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Geek Culture / What is your browser

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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:30
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why make another post?? BECAUSE IT'S IRRELEVANT HERE.. A mod could have easily removed your post once your request was added or denied.. so why bring your posts which are completely unrelating in any sort of manner here??



At any rate.. I like firefox's way of handling modules.. or plugins.. just seems to open slower than my good old IE But I'll be switching over to the dark side in a few days anyway
Debian Linux^_^

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:35
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Jerico - the IE components are built into Windows. It will ALWAYS open faster than any other browser, because it's already in memory! Unlike IE, I never actually shut Firefox down, so once it's up, it's up!

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:40
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Quote: "The Internet was built on open source applications and runs on it today. You cannot do ANYTHING across the public Internet that doesn't use one of those pieces of software somewhere. Open source based on open standards and public protocols power virtually everything on-line."


Microsoft's .Net is closed source though; although the specification for access is open.. there have been NO successful attacks against it. .Net servers have been taken down, but not hacked yet.. therein actually lays the proof that opensource is not working for business'

.Net is impervious to attacks suchas DDoS, simply because of how it is designed; Windows however it not yet capable of handling that many remote calls, as such crashes the operating system NOT the network.

Microsoft have made a BAD move, with Longhorns development; taking away the big step to a pure .Net operating system. While this provides this back compatibility that everyone loves so much without much ease, until they finally take the plunge to making everything .Net security is going to remain a serious issue.

Quote: "It is fixed. All people I know don't have any problems with this anymore. And Firefox doesn't automatically update. It only checks for updates. This is not MS."

Maybe you don't have it setup correctly. Mine flicked up a noticed it was updating, updated and flicked up a notice it was complete and to reboot the browser. Sure seems like AUTOMATIC updating to me.

Quote: "leave the IE lovers to it, one day they'll wake-up and smell the truth (probably the same day IE accidentally broadcasts their visa card details across the web as yet anothe security flaw is "found")"


Yeah, because FireFox is SOOO less likely to do that. They're both security ridden; if you can't see that, then I feel sorry for you.
I wonder, which platforms do you trust more..

JSP or PHP? If you don't know what that has to do with FireFox, then perhaps YOU should do your research.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:54
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*just realized this was your thread 404, I was missing the connection but still why post so far off topic

At any rate, I hate to break it to ya raven, but the fact that firefox is more secure than IE is because people can open up the source code and see the problems, you've got teams of hobbyists with nothing better to do than to go skimming through the source code at the first sight of a problem, and then posting their findings..

A beautiful system really

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 03:55
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Quote: "although the specification for access is open.. there have been NO successful attacks against it. .Net servers have been taken down, but not hacked yet.. therein actually lays the proof that opensource is not working for business'"


.NET market share on production web servers: less than 3% (Netstat Nov. 2004 results)

Therein lays the proof that obviously that isn't quite working for business yet either.

As for saying no .NET sever has ever been hacked - I take it all you actually mean is, you've never read about it happening.

Quote: ".Net is impervious to attacks suchas DDoS"


If you honestly believe this, I truly feel sorry for you and your lack of understanding how networking hardware operates.

Quote: "Yeah, because FireFox is SOOO less likely to do that."


Let's keep a little tally going shall we? How many security exploits are found in IE vs. Firefox over say the next 6 months? I wonder who'll win. Actually, no I don't wonder, I know for a fact IE will have more if the last 6 months is anything to go by.

Quote: "JSP or PHP? If you don't know what that has to do with FireFox, then perhaps YOU should do your research."


Go on.. explain what difference a *server-side* language has to do with users choice of web browser.

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Three Score
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:01
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if a server crashes form php then it is the wbemaster err servermasters fault for not limiting the power of php and not ie or ffx's fualt although jsp can and has crashed peoples computer(the client nto server) in ie(nto sure on any otherr browser)

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:05
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JSP is a server-side language, it can't crash a browser. The results of it could (i.e. the output it generates), but not the actual process of running that script. Same goes for PHP, ASP, ASP.NET, etc.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:11
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Quote: "Let's keep a little tally going shall we? How many security exploits are found in IE vs. Firefox over say the next 6 months? I wonder who'll win. Actually, no I don't wonder, I know for a fact IE will have more if the last 6 months is anything to go by."


Yeah, but the better question would be to ask, 'Who has discovered these security flaws?'

Fact of the matter is IE is the majority market share (88% according to Macromedia.com), it is also a Microsoft product.

Two things which make Hackers eyes light up. Simple fact is even if it didn't have majority market, people would still abuse it because it is Microsoft, and you know that.

Quote: "Therein lays the proof that obviously that isn't quite working for business yet either."


More people are trained in PHP / ASP than C# or ASP.Net.. Not to mention the majority of businesses are happy running thier unsafe Linux with incompetant Linux Administrators; simply because they can get Distro's for free. Cutting Corners cuts your chance of protection; and your end users suffer because of your penny pinching.

Quote: "As for saying no .NET sever has ever been hacked - I take it all you actually mean is, you've never read about it happening."


It would be big new on MSDN.Net if it were to be hacked. And what hacker wouldn't love to know he/she was the first to do it?

Technologically speaking it is near impossible to hack .Net.. simple fact is that it is constantly compiling and changing itself, you have a very very small window of oppertunity to figure out what the system is doing and counteract it. no computer you will purchase in a standard outlet is fast enough to do it; you have to have a truely top end processing power in order to do it. Not to mention know exactly what you need to attack.

You can beat a static rule system.. ever tried breaking into something where the rules change just as you get close to completing what you need to?

It's like a game of tetris, you can't win; it'll just keep one step ahead of you.

Quote: "If you honestly believe this, I truly feel sorry for you and your lack of understanding how networking hardware operates."


DDoS, provides a barrage of connection requests to a level which exceed current bandwidth and operating calls which a server is capable of handling.

Server-Side language will handle all calls seperately with no check on destination or que status. .Net however makes sure the signature comming from the inbound transmission is unique and when there are too many transmission to handle, tells the hardware to buffer remaining transmission until a certain point then simply deny extras. If the transmissions origin signature equals the same point or application .Net will deny that single point of entry.

Unfortunately Windows will keep extra ports open allowing itself to over-run memorywise which causes a crash.

Linux/Unix on the other hand shuts down any service which takes up too many resources too quickly in order to prevent a crash.

Quote: "Go on.. explain what difference a *server-side* language has to do with users choice of web browser."


Tell me which server-side language/service you trust more.


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:12
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Quote: "JSP is a server-side language, it can't crash a browser. The results of it could (i.e. the output it generates), but not the actual process of running that script. Same goes for PHP, ASP, ASP.NET, etc."


this has nothing to do with crashing a browser, this has everything to do with security..


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bitJericho
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:16
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Quote: "Cutting Corners cuts your chance of protection; and your end users suffer because of your penny pinching."


For some reason I doubt tgc is running 2003 server.. Maybe they are.. but I would doubt it.. And through all my years I don't ever recall them being hacked or hearing of it in any way..

and raven, considering this forum is built off of php... you already know that answer

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Three Score
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:25 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 04:26
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hum u got me and i guess i was thinkign of java not jsp(i run my own server so i should knwo better)
and anyway

edit: and raven u got some guts challenging Rich the TGC Admin

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Jeku
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 04:33 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 04:34
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Quote: "and raven u got some guts challenging Rich the TGC Admin"


It shouldn't really matter who you're challenging in this kind of debate. So far nobody's broken any rules by challenging somebody on a personal level


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Three Score
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 05:06
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why ddi u lock the threads and u accidenetally added a done it shoudl ahve been only one and all u did was lock nto delete and not move the thread

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Final Epsilon
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 05:23
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hrm.. I use firefox. ^_^

But the codeboxes on these forums dont show up right. Only in IE do they work for me.

:-( I think my fonts are messed up.
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DarkBasic Pro Guy
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 05:27
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firefox becuase it's better on security (ie gets information from you and gives it to microsoft)

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Zero Blitzt
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 05:29
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Quote: "What happens? the Linux community takes something which SHOULD'VE standardised them, and everyone creates thier own version.. making what Linux did a decade ago a waste of bloody time."


Eh... All distros are essentially the same. Think of it as a Reeses' Peanut Butter cup thing. The company may make a new candy, but there is always peanut butter in the middle. The outside just looks different. The kernel is almost always standard.


"And C++ has 2 version Microsoft visual C++ and Bordland C++."
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Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 07:20
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Quote: "But the codeboxes on these forums dont show up right. Only in IE do they work for me."


Works for me

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Dave J
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 07:32
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Actually, that's one of the reasons I don't use Firefox, when you highlight a link and use the "http://" button, it won't wrap the text with the tags like it does in IE, it's bloody annoying.


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 07:36
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Quote: "the IE components are built into Windows"

Yeah, my PC runs slow because windows runs about 3 high CPU use IE things and restarts them when I close them

Quote: "incompetant Linux Administrators"

That's nothing to do with the browsers or why Linux is bad!?

Quote: "when you highlight a link and use the "http://" button, it won't wrap the text with the tags"


press the button, type the link/paste the link, press the button
or press the button, press the button, type the link in between
or copy the tags around it...its not going to take up much time...moaning about it does

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 08:05 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 08:11
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Quote: "Eh... All distros are essentially the same. Think of it as a Reeses' Peanut Butter cup thing. The company may make a new candy, but there is always peanut butter in the middle. The outside just looks different. The kernel is almost always standard."


A good Kernel does not make a good OS. Especially when retards take it and then create thier own file systems, executable formats, etc...

they don't add standardise formats, so the only 'true' sense of standardisation is to release things as source code packages for the OS to compile it for it.

ever sat down and compiled OpenOffice before? takes a good 3-4hrs on a moderately powerful system. Who the hell needs that when Office 2005 is truely multiplatform, .Net is the reason for this.

Quote: "Yeah, my PC runs slow because windows runs about 3 high CPU use IE things and restarts them when I close them "


that make sense to anyone? if so, please translate

Quote: "That's nothing to do with the browsers or why Linux is bad!?"


Windows Administration although takes skill to make it air-tight, it has moderately idiot proof tools. Not to mention it is ALOT cheaper to get someone MSC Qualified..
If Linux had better tool for administration that didn't require alot of experience with to utilise properly; it wouldn't matter if the Admins didn't know what they're doing.

Further more anything you NEED to know about Admin for both is online; only try reading a Linux document on stuff, it might as well be written in another language sometimes.

Quote: "press the button, type the link/paste the link, press the button
or press the button, press the button, type the link in between
or copy the tags around it...its not going to take up much time...moaning about it does"


Actually this is a forum problem, not a firefox one. In InvisionBoard and phpBB they both will encapsulate data fine; but in this one they don't. You would think as Rich uses FireFox, it would be fixxed by now.. can't believe it has gone unchecked for so long.

[post.edit]
my original question of which Rich believes is more secure PHP or JSP wasn't answered.. Although the site being PHP based might be an indication; a written answer would help.

considering that for portability most of FireFox is Java; JSP is simply a server side version of Java. If you don't trust Java for security, why the hell would you trust the security of your operating system from a broswer utilising that very language!

Java was never created for security, it was created for easy portability. C++ and Java have a very noticeable security flaw when passing data; and it actually completely exposes ANY operating system using it, despite how good an administrator believes themselves to be.

Because of this dependancy FireFox has a number of very worrying flaws, even more so on the Microsoft Windows platform; because of the interfaces it uses just to look and act like Windows. It has the exact same security flaws as Internet Explorer has for NOT utilising GTK and a 3rd party Messenging System.


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Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 08:15 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 08:16
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Quote: "that make sense to anyone? if so, please translate"

I am very tired but I will translate for you.
"Yeah, my PC runs slow because windows runs about 3 high CPU use IE things and restarts them when I close them"
When looking at the Task Manager, there are three running IE processes (minimum). Which all use a large (ish) amount of my CPU. When I close one of these, Windows automatically restarts it. Was that clear enough?

Quote: "it would be fixxed by now"

I don't usually pick on spelling errors but you were corrected once already (fixed). I assume you have a memory, short or long-term...

EDIT: This edit was to correct the fact I put a # in while pressing enter. Not correcting my spelling which is surprisingly good for my state of mind.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 08:20
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Quote: "When looking at the Task Manager, there are three running IE processes (minimum). Which all use a large (ish) amount of my CPU. When I close one of these, Windows automatically restarts it. Was that clear enough."


sounds like you have a virus in your windows installation; unless your closing the wrong explorer.

Explorer.EXE = Desktop / File Browser
iexplorer.exe = Internet Explorer

goes knows why you have more than one, but Explorer in itself compounds the memory being used; you have to wait until it maxes before it flushes which is quite annoying.

if you close Explorer, without turning off certain options it will automatically reboot the system; as it sees this as a catastropic error has gone on and you no longer have the ability to access your desktop.

Quote: "I don't usually pick on spelling errors but you were corrected once already (fixed). I assume you have a memory, short or long term..."


f*** you, i know how it's spelt; and I will spell it however the hell I damn well choose to. If you don't like it you can go walkout into the middle of the motorway!


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Neofish
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 08:25
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Quote: "Explorer.EXE = Desktop / File Browser
iexplorer.exe = Internet Explorer"

I may be annoying and be sometimes incorrect but I am not an idiot. (I was about 3 years ago...that was fun)

*Counts to 10*
Yeah, I can spell however I want to as well, but I have the courtesy to spell the correct way (as much as possible) on Forums and other similar things so that people can read my posts (don't you go and quote my badly worded posts as a retort to that).

About motorways: unless there are no cars...
Quote: "I am not an idiot"


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the_winch
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 08:44 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 08:44
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Quote: "considering that for portability most of FireFox is Java; JSP is simply a server side version of Java. If you don't trust Java for security, why the hell would you trust the security of your operating system from a broswer utilising that very language!"


Most of FireFox is Java? Some of it is JavaScript but not Java.

Quote: "this is not a quote"
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empty
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 08:57 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 08:59
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Yep, that would be a miracle: I can run Firefox without having Java. Black magic?

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Dave J
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 11:11
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Quote: "press the button, type the link/paste the link, press the button
or press the button, press the button, type the link in between
or copy the tags around it...its not going to take up much time...moaning about it does"


Why should I use a different method of quoting and highlighting links when I can already do it the way I want, using a viable method with a browser that works - Internet Explorer? I'm not going to change my habits because Firefox is a supposedly 'better' browser, even though it doesn't solve the issues that make a direct impact on my web surfing.


"Computers are useless - They can only give you answers."
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1tg46
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 11:17
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I am not going to read this entire post, but I use the following browsers.

AOL-which I hate
Netscape-My favorite browser
Internet Explorer(features disabled)-Good for at school, but not my ideal choice for browsing since the file menu is disalbed (non-visible) at the school.


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Lost in Thought
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 14:07
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Yeah I have found no setbacks with IE as long as you update. I turn off auto updates because I like having control of it. There are bugs in every software and it is almost impossible to guess where they will turn up. Yeah you can concentrate most of your efforts to keep one area of your program bug free. But that is still no guarantee. There are many bugs found in IE products such as security flaws. But there are also many more people using those products and searching for bugs/flaws. As more people start to use other browsers, more bugs will be found with them. No matter how well it is made there are bugs in all software. And just like DBP's bugs they might have to wait a while to be fixed while they work on other software. Microsoft and other companies may also have there "FPSC" projects side tracing them from their other software. It'll all get fixed in the end. No offense intended.

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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 20th Nov 2004 17:09 Edited at: 20th Nov 2004 17:09
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Since I use Linux, Firefox is the obvious choice. When I have to use Windows though, I use Firefox on that as well. The tabs are the feature that attract me the most.

I am very much enjoying Linux btw, so much more control. I love compiling my own customised kernel. Going to dump the BASIC languages and develop with C++ for both Windows and Linux soon.

- Rpg Cyco

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Jeku
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 05:17
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Quote: "ever sat down and compiled OpenOffice before?"


First of all, why would you do that? OpenOffice, along with most Linux software, can be downloaded in binary format.

OpenOffice is great for Windows--- I've been using it for almost a year as a replacement for MS Office, and it's, dare I say, better.


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GothOtaku
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 14:36
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Quote: "OpenSource is good, when your using it to enhance upon a set standard. However in order to keep security, you MUST make sure the source is not freely available for the changes you have made to protect it."


In some circumstances, yes, but here you're very wrong. With an open web server if any holes are found you can patch them. Can you patch Windows? No, only Microsoft can which is very, VERY bad. Since they control it if a flaw is found you HAVE to wait for THEM to fix it. With an open browser ANYONE can fix it. When all the Windows XP security flaws were exposed I got more spyware and viruses then I've gotten in my entire life and I couldn't do anything because only Microsoft can "fix" my problem. However, if it was a Linux machine I could conceivably fix it since the holes were well known. Even if you know exactly what's wrong on Windows you can't do anything to change it only wait for Microsoft to do it.

Apparently, Eric S. Raymond agrees with me: http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/quake-cheats.html

Quote: "Any half-decent hacker can break into any Linux based operating system in minutes. Microsoft Windows requires research to find a security hole to take advantage of and HOPE that the end user hasn't patched yet, or there isn't a patch yet."


I completly disagree, from my experience a Linux machine is a lot more secure than a Windows machine. At my job we had all our Windows servers compromised (and yes, they were fully patched and watched over by certified people) and then he tried our Linux servers and not only could he not get in them but we were able to accurately trace his IP and block any further attempts from him. We've since gotten rid of all our Windows servers and replaced them with Linux (except one lab which has a FreeBSD server I think).


Quote: "A professional Security Consultant 'Hacker' has gone on record to say that without knowing where to look, it is close to impossible to hack Windows."

Where'd you hear this? Could you supply a link?
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Chris K
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:15
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Quote: "Could you supply a link?"


Don't hold your breath.
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:37
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Quote: "It would be big new on MSDN.Net if it were to be hacked. And what hacker wouldn't love to know he/she was the first to do it?"


If WHAT were to be compromised?! .NET as in the framework, or the server, or an application that runs on it? There are security warnings for ALL of these things out there, they aren't hard to find.

Quote: "Server-Side language will handle all calls seperately with no check on destination or que status. "


DDoS attacks do not have to target the language or OS of the machine, rarely does that apply. It is utterly irrelevant if the server is running .NET, FreeBSD, etc etc - the issue is at a routing hardware level, not an OS one. To that end ANY server running ANY OS can be bought down via a well orchestrated DDoS attack, .NET servers most definitely 100% included. Most of the MS sites run on .NET servers and there are incidents of their main site being bought down via DDoS attacks somewhat frequently. There has been at least one reported incident of the entire MS site being taken offline via DDos every year since 1999 (I didn't bother looking back any further) If it was down to .NET alone protecting against this, this wouldn't be the case, except it's nothing to do with that.

Quote: "Tell me which server-side language/service you trust more."


It's irrelevant because neither effect the base security of the server itself unless the application allows it. A badly coded application can have security holes no matter what it is coded in. I would say that, on a technical level, Java is probably more secure because it has been around for so much longer. But then it doesn't have the same market-share as PHP, so bugs take longer to find and longer to get resolved. Security doesn't end at the application level. An insecure server running a JSP application is just as vulnerable as a rock-solid server running an in-secure PHP application.

Quote: "Windows Administration although takes skill to make it air-tight, it has moderately idiot proof tools."


It needs them, because it gets moderate idiots looking after it. They assume that just because it has a nice easy to click interface it must be easy. Shame they're wrong. A good system administrator is worth their weight in gold, regardless of which platform they administrate.

Quote: "Not to mention it is ALOT cheaper to get someone MSC Qualified"


It doesn't mean crack. I *am* MCSE certified and I still wouldn't run a high-capacity web site on a Windows server without a 100% dedicated team to look after it on a network, security and application level. But then I wouldn't for FreeBSD either.

Quote: "considering that for portability most of FireFox is Java. If you don't trust Java for security, why the hell would you trust the security of your operating system from a broswer utilising that very language!"


Firefox isn't written in Java, this point is invalid (and incorrect).

Cheers,

Rich

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1tg46
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:19
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A moajor drawback with third party browsers is that you can't use the .NET passport logon at MSDN.Com. I always have to use Internet Explorer because Netscape won't work properly with .NET passport.


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bitJericho
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 00:52
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perhaps that's because they don't want you to use anything but ie, them being microsoft, and all

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