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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Official Announcement-Licensing Fee for Commercial Use

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 00:19
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Richard,

I saw in the thread titled "Official Release Date + Pricing" the base price for FPS Creator will be roughly $56. However, it made no mention of the price for commercial use. I hope it is made public before the EA product goes on sale so there will be no surprises. If that pricing is already available, could you post a link? If it is not available, when will it be available?

Thanks,

Rich
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Logan 5
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 02:19 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 02:22
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Rich,

The simple answer to your question is that upgrading from EA to V1 will likely be free, but Richard has been over all this with us many times. The answer to your question is a little long, so would you mind searching the forum before posting?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 02:39
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I think you'll find that you'll have to pay the difference between the two.

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granada
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 02:49
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I think he means a licence to be able to publish your games,sell them !!

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Logan 5
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 03:34
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Currently, all we have to pay between the two is shipping and packaging. Per Richard:

Quote: "Anyone who purchases the EA version will automatically qualify for the full retail version when it is completed. There will be a shipping and packaging charge to pay, this will be announced when the weight of the retail version is known."


And I realized he meant commercial fees, but since this isn't known yet, I didn't want to get into it. That's why I directed him to the search function.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:19
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Logan 5,

First, I have searched the forum for this information. I did not find it. Second, I wrote:
Quote: "If that pricing is already available, could you post a link?"
That was the prompt which essentially stated, if I missed it, please let me know where I can find it. Since no one has posted a link, I assume no one knows the answer; hence, this question still remains.

When I started this thread, I wrote the following:
Quote: "I saw in the thread titled "Official Release Date + Pricing" the base price for FPS Creator will be roughly $56. "
Hence, referring me back to that thread and mentioning $56 is not helpful.

I thought the title of the thread "Official Announcement-Licensing Fee for Commercial Use" made it very clear. So, let me clarify it for the others. The $56 is merely the "base" license. From what I have read, you'll be free to give away your games as you see fit. However, for those, like myself, who wish to sell their games, they must pay an additional "commercial license fee." Richard mentioned this was "TBD" a while back. To the best of my knowledge, he never posted the actual "commercial license fee."

In the end, I either need a link to the thread in which the exact cost of the "commercial license fee" is stated or someone from TGC to make an official statement.

Rich
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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:26
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logan 5,

You wrote:
Quote: "And I realized he meant commercial fees, but since this isn't known yet, I didn't want to get into it. That's why I directed him to the search function. "


First, why do you think I'm asking the question? Second, why would you direct anyone to the search function when you yourself write "this isn't known yet?" Third, why would you respond when you have no clue?

Rich
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Zone Chicken
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:28 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 04:29
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I don't belive they can give the Commercial fee as of yet, i think it still undecided.

This may have to do with the add on pack, as i read somewhere about them using a 3rd party physics engine, they may have to get that deal squared away if that is the case, before they could even think of making a anouncement on a commercial fee if they go that route, however this is just speculation as they have made no official announcment.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:36 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 04:59
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Zone Chicken,

I'm aware it has probably not been made public. That is why I'm asking. I don't want to spend hundreds of hours learning FPS Creator and building my game only to find out the "commercial license fee" is much higher than I expected.

In the end, I do not think it is asking too much to know exactly what all the fees are before buying anything including the EA version of FPS Creator. Since they have been working on this product for many months, they have had more than enough time to iron out a fee structure.

Rich
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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:39 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 04:58
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Zone Chicken
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:48 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 04:50
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Quote: "I wish this forum had the ability to edit messages.
"

It does right under your alvatar at the bottom bar of your post.

Quote: "In the end, I do not think it is asking too much to know exactly what all the fees are before buying anything including the EA version of FPS Creator."


The problem is that fps creator is a wip, if there using anything not created by them they will have to set up contract's and such before they could make a selling price. They are spending all there time working on fpsc now, i don't think they have even started on the physcis or other add on packs, the price setting would have to accommodate these packs before they could release one if these packs use any 3rd party support. If they write there own engine im sure it will be much cheaper, if they use a 3rd party it could be in the thousand's. Look at 3d gamecreator, its fee is 500 dollars for commercial game's, your pretty much
guaranteed fpsc will be more as it is more advanced.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:51 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 04:56
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Zone Chicken,

Thanks. I saw that right after I posted that. It is not in the best place.

Back to the pricing, if it is over $500, it will be a tough sell.

Rich
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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 04:58
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I don't think it will be that high, very few people here could afford that. I suspect that the license will probably not be that expensive, but there may be royalties involved.

I have doubts about how many commercial games will be made with FPSC though.


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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 05:08 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 05:26
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Rob K,

Royalties or licensing fees may or may not work depending upon their structure. I plan to give away a few levels as a free "demo." Then, I'll sell the next eight or ten levels.

As crazy as it sounds, when I talked to other 3D game engine producers, they wanted money for each copy which goes out the door including demos. So, you'd have to pay the full "licensing fee" even if someone downloads the demo game and deletes it. That is way too expensive. What may work is a real "royalty" based on actual gross sales which allows demos to be freely distributed.

You wrote:
Quote: "I have doubts about how many commercial games will be made with FPSC though."
So, you do not think the FPS Creator will even be able to create low end games ($14.99-$24.99 (USD)) one could sell?

Rich
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Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 07:10
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I don't think ANY commersial games will
be made with FPSC.
(maby thats just me)
Not that i think FPSC will make bad games
it's just that when FPSC is released and we have
all made our dream game people will be sitting
at home playing games in the UNREAL3 engine and
we are still discussing if this one can
reach up to HalfLife1.
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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 07:20 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 07:22
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Noldor,

That is where I disagree with many people. An immersive and unique environment with solid game-play built with Quake II would definitely sell a couple thousand or more copies in the $14.99-$24.99 (USD) range. I think too many people put way too much emphasis on the graphical "fluff" instead of the creativity of the game designers. That is why there is so much garbage out there on the shelves.

In the end, if one thinks of "commercial" as competing with the big boys such as id, you'll need a big trust fund or hit the Lotto. Outside that, I still think one can compete in the "lower end" market and make a solid living. Whether or not FPS Creator can actually meet this goal (Quake II quality) is another issue.

Rich
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Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 07:36
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Ok i agree with you to some degree. (not fullhearted)
Quote: " I think too many people put way too much emphasis on the graphical "fluff" instead of the creativity of the game designers. That is why there is so much garbage out there on the shelves.
"

Mostly i agree with that..
But i still don't think anyone will make a commersial game with
FPSC and i realy don't think that anyone will make a living of
Their FPSC game..
Altouh make sure to mail me if you
make a living of your FPSC game. (then i will buy a copy to)
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:04
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My fear is that everything produced will become very samely, and eventually no real effort will be made to persuade the player that its anything special - much like SEUCK became.

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MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:04
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Can I sell my game to my friends for five bucks without getting in trouble with TGC? I have told my friends about FPSC and a game I want to make. Some of my friends said they would buy it from me. They offered to buy it suprisingly! So I wanted to sell it for a low price of $5. I don't want to pay $100 or more to sell my game for five bucks. My question pretty much is will I get sued?

Thanks TGC

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:12
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Noldor,

I don't expect anyone to make a living off a single game. I think that would be highly unlikely. What I do think is possible is making a living off several games. So, if one is able to make four or five games a year with a product like FPS Creator which sell a couple thousand total copies yearly roughly in the $19.99-$24.99 USD, I think many would consider that a livable amount. It really depends on how much you really think you need.

Rich
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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:16
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MaddA ChieF,

You wrote:
Quote: "Can I sell my game to my friends for five bucks without getting in trouble with TGC? I have told my friends about FPSC and a game I want to make. Some of my friends said they would buy it from me. They offered to buy it suprisingly! So I wanted to sell it for a low price of $5. I don't want to pay $100 or more to sell my game for five bucks. My question pretty much is will I get sued?

Thanks TGC
"


From what I have read, in the strictest sense, this would be considered a violation of the license agreement. Selling it for one cent or a hundred dollars would still require a "commercial license." If this is not correct, I'd appreciate an official clarification by TGC staff.

Rich
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Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:19 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 08:20
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Well i wish you best of luck on your pursuit
of wealth in the game development industry.
But i can not even imagine it happening.
Be sure to mail me when it does.
(No offence intended)
I am only intending to use FPSC for Hobby
purposes only.
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MaddA ChieF
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:29
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I'll just give it away.

Quote: "I am only intending to use FPSC for Hobby
purposes only. "


wise Nolder... I'm a goin' with dat.

PS no offence taken.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 08:31 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 08:32
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Noldor,

I think we are talking about different things. To me, "making a living" and "wealth" are very different. Making a living is $55,000 to $60,000 USD a year; you can live relatively comfortably in many areas on this. Wealth is having a net worth of several million dollars. It is not having a huge house, expensive cars, tons of debt and a negative net worth.

Rich
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Noldor
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 09:41 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 09:45
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But my point is that i dont even think
that you will be making that kind of
money.
sorry but thats what i think.

Edit : ok wealth was a little to far
i take that back
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Logan 5
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 11:14 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 11:39
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Rich,

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I posted the empirical evidence that I had, which was the $56. The other part of your question -- about commercial licensing -- has been discussed at some length, but with no answer yet from TGC. So, I didn't want this thread to cover ground we'd already covered. Which, umm, I guess it ended up doing anyway.

Also, Rich, here are two threads I found in this forum mentioning commercial licensing. There are others, as I recall, but I only did a quick search:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=41999&b=21

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=41999&b=21

Neither of the threads give us a specific answer, which is my point. TGC hasn't determined a price yet. I'm sure Richard will post a commercial license price when one is determined. One thing you can say about TGC, they are quite forthcoming with regard to product information.

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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 17:59 Edited at: 6th Feb 2005 18:35
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Quote: " So, you do not think the FPS Creator will even be able to create low end games ($14.99-$24.99 (USD)) one could sell? "


Edit - to clarify:

FPSCreator saves time on the programming and level design aspects. However for a game to be successful it will need a great deal of custom media and good use of FPI scripting. Yes, you can create shareware games, but don't expect to do so with just a few days work.


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David T
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Posted: 6th Feb 2005 23:10
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Quote: "Quote: "I have doubts about how many commercial games will be made with FPSC though."
So, you do not think the FPS Creator will even be able to create low end games ($14.99-$24.99 (USD)) one could sell? "



I basically echo what Rob said. The only games that get sold have to be original and have some sort of twist. Nobody's going to want to buy generic shoot-the-Nazi-I've-obviously-spent-at-least-10-miuntes-making-this game.

FPSC games are fine for hobbyist purposes, but to get the refined quality commercial games have you really need to code from scratch.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 02:01 Edited at: 7th Feb 2005 02:01
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Noldor,

You wrote:
Quote: "But my point is that i dont even think
that you will be making that kind of
money.
sorry but thats what i think.

Edit : ok wealth was a little to far
i take that back "


Just to clarify, I never once wrote I would make any amount. I merely wrote I think the possibility exists to make a livable amount creating four or five unique games a year.

As a matter of fact, one of the guys on another game creation tool forum probably makes well into six figures with his games. You may have even seen one of his games which sold over 75,000 units, USA Bass, at WalMart.

Rich
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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 02:11 Edited at: 7th Feb 2005 02:15
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Logan 5,

You wrote:
Quote: "Rich,

Sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I posted the empirical evidence that I had, which was the $56. The other part of your question -- about commercial licensing -- has been discussed at some length, but with no answer yet from TGC. So, I didn't want this thread to cover ground we'd already covered. Which, umm, I guess it ended up doing anyway.

Also, Rich, here are two threads I found in this forum mentioning commercial licensing. There are others, as I recall, but I only did a quick search:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=41999&b=21

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=41999&b=21

Neither of the threads give us a specific answer, which is my point. TGC hasn't determined a price yet. I'm sure Richard will post a commercial license price when one is determined. One thing you can say about TGC, they are quite forthcoming with regard to product information. "


This was never resolved. In your first link, Rich D. wrote:
Quote: "For those of you who want to sell your creations we will offer you a number of routes to market:

* Full commercial license, unlimited titles, Price TBC
* Full commercial license, single title, Price TBC
* Web/Shareware license, single title, Price TBC
* Re-sell via TGC website. Royatly split 60% (Author) / 40% (TGC)"


The second link points to the same thread. So, neither of these addressed my question. "TBC" is not a price.

Actually, I was not looking for anyone to cover anything at all. I was not seeking "community" input. The simple point of this thread was specifically to ask Rich D. or another member of TGC staff to officially state exactly what the "commercial license" fee will be.

As for them being "quite forthcoming with regard to product information," I disagree. Rich's original post, to which you posted a link was posted 1st Nov 2004 11:19; so, I think they have had plenty of time to set a pricing structure.

Rich
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Coldnews
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rich, there is an edit tool that you can use on your posts. Its on the left hand side of ur post, on the bottom. Please use it.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 02:17 Edited at: 7th Feb 2005 02:20
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Coldnews,

You wrote:
Quote: "rich, there is an edit tool that you can use on your posts. Its on the left hand side of ur post, on the bottom. Please use it."


What the heck are you referring to here? Edit exactly what?

Rich
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 02:20
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Re: edit - he probably meant posting twice in a row, but don't fret it, I do it quite often and I built the damn forums

To answer your question - there isn't a set price for a commercial license yet, it's something we'll iron out between EA and V1. If this is a major issue (and I guess for a handful of people it may be) then our advice is simply don't buy a thing until we've announced it.

Cheers,

Rich

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 02:25 Edited at: 7th Feb 2005 02:44
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Richard,

I appreciate your reply.

You wrote:
Quote: "Re: edit - he probably meant posting twice in a row, but don't fret it, I do it quite often and I built the damn forums
"


Not posting back to back messages is simply a matter of taste. If one actually reads the posts, he or she will see I'm responding to two different people. Hence, I posted two different messages. I do not like to reply to two people in one message. I have never ever had a problem with doing this on the other dozen or so boards I frequent. I'm not too surprised to learn we have board Nazis here.

Quote: "To answer your question - there isn't a set price for a commercial license yet, it's something we'll iron out between EA and V1. If this is a major issue (and I guess for a handful of people it may be) then our advice is simply don't buy a thing until we've announced it."


I understand that is a decision TGC has made. However, I am a bit disappointed that you guys have not found time over roughly the past 90 days over lunch or a pint at the pub to finalize a pricing structure. I'll look forward to the announcement.

Thanks,

Rich
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 02:26
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Like I said, don't fret it.

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Rob K
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 03:05
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Quote: "
I understand that is a decision TGC has made. However, I am a bit disappointed that you guys have not found time over roughly the past 90 days over lunch or a pint at the pub to finalize a pricing structure. I'll look forward to the announcement."


You don't understand Rich, all of the TGC staff are from up North. The chances of them making a decision in the presence of alcohol are decidedly minimal

The other thing to bear in mind is that TGC have in the past consulted users about pricing, and have actually taken their views into account. Once the EA has been released, users will better be able to agree whether or not the shareware prices are reasonable. Plus with the addition of physics and multiplayer, you stand a better chance of being able to create a game that will sell.


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 03:11
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Quote: "However, I am a bit disappointed that you guys have not found time over roughly the past 90 days over lunch or a pint at the pub to finalize a pricing structure. I'll look forward to the announcement."


It's not a case of simply plucking a figure out of the (pub-infested) air and saying "here it is". The price of the product itself was based on a large user survey. The license will be priced in the same way. Right now seeing as we're in crunch mode for EA this isn't a priority. In a few weeks, it will be.

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Coldnews
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 05:49
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I agree with Richard on how nothing should be done until after the EA is out. Its not even worth thinking about. I'm sure the very vocal members of this forum will speak out and make their views clear.

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Rich Brockway
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 05:57 Edited at: 7th Feb 2005 06:03
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Richard,

I wrote:
Quote: "I understand that is a decision TGC has made. However, I am a bit disappointed that you guys have not found time over roughly the past 90 days over lunch or a pint at the pub to finalize a pricing structure. I'll look forward to the announcement."


You wrote:
Quote: "It's not a case of simply plucking a figure out of the (pub-infested) air and saying "here it is". The price of the product itself was based on a large user survey. The license will be priced in the same way. Right now seeing as we're in crunch mode for EA this isn't a priority. In a few weeks, it will be."


I guess that was taken the wrong way. I'll clarify. This product has been in development for many months. On 1st Nov 2004 11:19, you made an initial announcement on the "base" price of roughly $49.99 (USD). Given all of these facts, one would assume the decision makers at TGC would have tossed around rough licensing fees for the last 3 months at least. Hence, I was not expecting you guys to just meet at the pub for five minutes to decide the pricing structure. I was writing I'm surprised you haven't found time one way or another to finalize the pricing structure even if it means doing it on "off" hours.

Rich
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granada
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 06:17 Edited at: 7th Feb 2005 06:17
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@ Rich Brockway

Your posts remind me of someone,just cant put my fingure on it
(nothing bad )
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Rob K
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 06:38
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Quote: "I was writing I'm surprised you haven't found time one way or another to finalize the pricing structure even if it means doing it on "off" hours."


Re-read Richard Davey's post. He clearly said that the licensing price would be based, in part, on a user survey after the EA release. TGC therefore cannot finalise the pricing until *after* the EA release.


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uman
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 06:48
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I would agree with Rich Brockway in as much as I think that anyone investing in a product that has a stage payment situation prevailing which could be said to be a description of FPSC - should before deciding to purchase that product be in a position to ascertain the final cost of their intended investment.

However it is clear that in this instance that is not known. Therefore you have a decision either to buy or not - down to the individual - no one forces anyone to make the initial investment or any subsequent one

It would be best if one knew all the facts but thats not the case. Indeed even if one knew the overall cost to future versions and license fees - then at this stage you would not even know what you would be getting for your money as no one knows what future versions will include.

Obviously long term decisions re FPSC cannot be assesed at the moment, so you makes your choice and pays your money, or not as you wish.

I wish
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David T
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 06:51
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Quote: "I would agree with Rich Brockway in as much as I think that anyone investing in a product that has a stage payment situation prevailing which could be said to be a description of FPSC - should before deciding to purchase that product be in a position to ascertain the final cost of their intended investment."


Whoah! Management-speak

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SkyCubes
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 10:58
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Quote: "TGC therefore cannot finalise the pricing until *after* the EA release."


So, should one assume then that a game made with the EA version may be sold commercially without a percentage of royalty owed to TGC?

"Beware of people who try and belittle your ambitions. Small people do that. The really great people are the ones who make you feel that you too can become great" --Mark Twain
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 12:25
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Quote: "So, should one assume then that a game made with the EA version may be sold commercially without a percentage of royalty owed to TGC?"


One should assume the only single fact we've officially (repeatedly) given regarding this - you cannot sell your games until we release a license that lets you. We won't do that until after EA is out and the users have been surveyed. If that's enough to put some off buying it, then simply don't buy it until you have all the facts.

Quote: "Given all of these facts, one would assume the decision makers at TGC would have tossed around rough licensing fees for the last 3 months at least."


Rough, sure. And various methods/concepts have already been talked about here (from a royalty license to a full-out fee ala T3DGM). But nothing will be announced until EA feedback is in, that is the point of an EA release after-all.

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Coldnews
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 17:46
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Quote: "that is the point of an EA release after-all.
"

fair point!

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SkyCubes
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Posted: 7th Feb 2005 22:54
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Quote: "One should assume the only single fact we've officially (repeatedly) given regarding this"


Jesus, calm down. I was only asking a question--seemed like a reasonable and relevent question based on the previous 44 posts in this thread on the topic.

Besides, it's not like I (personally) am going to be "selling" anything I create with FPSC. Who would want to pay money for the crap I put together? LOL!

Anyway, my bad I guess. I shouldn't have even chimed in on this one.

"Beware of people who try and belittle your ambitions. Small people do that. The really great people are the ones who make you feel that you too can become great" --Mark Twain
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 8th Feb 2005 01:05
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Quote: "Jesus, calm down."


That wasn't even slightly "un-calm". It's interesting to see how you perceive things though

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SkyCubes
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Posted: 8th Feb 2005 01:43
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Quote: "One should assume the only single fact we've officially (repeatedly) given regarding this - you cannot sell your games until we release a license that lets you."


Well, I thought the "tone" was pretty clear. If I "percieved" it the wrong way, then I apologize.

I guess this is another example of how a few either assume or expect that the rest of us have read every single tread ever posted in the forum or want to for that matter.

"Beware of people who try and belittle your ambitions. Small people do that. The really great people are the ones who make you feel that you too can become great" --Mark Twain
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SoulMan
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Posted: 8th Feb 2005 02:06
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+=
SoulMan

This is as backwards as is This
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