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FPSC Classic Product Chat / [LOCKED] I Want It And I Want It Now

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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 01:54
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just watched the video's on the fpsc ( man i was blow away with how easy that looked, my db pro is in the bin and im now waiting for the web site to open so as i can give ya my credit card details , so pleeeeeeeeaaasasee hurry up and take my money.......... take the whole lot,, (phew ok calm down) ok i got my db back out the bin cos im sure it will come in handy but i am really impressed really really really impressed, you have done what euro press tried to do with jamagic, but you guys have done it so cool man give your selfs a big pat on the back. ok ill stop greesing now but can i have a copy now ( ill pay of course but it looks good)

IMAGE is EVERYTHING
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Mnemonix
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 03:49
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The 3d chat is coming...
Rights For Traffic Cones!
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uman
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 05:58
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I like your enthusiasm. FPScreator looks like it may end up being the tool indie developers have needed very badly for a long time.

There is not another like it as far as I am aware and if its developed further I would think it could have a major impact on the indie scene. Hopefully, the makers having had the opportunity will have deveoped it from the ground up to accommodate future moves to include all the features an indie game may require.

We are still unaware of the full potential. It seems though that they may have had the foresight to do so.

I would hope that no major feature is overlooked as time progresses - not only as I would like to have some missing features included for my own game deveopment, but also as I would like to see someone push the bounds of what is possible for small developers and this tool looks like doing that.
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DJxDJ
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 15:39
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The last program of this magnitude that I remember seeing a long time ago (like '96) was the Pie3D Game Creation System. It was also very easy to use but had a lot of advanced features for those who could code. FPS Creator blows it away in terms of features and technology (it's 8 years later, so duh), but I think it will create a similar type of community from the Pie3D game-making community back in the day. They even had their own dial-in BBS. *cries* I miss the old days!

Can't wait for FPSC though.
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IanM
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Posted: 28th Oct 2004 22:33
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It doesn't seem to be.

I'm primarily a coder - after what I saw at the convention, I'll definitely be getting it. There's something there to please pretty much anyone interested in this type of game - from the beginner just pasting in rooms to modellers and artists, and coders like myself.

The coding system is a bit 'low level', but that can easily be overcome or even remedied.

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 00:21 Edited at: 29th Oct 2004 00:22
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well... not to put a damper on the party or anything, but i'm a lil skeptical...

for a couple of reasons...

(1) most click together solutions haven't really worked in the past...
(2) this sorta thing will encourage a slew clone type fps that look like cookie cutter, click together stuff...
(3) i don't see much difference in coding, making the models, making the artwork, and developing your own game as opposed to clicking one together...
(4) this is nice for personal entertainment, but for 'real' game making...


but, in all honesty, the videos do show that they have come up with a novel means of editing a level and placing objects, and if the ability is there (as indicated) to customize the content as well as the actions...

who knows, maybe this will indeed turn out to be something quite usefull.


--Mike
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Kentaree
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 00:27
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Everythig depends on the power of the scripting language underneath. If it is powerful enough, anything is possible. We can add our own media and all, all we have to do is use it to set up the levels. The only difference this is from programming our own FPS is that the basic collision/3D/games engine is there, along with an editor that you'd usually have to make anyway, unless you like hardcoding levels.

After watching both movies (3 hours total download for 20 minutes worth of video ), I feel this can be a very promising piece of software.

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Shadow Angel
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 00:50
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I'm the same way you are:

PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSEEEEEEEEEEEEE?????????????????

I'm like locked in a cage!


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uman
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 01:36
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It maybe true that FPSC may indeed encourage many clone type games and that is useful for those who want to limit their input.....but it seems to offer more than that to those who wish to take it further. With a good storyline, some game design ingenuity and more effort it seems like there will be nothing to stop one from investing more time and creating a very individual production. Its really down to the user.
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IanM
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 06:49
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That's very true, but the power of the scripting language, and the ability to add your own media relatively simply should make the standard clone a little rarer.

In his video interview, Lee did say that he wanted to see lots of new models by the users.

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 06:52
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Quote: "this sorta thing will encourage a slew clone type fps that look like cookie cutter, click together stuff..."

Yes - its something that I have mentioned before.

He who knows the cat becomes his slave; he who knows the dog becomes his King.
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FROST Blade
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 07:00
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man i cant wait till it comes out
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Shadow Angel
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Posted: 29th Oct 2004 22:45
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Me to!


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DMXtra
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Posted: 30th Oct 2004 23:02 Edited at: 30th Oct 2004 23:14
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Quote: "
(1) most click together solutions haven't really worked in the past...
"


Most haven't sure, but it comes down to what you can control.
I think version 1.5 is going to be great because if there are some changes that need to be changed you will know this by 1.0, so there is plenty of time for changes and a lot of this is down to how flexible the scripting language is.

Quote: "
(2) this sorta thing will encourage a slew clone type fps that look like cookie cutter, click together stuff...
"


Sure, I am sure some of the free FPS's will be close to the same, but it's all up to the scripting language to provide the power as well as physics engine to provide the difference. Besides, the games that people end up selling via TGC should be great and a great sale for both the author and TGC, they should be different. Are all 3D-RAD games the same? Do they all feel or look alike?

There are good artists out there working on media, models, and .FX shaders, combined with a good programmer to put together some good scripts, it could be a different ballgame and when they add in a terrain engine or future features it will help things be even more different in the future and honestly for $49.95 US dollars, that isn't too bad at all.

Quote: "
(3) i don't see much difference in coding, making the models, making the artwork, and developing your own game as opposed to clicking one together...
"


The difference is that you can build it easily via a RAD tool so things can be developed quickly, collision is handled for you, you have default A.I scripts that can modify or do yourself. You design all of this visually.

Besides you can build your levels in FPSC and then load them into DBPro and go crazy with them as well. So you are getting a game creation system and a level builder for only $49.95 US dollars. Not bad at all. Think Maplet on steroids here, much, much, much more than maplet. You can walk through your creation as you are building it.

Quote: "
(4) this is nice for personal entertainment, but for 'real' game making...
"


Well as time passes it will become more advanced. Since it's built in DBPro as new technologies in DBPro are introduced they should also appear in FPSC. Also FPSC is going to grow and become less limited and more expandable over time.

Along with what Rick has planned of having professional games being sold by TGC where the author get 60 percent of the profits and TGC gets 40 percent, I honestly don't think that is a bad deal at all.

As for real game making, you can't make games in UnrealED? I am confused here. This is what this really is, this is UnrealED with it's own built in engine. If you don't have Unreal Tournament 2004 you can't use UnrealED to legally make levels for it as you have to own the game. Here you just buy this development system and you can make your own levels for games in DBPro, or make your own game in FPSC.

Also do you think games that are produced VIA the unreal engine and use UnrealED, even older versions create games that are cloned from professional mods?

Imagine if full on terrains are added in from Mike's new Advanced Terrain Plus (not like the outdoor terrain in FPSC currently) and then vechicles can be added in with full on physics, these are just some of the things that might be possible in the future as an upgrade, I am sure you could think of even more. See I am sure you can already see the cookie cutter issue not really being an issue that much.

I think starting from 1.5 of FPSC and beyond (as time goes on limits will be less and less and features will be more and more) so I think this is going to be huge.

I bet this sells better than BlitzMax.

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 00:37
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@Red Ocktober

As you probably appreciate, FPSC *is* mainly aimed at the 3DGameMaker audience, except that it does have the ability to go quite a way beyond that.

I don't really think that FPSC is suitable for creating commercial quality games, but as it will probably sell for around the price of a normal videogame, that isn't a problem.

Quote: "
(1) most click together solutions haven't really worked in the past...
"


Only time will tell I guess.

Quote: "
(2) this sorta thing will encourage a slew clone type fps that look like cookie cutter, click together stuff...
"


Yes, but it will keep the authors happy.

Quote: "
(3) i don't see much difference in coding, making the models, making the artwork, and developing your own game as opposed to clicking one together...
"


If you did it in DBPro, you would have to create a level editor, write the foundations of the AI system, write the whole entity system and so on. FPSC provides these tricky, dull bits for you.


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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 00:38 Edited at: 31st Oct 2004 00:39
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Quote: "not like the outdoor terrain in FPSC currently"


FPSC doesn't have outdoor terrains yet.

Quote: "I bet this sells better than BlitzMax"


That is a little unfair, they are not at all comparable products.


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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 09:08 Edited at: 31st Oct 2004 09:12
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Rob and DMX... lets hope that your super enthusiam will be born out by a really super development tool... only time will tell...

on the surface it looks like just what the doctor ordered... but me thinks that it'll still boil down to making your own content and writing your own code... if you want your game to look unique and act like you want it to... and i don't see how much different it'll be for at this than what DBPro developers are already doin.

who knows... this may be THE ONE

but i've seen this sort of thing before... the holy grail of RAD development... you all have...

but hey, i'm willing to wait and see before i pass judgement... before i decide whether or not it's for me...

--Mike
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DMXtra
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 15:32
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Quote: "
FPSC doesn't have outdoor terrains yet.
"


In the video you see an outdoor environment (towards the end)
and also rich says you can do outdoor scenes it's just
not going to be like Advanced Terain Plus or anything like
what is in an RPG like Everquest II.

Quote: "
That is a little unfair, they are not at all comparable products.
"


I don't think it is unfair at all. With BlitzMax you have a programming language that is on Linux, Windows, and Macintosh OS X platforms. With FPSC it's only on a Windows Platform.

BlitzMax is also only 2D only at the moment it comes out so it will hurt sales until the 3D version comes out and then some people might not want to buy BlitzMax as they own Blitz Plus or Blitz 3D and that might be fine for them.

So, yes, I think it's a fair comparison in sales only.

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DMXtra
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Posted: 31st Oct 2004 15:39 Edited at: 31st Oct 2004 15:41
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Quote: "
but me thinks that it'll still boil down to making your own content and writing your own code...
"


Well, it's going to be like that yes, but what's wrong with that?
Isn't that how it always is?

The more work you have to put in, the better.
I mean of course it's not going to make a game for
just by thought, you have to put some work into it,
it gives you big head start though.

Imagine making the entire system of Octree's and portals
yourself and having to do all the other programming as well.
This saves you a ton of time, but you are still going to
have to plan things right and work hard to create a great game.

Instead of focusing on technology, you can now focus on the
planning and the creation of the game you have always wanted
to create.

Have you ever made an Octree engine with portals before?
I know I haven't.

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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 02:44 Edited at: 1st Nov 2004 02:44
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DMX... there's nothing wrong with it... like i said, that's what people are doing now... with DBPro... and they will still have to do a lot of that with FPSC (as it looks right now) if they don't want their games to look like the guy or gal next door's games...

and they don't have to write their own octree engine if they don't use FPSC exclusively... DBPro, for example, has BSP already written for em to use... as do most game engines (have some sort of scenegraph routine), and a few 3D oriented programming languages as well...

and trust me, if you think that an average DB Pro developer is focusing on technology, then order the DX9 sdk and fire up your favorite c++ compiler... and get a real taste of some technology.

DBPro, even though it's 'just a programming language', does indeed insulate you from a lot of the lower level aspects of directx... (the technology, as you put it)... to think that it doesn't is naive... to say that it doesn't is misinformation...

also, you refute the idea that comparing FPSC to BMax is unfair... then you go ahead and point out the differences that makes it obvious that it's unfair... uuuhhh, not a great way to prove a point your are trying to convince people of...

--Mike
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DMXtra
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 19:47 Edited at: 1st Nov 2004 19:51
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Quote: "
DMX... there's nothing wrong with it... like i said, that's what people are doing now... with DBPro... and they will still have to do a lot of that with FPSC (as it looks right now) if they don't want their games to look like the guy or gal next door's games...
"


So, if there is nothing wrong with it, then what is your point?

FPSC has a lightmapper and it has CSG so you can build
your own levels and objects. It's more than what you saw.

Combine Maplet with an Octree/Portal level system to
create your own game or to export to DBPro and this
is what you have. You can use prefabs already made
or create your own.

Quote: "
and they don't have to write their own octree engine if they don't use FPSC exclusively... DBPro, for example, has BSP already written for em to use... as do most game engines (have some sort of scenegraph routine), and a few 3D oriented programming languages as well...
"


yeah, but read what I said above. It helps you
create those levels. Its kind of like a level
designer without the BSP part and uses Octrees
and portals instead. It's more than just a game
creator, its a level builder as well. It's both.

Quote: "
and trust me, if you think that an average DB Pro developer is focusing on technology, then order the DX9 sdk and fire up your favorite c++ compiler... and get a real taste of some technology.
"


I never said anything about this and never
doubted this at all.

I don't know where this came from.

Quote: "
DBPro, even though it's 'just a programming language', does indeed insulate you from a lot of the lower level aspects of directx... (the technology, as you put it)... to think that it doesn't is naive... to say that it doesn't is misinformation...
"


I never doubted that, sure it insulates you from directx,
thats the entire point of it. Get it? Surely, you know
by now that your 3D RAD insulates you even more.

Over time more and more directx functionality will
be exposed and more technology will be created in DBPro.

After 1.5 of FPSC, there will be returning of building
technology in DBPro with DirectX 9.0c and beyond
(of this I am quite sure). However, even with all
of this it still will insulate you from DX, that is
the entire point of using it.

Also because of Ravey's DARKSDK, you can use C++
with DBPro's engine if you don't want to use the
DBPro language itself.

I think all of this is a win for everyone.

Quote: "
also, you refute the idea that comparing FPSC to BMax is unfair... then you go ahead and point out the differences that makes it obvious that it's unfair... uuuhhh, not a great way to prove a point your are trying to convince people of...
"


I was pointing out the sales aspect only.

I was being totally fair about everything in
which way things could go. I had laid out all
the facts so that people could make up their
own mind.

I personally think that it will outsell BlitzMax.
That is my own opinion and I don't think it is unfair.
I wasn't trying to convince anyone, I was trying
to make people think for themselves, which unfortunatly
you missed.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st Nov 2004 22:52
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Quote: "this sorta thing will encourage a slew clone type fps that look like cookie cutter, click together stuff..."


That's a limitation of the media you are given, not the tool itself.

It's also why there are thousands of Quake3 / HL maps that all look identical to each other - because they just use the textures and segments provided with the originals. It's not until you start creating your own media that the game becomes interesting. There is no "cure" for this, it's just a fact of life.

And another fact of life is that not everyone can model in 3D, or make good textures, or compose audio, or animate objects - but there is no reason at all why these sorts of people shouldn't be allowed to make games, infact lots of them want to - so they have to use the media that we (and other 3rd parties) create. If it means similar looking games - well, so what? at least they actually made something and if they had fun in the process, that's our job done and done well.

Cheers,

Rich

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uman
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 03:57
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Well said Richard,

This tool will allow a lot of games to be made, rather than a lot of games to be started by people - some with good or great ideas. Using most other small developers engines many would fail because the users may have the ideas, but dont have the skills or resources of whatever nature you can think of to complete it.

Within any limitations of this engine, there will be some bad ones, some good ones and a few great ones - thats the nature of the numbers - one thing is for sure there will be a lot more than there was before FPSC.
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 04:54 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 05:30
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yes Richard... verrrry welll said indeed... i couldn't have come up with a better support for what i was saying above myself...

Quote: "It's also why there are thousands of Quake3 / HL maps that all look identical to each other - because they just use the textures and segments provided with the originals. "


yup... it's bound to follow suit that there will be a plehtora of FPSC look a likes as well, just as i said above... you really have shown that what i said will most likely be born out as true.

Quote: "and another fact of life is that not everyone can model in 3D, or make good textures, or compose audio, or animate objects - but there is no reason at all why these sorts of people shouldn't be allowed to make games, infact lots of them want to - so they have to use the media that we (and other 3rd parties) create. If it means similar looking games - well, so what? "


well, lets just hope that the stuff will look as good as Quake stuff did... what was it 4 years ago...

and since you wanna pretend to be the one to tell me about the facts of life... those reasons you just gave above are excellent reasons why these people shouldn't be making games in the first place... they can't code, they can't model, they can't compose audio, they can't animate... what the heck can they do...

hey, reality check Rich... these people should be playing games instead of wasting their time trying to make em...

... or, at the very least, they should sit down and learn how to code, learn how to model, learn how to animate... in short, they might consider learning some of the skills that a game developer should know...

... then, maybe then after they'ved learned a lil, they'd be in a lil better shape to make a 3d game... with or without FPSC.




as far what DMX is babbling about... me concurring with the obvious point that you stated simply means that i concur with what you said... you say there's nothing wrong... well, of course there's nothing wrong with it, that's why i agreed with your statement...

but the point i was making has nothing to do with it being right or wrong...

the point i was making is really quite obvious... FPSC doesn't look like the 3D Game developers nirvana to me, as you seem to be making it out to be... as a matter of fact, i think that if you can't make a decent game now with DB or DBPro, or any other dev tool, you still won't be able to make one after you license FPSC... for the very reasons Davey has brought up...

in short... there's no free lunch. you're not gonna make anything worth playing without putting some effort into it... don't sit there waiting on FPSC to magically grant you the power... it aint gonna happen...

that's the point i'm trying to make... ok... clear enough for ya...



Uman... those reasons that you gave for people starting games and not finishing them are exactly why some games shouldn't be finished, not why they should...

people who have such a limited skill set and determination shouldn't be making games... nor deluding themselves into thinking that they can, simply because FPSC is coming.

they should be learning the skills necessary in order to make games... then maybe they'll be more likely to finish one or two.


hey, FPSC looks like it may have some potential to aid the determined developer... the developer who would be capable of making a game otherwise... before it came out..

anything else that comes out of FPSC as a result of some untalented, unskilled, hopefull will most likely be just that...

... hopefull.


but not seing the thing yet, i must reserve the right to be entirely wrong.

unlike you though, my pending judgement is based on logical deduction from past performance of similar products that tried the same thing...

it's also based on from what lil i've seen of this one...

... unlike yours, which seems to be based on some irrational, fanboy type epyphany induced by seeing those videos, and immediately feeling that the second coming is right around the corner.

--Mike
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:34 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 07:40
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Quote: "FPSC doesn't look like the 3D Game developers nirvana to me"


Probably because no such thing exists, or ever will do.

Quote: "and since you wanna pretend to be the one to tell me about the facts of life... those reasons you just gave above are excellent reasons why these people shouldn't be making games in the first place... they can't code, they can't model, they can't compose audio, they can't animate... what the heck can they do..."


They can LEARN, and if FPSC is the catalyst they need to discover texturing or modelling abilities they never knew they had, then so be it. Your attitude towards your fellow humans is very worrying, saying they should be happy with just playing games and not having the chance to exercise any form of creativity, but that's a different issue.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 07:55 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 08:07
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Quote: "Quote: "FPSC doesn't look like the 3D Game developers nirvana to me"

Probably because no such thing exists, or ever will do."


... now two of us have made it clear to him.


Quote: "Everyone starts somewhere."


yes... in a programming book, or a class on programming, or modelling, or something related...

a complete click together game maker does nothing to help you learn anything... except to use other people creations to click together someone elses idea of a FPS...

... not much of an education.

Quote: "you are in no position to say if they should or should not be allowed to do so, or say they should be playing games instead of making them. That is a very bad attitude to have, but it's a personal issue you'll hopefully resolve yourself."


first of all, don't put words in my mouth Rich... i didn't say that they shouldn't be allowed to do anything... what i said was...

Quote: "are excellent reasons why these people shouldn't be making games in the first place."


and those were excellent reasons why they shouldn't... words that you yourself came up with... you are twisting what i said to make some point or the other, but that's not what i said..

and i stand by what i said... people who don't have a clue, nor a desire to learn how to do something right, should really not do it at all... and this includes making games... there is nothing to resolve.

Quote: "these people should be playing games instead of wasting their time trying to make em"
i also stand by that statement... as a matter of fact, FPSC will be like a game itself... no programming, just click this and move it there, click here and give it an action... cool game, creating what will run and look like a game...

you see, i'm not far off the mark on this...

only by taking the time to learn something about programming, modelling, animation, will they ever stand a chance of making anything on their own...

then and only then will they be game developers... sorry, the truth is somethimes a rough pill to take.


don't get me wrong... FPSC will have its audience... and if you guys do it right, there will be a crossover audience... and if you do it really right, there will be a large crossover audience.

but only the people who are willing to take the time to learn what they are doin will stand a chance of making a decent game with it... the rest will be playing at clicking together something that looks like the game in the video we saw...

this will become apparent almost immediately after FPSC is released, and the novelty has worn off.

those who do take the time to learn a lil about what they are doing will see that the scope of what they have is limited, and move on to, hopefully DBPro... or something more capable...

or they may even stay with FPSC, remotely using it as a basis for their scripting or resources...


like i said before... that is what i choose to wait and see develop when the program is released.



--Mike
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:02 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 08:03
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Quote: "and i stand by what i said... people who don't have a clue, nor a desire to learn how to do something right, should really not do it at all... and this includes making games... there is nothing to resolve."


In order to actually make that claim you have to dictate that there is such as a thing as a "right" and "wrong" way. The second you claim people aren't doing it right, you are saying what they are doing is wrong - that is the only part I have an issue with (the rest of your comments are perfectly valid). It is not your place to tell them that doing something in such a way is wrong.

Please feel free to correct me if you somehow meant it differently, but I fail to see how, the logic just doesn't add-up to any other meaning.

Quote: "those who do take the time to learn a lil about what they are doing will see that the scope of what they have is limited, and move onto, hopefully DBPro..."


There are MANY who claim that using DBPro is the "wrong" way too, and you shouldn't be wasting your time with such a program and should be doing it the "right" way. I have the same issues with them too

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:10 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 08:16
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Quote: "The second you claim people aren't doing it right, you are saying what they are doing is wrong - that is the only part I have an issue with "


look back at my post Rich... i never said anyone was doin it the wrong way...

you read things in print, and the words seem to mutate into something different by the time they reach your mind... i didn't say anything about a right way or a wrong way...

that's all your creation...

what i did say was entirely different... it was logical, sensible, and like it or not, real... i didn't make up any of these rules...

wait until the first 10 games with the stock textures and the stock DB guy running around shooting the stock rifles inside examples of the stock rooms start appearing all over the web...

... you think i'm being hard now,

hey, time will tell...

i'm just expressing my opinions... right or wrong they may be...
they are opinions based on logical deductions and extrappolation of fact and past experience...

i am not making up anything, nor am i trying to convince anyone of anything... one way or the other...

except maybe that all that glitters, may not be gold... so they should wait and see, with an open mind...

--Mike
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:13
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Quote: "look back at my post Rich... i never said anyone was doin it the wrong way..."


That is exactly what you imply by saying they aren't doing it right.. if it isn't right, it's wrong.. your original message:

Quote: "people who don't have a clue, nor a desire to learn how to do something right, should really not do it at all"


Exactly how else is that supposed to be read?

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:17 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 08:25
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no... i implied nothing... that's the way you interpreted what i said.

i made no implication of right or wrong at all... only an objective observation...

you must learn to differentiate between the two...



would you want someone who doesn't have a clue or who didn't learn what they were doing operating on you in a hospital... flying a plane that you are in... or building the office that you work in?

now, granted these are extreme examples... but i do it to make clear the point i was trying to make...

in short,

do what you know... don't do what you don't know... and, learn what you don't know so that you will be able to do what you know...

i can't make it any plainer than that.

clicking away in FPSC will not make you a 3d game developer... well, maybe it will... but only in the slightest sense of the term... i that would be stretching the term a bit to accomodate...

--Mike
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:27
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take every word at it's face value... and don't read something into what someone else is saying.

no brain cap required for this excercise...


now, we're diverging from the topic at hand... this isn't about me or you... it's about FPSC...

can ya give it a break and stop going tit for tat on a point that i have clearly shown you are mistaken on...

your interpretation was wrong... can we move on...

--Mike
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Zone Chicken
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 08:41
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I agree there will be ton's of Sh*t games, i mean that is the point of the whole program is for people who

1) Don't know how to program.
2) Don't have to motivation to learn programming.
3) Don't have time to learn programming.

but as stated in a above post, there will be people who will take the time, make 100% there own content and there games will stand out over the masses because of this. But the main reason of the tool fps creator being created wasn't to make it easier for today's programmers to spew out games every week, it was to give the uneducated people a tool that is far simpler then a codeing language where they can be creative and make something enjoyable without spending months or even years learning how to do so.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 09:06
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Quote: "
do what you know... don't do what you don't know... and, learn what you don't know so that you will be able to do what you know...

i can't make it any plainer than that.
"


You sure can't. The whole "doctors / pilots" post completely underlines what I originally said, that you believe that people using tools like FPSC are not learning anything, but are merely clicking around, and if they really want to make a game they should put in the hard graft required to study the massive stack of different skillsets required.

It's an elitest attitude I do, and will always, abhor, whether it was meant as directly as it read or not.

Making games should be, above and beyond anything else, about having fun. If that fun is obtained from dragging a few prefabs into a room and shooting a pre-defined AI monster without understanding a clue about how it got there, then that's perfectly fine by me. It was always the objective of FPSC to be, what could be termed as an Entertainment Tool. Something to enjoy using, as much as playing the final games. It has to be easy to pick-up and use, from a very low age range (8 year olds and up, please don't ask me to tell an 8-year old he shouldn't be using FPSC, but should be trying to study CSG and mesh deformation techniques instead). When you make something appeal to that wide a range, you make sacrifices, which is why it won't be your "3D nirvana". But it might be someones.

It's the end result I care about playing, not how it got there. I'm quite sure you agree with this too and am perfectly aware that most of your issues are with the fanboy attitude to an as-yet un-released tool, those that mis-guidely think FPSC is going to turn their PCs into some Electronic Arts Triple-A game-factory or something. We know it's not, we know only a real few will grasp all of the features on offer, but if it gets them on the development ladder then that's all we can hope for, even if 99% fall off on the way, perhaps they will still come out the other end appreciating just how bloody hard it is to make a decent game these days!

You can only hope.

I am not interested in continuing a tit for tat argument with you, this has deviated too much and if I offended you somehow then I apologise. I understand your view point, it was clear from the start and confirmed through-out (whatever you thought I "mis-interpretated") and it's something I'm happy to agree to disagree on. Hopefully this post shows you where I'm coming from.

Cheers,

Rich

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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uman
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 13:21
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Quote: ""since you wanna pretend to be the one to tell me about the facts of life... those reasons you just gave above are excellent reasons why these people shouldn't be making games in the first place... they can't code, they can't model, they can't compose audio, they can't animate... what the heck can they do...

hey, reality check Rich... these people should be playing games instead of wasting their time trying to make em...""


Who on earth do you think you are making such a statement - and no I'm not going to respond to any answer because I know you will want to debate that until the cows come home cos thats what you do - you are already filling the forum with pointless debate.

The statement is offensive to decent people. Anyone has the right to make or try to make games without that kind of inference and long may it be so.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 17:40
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Mike, Mike, Mike

You used to use and probably still use 3D RAD, right?
Well there were some bad games made in it and some good games
made in it. All the same things you have said could easily just apply to 3D RAD as well couldn't it?

Making games isn't some magic process, it is a learning process
and who are you to say that if someone can't create 3D models that they might use this tool and it might help motivate them to do 3D modeling.

Instead of saying "oh these guys shouldn't be making games as they have no skills", you should be out there writing tutorials to help people and invest your time and energy to something like this instead of saying "they shouldn't even try at all."

Like somehow you were born with the ability to make Doom 3, I haven't seen a Doom 3 from you yet, just a lot of message postings and some very, very, old pictures of your Submarine game.

Your extreme examples don't even make sense. These are video games, video games are ment to be enjoyable and have fun, they are a relaxation method to a lot of people and entertainment to others.

Besides, you keep ignoring the fact that FPSC is not just a FPS creator, its a level editor as well. Now it doesn't create models, but it does make levels and allow you to load models and perform CSG on them to make even more interesting levels with lightmapping as well.

If you use all that pent up anger you could probably use that to teach someone how to do 3D modeling.

You only get results if you put in time and effort.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 17:54 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 17:55
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Quote: "
... now two of us have made it clear to him.
"


Thanks for your words of wisdom, captain obvious

!!! Newsflash !!! The sun will rise tomorrow.

Too much glue sniffing for you last night, red?


Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 18:13
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In order for people to see that there are a lot of games that are a like out there it causes others to wan't to push harder for something that hasn't been done before. We like to call this competition.

While FPSC has fabs and models already for you, you will have to do the hard work of programming, creating your own models or having someone else create them for you and have someone or yourself to create the menus and music and maybe even have a level designer.

Because FPSC is cheaper and because it can help you get games up and running quickly as opposed to having you create the octree's, collision, and portals you can allow your creativity to flow.

It encourage's people to think and to motivate people to learn new things and try different things out and to play with concepts of games before comiting to the actual game.

Gaming isn't all about modeling and programming, it's also about how to create levels or how to make a game fun with great gameplay, it's about trying to expand your creativity and opening up your mind to new posibilities and all of this can of course motivate you to look into programming for FPSC and modeling for it.

All of this is where I think Mike Hense is in a limited mindset.
I also find it hard to believe he is limited in thinking as he comes from his favorite 3D RAD background.

Come on Mike, you are better than this and I am disapointed in you. I thought you would understand more.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 21:02 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 21:10
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hahahaa... who are you talking to DMX?

3 posts already... no one else seems to be responding to em...

why...

probably because you aren't saying anything of any relevance...

or maybe it's because they're put off a lil and are rotfl at someone who seems to wanna be the new tea leaf reader of the forum...

you obviously can see the future so clearly... FPSC isn't even here yet, and already you know exactly what it will be able to do... how it will be able to empower those with hitherto no empowerment whatsoever, with unheard of magical abilities to make great games...

ahaahahahahahahahahhaa... yes, you truly must be a new age soothsayer... hey, could ya give me tommorrows lottery numbers while you're at it...


one good thing though... at least you are keeping yourself occupado... and off the streets.


--Mike
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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 21:28
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Writing FPS games is damn tricky - it's as simple as that, collision, AI, modelling, all that stuff is really for more experienced coders - it's like standard elements in most games, but they all have to be in harmony and work perfectly to make the FPS you really want, not an easy task.

The main factor though is the desire to make that game that's in your head (we all have at least one), maybe FPSC is just the first rung if the ladder, like SEUCK was for a lot of people on the C64, or 3D Construction Kit (anyone remember that!). I think most people would agree that FPSC outweighs what we were expecting, especially the scripting system - after a while I can see the FPSC users trying to outdo each other with cool script effects and games, I can guarantee that people will be doing stuff with FPSC that even Lee did'nt realise was possible. We're mostly game coders here, so we don't know how much pent-up creativity hardcore gamers actually have, personally I'm putting my money on them pushing FPSC to it's limits and coming up with better ideas than any of us coders.

I can imagine how a 10 yo kid would love to make their own FPS games and dish them out at school to their pals, does'nt it make you wish you were a kid again .


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
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David R
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 21:40
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The problem is that this will not allow more advanced creativity that using something like DBC or DBP requires and allows. 'Click-and-create' products have a problem of being easy, but not very customizable.

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Van B
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 21:45
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I wish people would drop the term 'click and create' - A program can be easy to use and powerfull at the same time, does'nt detract from it at all. Modelling, scripting, shaders, textures - there's plenty for the ambitious to look into and get their hands dirty.


Van-B


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IanM
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Posted: 2nd Nov 2004 22:52 Edited at: 2nd Nov 2004 22:52
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I can see lots of ways that a complete beginner can start using FPSC in a meaningful way.

The main one is learning level design - Finding out what works and what doesn't. From there, you could go either down the route of adding custom tiles/scenery etc, or enhancing scripted behaviour, or both.

But hey, even if they don't go down these routes, as long as they are enjoying themselves, who cares?

Those who think that they will produce a AAA game from FPSC are wrong. But those who think that FPSC is just a click'n'create system are just as wrong.

*** Coming soon - Network Plug-in - Check my site for info ***
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Dylnuge
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:50
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I like the idea for two major reasons:
1. I love shooter games
2. I like coding and editing, but I stink at making modles (My people look like rubber balls on tan sticks!)

Still no exact release date it seams, kind of pushing it for a Fall 04 release, don't you think.

Tranzerk Technologies Current Project: Hound Avenue
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greenlig
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 09:59
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I agree with most of the people here about the way that it will teach younger or inexperienced users about game design.

My little brother isnt a fan of making games, but he is very creative, and when I told him about TGC and FPSC he was really exicted because he loves playing games, and It will give him the ability to make all the ideas in his head come out onto the screen, and maybe take him into game creation or 3d modelling.

Everything teaches us, and this will be a great starting point for people to get into game design, and that point is beyond question. Anyone who cant see that would be really benefited by doing a little research into how people learn and maybe get out into the real world where people's avatars are actually real faces!!!

Aust. Convention...get there!! http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=38799&b=2&p=1
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:26 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 10:44
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Quote: "Anyone who cant see that would be really benefited by doing a little research into how people learn and maybe get out into the real world where people's avatars are actually real faces!!!
"


... or maybe they can see the difference between impusive fascination and true interest and drive that a future game developer would have to have to actually have the attention span necessary to learn anything about game development.

your kid brother will play with this for as long as it keeps his interest... then it'll go in the electronic toy box along with all the other games he got for Christmas...

may i suggest that maybe you should take some of your own advice greenlig... get out a lil... do a lil research yourself... learn just a lil about what you are talking about... 'cause it sure doesn't sound like you have the faintest clue...

Quote: "Everything teaches us"


this is just like saying "Blue Is Blue", "Up Is Up", "Down Is Down"...

not really saying much of anything... except what is quite obvious...


god, i've never seen anything like this before... most of you here haven't any idea of exactly what FPSC is in the first place, none of you have played with it yet, not for even a minute... and the thing hasn't even been completed as of yet... but you are already praising it's power and glory... already convinced that this will be your 3d game making savior.

while the more sane amongst us are content to ask direct questions, are content to not jump to unfounded conclusions, and are content enough not to make these ridiculous claims of unheralded empowerment... sensibly remembering what went down with previous attempts at this sort of thing.

we all want to see FPSC debut... and i'm sure we all want it to be a success... but come on now... it's not gonna become a religion now... is it...

--Mike
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 10:50
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Quote: "sensibly remembering what went down with previous attempts at this sort of thing."


Do you have any specific examples of products that have tried exactly this? Proper mainstream products with international publishing agreements, not just some home-brew kit spread via the net.

I ask because you keep stating this fact, but I want to know exactly what you're comparing it with.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Red Ocktober
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 11:20 Edited at: 3rd Nov 2004 11:30
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3D Gamemaker would come immediately to mind...

do i have to go into the gory details...

PCPlus had this to say --> http://pcplus.co.uk/reviews/?pagetypeid=2&articleid=15907&subsectionid=373&subsubsectionid=56

and i never saw any Doom or Quake competitors come outta this one... or anything even close come from it.

sorry, you did ask.

--Mike
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Osiris
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 12:31
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you guys write to much...

ok to sum it up some of you think all of the games will be clones that are boring

and the rest of you (rich) think they have a write to make games too.

that was for all of you like me who dont like reading alot on computers

anyone can be a hero, but a soldier can be a hero five minuets longer....
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Van B
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 16:46
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Red, T3DGM made TGC more money than anything else - most likely funded the developments of DBPro, so I'm sure TGC has a good idea about the market their in.

I'm very interested in FPSC for my son, from what I've seen of it - and read about it for the last 6 months - I think he'll love it. Anyone who can't see how I've come to that conclusion basically needs help.


Van-B


Muhahahahaha.
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DMXtra
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Posted: 3rd Nov 2004 19:27
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Quote: "
hahahaa... who are you talking to DMX?

3 posts already... no one else seems to be responding to em...
"


I was talking to you. Probably nobody has responded to them because they are common sense. Something you seem to lack.

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