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Geek Culture / Valve and that MORONIC steam system

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Mentor
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:35 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 23:36
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GRRRR! my stress levels are through the roof, HL2 is now installed and running, some of the most annoying and dumb levels ever, all of the "hey! lets make the game last a long time by getting the player to fight off waves of troopers for ten minutes at a time every level" variety...YAWN, endless driving sections that are way too easy (I walk the route...clear a path and then go back for the car)..YAWN, and endless airboat sequences...YAWN, pointless and boring "GUNSHIP!" sections YAWN!, and now some End of Game (I think )..... sequence, where after being killed numerous times I just can`t work out what the heck you`re supposed to do to shut down the teleport with the administrator in it, die repeatedly but get no further, Yawn, sod this...too boring.

so giving up with HL2 (almost as bad as DOOM III) I decide to play HL (the original) through and try to break my record time, so click on icon, oh! theres that steam thing again, CD key? wtf, oh well, get CD and enter key, whats this?, wants to download 32mb, whats this about CS/Opposing force etc, they need ACTIVATING! GRRRRRRR!, I now have to wait 3 hours to play a game I played last week with just one mouse click, Valve ... I have just one message for you..

YOU ARE THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF "ONLINE ACTIVATION" OBSSESSED MORONS ON THE FREAKING PLANET, I DO HOPE YOU GO BANKRUPT AND ALL DIE PAINFULL DEATHS IN A MEAT GRINDER, YOU ARE DICKHEADS, HALFWITS, CRETINS, P*SS ARTISTS OF THE FIRST WATER, AND IF YOU HAD THE GUTS TO HAVE CONTACT DETAILS ON STEAM I WOULD HAVE GONE INTO FURTHER DETAIL ABOUT YOUR DEFICIENCIES.

Bloody morons, this is way beyond a joke, after years of buying every title they did and the Halflife Generation pack, I get THIS for thanks, a poor attempt of a sequel with boring "Kill the player repeatedly until he attains perfection or just lucks out" sections, the destruction of my existing game installs, requiring the partial RE-INSTALLATION of my Valve game collection over a poxy 56k modem, you know what? ...it would be easier to just get pirate copies

congratulations Valve, you have invented a system that is so long winded and complicated it would be faster to just install pirate copies, you win the prize for world class morons this year (and you look like keeping it with so few days left to run `till 2005), steam has allowed you to raise your software so far above "user hostile" it must need oxygen to stay conscious.

sigh! I just had to say that, and I couldn`t find any contact details for any "customer services department" on the Valve or Steam websites (customers?..oh! they are the scum that pay your wages Valve), so I thought I would pass on my opinion for critique (something this forum never lacks ), we should all take this as an example of how NOT to code software, you make it easy and simple to use, not complex and hostile, I wonder if this steam supports any sort of resume, otherwise I can never re-activate my old copies, (connection times out after two hours) will need to remove Steam and HL2 to get em back, very annoying, the whole HL2 thing can be fairly described as a debacle imo, by all means protect your software Valve, just don`t make my life a misery doing it (I can`t use the net easily for example while this massive download is in progress GRRR!)

peeved, annoyed, fed up and severely irritated.

Mentor.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:38 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 22:43
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As I keep suggesting to everyone at the Steam forums : Send your copy back & get a refund... If your downloaded it via Steam, then make a fuss to get your money back.

Whilst I didn't have a problem (apart from everything being slow), I'm still sending mine back anyway - no point keeping it now thats its been completed.
It was very good, especially in the graphics department. Controlling the car & water vechile was a pain (who decided the default controls for those should change from the mouse to keyboard?), antlions and fellow resistance fighters kept getting in the way, and I didn't really see any advanced AI (especially not 'fashioning weapons out of whatever is around').

Whether I get HL3 will depend on whether Steam is still involved or not...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
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Van B
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:45
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At least you guys got a working game, I can't even get it to run, and steam locks up my PC for an extra 3 minutes while it boots up!.

WTF was wrong with the way Half Life worked?, there's no excuse for how irritating and badly written Steam is, I should have known better when Counter Strike stopped working once steam got it's claws into it. I'm hoping that when I upgrade next month that it'll work then, even though I'm above minimum spec. My bro got it too, and it works perfectly fine on his machine, there's not really that much of a performance difference between his PC and mine.

Halo 2 must be the cream of the crop, at least it does'nt make me feel like gouging out my eyeballs when I (try to) play it.


Van-B


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:46 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 22:47
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Since when did they release HL2 on a "buy it, complete it and send it back for a refund because I didn't enjoy it" basis? Personally if I was Valve I'd tell you exactly where to shove your refund request if you've bought it, played it and finished it.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:53
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Yeah! I`m gonna un-install and take it back, I still have the receipt, the realy annoying and obstructive protection system effectivley makes the game worthless, overhyped trash, it winds me up something chronic, at this rate I`m gonna be back on the cardiac ward with another heart attack right after a Steam induced rage attack

Mentor.

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Neofish
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 22:53 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 22:55
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My friend's dad got it installed last night (after about 3 hours trying) and he is quite a way above minimum specs, but because of Steam he has to be actively connected to the internet (not sure exactly why), it takes about 10 minutes to load THE STARTING MENU, and when it does load the game it jerks a lot. I would have expected that on a minimum spec machine, but that is ridiculous.

EDIT:
Quote: "Personally if I was Valve I'd tell you exactly where to shove your refund request"
Yeah, it really annoys me when people complete the games then send them back, if you want to do that rent it (ok PC games you can't) but that's not what refunds are for, if you liked the game enough to complete it whyTF do you want a refund?!

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:03
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Quote: "the realy annoying and obstructive protection system"


Strange, haven't even noticed it ONCE yet. I click the HL2 icon on my desktop, the game starts. Painless really.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
- Oscar Wilde
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:04
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Quote: "if you liked the game enough to complete it whyTF do you want a refund?!"


Exactly - if you didn't enjoy a movie, would you demand your ticket money back? It's the same thing. Bloody cheeky if you ask me.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Neofish
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:09
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Quote: "Exactly - if you didn't enjoy a movie, would you demand your ticket money back?"


Or go into an expensive restaurant, order everything, eat it all and say that it was crap and not pay....enough of the examples , I have only taken one game back, because it was really really really bad

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:11 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 23:16
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Quote: "Since when did they release HL2 on a "buy it, complete it and send it back for a refund because I didn't enjoy it" basis? "

They don't per se, but there is always a guarantee period... Actually I usually get rid of games through eBay.
I would be so much nicer if you could rent PC games instead of having to buy them outright.

Quote: "Exactly - if you didn't enjoy a movie, would you demand your ticket money back?"

I have been sorely tempted in the past...

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the_winch
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:12
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Only took me 3 hours to install thanks to the fact I didn't have enough free diskspace. Would have sorted it out in 5 minutes if steam had actually given a proper error message instead of "Half life 2 can not be played at this time".

Steam doesn't need to be connected, it askes you to start in offline mode if it can't connect. It still takes ages to load though.

I'd recommned you install it the day before you play it just so you are not so pissed off you can't enjoy the game.

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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:19 Edited at: 21st Nov 2004 23:34
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I didn`t buy it to have it trash my existing installs and make my life one long wait for progress bars of various varietys to crawl across the screen while denying me the internet and the use of my PC, and just like the bad movie you rent, you keep watching in the hopes that it gets better, thats the same thing you get with HL2, I was marginal happy with it, but this messing around with installs I already have, added to the constant downloading it goes into at the drop of a hat, are annoyances too far, just how much are us customers supposed to put up with from the publishers in their pursuit of perfect security? (a will-o-the-whisp anyway)

as I infered in the original post, the system is so obtrusive and irritating that people will soon be trying to find a way around it anyway, as long as they have a working install that they can just run when they please, then they won`t care, what you don`t want is every time you are online and decide to play a level you have to wait half an hour while some halfassed Steam update downloads before you can play, thats just obtrusive and stupid.

the first thing about the install of HL2 that annoyed me was that even though I had the DVD and the keycode, I STILL had to wait two hours while Steam did some downloads of undisclosed purpose, and that was after waiting two days to get accesse to their overloaded servers, the whole thing is just a major annoyance/irritant.

Mentor.

PS:

Quote: "if you didn't enjoy a movie, would you demand your ticket money back ?"


yes I have, they refunded I also demand refunds when things do not work as advertised or when they don`t work correctly, I have shelves of original software (going back to Frontier for eg), but HL2 will not be amongst em, the trouble is most people complain and do nothing or are so laid back they wouldn`t complain if rapeing their daughter was a condition of installing the software, if you don`t complain then people start walking all over you, it`s YOUR money they live off, you have a right to get what you expect, not what they condescend to allow you to have.

PPS:

LOL it just occured to me they should call it STEAMED!, has that effect on me.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:24
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Quote: "They don't per se, but there is always a guarantee period... Actually I usually get rid of games through eBay."


That's different, I have no objection to someone selling something they no longer require, I do it all the time! But asking for a refund after actually finishing a game is immoral.

Quote: "I would be so much nicer if you could rent PC games instead of having to buy them outright."


Agreed! Not that I would bother, I play precious few games on my PC as it is and couldn't be arsed with returning them, but I can see the appeal.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:35
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Quote: "But asking for a refund after actually finishing a game is immoral.
"

Dont see why - it can always be resold again... After unregistering the account from Steam.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:41
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It's a matter of opinion really, but think about what you are paying for - in my mind it is not the actual data on your PC, it's the experience of having played the game. It's nothing tangible though, but it's the same thing with a cinema - you're paying for the experience of seeing the film and, once you've seen it, no-one can take that experience away from you (heh, although sometimes you'd wish they could!). One day when we all have networks fast enough I doubt games will ever be downloaded to your PC, they'll just stream directly from the publishers server - making my point a little more comprehendable.

"I am not young enough to know everything."
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Posted: 21st Nov 2004 23:54 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 00:13
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LOL @ TCA, thats a new sales idea, then they could just press one copy and we could all wait for it to be returned and passed on to the next punter untill we got it, would be faster than Steam as well , wouldn`t make much money though would it?, my point is that they didn`t say on the box

Quote: "this installation will render all your existing Valve games unplayable untill they have gone through a long winded internet verification routine and the re-entering of all the CD keys, if you are on a 56k modem then this will take several hours and afterwards it may frequently force you too wait for downloads if you are online when you click the icon after a supposed "install", you have no option to exempt any of your existing game installations from this process."


if it did then I wouldn`t have bothered until someone had a hack for it, the trouble with these firms is they think everyone is on a 1mbs connection, it might just be a couple of seconds on broadband but 32mb is a major time wasteing download for me (and will probably be corrupted anyway), under these conditions and now finaly realising what a mess it has made of everything I think I should be allowed to return it (actualy I am...under the sale of goods act)

Mentor.

PS: it`s just jumped to THIS! I have no option to stop it, I tried and it aborts the download and stops the game from (eventualy) running (or at least I presume it does since I can`t run the game until its loaded)



the realy annoying thing being that I only play single player (being on 56k and slow with it), I DON`T NEED THE SODDING SERVER .....GRRR!

PC1: P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro w cooler (3rd gfx card), 6 way speakers.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 00:03 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 00:04
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Quote: "TCA, thats a new sales idea, then they could just press one copy and we could all wait for it to be returned and passed on to the next punter untill we got it, would be faster than Steam as well"

With any luck once SDSL gets up and running (or something better), it all you would need to download & pay for how long you need it. And if its done correctly there would be no need to install (and then uninstall), and it should be nice & cheap.
Music is at 99p, so assuming games would be charged higher (say at £2.99 per day), you would only need to pay £17.94 to fully play a game.
But thats assuming that DRM works correctly.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 00:39 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 00:53
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GRRRR! after all that, IT DOESN`T WORK!, all that happens when I click on the Halflife icon is that it starts a server, I DON`T WANT A SODDING SERVER, bloody idiot setup, (reaches for big uninstaller button), I WILL have my Halflife/Opposing force back.

Mentor .

EDIT: after all that it`s turned up in the taskbar for the Steam thingy , the original icon now starts a server (sods), so I selected the option to play Halflife and got THIS!



AAAAAARGH! at this rate I will have downloaded all of Valves servers before the sodding game runs , just what the HELL do they think they are doing, I own this game, have played it for years, I have the CD key etc, STOP MUCKING ME ABOUT!!!!!!!!!!


twits!

over two and a half hours to start a pre installed game on a 3ghz pc from clicking the icon, thats gotta be some kinda record

PC1: P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro w cooler (3rd gfx card), 6 way speakers.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 00:54
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Quote: "over two and a half hours to start a pre installed game on a 3ghz pc from clicking the icon, thats gotta be some kinda record "

You should see the Steam forums - it gets rather heated...

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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 01:21 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 01:25
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Mentor, someone at Valve clearly doesn't like you

The installation was completely painless for me (took around 10 minutes max). I was able to load and play the game without any problems at all.

Quote: " HL2 is now installed and running, some of the most annoying and dumb levels ever,"


I take it that the neat physics puzzles, clever AI, excellent graphics, gravity gun fun and immersive storyline are not working in your copy of the game

Quote: "I get THIS for thanks, a poor attempt of a sequel with boring "Kill the player repeatedly until he attains perfection or just lucks out" sections"


If you didn't die often it wouldn't be much of a game would it?

Listen Mentor, just take time out for a few days and come back to it later. Things will click into place and you'll enjoy it more.


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AnDrEy
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 01:27
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I hated steam since they introduced it. When I installed steam it destroyed cstrike, half-life and all my mods so I had to go to Dubai to get a half-life platinum pack. Had to go without cstike for half a year. Now I installed a steam+cs 1.6 from a PCG disk and it ruined everything again. I have to reinstall everything now. Valve are such dumbasses for getting steam. Its the worst "innovation" in gaming I can possibly think of .

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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 01:57
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and now it crashes, I get the "report this error to Microsoft?" dialogue, any attempt to run any of my saved games crashes too, I sat all the way through the intro sequence and as soon as you start the first section of the game proper, (where Barney tells you he had a bunch of messages but lost em in a system crash) just before you get the HEV suit, comes up, the game reports unable to load map xxx (where xxx is a map number) and it crashes bigtime, needs ctrl/alt/del to get out of it, SO! now we are up to almost Four hours and Halflife STILL won`t run, well done Valve <voice drips sarcasm>

Mentor.

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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:10
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I installed Halflife Platinum via Steam and it's so jacked up. Every time I try to change my settings it crashes. Then one of two things happens:

1. It restarts in software render mode, I have to change it again back to D3D or OpenGL, then it crashes again. Then it starts in software render mode again and now I can change the settings.

2. Or it just stops working and I have to reinstall the whole damn thing.

Mentor, lead us in an anti-Steam rebellion!!!

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Eric T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:15
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Hmmm funny, I haven't had any problems since the day I couldn't sign in. Works fine for me. I don't experience any of that "Auto Downloading" crap. Hell i am quite pleased with HL2 and only slightly displeased with Steam. All of my Steam games (which happens to be every Steam game) work 100% fine.

But meh, whatever floats yer boats.


http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/StairwayToHell.txt
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:33
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@RobK: (some slight spoilers)

Quote: "I take it that the neat physics puzzles, clever AI, excellent graphics, gravity gun fun and immersive storyline are not working in your copy of the game "


may I beg to differ a little , stacking weights (or in one case floats) to make things balance one way or another is painfully easy, since I work as an engineer for a living my knowledge of physics extends beyond seesaws and single loop pulleys, the clever AI is a modified Halflife AI with some improved pathfinding thrown in and some of the bots take a different low risk path to the player sometimes, I could code a simple example in a few days, the excellent GFX could apply to any game I wrote if I had the same artists, it`s nice eyecandy, but I don`t notice the cute GFX when I get playing.

the gravity gun is just another tool to allow the user to play with the physics, it was probably put in there originaly as a test tool and left in to make up the weapons list, rather like the bugbait, the "immersive storyline" was more than a little lacking and lacked pace (how come the women in these stories all act like schoolgirls with the hots and always manage to whup several heavily armed soldiers with nothing but their handbags? ), and owed more than a little to many well known science fiction stories, and parts where rather silly (although the administrator shareing his thoughts for the day was rather amuseing...fancied himself as a pocket philospher didn`t he) LOL

Quote: "If you didn't die often it wouldn't be much of a game would it?"


uh? so taking the same logic to real life... if people keep shooting you dead whenever you walk down the highstreet after ten of them corner you in an alley, then your having a great time? , I don`t die in games THAT often, I may not be a game Guru but just locking someone in a room with minimum cover and then spawning NPC`s for ten minutes does NOT make for a good game, trapping someone in an area with cover and the opportunity to dispatch a few with that clever physics while ensuring they don`t know where you are ALL the time, thats gameplay, ( the NPC`s always make straight for you, even when you are out of sight, I tested it)

not a bad effort, but not equaling the hype, like Doom III it was too linear (but not AS linear), Farcry was the better game for open ended, roaming about play, just had a silly plot and the character AI was weak, I could get from one end to the other of some Farcry maps and not be seen, great ammo and health preserver (although the eyesite on the mutant chimps was too good...they had xray vision sometimes)

Mentor.

PC1: P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro w cooler (3rd gfx card), 6 way speakers.
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 02:39
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Quote: "how come the women in these stories all act like schoolgirls with the hots and always manage to whup several heavily armed soldiers with nothing but their handbags? "


Obviously they're blunt weapon grandmasters... I discovered that watching Paycheck

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Ilya
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 03:20
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You do know that the Half-life dir is still there, just the shortcut was changed.
(That could be because I copied the HL dir from my other PC to avoid installing again)
(I have 2 copies of HL)
Here's what Steam(what's going to be coming out of you when you install it) is good for: Nothing.
The only reason I installed it was to play multiplayer, and it's crap.
(My favorite mod for HL is Scientist Slaughterhouse)

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Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 03:44
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Quote: "f people keep shooting you dead whenever you walk down the highstreet after ten of them corner you in an alley, then your having a great time?"


But Half-Life isn't real life, it is a game.

Quote: "I may not be a game Guru but just locking someone in a room with minimum cover and then spawning NPC`s for ten minutes does NOT make for a good game"


What part of the game are you thinking of?


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Eric T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 03:54
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He's refering to the part in Nova Prospekt we're your in that large room fighting off combine as they are surrounding you position.

Try that part on hard, pretty fun if ya ask me.


http://www.liquidzsnake.dbspot.com/StairwayToHell.txt
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 03:55
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The parts where you have to defend Alyx for a while...

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
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RalphY
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 04:01
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Heh, the Nova Prospekt part was pretty hard, until I realized you could take the drone guns and hide in one of the cells with the shotgun out to pick of any stragglers I think the whole point of those sections was that Valve was trying to create a feeling of epic large scale battles, but due to limitations in the number of charecters you can have on screen at one time, they had to just make them come in waves.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 04:05 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 04:07
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Quote: "until I realized you could take the drone guns and hide in one of the cells with the shotgun out to pick of any stragglers"

Yes - thats what I had to do too...

Quote: " think the whole point of those sections was that Valve was trying to create a feeling of epic large scale battles"

The Nova Prospekt one I found irritating, the rest were quite fun.

Walk softly... and carry a big gun...
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 06:17 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 06:22
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Quote: "He's refering to the part in Nova Prospekt we're your in that large room fighting off combine as they are surrounding you position."


That part was good fun

There is a difference between Serious Sam-style endless monster melees and the NP battle though - there is some strategy in there, it is not just a pointless slog. Once you work out where to place the turrents and which weapons to use it becomes quite easy.

Spoiler!


I know what you mean by games being frustrated when there is no strategy and it boils down to pinpoint accuracy and timing or just the amount of firepower and health you have, but I haven't encountered much of that yet. It was worth it to see DOG riding that rocket launching tank and lobbing it at the Combine at the start of AC-1 though


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Mentor
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 06:20 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 06:43
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POSSIBLE SPOILERS

thats the one that springs to mind, Nova Prospekt cells, but the ones where you have to defend..

Alyx in the security station
Alyx in the teleport station
Alyx at the controls of the generator in the square
or the Nova Prospekt control room for a set time before Alyx gets there

are almost as bad, the story goes nowhere, you just pump digital lead into digital idiots for ten minutes or so and then....nothing, end of stage is all, hardly fantastic gameplay imo, now, if the level had evolved somehow, walls blown down to admit next wave, more cover, suspended objects to shoot out the supports from and crush the scum, roof blowing open to admit absailing troops etc, that would be more fun, just hiding in a cell with threee turrets and standing em up if they fall over is boring IMO.

at the moment I am replaying the game from scratch and trying to find hard ways to do things, like walking up the river as far as possible and clearing a way, IMO the test of a good game is if you can replay it and find something new to do, so far it seems you are limited to following a pretty tightly defined path through the game, I would rather people stopped adding pretty artwork and added more gameplay, they could have retained the original Halflife graphics for me if they had concentrated more on the gameplay and level design, also I noticed Bert is still out there working (the guy who comes along and removes all your corpses you so lovingly created), it`s about time he was retired too.

[EDIT] I probably won`t return the game after all, but I would like to be able to complain directly to Valve somehow and make my points, it wouldn`t matter if they didn`t reply as long as they at least read em and took the valid ones on board (you can tell I`m calming down now ), it wouldn`t have hurt much to make the game 60 minutes shorter and just had the extra waves in the corridors and rooms around the place, rather than the very old and tired locked room gambit that doesnt do the AI any justice, you have to wonder just how smart theyare when they run into the line of fire from a turret and die for the 20th time.

Mentor.

PC1: P4 3ghz, 1gig mem, 3x160gig hd`s, Radeon 9800pro w cooler (3rd gfx card), 6 way speakers.
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 06:24
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Maybe old-school FPS games aren't really your genre Mentor? Have you ever played BattleZone or BattleZone 2? That mixes an FPS perspective with teamplay and strategy elements.


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RalphY
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 06:58
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If you want to complain to Valve directly Gabe Newell use to have his home telephone number on the Valve site. Not sure if its still there... Failing that though his email address can be found on the www.halflife2.net forums if you really want to complain
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Mentor
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 07:04
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ROFL, I LOVE fps games, I can play em all well enough too, what I am saying is that for a "cutting edge" game with so called advanced AI, locking the doors and spawning bots for ten minutes is a waste and BORING!!, it does nothing for the story, I have played Doom, DoomII, Hexen, Quake, QuakeII, Unreal, Unreal tourney, UT2004, QuakeIII, Unreal II, Halflife, Blueshift, RTCW, Opposing force, Gunman Chronicles, The Thing, Doom III and Halflife², and they all have one common trait, up to QuakeII/Unreal/HL, the technology improved in terms of story and gameplay (although the last part of Unreal was weird, I actualy LIKED Halflifes Zen though).

after that the games get more technical and have loads of features you don`t notice that much in play (but make for cool screenshots), but basic engine design LACKS, you still can`t heap up bodies around a door and then climb over them, you still can`t blow wooden/glass doors up unless allowed, you can`t blow a house apart or shoot out the base of a bridge and see it collapse unless scripted, fires don`t spread credibly, and water has some realy weird "Physics" in games, bots still rush blindly into line of fire, you have limits on the number of charcters on screen at one time, you don`t see patrols that act credibly (you don`t see patrols period), etc etc.

the main CORE of the modern game remains unchanged from what it was a decade ago, for all the hype and fancy claims the games still have the same basic ommisions they had when Quake II was wowing us in the aisles, THATS the gripe I have with em, no real improvement, and just running a shooting gallery for ten minutes every so often does NOT improve gameplay or hide the ommisions, just annoys me.

Mentor.

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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 07:51
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If you want something deeper, look to spinoff genres. FPSs are intended to be simple; if you want something more complex, look into tactical FPSs such as counter-strike, FPS/Strategy blends or FPS/RPG blends.

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Aoneweb
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 08:32
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Yet anotherunlocked half life thread, I count three now.

Toshiba Sattelite, 2GHz,Nvidia GeForce4 420go, Windows XP Home. www.aoneweb.com
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BearCDPOLD
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 09:24
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Quote: "but basic engine design LACKS, you still can`t heap up bodies around a door and then climb over them, you still can`t blow wooden/glass doors up unless allowed, you can`t blow a house apart or shoot out the base of a bridge and see it collapse unless scripted, fires don`t spread credibly, and water has some realy weird "Physics" in games, bots still rush blindly into line of fire, you have limits on the number of charcters on screen at one time, you don`t see patrols that act credibly (you don`t see patrols period), etc etc."


Mentor, I remember expecting that from a game a while ago, and I saw exactly what you see, a disappointment. I've come to realize that these are rather unrealistic expectations and we will probably not be able to see them in FPSs for a few years.

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greenlig
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 10:38
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lol, halflife 2 is the best game i have ever played. Ive been searching for a game where i can really get into and enjoy the scope and gradeur of it, and half life 2 has lived up to every single expectation. I decided not to get into speculation concerning it and just wait for it, and i bought it the day it came out, had a littel truouble getting it started, but eventually( 3 days later) i was able to play, and i would actually pay more money for a game of this calibre.

Nothing comes close.

I think people dont realise that a game is like a film, it is made by the developers who have an idea in mind, and make it exactly as they want. Im sure valve consider it a success, and for my money, it is. The developers didnt want to make a game to pander to everyones hopes, they amde the game they envisiaged, and i respect that, and enjoy the final product.

I think most people were waiting for "that awesome bit" that would change everything, but in fact, the best way to play it is to enjoy teh aura, get into the game, immerse yourself.

I cant stand players who just walk around without getting into it, killing the enemy and saying "look at that crap, he just walked into the line of fire. the engine sucks"...it destroys the game.

My 2 cents.

which is only like... .5 cents in US dollars... so it isnt really that much

Aust. Convention...get there!! http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=38799&b=2&p=1
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Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 16:20 Edited at: 22nd Nov 2004 16:28
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Quote: "the technology improved in terms of story and gameplay"


That's not exactly difficult - Doom, Doom II, Quake and Quake II etc. don't have storylines, apart from the same ridiculous nonsense about "forces of hell unleashed", which is really just a Carté Blanche excuse for level designers to create whatever suits their fancy.

I should point out that puzzles in these games were never more complex that "Get the key, Open this door"

Quote: "you still can`t blow wooden/glass doors up unless allowed, you can`t blow a house apart or shoot out the base of a bridge and see it collapse unless scripted, fires don`t spread credibly, and water has some realy weird "Physics" in games,"


I think you are expecting way too much from a game engine. Gabe Newell commented that you *could* build a house out of wood in Source which would be completely destructable, but very few computers could cope with the physics calculations involved. The water "physics" are kept very simple for the same reason.

As for other restrictions, level designers have to limit what you are allowed to do otherwise you could avoid any puzzles in the level.


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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 18:38
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Steam is awesome. Usually it's a problem with the computer, not with Steam. It's a very well made content delivery system.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 18:47
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Doubtful - people have had Steam crash through the decryption process and other nasty things.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 19:14
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You know what I find weird... Half-Life (without the CD) downloaded in a few minutes, about 5 i think; the main wait is the 15MB Engine download; unless your downloading HL:Source, even then if you already have CS:S or HL2 then you'll have the main engine, materials, etc..

Never had a problem registering my CD keys; although I did buy a 2nd copy of HL2 for my brother, tried to register it saturday and it keeps telling me the key is already registered with his name. But when we run it, won't let him play cause it says there is no valid key.

Was pretty annoying, so just installed it on his system and registered the copy with my name; but won't be able to play online now which kinda defeats the whole point in buying him the copy

apart from that not really had any horror stories of my own with steam, and HL2 seems pretty quick to me; even on my FX5200 machine; I'd of thought it'd choke badly.
when I run it normally have to run it in DirectX8.1 mode, cause the speed sucks.. but if I set it to Half-Life2 game in the nView panel, I can run it in DirectX9 mode just as fast. Something about unoptimised Shader 2.0 makes it run like a dog.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 19:28
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Its amusing the amount of dispair that Steam has uncovered at the steampowered forums - it doesn't help that the moderators keep enabling & disabling the search system (that gets as many complaints as well)... Some people are also contemplating whether (more) legal action could be taken against Value and/or Vivendi...
Given American penchant for lining lawyers pockets, I can certainly see that happening...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 21:24
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Steam is a good system and idea.. just, how it is implimented isn't quite on the mark.
Typical pioneers of technology, never fully testing or thinking something through before using it.

That said, I'm sure we'll be seeing similar systems from others (cough::microsoft::cough) that will have spent longer in development, and a better thought through system.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 22nd Nov 2004 21:35
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Well, the Windows Update system isn't bad at all - and thats fairly similar.

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Rob K
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 01:09
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Quote: "Steam is a good system and idea.. just, how it is implimented isn't quite on the mark."


I agree - hopefully Valve will be able to work the kinks out by the time their next game is released.


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Redmotion
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Posted: 23rd Nov 2004 03:04
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Mentor! I'm afraid I can only greet your comments with derision.

Did you ever play System Shock 2? You missed that from your list. System shock pre-dated Deux Ex by at least 5 years. It was extremely different from the rest of the fps crew at the time and had one of the best storylines ever.

HL2 is among the best games I've ever played. It's beauty is it's simplicity. Which makes it accessable to many people. It sits next to burnout3 and GTA:San Andreas as some of the best games ever released. AND ALL IN THE LAST FEW MONTHS! Gamings never been better!

Half Life is the only game I've played through more than twice. But I have to say the section on the rails is a very tedious level. It doesn't remotely compare to driving the buggy or the speed boat. Or messing about with magnetic crane. Or commanding the antlions and placing gun emplacements to keep some of the soldiers at bay. (Took me 10 attempts to get through the last bit of Nova Prospekt, but it an adrenaline rush all the way.)

If you lot can't summon a little bit of happiness over this game, i feel truely sorry for you. You'll never be happy. Or are you intending to release your own HL2 beater in the near future?!! Realistic physics in games is the future.

Anyway, I can't be bothered to talk about this anymore. I wanna play HL2. I love it. I think I'll play it at least 4 times! then I'll start modding! I LOVE VALVE!

PROJECTS:
Scorched Real Estate - beta release scheduled for october
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