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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / DBPRO & 8mb(dont laugh) video card problems?

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dreamweaver
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 11:56
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Hi,

I believe Kris was having the same problem using this card, I can't seem to reply to his thread so have started a new topic.

I downloaded the trial version only to find that the face/head demo would not run, it gave me the watermark screen with some pops from the speakers, it also locked out all keys so had to reboot. The spinning cube demo ran ok, as did other simple progs.

I can no longer use the trial version, as after one day it says it has expired, short and sweet eh!

I have never had a problem with DB1.

My onboard crap card is an ati rage pro turbo + dxv8.1 128mb ram, 10gb hd, & an amd 475mhz proc.

All the DBPRO demos that were released before DBPRO came out ran fine, which I would have thought meant my card could just about handle it.

If this is the problem I will have a look on Ebay for an PCI Geforce card as I have no AGP slot.

dreamweaver sleeps
http://www.pumpkinsoftware.co.uk the makers of Fruit 'n' Loot & Psycho Pumpkins.

Proc AMD 475 mhZ, 128mb ram, crap onboard ATI 8mb video chip, DX8.1, win 98se, DB v1.13.
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Nemesis
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 15:42
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Hate to put it this way, but if you want to be able to do much with DBPro you'll need a higher end machine. If you don't even have AGP, that would place it in the early PII era, and a machine of that generation just wouldn't be able to keep up. I suggest you start saving for an upgrade of your MB/CPU/RAM/Graphcs card all in one hit. I recommend an Athlon 1800+, with at least 256MB DDR, a Gigabye MB that supports DDR, and a Gforce 4 (they're cheaper than you might think). That'd set me back about $500AU, which is about $230US. Buy in parts, it's cheaper, and nine times out if 10 more powerful than anything you'll get in a package deal.

I know everything! At least I don't know anything I don't know.
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Guillermo
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 17:06
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I agree. You should get the most that you can afford. I do have a 1.3 Pentium Celeron, a 1.1 Athlon, and a 1.3 Athlon computer. The celeron works fine and it is cheaper. Do spend as much as you can on RAM. There is a marked difference in performance between 128 and 256, and between 256 and 512. RAM goes up and down in price. Just visit your dealers frequently, until it goes down. I have bought 256 RAM for about $30.00, and for about $90.00. I even saw 256 RAM for $15.00, with a $25.00 manufacturers rebate (that is a total of $10.00 for the buyer in the end). Of course, this was just after I had bought the same 256 RAM for $90.00, and had installed it already.

From what you said you have, I don't think your computer would take 256 RAM per slot. My old 450 Mhz Pentium II IBM doesn't. Yet, it does handle DBPro (slowly). I think that it is because it has a 16 Meg Voodoo card.

I bough the card when the IBM was an impressive computer. But I would not spend money upgrading it now. It is good to test programs. If they work in that IBM, they probably will work any where else.

Good luck,


Guillermo

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Fireburst
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 17:41
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You will be able to get a PCI Geforce2MX fairly cheaply. If I was to to alter anything else I would perhaps add a bit of memory too.

Your system may be a little long in the tooth but with my suggestions it will happily run DBpro (with the exception of the advanced shaders)

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
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dreamweaver
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 18:12
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Thanks for all the replies, it's what I expected to hear really. In an ideal world I would upgrade to another complete system, though other commitments (family, mortgage etc) won't allow at the moment. I would like to upgrade just enough to allow DBPRO to work. Looks like more memory and a PCI card as thses are fairly cheap items and make big difference.

I'm still not sure why it ran the demos ok.

Back to DB1 for the moment.

dreamweaver sleeps

http://www.pumpkinsoftware.co.uk the makers of Fruit 'n' Loot & Psycho Pumpkins.

Proc AMD 475 mhZ, 128mb ram, crap onboard ATI 8mb video chip, DX8.1, win 98se, DB v1.13.
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dreamweaver
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 20:06
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Hi,

Can anyone let me know if they have similar specs as me with DBPRO running, albeit sluggishly.

dreamweaver sleeps

http://www.pumpkinsoftware.co.uk the makers of Fruit 'n' Loot & Psycho Pumpkins.

Proc AMD 475 mhZ, 128mb ram, crap onboard ATI 8mb video chip, DX8.1, win 98se, DB v1.13.
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Fireburst
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Posted: 26th Sep 2002 23:55
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I tested DBpro beta3 on a PII 300 with 128mb and a Geforce2MX 32mb and it ran fine (but without dx8.1 shaders)

In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. But in practice, there is.
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haggisman
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 00:21
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maybe you should wait until the complete patch 2 is used with the DBpro demo before giving up, or spending money upgrading.

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram
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Khumba
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 03:52
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I have the same problem, but I ordered a GeForce 2 and it should be here soon =)
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Nemesis
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:01
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Just so you all know, the difference in performance between a Geforce 2MX and a Geforce 4 is incredible. I'm talking over 100 FPS faster and a fair number of hardware supported features extra, such as realtime lighting and true reflections.

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JimB
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:39
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On the subject of video cards I have a Geforce2 MX200 and
in the manual it says it delivers "Advanced pixel shading"
yet some of the demos won't work,anyone got any ideas?

JimB

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Nemesis
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:44
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Oh, for anyone who has an nvidia card, download the latest detonator drivers. I just installed version 30 point something on one of my friends machine, and it gave him an instant 100FPS boost (no kidding). The drivers play a big role in the performance of the card. If you're just using the standard ones they'll be holding back your card in a major way.

I know everything! At least I don't know anything I don't know.
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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:46
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My specs are: PIII - 866MHz, 120MB SD RAM. On-baord SiS 630 - 8mb shared video memory! Very crap indeed. DX 8.1b,18.6GB HD running at 5400rpm. The DB Pro demo ran ok... But the examples on the site, didn't work. Weird.

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

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Nemesis
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:49
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Well I believe that there are problems with DBpro detecting features suppoted by your graphics card. Sometimes it says they are supported and sometimes it says they aren't. Your screen mode often changes this, but when I installed the patch and upgraded my vid drivers it changed it again. DBpro automatically performs a check to see if your card supports hardware faetures such as pixel and vertex shaders before trying to use them, and for some reason it thinks your card can't. Try running in different modes such as windowed fullscreen and see if it works.

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Nemesis
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:51
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Onboard vid cards are the root of all evil. There is nothing that is worse in the PC area in terms of hardware than an onboard video card. Anyone here thinking of bying a new computer, make sure it does not have onboard video. Half the time it's bloody difficult to disable them too. Onboard sound cards are fine, but onboad video cards are always shit.

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JimB
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 09:57
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Windowed /Fullscreen?

JimB

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 10:12
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pick up a GeForce 2 Mx400 for £64, trust me the few extra pounds over the GeForce Mx200 is REALLY worth it as they run on different chips entirely and the Mx200 is well slower than a GeForce256 (crazy eh?)
And yes this is in £ cause regardless where you live in the world I'd purchase from the UK, as they have the cheapest computer components (even after money translation)
i mean GeForce4 Ti 660 64Mb £150 really can't be beat.

However on this note, even though it's been noted that DBpro doesn't work with it - I got the head demo to run at a respectable 35fps on my P2 266Mhz - 128Mb Ram - SiS 632G 8Mb - Dx 8.1b not real problems apart from a flicker, but that happens on most Dx 8.1 based applications and games.
Probably just a current incompatiablity.

On the Shader note... DirectX 8.1 is able to render using Reference Drivers Shaders (Texel & Pixel), as well as many other effects that DBpro has built in - it is EXTREMELY costly to entire system however for cards that cannot handle this in any way hardware wise. I'll write some test demos for allowing systems to callibrate and test effects a little later once i've finished something for Flyer_Commander_Dude, and show you some possible effects that could be setup in DLLs for DBpro as later developments.
GeForce2 cards althought not specifically written for Shaders are capable of using them, not in the same capacity or level as GeForce 3&4 however still at a useable level.

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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JimB
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 10:19
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I also have a Geforce 256 ddr 64mg but I dont want install
this if it will make no difference to the pixel shading issue(no manual).

JimB

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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 10:36
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I can't disable my onboard video card. So what could I do? Can insert a PCI GF2 and still use it? I don't have a AGP slot GOD DAMN IT!! lol

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

http://www.rpgcyco.com - My Website & Forums
Specs: PIII - 866MHz, 128MB SDRAM, 8MB SiS 630, 17inch monitor, 18.6GB HDD 5400rpm, Win ME, DX8.1b, 56k Modem
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th Sep 2002 14:16
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Rpg, oftenly onboard cards are disabled by a jumper on the board (for some odd reason oftnely jp5 - hehee)
However also within the BIOS they happen to have an enable disable switch.
If you put in the new card then it is likely that your system will use the one you attach the montior too (i've had fun in the past confusing the system and plugging in 2montiors)

Even if the BIOS and DOS start up don't work, WinMe certainly will want to know which one is your primary - as DirectX hates being confused and will throw a tantrum

Lets just hope you've kept the manual otherwise i cna see after a week you'll get so annoyed you'll throw the motherboard out the window and order an AGP one
However must say there have been some good offers with AMD AthlonXP processors, AMD 768 Boards (w/sound & network) and DDR Ram recently. Actually makes me seriously wanna make a 5th system

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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Milamber
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Posted: 28th Sep 2002 05:19
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A lot of recent onboard video cards, particularly SIS ones, use unified memory architecture, using some of your system memory for video memory. These cards cannot be disabled as far as I can tell, because they are too integrated. You are supposed to be able to insert a second graphics card in a PCI or AGP slot and have them both cooperating but I've never succeeded with the one motherboard I've had that's like that. Try it and see what happens.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th Sep 2002 05:30
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They've been using unified memory for a good 3 years, and you can turn them off on a jumper or in the Bios.
You can also do it with a BIOS rewrite, not recommended but with FlashBios setups you can change alot on your motherboard.
Those boards that have onboard graphics are normally the cheapest people can buy, and for a few extra £$€ you can get one without. Most gamers don't touch motherboards that have onboard things, espeically the third party chips like Via/Apollo/SiS - if you have an Intel system, you use and intel chipset, AMD you use AMD or nVidia chipset.
The others can cause irrational things to happen... and combining memory (even on boards that are designed for it) is a very BAD idea!!


"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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cYanide
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Posted: 28th Sep 2002 08:20
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actually if in not mistaken didnt the dbs guys advertise on this very site that a 8meg card will run it all at perfect speeds? now i think there was some lies going on specially when one of them posts and tells you thats the problem.

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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 28th Sep 2002 08:54
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Thanks for the info guys! Now I am un confused! ;D

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

http://www.rpgcyco.com - My Website & Forums
Specs: PIII - 866MHz, 128MB SDRAM, 8MB SiS 630, 17inch monitor, 18.6GB HDD 5400rpm, Win ME, DX8.1b, 56k Modem
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JimB
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Posted: 28th Sep 2002 17:12
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So what (budget)Graphic card is required to be able to use all
DBpro's features?

JimB

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lagmaster
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Posted: 28th Sep 2002 21:59
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16mb graphic cards are only about £20-30 and 32mb for about £40-60

please dont try and use 8mb on dbpro, you'll think it will run like db. dont live on old stuff, it's worth updating something every couple of years. otherwise you'll have to end up paying for a new system.

lagmasteruk - http://www.lagmaster.net/ r.nash@ntlworld.com
specs: 1.2ghz athlon, 384mb ram, geforce 2 mx 400 (32mb),win2k
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Milamber
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 07:33
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The 64MB GeForce4 MX460 is only about $170 Australian, so about half that US, and even the MX440 can handle most of the fancy effects, mostly with a decent framerate, too.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 09:41
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$170 Australia? Holy, does it come in PCI, or will it soon?

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

http://www.rpgcyco.com - My Website & Forums
Specs: PIII - 866MHz, 128MB SDRAM, 8MB SiS 630, 17inch monitor, 18.6GB HDD 5400rpm, Win ME, DX8.1b, 56k Modem
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 09:45
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Sadly... it isn't the ammount of Ram a Card has that matter speed wise really, its the graphics chip/processor

Ram only comes into play with how much media can be stored and read ahead (which on APGs doesn't really matter as much)

The cheapest card that I know that can use all of DBpros features without problem is the
- GeForce4 TV Mx440 64Mb from Watford Electronics
- £65(inc VAT)
i'm not sure if they deliver outside of the UK yet, but if you know someone in the UK it can be delieverd to them for free then my mom normally sends mine through Royal Mail, something like that would cost about £10

£75 ($110) for a GeForce4 with TV out isn't bad

From what I know with the old Demos the guys put down 4Mb Card ... however there was a compatiblity list somewhere of the tested cards.

"For the Greater Good"...
Kyi'Aun (Jedi Master) Rai'Ka
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Milamber
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 10:40
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If you need a PCI card, you're probably stuck with an old 32MB TNT2 M64 for around $85 Australian, but while it should run simple stuff fine, it won't be capable of the advanced stuff like reflections and shadow shading. Also it will be much slower than the GeForce4 is. A lot of the newer cards won't be made for PCI slots, as even AGP 4x is a bit slow for cards coming out now, and even the first AGP ports were something like twice as fast as PCI. I would suggest getting a new motherboard without onboard graphics, as well as a GF4 MX460 to make the most of DBPro. For a Pentium 3 processor, you can pick up a new motherboard for around $100 Aus.

System Specs: AMD Athlon 1700+ XP, GA-7VRX motherboard, 128MB DDR RAM, GeForce2 MX400 64MB VRAM
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 15:59
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"actually if in not mistaken didnt the dbs guys advertise on this very site that a 8meg card will run it all at perfect speeds? now i think there was some lies going on specially when one of them posts and tells you thats the problem."

It depends on the card actually. There are some 8meg cards out there that have no problems and no issues with any of the demos. See Guys findings on the RGT site for evidence of this, so the comment wasn't misleading. As for the card in question - that's a different matter.

Cheers,

Rich

"Gentlemen, we are about to short-circuit the Universe!"
DB Team / Atari ST / DarkForge / Retro Gaming
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VietStylist
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 17:36
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Hey how come everyone's processors are above 333? That's not fair. And my graphics card: 4mb. Now don't laugh or else... I'll put a sad smily face here.

Vs

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JimB
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Posted: 29th Sep 2002 18:42
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Raven Vegeta
I followed your advice and bought a "GeForce4 TV Mx440 64Mb TV out",now I have none of this "Unavailable" stuff come up.
I got it at a computer fair today for £59.00 which is pretty good.
Many thanks for all the help.

JimB

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Shadow Robert
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hehee... yup they're a nice card.
Anyone tested the new nPower2 Chipsets?
I was asked to checkout the new upgrades specifically for Max5, Maya4.5 and Lightwave 7.5 last night.
Man those new enhancements are OUTSTANDING for 3D!
We we're testing against an intel machine with identical speed processor ... Optiron vs Iteron.
AMD was 0.23ns faster in all operations - we turned on the nPower2 Enhancements, the Intel machine gained 0.24ns and the AMD machine gained 0.65ns!!
It was remarkable though because over the old nPower chipset, we we're talking a good 100% speed increase, if not more on some operations.
FireGL doesn't even come close to an nPower2 Quattro4 AGP8x DDR2

I want to upload the scenes tested (gonna have to ask permission first - work thing) but we're talkin' something my current machine rendered within an hour, now takes around 20mins.
My current render machine is
AMD Dual AlthonXP 1700+, 1.5Gb DDR Clk2, SLi Quattro4 200 64Mb DDR AGP 4x, AMD 768 Chipset, WinXP Pro (FAT64)

new machine which i'm looking into getting is
AMD Optiron 2.7Ghz, 1.5Gb DDR2, Quattro4 XGL 900 128Mb DDR2 AGP8x, nPower2 600, WinXP Pro (FAT64)

I was thinking of putting this off until January ... but after seeing the performance increase, hehee man it was like being a kid again. Only bad thing is the price tag

"For the Greater Good"...
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Kris
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Posted: 1st Oct 2002 00:17
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Okay, so like I just ordered a brand new GeForce4-MX420 64mb board for $54.00 which I _hope_to_god_ is going to fix this problem.

~kris
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dreamweaver
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Posted: 1st Oct 2002 11:57
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Hi Kris,

Let us know how you get on with this card as I am having the same probs, I take it this is AGP, I will have to look for PCI.

dreamweaver sleeps

http://www.pumpkinsoftware.co.uk the makers of Fruit 'n' Loot & Psycho Pumpkins.

Proc AMD 475 mhZ, 128mb ram, crap onboard ATI 8mb video chip, DX8.1, win 98se, DB v1.13.
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Rpg Cyco
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dreamweaver, if you find a PCI version, be sure to post here, please!

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

http://www.rpgcyco.com - My Website & Forums
Specs: PIII - 866MHz, 128MB SDRAM, 8MB SiS 630, 17inch monitor, 18.6GB HDD 5400rpm, Win ME, DX8.1b, 56k Modem
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Silentdragon
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hey guys, on the subject of drivers, are the detonator drivers compatable with the nVidia TNT2 Aladdin..erm...32mb?

always wondered...
thnx

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Shadow Robert
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Detonator 4 (40.71 beta) are fully compatible with every nVidia card after '96

[b] New interactive driving system... i like my new blue and black steering wheel [b]
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dreamweaver
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Posted: 5th Oct 2002 12:21
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Hi Rpg Cyco,

I have been looking on Ebay for some PCI video cards, there are a few, though I've been outbid up to now, cheapskate you know There is an GeForce4 PCI 64Mb DDR/TV Out Card (NEW) Item No #2058016127 currently £53.00 UKP with 3days 10hrs to go. Most will send overseas.

dreamweaver sleeps

http://www.pumpkinsoftware.co.uk the makers of Fruit 'n' Loot & Psycho Pumpkins.

Proc AMD 475 mhZ, 128mb ram, crap onboard ATI 8mb video chip, DX8.1, win 98se, DB v1.13.
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dreamweaver
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Hi,

There is a company offering this card (64MB PCI NVidia GeForce2 MX400 128-bit SDRAM) at the reasonable price of about £41.00, what are your views on this card as an halfway house to meeting DPPRO requirements ?

I will be changing my system possibly in a few months so I'm not looking to go for the top of the range card.

dreamweaver sleeps

http://www.pumpkinsoftware.co.uk the makers of Fruit 'n' Loot & Psycho Pumpkins.

Proc AMD 475 mhZ, 128mb ram, crap onboard ATI 8mb video chip, DX8.1, win 98se, DB v1.13.
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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 08:26
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Hey dreamweaver,

Thanks for that! I found the cards on there. There is quite a lot of them! I hope they keep putting them on, cause I can't get a new card till about December 7 (my birthday) hehe Anyway, I got a question, you might know the answer. My comp has 120MB of SD RAM, but those GF4s have DDR, so i'm guessing it won't work! Am I right in saying this do you think?
Thanks again!

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

http://www.rpgcyco.com - My Website & Forums
Specs: PIII - 866MHz, 128MB SDRAM, 8MB SiS 630, 17inch monitor, 18.6GB HDD 5400rpm, Win ME, DX8.1b, 56k Modem
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Rpg Cyco
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Posted: 11th Oct 2002 08:37
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Don't worry Raven Vegeta, has told me the answer!

l8ter

Rpg Cyco

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