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Geek Culture / MUD PROJECT!!!

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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 03:52
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Ok. so your probably wondering, who the heck is this retard who thinks he can program a mud in DB. Well its possible folks. I've researching this sorta stuff for weeks now and I'm already looking into programming windos sockets and the like for a server for this game. This is a project for everybody. Just post any info you know about muds, sockets, servers, c/c++, and anything else that might help with this project. Thanks.
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 03:55
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You know nothing about multiplayer systems, but you're saying you've done your research and know your goal is possible? Sure, it happens to be, but that makes this entire thing seem rather-- no, incredibly doubtful.

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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 03:57
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Boy. all i get is alot of unhappy campers on this site. geez!!! what is the world coming to!!!
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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:03
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Quote: " Just post any info you know about muds, sockets, servers, c/c++, and anything else that might help with this project. Thanks"


yes, what IS the world coming to?

do your own research, this stuff is in ample supply all over the place


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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:05
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k u guys took this the wrong way. im not sayin "WRITE A MUD AND A SERVER FOR ME NOW" im just asking for help and ideas.
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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:07
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and y cant anybody help a kid (13 years of age) out? u ppl are just mean. i want my mommy!!!!!! o i almost fogot my binky! lol sorry guys. i just couldnt help myself.lol
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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:08
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well if your not looking for code, then post in the game design board..

if you're looking for code, you're better off checking out websites where this stuff is at, or checking the codebase for client/server snippets and designing some kind of an engine on paper before you start programming it


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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:11
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ok. wheres the client/server snippets and i searched every where for a tutorial on programming a mud and there is none. o and please change that pick it gives me nightmares. and im serious.
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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:16
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my avatar??!! O_O Are you dissin' the avatar?? Ohhhh now you made me angry...

Oh wait... no, no ya didn't..

Anyway...

Program a one player text adventure game..

There's bucketloads of one player text adventure game tutorials out there... search for on google "text adventure programming tutorial" or something...

Most of the code you find can be translatable to dbp..

If you have problems with that, then feel free to post in the dbp forum for questions.

And when I say that, I mean, specific problems for one or two lines of code that you don't know how to convert to dbp

Good luck to ye!


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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:21 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 04:22
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but how the heck would u have problems with a 1 player text adventure game. i mean there might be 1 or 2 probs at the most but come on that would be lame if u had any more probs. and anyway the hardest part in a mud is payin for a some1 else to host it or even harder is makin a sever for urself which i intend to learn how to.
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Ilya
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:49 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 04:55
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Quote: " k u guys took this the wrong way. im not sayin "WRITE A MUD AND A SERVER FOR ME NOW" im just asking for help and ideas."

Note: Use proper grammer and spelling. You don't have 1 second to live.

And, this.

Quote: "so your probably wondering, who the heck is this retard who thinks he can program a mud in DB."

Nope. How long have you used DB? 1 day? 2?

Quote: "This is a project for everybody. Just post any info you know about muds, sockets, servers, c/c++, and anything else that might help with this project."

Everybody that wants to do it(soon to be 0 people).
MUDs are online text games. Moving on(oh wait, we've already done that)...
And why would you use C++ in a DB game?

Quote: " and y cant anybody help a kid (13 years of age) out?"

Because he can't help himself out and use Google.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Jeku
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:52 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 04:53
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Quote: "but how the heck would u have problems with a 1 player text adventure game. i mean there might be 1 or 2 probs at the most but come on that would be lame if u had any more probs."


You can't say that until you've tried it. Making a REAL text adventure game is harder than you think. You need to create a parser to analyze nouns, verbs, actions, etc. Just having hundreds of IF statements for each room is cheating, by the way.


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Ilya
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:55
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If it's online, you need less of that.
You could have options.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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bitJericho
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 04:55
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Quote: " i mean there might be 1 or 2 probs at the most but come on that would be lame if u had any more probs"


lol, I was just about to say everything jeku just said... and I hate to say this, but if you don't like or haven't played any text adventures, then what makes you think you'll enjoy a mud?

You can't write a mud without writing a text adventure anyway


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Dazzag
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 06:29 Edited at: 9th Dec 2004 06:31
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Heh, love that. A fully functional text adventure parser has got to be easy right? No big deal just translating almost anything you can type obviously. Have a little think about how you would translate what I could possibly type in and all the different uses of sentences, and we'll see your effort in about a year.
How about : PICK UP THE BOTTLE AND FILL WITH WATER FROM TAP THEN INSERT STRAW
Think about the different ways of typing that effort. If you are using something like:
IF I$="PICK UP THE BOTTLE AND FILL WITH WATER FROM TAP THEN INSERT STRAW" OR I$="INSERT STRAW INTO BOTTLE AFTER FILLING WITH TAP WATER" OR I$="blah blah blah" ...etc... THEN PRINT "You fill the bottle with water and insert the straw"

Then give up now. Totally wrong way to go about things. And don't think the above is too complicated; I played spectrum text adventures 20 years ago that were like that. (that's 2 decades ago on a machine with 48k of memory)

If you really want to write a text adventure (IF - Interactive fiction nowadays) then google it. There are tonnes of tools to write them that are far better than DB (parsers already written). And MUD writing utilities. Hell, I remember even looking at some VB MUD code years ago, just look around. There is even a yearly IF competition that looks pretty cool if you have the time.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 06:32
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The parser's probably the hardest part there is, but there's also coding all the possible interactions and responses between the objects, and the objects themselves; the various types and their assorted properties. Text adventures are not easy. I haven't seen a single one from a newbie coder in fact .

And if you think so, there's absolutely no way you're ready to attempt a MUD.

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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 07:05
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ok im that much of a newbie because i basically know all the commands in db enhanced for the 2d everything else besides 3d.
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Ian T
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 07:39
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MUDs are text based

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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 9th Dec 2004 08:59
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i know
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bitJericho
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it's not a "2d" game.. It's a text game... just because you know a command doesn't mean you know how to use it..

Please, do tell us the logic behind your text parser..

Maybe, just maybe, then we'll sway your way and give ya some pointers... Nobody's gonna tell you how to write a parser, it's too damn complicated for us to waste our time. If you don't understand enough to come up with a system on your own, you're not ready to make a mud.


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Ilya
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 05:42
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He could make a MUD provided he knows English and is more bored than a person trapped for a year in a small, windowless room and parilized from the neck down.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Qwisats Haderach
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ok whatever guys so maybee im not ready to make a mud. but let me ask u guys some questions. when i am ready to make a mud can i run it on an apache server? i have dsl will that be fast enough to run it on? is linux better than windows if so, for what reasons?
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bitJericho
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 10:10
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Quote: "when i am ready to make a mud can i run it on an apache server? i have dsl will that be fast enough to run it on? is linux better than windows if so, for what reasons?"


when you're ready to make a mud you'll know the answers to these silly, silly questions


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Ilya
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 10:18 Edited at: 10th Dec 2004 10:19
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Quote: "can i run it on an apache server?"

Yeah, right. You run it in whatever you make it in, unless it uses a SQL database.

Quote: "i have dsl will that be fast enough to run it on?"

That depends on, uh, how many people are playing.

Quote: "is linux better than windows if so, for what reasons?"

Well, it's faster. It's a lot less cheep("Windows will now install adware on your computer. With the adware comes the next patch. Adware is just a bunch of stuff that Microsoft likes(because it makes them money). It's a bunch of stuff that you have the option of using(once you hack it and figure out what it is)" <Next Windows Patch). It has a lot less software.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 10:23
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Quote: "Adware is just a bunch of stuff that Microsoft likes(because it makes them money). "


Huh? Come again?


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Ilya
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Posted: 10th Dec 2004 10:24
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I'm making stuff up for the next W patch...
(I haven't seen any adware from Microsoft)
(Yet)

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


Quote: "We shouldn't sacrifice the truth to preserve "balance"."
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LordAnki
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I'm sure Microsoft is making some adware.

Okay anyways back on topic.

You are going to have to create several programs.

1) The Server Program, the server program holds all the data, the mob, the rooms, items etc. In that you need to have it handle incoming connections from the client program (explained below).

2) Client Program, this is hte pgoram that connects to the server and sends data to the server and then the server sends it back. Thisis waht the user uses to play ur game.

3) Room Builder (Optional) This is the program that will easily create the files for your rooms (or areas w/e u wanna call them)

Those are just some programs that you would have to create that go hand in hand.

THEREFORE

1) You cant use apache as your server
2) Yes, yhou can use DSL if you have like a few people playing
3) Umm, linux is way better than windows but I think DB only works on Windows. Yeah because windows uses DirectX which is what DB uses and DirectX isn't part of Linux because Linux uses the almightier OpenGL!
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Delfir
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Quote: "is linux better than windows "


Well, I don't even think you can run DBC or DBP applications in Linux anyway. Is this true?

wtf?
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Wiggett
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Posted: 12th Dec 2004 17:54
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since when did muds have to be text, multi user dimension is what i thought it stood for, sure there are gmud's, but unless its a tmud im sure it can have graphics of some sort.

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Mnemonix
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It doesnt have to be text only. I think its just commonplace for a MUD to be text only nowadays. You can run the server on linux since the server doesnt require direct x.

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Benjamin
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I remember playing a Spectrum game on an emulator, that was a text based adventure with images.

CURRENT PROJECT: Chaos Hizzle Demo
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Qwisats Haderach
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Hey guys i just found a tutorial on making a text adventure game and from the looks of it, it seems quite simple really and its in C/C++!
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Dazzag
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Doesn't happen to be like those really simple ones in VB by any chance? There is tonnes of that rubbish on the net. And just because it's written in C makes no difference. Just arrives at a rubbish conclusion slightly faster is all.

If you even attempt to make a text adventure using some of the proper tools out there (everything from 20 year old speccy efforts such as PAW, to newer stuff like TADS) you will find that just getting the language setup right is quite an effort, even with a head start (TADS is pretty good for instance) of the parser being mostly there apart from your own words. But starting from scratch would be a laugh.

Bit like saying a cross over compiler of DAZBASIC to DB would be easy. Yes, all I need is IF A$="DAZPRINT" THEN B$="PRINT". But look into compiling like slightly more and it's hellishly more complicated when done right.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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Qwisats Haderach
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 04:04
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Um actually i'll just give you link and you can check it out. kk!

http://www.gametutorials.com/Tutorials/GT/GT_Pg1.htm
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JeBuS
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 04:25
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Those tutorials are to introduce you to programming, not specifically to show you how to make a MUD. You still have to come up with a way to decipher user input, and come up with a story.


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Qwisats Haderach
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Yea but didnt you see the way he had everything in a text file. i thought that was pretty cool!
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Dazzag
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Dude, thats even lower than the easy tutorials you see online. I mean c'mon, there isn't even a common list of words that mean the same thing. eg. you can't type N instead of north. This is as simple as it gets.

Everything in a text file? What, you were actually thinking of programming the parser and vocab directly???? No thought to a database (even if it is just a text file, and not something more fancy) then? I mean.... "Hmmm... no N for north eh?, I'll just re-compile and then give out the 10mb file again...". Erm, no... And that example is as much as a parser as typing IF statements for every single possible sentence you could ever make. ie. you don't do it that way. And just because it is written in C doesn't make it any better. Load of rubbish basically.

Just use a proper text adventure creator. The parser is pretty much done for you without having to write it from scratch.

Cheers

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Qwisats Haderach
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i dont want to use text adventure creator because that would be cheating. So if you be so kind as to point me in the right direction on making a parser, it would be greatly appreciated.
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indi
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 10:57
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you could try pulling this apart and modifying for your needs.


If no-one gives your an answer to a question you have asked, consider:- Is your question clear.- Did you ask nicely.- Are you showing any effort to solve the problem yourself
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Dazzag
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Why do you want to re-invent the wheel? To make a good parser requires a hell of a lot more complex coding than IF A$="NORTH" THEN blah blah blah. If you really want to do it from scratch then google for things like language parser, adventure parser program/ code etc. Keep it simple though. eg. no more complex than GET AXE or CHOP TREE. Otherwise could get into a whole world of pain. eg. try using the previous statements to handle every combo. eg. GET AXE AND CHOP TREE or CHOP TREE WITH AXE or FELL TREE WITH AXE or USE AXE TO CHOP THE TREE or DESTROY TREE WITH THE AXE or GET THE AXE AND CHOP THE TREE TO THE GROUND. You get the idea.... Unfortuantly you will end up with a frustrating game that keeps saying "I don't understand". Unless you put a *lot* of time aside to load in all combos. Even with a proper parsing system (ie. it takes all those sentences and comes up with the same command eg. CHOP TREE WITH AXE, without having to enter all the different sentences into it) it will take a little effort to accomplish.

Cheers

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Ian T
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I admire Dazzag's patience, and you really ought to listen to him .

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Qwisats Haderach
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hey maybe i could use xml???
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bitJericho
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x_x

why don't you come up with a plan or something, with a *lot* more work than 20 minutes of reading, like, come back with a 5+ page document describing in detail with images and things what you plan or want to do, and stick it in the game design forum..

This thread is DEAD.. DEEEAAADDD... there's no more knowledge you could possibly soak up from it.. Let it go, do some research, come back when you're prepared and ready.


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orv
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Aw Jerico,
You're bein' just too mean.

Firstly,
MUDs are Multi User Dungeons (according to a couple of books I have on the history of video games).

The first MUDs had to be text based, everything was text based back then!

Remember the TRS-80? They had a game for it called Pyramid 2000.
It was a text based adventure where you explore a (you guessed it) pyramid!

Well, when I got my first "real" computer (an Atari 400), I wrote my own version of that game in Atari BASIC for myself. It completely worked! (stops to reach around and pat himself on the back).

Actually, all this has brought up an idea. If you want to create a text-based MUD, a real good platform to develop it in would be a web site. One that allows server-sided scripting and some sort of a database (MS Access or mySQL). That setup should be able to handle anything that you want to do for a text based, multi-user game!

In fact, (I'm inspired), I think I might just write one and put it out on my web site (I'm am serious here).

Oh, by the way, I'm not some 10 year old who doesn't know how to program, I'm 41 and have been programming for a living for 20+ years and for fun 25+ years!

NOTE REGARDING TEXT COMMAND ENTRY
Examples given previously are all these compond-complex sentences. Text-based games do not need to have such complex syntaxes to work. Commands that are 1,2,3 words long are just find.
If the user puts in something else, the computer can say something like: "I can't understand what you're trying to say."

Multi-User Talking
You could make it so any line that begins with "SAY " will strip the SAY part off and send the rest to other users in the room/area.

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Benjamin
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Quote: "Unless you put a *lot* of time aside to load in all combos."

Yes it would take ages, and would use a lot more memory than needed, but its possible that way, and everyone does their game diffently. Are you trying to tell him unless he makes a l33t parser he can't make a MUD?

CURRENT PROJECT: Chaos Hizzle Demo
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bitJericho
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 04:59 Edited at: 16th Dec 2004 05:02
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orv, you obviously haven't clicked on my banner

Text based MUD for all intents and purposes. Though I didn't make it, it's easy to make new places and things utilizing the engine, you may be interested to check it out, and check out the modder community, available through the logd website.

Follow the banner to play against us fellow coders,
follow http://www.lotgd.net to get to the modder community.


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orv
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Jerico,

ahhhh. I have banners turned off since I find some of them offensive.

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Dazzag
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Quote: "Examples given previously are all these compond-complex sentences. Text-based games do not need to have such complex syntaxes to work"
Yes, but as I said you would end up with a seriously simple (ie. not very user friendly or fun) parser. Whats the point when you could use a ready made adventure creator that has a fully written parser? It's won't help teach anything apart from the *very* basic of programming principles, and will end up with a product that is vastly inferior just about anything out there. Look at IF competitions and the complexity is amazing, and has been for years.

If you want to do something interesting then write a simple effort (as suggested) in ASP or PHP (linked to say MySQL or even Access). Not only is it an interesting exercise but is actually a really useful tool for future employment. Was contemplating this myself a few months ago when I was mucking around with ASP a bit. Just don't have the time.

Interestingly I wrote an adventure game creator for my computer science degree third year project (you have pretty much the whole year, especially if you avoid all lectures) back a decade or so ago. Did it on a Mac, in... ummmmm..... HyperCard I believe. Was a little like VB became (after the VB-DOS version) later, but with amazingly good compilation on English sentences. Sometimes you could just type something in english to see what happens if you were stuck, and it would work. Anyhows, mine was one of those icon based adventures (no typing, just icons for directions, commands etc). But the setup was similar, with a map planner, object handler.... hmmmm.... was most fun.... especially if expanded for the web.....

Damn, I hate bloody working. At least in Uni you could skip all lectures and do whatever programming you wanted. Inbetween beer and birds of course

So in other words, my advise is use an adventure creator (TADS looks good if I remember rightly), or write a simple effort. But not in DB. At least in a language that could come in handy commercially in the future (you don't come across as in your 30's - no offence). And a well done parser would be applauded here (even though it's graphicstastic here people mainly appreciate the code - ie. leave your large brown matrices at the door please), but a lot of people will think they could code the same simple effort in no time.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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orv
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 05:31
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Dazzag:
Most of the text based games I played in the 70's and 80's used short and simple sentences and worked great and were alot of fun.
Pyramid 2000 was one, Zork the great Underground Empire was another, the original Colossal Caves was another.

I wrote another version of P2000 at my old job in the evenings in Business BASIC (which most people have never heard of) and a friend played it and thought the computer sounded intelligent!

It's dialect was just a couple hundred phrases... but good enough!

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Dazzag
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 05:40
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I know what you are saying, but we are talking about stuff that was created before most people here were born! Hell, even when I was knocking about with early spectrum adventures they got more complicated than that. And my experiences of MUDs (mainly University) tended to show that the parsers were less complex than some of the better adventures out there, but they were normally more sophisticated than a simple two word IF THEN effort. And any that were like that didn't last for long.

Hmmm... come to think of it haven't been to a proper MUD for years.... wonder if Discworld is still going.....

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
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