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Geek Culture / Look's like BlitzMax was released just a few days ago!

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DrakeX
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 06:56
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"What if they make Blitz3D code compatable with BlitzMax?"

umm, no. look where "backwards compatibility" got DBP. most of the differences between B3D and BMX are very minor as well - using the more standard period for type field access instead of the backslash, using apostrophe for comments instead of semicolons, etc.

BMX is NOT that much different from B3D (or, for that matter DBP - they're all BASIC languages after all). i mean, look at this, and tell me that you don't understand what's going on:



tell me that's complicated.

i think most of the animosity towards BMX is the same old irrational, baseless hate of the opponent that has pervaded both communities for years, for the sole fact that, well, they're competitors. there is no need for fanboyism. please TRY some of the other languages out there before making some rather stupid statements.

van - i'm not real sure where you're getting your, well, blatant distaste for blitz basic. you yourself have said that you've never tried it before. how can you form any kind of opinion about it without experience? additionally, you seem to be acting abnormally thickheaded when it comes to the idea that BMX was written partially in itself. it isn't a very difficult concept - how many libraries are there out there for C and C++ that are written in C and C++? what exactly do C and C++ do without them? pretty much nothing. the same thing applies to BMX - as it's a general programming language, it does very little without runtime libraries. and the runtime libraries are written in itself. it's also a sort of test of the language - a bit like TGC writing FPSC in DBP.

i will say it again: there ARE other languages out there *besides dark basic!* they are not bad! you might actually find a language that you like better! just.. try something new!

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
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empty
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 06:57 Edited at: 14th Dec 2004 06:59
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Quote: "In what sense?"


Well, I can only tell that from the examples posted on the forums (new and old). So some points might be wrong.
First of all why have two different ways to create an object of a class (via calling a function Create:Foo, defined within the class, or with the "new" statement) that eventually aren't the same (do the same)? This makes reading the source unnecessarily complicated. Also using the syntax "function Create:Foo" as a constructor... well the : is used to define a type of variables as well, but this is something complete different. If there are "Methods" and "Functions", why not use an explicit "Constructor" keyword (or something similar). Technically a constructor is a method of a class, rather than a Function (in this context) that doesn't have direct access to the properties (or fields) inside the class. I see that the distinction of functions and methods makes sense in connection with the unusual way types are implemented in Blitz, but still... Additionally I haven't seen (remember the disclaimer above ) a way to declare fields or methods as private, abstract or virtual. And finally a question: is polymorphism possible?



Quote: "i think this falls under semantics of the statement "

?

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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 07:24 Edited at: 14th Dec 2004 07:25
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Quote: "First of all why have two different ways to create an object of a class (via calling a function Create:Foo, defined within the class, or with the "new" statement) that eventually aren't the same (do the same)?"


The whole "Create:Foo" idea is not part of the language, unlike the "New" operator, its just like the way that in C# for example, some objects can be created using methods other than using the New keyword directly (ie. by calling a static function inside the class which might, for example, return a new object which is "preloaded" with certain values. Eg a Color class might have a Color.Create(Red,Blue,Green) method as an alternative to New)

The limitation of New in BMX is that it doesn't accept parameters, hence the need for Create functions (or whatever you want to call them, they don't need to be called Create). It seems that it would have made sense for the optional New method (which is called automatically when you create an object using the New keyword), to support parameters. I don't know whether function / method overloading is supported or not though. If it isn't then it makes New a bit less useful anyway.

Quote: " Additionally I haven't seen (remember the disclaimer above ) a way to declare fields or methods as private, abstract or virtual."


I'm not sure about making fields or methods private, but I know that Abstract is definately supported, and the compiler decides whether a function is virtual or non-virtual for you. I'm not sure how it works internally, but as far as the end user is concerned, you don't need to worry.


Quote: "And finally a question: is polymorphism possible?"


Yes. I hate that word though, it seems like an elitist way of describing a fairly simple idea, which makes it difficult for beginners to understand.


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empty
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 08:02
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Quote: "The whole "Create:Foo" idea is not part of the language, unlike the "New" operator, its just like the way that in C# for example, some objects can be created using methods other than using the New keyword directly (ie. by calling a static function inside the class which might, for example, return a new object which is "preloaded" with certain values. Eg a Color class might have a Color.Create(Red,Blue,Green) method as an alternative to New)

The limitation of New in BMX is that it doesn't accept parameters, hence the need for Create functions (or whatever you want to call them, they don't need to be called Create). It seems that it would have made sense for the optional New method (which is called automatically when you create an object using the New keyword), to support parameters. I don't know whether function / method overloading is supported or not though. If it isn't then it makes New a bit less useful anyway."

Syntax-wise in BMax a New statement that allows optional parameters would be more consistant. Anyway that was (part of) my point, it'd be OK to have the option to either create a new object by either calling a method or using New if you could use both to do the same things. A better implementation of "New" would make this option superflouos, though.
I agree that overloading is essential for that.


Quote: "I'm not sure about making fields or methods private, but I know that Abstract is definately supported, and the compiler decides whether a function is virtual or non-virtual for you. I'm not sure how it works internally, but as far as the end user is concerned, you don't need to worry."

Ah ok, thanks. The virtual parts is interesting.


Quote: "I hate that word though, it seems like an elitist way of describing a fairly simple idea, which makes it difficult for beginners to understand."

Absolutely.

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DrakeX
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 08:17
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"I'm not sure how it works internally"

probably works like D - that is, if a function is overloaded in a child class, it is deemed virtual in the base class; otherwise, it is non-virtual. i can't really think of many (or for that matter, ANY) time when you'd need otherwise. it just makes polymorphism easier to use.

i say we come up with a better term for polymorphism. how about "the ability to cast child classes to parent class pointers, and then have the ability to call a function on it and have it select the appropriate one"? seems pretty concise

i think perhaps the lack of public/private/protected might make the OO of BMX a little less useful.. i mean, if all members are public, then what's the point in even having class methods other than to have a slightly different syntactical style (ball.Render() instead of Render(ball))?

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
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Rob K
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Posted: 14th Dec 2004 21:29
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Quote: "i think perhaps the lack of public/private/protected might make the OO of BMX a little less useful.. i mean, if all members are public, then what's the point in even having class methods other than to have a slightly different syntactical style"


Inheritance for a start. Looking at the module code, the Max2D module makes very good use of this. It has a TMax2DDriver base class, which has abstract methods like DrawText, DrawOval etc. The actual methods are implemented in the derived TGLMax2DDriver class (I might have the name wrong - I can't look it up right now).

The Max2D.bmx module doesn't care what implementation is being used, it just calls the driver functions. This would make it possible to add software rendering or DirectX in future for example (although it is unlikely to happen).


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DrakeX
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 09:20
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that's true. still, it'd be nice to at least have public/protected (how often have you NOT wanted to inherit some member functions with private?).

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 09:39
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Quote: "
[quote]And finally a question: is polymorphism possible?"


Yes. I hate that word though, it seems like an elitist way of describing a fairly simple idea, which makes it difficult for beginners to understand.[/quote]

I have no idea what polymorphism is, but I can bet your bottom dollar I've used it before. It's like Object Orientated Programming, I'm still clueless to it's total meaning... but considering C# uses it almost exclusively aparently, then I use it almost daily.

I mean as far as I'm conserned, Object Orientate comes from simply being able to attach and adapt an object (structured memory) as a whole, as an individual item or as a group.

This can include but wouldn't need to, inherited function and structured data. Where the data is passed as a single block of memory directly available to that Function / Structure.

However I've been told my definition is wrong, because C isn't OO. Yet you can do everything I've said in C.

Really the programming terminology looses me. That said Graphcis terminology seems to be perpetuated now by people who don't have a clue what the terms even mean and as such they are not stigmatised to incorrect effects or techniques.
(that does truely piss me off as it means it is now harder to talk to other artists as to them given terms mean one thing to me and different things to them.
Example: Facet Shading means nothing to alot of people other than CG/Game Artists, and is known as Flat Shading to programmers and amatures. Yet Flat Shading to myself and large number of other artists means single colour shading (as in non) Across a given object. As such you would Flat Shade a model prior to Cell Shading.
Flat Normal Shading however to me would mean Faceted. It's all a vicious problem of idiots having control over terminology!)

The only thing that keeps Blitz3D and BlitzMax apart as languages are the classes. You can do something in Blitz3D and it'll work the same in BlitzMax using just the language.
DB -> DBP however that isn't true, as things do work quite differently under the hood. This is quite a shame.


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Ilya
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 10:28
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Polymorphism is probably the morphing of polygons. Moving them around.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


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Van B
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 17:14
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There is 100,000 miles of difference between Blitzmax and C, and C++, and Pascal for that matter. Those are all industry standard languages. If you take the source code to a C compiler in C, and compile it in that compiler - does that mean that C was written in C?

Blitzmax may well have modules that have been compiled with it's compiler, but does anyone NOT understand why I disagreed with the statement that Blitzmax is written in Blitzmax?

As for my opinions on Blitz, well I must admit they're not entirely language based, it's more to do with the welcome commitee I got from Blitzcoder. Or it could be the attitude I got when I complained about a 911 photograph being used as a game title screen on their showcase. Or maybe all the blitz trolls that come here every so often just to stir things up. I don't have any real opinions about the language itself, just the community - but don't think my opinions are based on fanboy arrogance for a second.


Van-B


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adr
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 17:35 Edited at: 15th Dec 2004 17:42
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EDIT: I'm sure this started out as a meaningful post, but it got changed so much it's just a brief overview of OO. Possibly off topic, but also possibly helpful to anyone who isn't sure about OO.


My slant on OO is that it helps conceptual understanding of programming. Instead of having a gazillion functions, you have a couple of objects, which can be instanced. Makes perfect sense to me ...

When we were taught OO, we had a very simple conceptual example with no coding involved (was quite annoying for the first few weeks not learning any C++, but looking back, I appreciated the theory):

You have a VCR. If you describe the properties and functions of a VCR, by and large, these properties and functions are specific to a VCR; You can't eject() a frisbee, for example.

However, if you have a KitchenAppliance Object and you give it on() and off() functions, as well as make, model and wattage properties you have just generalised your Kitchen Appliances. The object embodies the broad functionality of your toaster, microwave, and I guess the fridge too. Your Fridge can be turned on, off, it has a make, model and wattage, but it also has a temperature. Since you've already designed and written your Kitchen Appliance, why not have the new Fridge class inherit the functionality of KitchenAppliances? So the fridge is now just like every other KitchenAppliance, except it has a temperature property...

I know it's just syntactic sugar, but object->function() reads a lot more nicely and if you know object is of type SpaceShip, you instantly get a feeling for what it's capable of....

Now the whole private, protected and public stuff has always seemed a bit pointless to me. If you don't want to be able to call a function (when inherited or not) you know what? Don't call it.

As for polymorphism, d'you know I don't know of an example of where that's actually useful? I could give you theoretical situations where multiple inheritence could be useful (Fridge with a built in VCR, anyone?), but polymorphism evades me...


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 19:37 Edited at: 15th Dec 2004 19:38
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Quote: "but does anyone NOT understand why I disagreed with the statement that Blitzmax is written in Blitzmax?
"

Dont worry - I get it. And for those who need words of 1 syllable or less, take the following :

A) Start with nothing
B) You want to write the language BlitzMax. You cant use BlitzMax to write BlitzMax as it doesn't exist, therefore you have to use something else (ie C), or some other language that already exists. If no language exists use Assembler.
C) Only when BlitzMax finally gets finished can you write programs in BlitzMax.
D) At which point you could re-write BlitzMax in BlitzMax, but there would be no real point - unless BlitzMax is better than the program used to create it.

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adr
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 19:47
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I'd just like to say, for the purposes of international peace, I wasn't disagreeing with anyone's statements, I just remember seeing the source for the C Compiler, and thought it amusing/interesting. Understandably, it isn't strictly C, it's some kinda simple dialect for C...


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 20:19
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Quote: "I'm a little confused as to what the market is for Blitz Max. Fairly experienced coders who can't be bothered to use C++?"


I believe the market for BlitzMax is quite simply the current Blitz market. So yes that places them at the more experienced end of the range. It seems to be a language written specifically for them, rather than under some agenda to draw in the newbie masses. There isn't anything wrong with this approach, after all they are an active enough group of people, you might as well target them first.

Having just installed my version and not yet really played with it fully I will hold off any comments on the syntax / etc for now. One thing I was interested to find though - you can't install it without having XCode on your Mac (which is not included as standard). That's the Mac equivalent of saying "you can't install DBPro without having Dev C++ installed" (as XCode is free). This does surprise me, but with the vast range of Mac OSX versions / processors / etc out there, it has some logic in it. Why it wasn't supplied as a standard DMG is a little unusual.

I don't think we're going to see a mass trolling of Blitz users here until at least the Windows version is released (but, hopefully never, unless they respond to some idiotic claim here) Right now only a handful of Mac owners have it (or those insane enough to run under PearPC). Creating cross-platform games is all good and well if you're only dealing with 2D, but when we hit the 3D version of BlitzMax (which I bet we'll have to pay extra for?) it's going to be very interesting indeed - bog-standard Macs have significantly lower powered 3D cards compared to PCs. It's hard enough getting your game tested on the variety of Windows platforms out there, without adding Mac and Linux to the mix (hmm... maybe there's a potential business service here... )

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Van B
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 20:21
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Adr,
I agree with what you posted, my point is that C is an industry standard and documented language - the original of C was probably developed in Pascal, but even nowadays I imagine that VC++ was made in C++ of some description. My point is that Blitzmax is a brand new hybrid language and should'nt be assumed to have the same dynamics as languages like pascal and C - regardless of Marks claims.

Someone could write a C compiler (or any language really) in BASIC, now that would be a very interesting thread.


Van-B


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Rob K
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 21:52
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Quote: ", it'd be nice to at least have public/protected"


Yes it would be, and I don't think it would be too difficult either. I'm guessing that it was probably left out to simplify things.

Quote: "This does surprise me, but with the vast range of Mac OSX versions / processors / etc out there, it has some logic in it. Why it wasn't supplied as a standard DMG is a little unusual."


XCode isn't required to run BMX apps though fortunately.

Quote: "I have no idea what polymorphism is, but I can bet your bottom dollar I've used it before"


As far as C++ is concerned:

Polymorphism = virtual Functions (This is over-simplifying things a little, but the gist is correct)

Quote: " Polymorphism is probably the morphing of polygons. Moving them around."


I hope that was an attempt at humour


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 15th Dec 2004 23:07
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Quote: "XCode isn't required to run BMX apps though fortunately."


Compiled ones, sure - I never meant to imply it did I just meant to install BMX itself, which was quite a surprise. I guess it must hook into several of the libraries there.

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GothOtaku
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 02:07
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Quote: "
I agree with what you posted, my point is that C is an industry standard and documented language - the original of C was probably developed in Pascal, but even nowadays I imagine that VC++ was made in C++ of some description."

Actually, the very first version was in assembly, ever one after that was in C (the original code is online somewhere). I remember an old version of Unix on an ancient HP at my work installed its C compiler by compiling itself in realtime (it would generate a small compiler then compile it again, adding a few things, and repeat. Yes, every language began with assembly: if you write a compiler in C and the compiler that compiled that compiler was in C and the compiler that compiled that compiler of the compiler was in C and you trace it back 20 years then you'd get a version written in assembly. But most of the time we say that C was written in C because that's how all our modern C compilers have been written for the past 30 years.

Quote: "
Creating cross-platform games is all good and well if you're only dealing with 2D, but when we hit the 3D version of BlitzMax (which I bet we'll have to pay extra for?) it's going to be very interesting indeed - bog-standard Macs have significantly lower powered 3D cards compared to PCs"

Really? Because my roommate runs UT2004 at maxed settings on his Apple laptop with no problem.
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Rob K
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 02:52
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Quote: "Really? Because my roommate runs UT2004 at maxed settings on his Apple laptop with no problem."


UT 2004 is a seriously well optimised 3D engine though. It runs fast on my laptop which has a 16MB Riva-TNT generation card.


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DrakeX
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 05:06 Edited at: 16th Dec 2004 05:06
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Quote: "As for my opinions on Blitz, well I must admit they're not entirely language based, it's more to do with the welcome commitee I got from Blitzcoder. Or it could be the attitude I got when I complained about a 911 photograph being used as a game title screen on their showcase. Or maybe all the blitz trolls that come here every so often just to stir things up. I don't have any real opinions about the language itself, just the community"


hence, why i still come here and LLRGT waaaay more than BC or the official forums. with the release of BMX, the official forums no longer even have an off-topic board, but then again, all it was used for before was USA- and Bush-bashing (seriously). BC reminds me a lot of LLRGT, actually - a very small, tight-knit community that isn't real glad to let in new users, simply because they'd change the dynamics of the place. it's still my preferred board, though, as they are much more chilled out there, and will usually help you much more readily.

and believe me, there are DB trolls that go on BC as well.

"polymorphism evades me"

polymorphism is one of those things that you don't need all that often, but is extremely handy (and cool) when you do need it. it's kind of just an extension of the idea of inheritance - that is, you can treat derived classes as if they were their base class. it's very useful for, say, keeping one array of enemies, no matter how many different enemy subclasses you have.

multiple inheritance is of extremely limited use. most people only use MI when they're inheriting from a single base class and some other functionality classes (interfaces). and then you have the problem with order of constructor/destructor calls, and virtual functions, and casting issues.. D does away with MI entirely, and has a separate construct for interfaces, thus making the OO simpler on the whole.

D is a very cool language. i just wish it weren't still in alpha

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 05:48
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Quote: "UT 2004 is a seriously well optimised 3D engine though. It runs fast on my laptop which has a 16MB Riva-TNT generation card"


UT2K4 is processor optimised not 3D Hardware Optimised.
my FX5200 runs it like crap on a mid-range processor, but a nice high end one will run it like a dream.


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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 11:51
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Quote: "
UT2K4 is processor optimised not 3D Hardware Optimised."


Runs well on an 800mhz over here. So even if it's processor optimized it's well processor optimized. Far as I'm concerned it's just a damn good engine .

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 13:03
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Quote: "Runs well on an 800mhz over here. So even if it's processor optimized it's well processor optimized. Far as I'm concerned it's just a damn good engine"


I'd be surprised if you were reaching more than 30-35fps on an 800MHz processor; a mid-range Radeon / GeForce could with TnL push that to around 45fps. However I know you have a TNT2, which in my experience; will generally cause games to lag because it can't keep up.

While that does mean it is playable, online with alot of people on-screen at once I often found FPS on my 800MHz Athlon w/GFFX5200 would start to really show strains, going as low as 5-6fps, which made it unplayable and affected my online ping.

It is a good game, and the engine is well developed. Fact is that it is hardly the quickest engine, achieving the same effects. You have to remember that very little of the Unreal 2.x Engine actually relies on graphics. It has a very good physics system involved, which while not as resource eating as Havok still doesn't come free.

But then this all depends on what you deem an acceptible speed to play on. I quite rightly remembering that my 286 was danm quick with everything I put on it, after trying a 386 which appeared to be laggy in some games, I went back to the 286 and realised it was actually pretty crap. I'd just got so used to it, that it seemed decent.


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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 13:37
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Quote: "I'd be surprised if you were reaching more than 30-35fps on an 800MHz processor; a mid-range Radeon / GeForce could with TnL push that to around 45fps. However I know you have a TNT2, which in my experience; will generally cause games to lag because it can't keep up."


I call 30-35fps 'well'-- 30 is completely playable and the goal aimed by at games being developed by consoles or cutting edge games for PCs, so I consider it a good mark between running well and running poorly. And it is a TNT2 but it's actually a different machine .

Quote: "Fact is that it is hardly the quickest engine, achieving the same effects."


Actually I haven't had anything run nearly as fast as UT2k4 handling as huge a 3d world as Onslaught maps on my TNT2. If you could point out another example I'd give it a shot, but to be honest ut2k4 runs the best in vast maps of all the games I've played. Well enough on my 1.2ghz/TNT2 to actually play it online. Even with everything minimized (640x480) it's still dealing with a gargantuan amount of polygons and it does so like a real trooper.

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Rob K
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Posted: 16th Dec 2004 19:58
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Quote: "UT2K4 is processor optimised not 3D Hardware Optimised.
my FX5200 runs it like crap on a mid-range processor, but a nice high end one will run it like a dream."


And your evidence to support this assertion?


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Ilya
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 04:55
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Quote: "my FX5200 runs it like crap on a mid-range processor, but a nice high end one will run it like a dream."

It doesn't fully prove it, however.

Quote: "I've seen the word programming and I'm not sure what it means. Anybody please explain?"


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 05:14
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Quote: " call 30-35fps 'well'-- 30 is completely playable and the goal aimed by at games being developed by consoles or cutting edge games for PCs, so I consider it a good mark between running well and running poorly."


The Unreal 2.x Engine runs notoriously poorly on the consoles.
While games like Splinter Cell use a version of the engine where the worlds are made deliberately smaller and more enclosed with lower quality models, this is to enhance the speed lost.

Just ask anyone who's had the misfortune of playing Unreal Championship on the X-Box.

And while game generally on consoles can run at 30fps, the problem is that they really *need* to be running at double that in order for smooth gameplay.

Quote: ""my FX5200 runs it like crap on a mid-range processor, but a nice high end one will run it like a dream."
It doesn't fully prove it, however."


Why should I produce proof, most of you visit Tom's Hardware. As many appear to take it as word on 3D/CPU Benchmarks, do your own damn research.


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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 05:18 Edited at: 17th Dec 2004 05:19
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Quote: "do your own damn research."


Yes! He said it!

That's one of Raven's catch phrases. There are variations such as "do your own damn homework" and "do your own bloody research"

Quote: "Just ask anyone who's had the misfortune of playing Unreal Championship on the X-Box."


Ask me.
I love that game. It's seems pretty smooth to me.

I would say that a lot, no wait most, console games run under 60 FPS.

Wait, looks like you said that.

Are you saying that most console games don't look smooth?
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Van B
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 05:38
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Unreal Championship was fine on XBox, maybe a bit lacking with more than 2 players on screen, Unreal2 was a bit of a turkey - gorgeous graphics but the enemy animation was just embarassing. Unreal2 was definately a let down after Halo.


Van-B


It's c**p being the only coder in the village.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 05:41
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Some people thought is was a letdown before Halo 2, although I liked it... The ending was quite sad too...

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 05:44
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I got incredibly annoyed with one of the members of my crew on my ship.

The bloke.

What a poo he was.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 05:55
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The alcoholic one (the weapons 'expert' ?)

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
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Chris K
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 06:21
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Yep him.

The one with shiny trousers.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 06:25
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I didn't think he was annoying - just had some 'problems' that needed sorting...

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
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Rob K
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 06:39 Edited at: 17th Dec 2004 06:44
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Quote: "Why should I produce proof, most of you visit Tom's Hardware. As many appear to take it as word on 3D/CPU Benchmarks, do your own damn research."


Raven, sadly it is fact of life that if you want people to believe you, you are going to have to give them a reason. If you ever need to persuade someone in business to do something, you will need to justify your proposition. Same goes with research at a uni:

Can you really imagine this happening?:

CompSci. PhD. Student: My algorithm is faster than anything that currently exists...

Professors: Why?

CompSci. PhD. Student: You want me to provide proof? Most of you use computers and appear to know how they work. Do your own damn research!

This applies even in the un-scholarly world of internet forums.


BlueGUI:Windows UI Plugin - All the power of the windows interface in your DBPro games.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 07:25
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Quote: "Raven, sadly it is fact of life that if you want people to believe you, you are going to have to give them a reason. If you ever need to persuade someone in business to do something, you will need to justify your proposition. Same goes with research at a uni:

Can you really imagine this happening?:

CompSci. PhD. Student: My algorithm is faster than anything that currently exists...

Professors: Why?

CompSci. PhD. Student: You want me to provide proof? Most of you use computers and appear to know how they work. Do your own damn research!

This applies even in the un-scholarly world of internet forums."


Not really. If I choose to show proof of what I have stated that is my choice... Perhaps because I don't care.
If your that bothered about my statment you'll do the research, or believe it. If not then why kick up any fuss about it?

I feel no reason to show why I have come to this conclusion, you know what you have to look for and where to look.

Believe it or not, PhD students actually work to those very rules.
While you would show your personal explaination of how you have come to a given conclusion as well as a demonstration of the work you have done. Any and all research is something provided as references, and the marker must check the same resources to see if he/she comes to the same conclusion as you.

Often is the case with PhD studies, that the important thing isn't if your right or wrong. Just that you understand what you were doing and have come up with a viable theory that is set to be disproven, by those who follow your research trail or find solutions of thier own.

Really I think prior to trying to do an analogy you should've thought it through a bit more. If you do not want to accept what I have said, you can either choose to ignore it or research it.

As for those who've played UC / U2 on the X-Box, you didn't notice any horrible slowdowns? Because it was horrible, to the point of unplayable online.

Also on the note of the FPS, actually no.. Console games *must* reach atleast 50/60fps in order for the game to play smoothly, because the Television *expects* 30 x2 Scanline Frames Per Second.
There is no way to tell your TV, "well actually i want to run at 28fps instead" because it will still read 30 x2 FPS.

The reason it is x2 is because TVs work on Scanlines, Odd -> Even.
Computers cannot render only every other line, thus in order to = the same framerate as the television it *must* export one for each scanline pass (ie 2 Frames for each TV Frame). PAL = 25fps, NTSC = 30fps... this means that 2xPAL/NTSC = 50/60fps.

Have you ever played a game with skipped frames? You get the 'jerky' effect. Not only horrible to see, but really buggers up gameplay too, on a PC when this happens you'd down the Resolution or something in order to bring the framerate up. DirectX was notorious for it in 8.0/8.1 whenever the fps went under 30.


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DrakeX
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Posted: 17th Dec 2004 09:42
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"Not really. If I choose to show proof of what I have stated that is my choice... Perhaps because I don't care."

either you "don't care," or you're pulling stuff out of where the sun don't shine. and considering your track record, you haven't really given us any reason to believe the former.

"when it's done" means "we have no idea, we forgot to do that; we were hoping you would all forget we promised <insert exotic promise here>"
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Dr Who
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 19:22
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I think BlitzMax will prove it's worth in time though.

Best Regards,

DoctorWho...
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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 19:29
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Mark released a Windows beta, so I'm busy playing around with it. The ability to import C code is pretty handy (someone has already written a LUA scripting library for 'Max).

Sadly it'll be a few months before the 3D module gets released though.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 19:32 Edited at: 18th Dec 2004 19:32
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And I be you have to pay extra for it too...

Hopefully, this will spur Lee & Mike to better things with P6 (especially with testing). Need to have lots & lots of testing.

Beware the cat... The alien... The heretic...
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Rob K
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Posted: 18th Dec 2004 21:53
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Quote: " And I be you have to pay extra for it too..."


Almost certainly. Still, given that BMX is around £50 (once you include VAT), I wouldn't mind another £20 or so. If they decide to charge for the GUI module as well then it might start to add up a little.


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Ian T
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 00:11
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Hmm... so it's more expensive than DarkBASIC Pro for equivilant functionality, at least. Rob, d'you think you could compare 2d speeds ?

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 00:43 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 00:49
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No test is perfect, but with a fairly simple 2D test (400 rotating sprites of a 256x256 image scaled to 0.1 of the normal size), Max gets 62-66FPS on my laptop, DBPro gets about 40FPS. (My laptop is a 1.7Ghz Centrino with an ATI Mobility Radeon 16MB graphics card)

A more relevant test would be DGSDK against Max, as the compilers are arguably a better match for each other.

This was using only the standard timer function though, for a proper test I would need to use a hi-res timer.


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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 01:06
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What DBPro code did you use ? If you can post it, I'll convert it.

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 01:11
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 01:12
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Any chance of supplying the PNG file too ?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 01:31 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 01:34
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With DarkSDK the fps from DB is ~169, and according to the high frequency it seems to vary between around 200.

Either way, its much faster than BlitzMax...

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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 01:52
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Erm, how can you draw that conclusion without even testing the Bmx demo on the same hardware ?

Kevin Picone
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
Play Nice! Play Basic - Next Generation Basic (Release V1.05 Out Now)
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 02:34
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If Rob can supply the executable, I can hopefully confirm it...

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Rob K
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Posted: 19th Dec 2004 07:12 Edited at: 19th Dec 2004 07:14
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What are your system specs TCA? As I pointed out before, that demo was running on a 16MB Mobility Radeon. I would also need the hi-timer code in order to ensure realistic results. The Windows GetTickCount function is inaccurate below 10ms.


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