWW.GEOCITIES.COM/PARABOX_STUDIOS :: Current Project - Future Rebel

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RickV

TGC Development Director

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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 22:39

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Hi all, clearly we need to clarify our position because this forum thread has lost the plot somewhat.

As Rich has suggested we are looking at a non-commercial use version priced at $49.99. This we feel is a fair price that should generate large volume sales for FPSC. Our ultimate plans are for the title to be in the retail sector next year, so the price had to be realistic for that market too.

For those of you who want to sell your creations we will offer you a number of routes to market:

* Full commercial license, unlimited titles, Price TBC
* Full commercial license, single title, Price TBC
* Web/Shareware license, single title, Price TBC
* Re-sell via TGC website. Royatly split 60% (Author) / 40% (TGC)

(TBC = To Be Confirmed)

I cannot be any clearer at this stage. I still need to discuss pricing with Lee and the other team members in more detail. By opening up a range of publishing options we will hopefully please our customers.

Please continue to post your comments, I am reading them to see what our community needs.

Regards,

Rick Vanner
Commercial Director
The Game Creators Ltd

Commercial Director
TGC Team
[Read "The POWER of NOW by Eckhart Tolle". There is no past or future, only NOW!]

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JerBil

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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 05:16

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To me, the best solution would be the Re-Sell via TGC. This provides the best value for what I pay for FPSC against my bank account, and if my program is viable, 40% is a nice return. Also, the main part of my efforts can go into game development and not have to worry about "selling."

-JerBil

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SeaScape

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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 06:29 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 06:30

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@ RickV

Sounds good to me - just have to wait to see what the price of the full commercial license (unlimited titles) will be.

This is what is needed - a number of choices - because what was being suggested earlier in this thread was way too restrictive.

I'm on board, now that the position has been clarified somewhat.

I am looking forward to the EA release...

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SoulMan

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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 09:21

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See JNR, is that so hard now? Heck, the Percentage rate is much better than what I was even thinking it would be.
SoulMan

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SeaScape

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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 15:48

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@ SoulMan

No, it's not hard. I agree the percentage is much better now, as it is more fair to the small developer and including TGC. I want to see TGC make it big with FPS Creator, and with them pushing this proposal, I think they will do quite well.

As for me, I still want a full commercial license though.

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SoulMan

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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 16:59

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Yeah, I think I might go for the full commerical, but I will see. I might just try to sell it through TGC first and then move on to a full commercial or I might try the first way and do it all full commercial.
We will just need to see the price.
SoulMan

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blanky

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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 03:36

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I think the Resell-via-TGC is really a brill idea!

If you go to your average publisher with a game and you are a single developer, chances are the contracts and everything will be filled with loopholes with the result that the publisher:

. Gets about 25%-45% of the money from the games...
. OWNS THE RIGHTS TO THE GAME, and can get another games dev. team to work on the sequel..
. etc.

And.. do you know how hard it is to get a publisher to take a game from an indie developer seriously?

I'd resell any day! Hell, I'd probably let TGC have all the money if i got my name and my website written in big on it (grin)

[img src=http://blanky.pt-web.net/ddd.gif] >::p

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MattWorley

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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 04:36

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Hi,

I'm really looking forward to FPSC and I think the proposed pricing plan is perfect. Who remembers the days of ZX Spectrums, Commodores and the BBC home computers? Many homes had one or another, and they allowed the home user to easily learn and program their own games. At little or even no cost people could write their very own game. But now they are a thing of the past and most games are on consoles, or the PC. Without programs like DBPro and FPSC etc, the average home user would still be left unable to write their own games. Why should we have to pay hundreds of pounds for that privilege? But yes, I agree, should you want it for commercial purposes, then the price must be paid.

I can't wait for it's release !! If the price is right, I'll be buying it straight away.

Cheers,

Matt

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uman

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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 04:55

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"Re-sell via TGC website. Royatly split 60% (Author) / 40% (TGC)"

Seems fair to me. That would fit the bill for most users I would think.

For more adventurous types - we just have to wait and see what the other licence fees are - seems that TGC software has always been reasonably priced to date and we have no reason to expect the licence fees to be any different.

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