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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / A couple of things are holding back my decision to buy DBPro...

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BlackHawk
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 22:38
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I'm hoping to buy DBPro in a couple of weeks when I go to the USA on the 14th of February. However, a couple of things are hindering my decision... (Please note that I currently have the demo of DBPro - the latest one with the Patch 3 improvements - so some of these hindrances may now have been fixed or at least modified for the better.)

1. Only 7 lights are allowed? Why 7 (instead of, for example, 8 or 16)? Why only 7 (why not have an unlimited number)? The thing is, I have a CShop level with approximately 100 different lights. Unfortunately, I realise that with this 7-light restriction, even though it's a good level (compared to some of the other crap I've done) it's never going to find its way into my game. Which leads me on to my second hindrance...

2. Does DBPro come with its own original, royalty-free BSP compiling utilities? And what would be the best (preferably free) program to make BSP maps that are compatible with DBPro? I'm hoping to sell my game when it's done, so that means that I cannot use any Quake or Half-Life maps compiled with the official tools. If DBPro *does* come with its own BSP compiling utilities, then do they bypass the 7-light limitation inherent in DBPro? And how would you use custom entity data with the DBPro BSP compiler? (For example, I'm making a 4-player game. Of course, having just one "info_player_start" entity will not work for four players. So how would I be able to make four custom entities named "info_player1_start" to "info_player4_start" and be able to use them in DBPro for my game?)

3. How do you use real-time shadows? I'd like to test it out on the demo before I get the full version of DBPro, if it's possible to test it out in the demo. Could someone please tell me how I would apply real-time shadowing to an object (for simplicity's sake, let's say a cube), and get the shadows to show up?

Many thanks in advance for generously giving your time, and your help. It is very much appreciated.

Ashley.
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 22:51
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1. 7 lights are not a limitation of DarkBASIC - DirectX nor the hardware can support more lights. One solution to this is lightmaps. Lightmaps cannot be changed dynamically (ie. while the game is running) but if you only want scene lighting then they are fine. The 7 lights are for dynamic things like headlights which need to change.

2. Yes - DBP includes an X to BSP converter for any models - and especially CShop creations. Unfortunately the X format does not allow for entities so if you wanted to create a BSP with entities in you would have to create a level from scratch using Quark or similar.

3. SET SHADOW SHADING ON objectnumber ... easy

DBPro comes with a Basic3D Showcase example which demonstrates how to use shadow shading.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 23:27
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Well said Shader - If I could add my 2 cents...

1. Lightmaps or even creative standard texturing is effective, the 7 active lights are easily transferable to different areas when depending on whats visible at the time. With creative programming you can have infinite ones
2. The BSP converter has a relively good success rate, especially with Cartography Shop. Howver that costs $40 not free. With "free" level editors, you usually have to own a full copy of the game (halflife or Quake 3 for example) and then pay a royalty to use the engine if you ever sell your game. Also BSPs do come with limitations - I often find to program my own level editor / format for a specific game is more practical - but thats just a personal preference.
3. Many of the shading effects, especially realtime Shadows and Reflections are very processor/grfx card intensive and should be used sparingly. Fake shadows are often posible, and fake reflections using sphere mapping are a lot more flexible for general use. Also if your Graphics card is less than a GF3 most of the shading effects won't work, but the faked effects will run on much lower spec machines


Anyway buy it, and enjoy it. I love DBPro, and so should you

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 23:51
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I have another 2 pence to add (I'm from the UK )

1. A good example of clever lighting usage is GTA3. All of the environment lighting is done with lightmaps. The car headlights only appear for the cars nearest to you and disappear when further away.

3. Shadow shading is indeed processor intensive. I suggest only using it on the main character if doing a 3rd person game or on the characters closest to you if doing an FPS and so on.

If possible fake the shadows using planes textured with the silhouette of a character - but scale it as the player gets closer to or further away from the ground. Doing this on a matrix or not flat object can be a little bit tricky but is possible. Generally I use shadow shading to study the effect of a shadow on a given object under the lighting conditions and on the environment and so on and then do a cheap-hack version.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 01:12
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Excellent points shader I agree completely

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Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 02:36
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I see that you are susceptible to my Force mind-changing powers - excellent [image of Burns tapping fingers together]

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
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John H
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 05:17
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I agree! CHEERS!

Woo-hoo! (image of homer raising arm)

Lol

RPGamer

Current - RPG: Eternal Destiny : Help Wanted!
http://www.halbrosproductions.netfirms.com
Dont ask those questions! Read the help files lazy!
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indi
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 06:04
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also to point out that Bloodlocust a few years back made a demo called party that showed multiple lights being emitted beyond what appeared to be 7, particles also.

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 08:50
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Actually, the absolute maximum number of lights seems to be dependant on the video card's capabilities. A couple years back, I wrote a light-swapping routine in DBC that was supposed to use only the 0-7 lights available...I made a spelling mistake while writing the code so the routine never got around to disabling lights with numbers higher than 7.

I ended up with like 20-something working lights or so before I realized anything was amiss. It didn't explode my computer or anything of the sort...the rooms in the level were simply being affected by lights that were nowhere near them. So I figured it must've been dependent on the hardware.

-Misanthrope
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David T
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 13:17
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Also shadow mapping requires pixel shaders which aren't on older cards.

Visit [url]www.lightning-systems.co.uk[/url]
You are the th person to view this signature.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 15:18
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"Also if your Graphics card is less than a GF3 most of the shading effects won't work" -

BTW I like your person counter thingy thats kinda cool

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