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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Application starting speed, Compiling Time & Exe size

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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 23:37
The speed at which an application starts and compiling time are very slow at the moment and the exes produced are huge.

On my fast system, applications take 3 or 4 seconds to start - fine.

However, on my slower 1Ghz / RIVA TNT 2 system - which is still pretty respectable and my 1.2Ghz / GF2MX system - again pretty respectable...

on the above systems a DBP exe takes 11 seconds and upwards to start - even for a REALLY basic one (spinning cube) - IMO this is really pretty unacceptable given that every other compiler I know and DB 1.x produce applications that start almost instantly - as they should.

The compiler speed is less of an issue but it is still pretty slow. AFAIK DBPro compiles all the DLLs into the executable. I don't mind this when producing a final exe but it would be nice to have a way of producing a lite exe when developing the project. As the DLLs are already on the developers system, there is no need to copy them in at runtime - this would make things faster. Especially when developing on slightly older PCs.

The exe size for applications is also pretty large. Can somebody explain why Blitz produces exes that are 1MB and DBP produces exes that are 7MB (for a full feature set, although the average size is from 2 - 5MB). This is just a pain when trying to post programs on the net because 7MB is pretty large for a modem user (although DBP exes do compress fairly well)

I am sure that there are good explanations to all of these questions - but I think that it is important that DBP does at least run reasonably well on even last-years PCs.
NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Rob K
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Posted: 1st Feb 2003 23:41
^^ However despite my complaining I should mention that when the program actually does get running on the mentioned system the frame rates obtained are very good - if this is the reason for the compile time then I can accept it - but the starting speed is terrible.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
xtom
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 00:44
I really hope the exe sizes are looked at soon too. At the moment mine is about 6 megs and it was only 2 megs in DB so it's going to be a pain when it comes to uploading and downloading it with media included etc. I don't really mind the compile or exe start up times as much so long as the frame rates are good.
mimesis
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 01:24
Another issue is the huge amount of ram dbp-exe's eats.
Even a simple project can take something between 15 to 30 megs.
The funny thing is that if u minimize the app the ram usage
drops to about 500k, and when it's restored goes up to
something like 1500k, which is perfecly acceptable.
So the question is, why does the exe grab so much ram at startup?

This measurement were done on my xp with task manager.
MrTAToad
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 01:29
Dont forget that XP grabs extra when running a program. It allocates what it thinks will be the minimum (or something like that) - you cant go by the Task Manager.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
IanM
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 01:32
The DLLs that make up the compiler are debug versions at the moment, and there's apparently a lot of duplicate code in the current ones (part of the reason for the patch 4 recode).

The full production ones will be a lot leaner when they appear (removal of checking code), so that when you produce the final executable of your app, it should be a lot smaller, and maybe a bit faster too.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 04:04
I was thinking the same thing ... that the DLLs were still Debug - would explain the extra size.

I mean take a look at that DLL i made recently to get the Windows Version - it was a simple 10line DLL in Debug mode came to 215kb and in Retail mode came to 41kb ...
Pro has what 35 DLLs for the commands, which are around 6-7Mb in size total - you can expect once they recompile once they're full happy with the code, probably get that down to around 2-3Mb

maybe even less if they only include the functions you use, perhaps use a protected DLL which can be combined into a single DLL ... as for the load time that is actually more to do with Windows XP

Run a DBpro DLL on Windows 98 or ME they start almost instantly - not sure what that has to do with though.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Rob K
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 15:47
I think the delay is the exe extracting all the DLL files to a temporary location.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 18:35
perhaps... XP hangs with things specifically written for it, generic bug i hope they fix in SP2 because i'm sick and tired of Max and Maya taking 3hours to boot up.

Personally i think a better option even if its just temporary is to setup the DLLs to be installed into Windows as dependancies first time the program is run.
Then any other time after that it only upgrades what is there

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
mimesis
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Posted: 2nd Feb 2003 19:07
@Raven
Max boots up in 10 sec on my xp machine, Photoshop even less.

@MrTAToad
Both Max & Photoshop dont grab 1/4 the ram as an dbp app does.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 3rd Feb 2003 00:39
Photoshop & Max take 30/40 secs to load on mine which is a pain in the a*se Mines quite a quick pc too - 1800XP, 512Mb Ram

The worst issue for me with DBP is the massive exe sizes and Ram usage - try writing print "hello World" compiling it and looking at the exe file! Somethings wrong there

Muddleglum
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 00:37
The exe size is another reason i haven't bought Pro.
Apart from the compilation time and download size ..I look at the masses of test programs i have for classic db and with Pro I would have no hard drive left!

One could delete the exe's of course but it might be a help to have another complile option in the editor -- of deleting the exe after execution. A small step and one would get a more fragmented drive I suppose.

I shall be watching the forum to see comment on whether the exes become smaller. Here's hoping.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 00:47
Photoshop takes 12seconds for me

Max take 3minutes (perhaps cause i have 200plugins, 3render plugins Raygun, Brazil, POVray + Reactor, Character Studio, Plasma, Flame, Combustion & Fusion)
that 3minutes doesn't include the 20-30seconds it takes before it even wants to recognise i've clicked on Max

Maya takes 1m 23seconds (with a similarly large array of plugins)

However when i boot up WindowsME they don't take even close to that long... i mean Photoshop took 5seconds, Max too 20seconds and Maya was instant (under WinNT 4 SP6)!
Even Paintshop takes a good 10seconds to boot up.

And no maybe i'm not using a truely state of the art machine, but its ridiculous that XP would take so much longer over the older OS.
Also 16-32Mb Buffer isn't that much for a DirectX Based program - infact its a pretty standard ammount.

And for me certainly isn't 1/4 of my Ram ... as most people should have around 32-64Mb as thier Virtual Ram shouldn't post a problem.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 01:23
I just finished a whole game for the upcoming retro competition and the upload size is 2mb.... Go figure?

I know this is a little arrogant, but I think it can be safely assumed that modems are a thing of the past, anyone who does not have broadband, is either a) Not really interested in downloading games over the internet or b) Has no broadband service locally. Fewer and fewer people fall into category B every day.

For those that have no broadband then aslong as your server supports download ressuming you have done all you can.

Broadband is here, if you aren't on it and your uploading and downloading games then I think that's crazy.

As for HD size, as an engineer who gets asked for computer advise all the time I normally recommend that when considering size of hard disk for your computer, work out what you can afford, work out what you need, add them together, double it, and put a naught on the end.

Sorry to disagree, but I don't think these are really issues.

However for compile time I can understand your point, but I don't sypathise because I only use my old machines for testing network functionality... sorry.

Pneumatic

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God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
the_winch
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 01:40
I made a quick 2d space invaders type game a clone of an old game I used to play a lot. In winxp the frame rate is approx 200fps on win98 its about 250fps and it starts almost instantly.

Rob K
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 03:10
DBPro's exes are needlessly large though and they also gobble RAM which is more of an issue. They take quite a while to start relatively, even on fast PCs.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 04:54
PneumaticDryll ... i'd hate to single you out here, but its thinking like that which piss's me off.

I have several connections, and right now i'm on Dial-up ... why?
Because of reason a) ... erm no because i download ALOT of software daily.
So then its because of reason b) ... erm no again,
actually for my stateside home, its because they don't give out 12month lease contracts (which is the minimum you have to sign) for people on my kind of Visa, which was Temporary.
So its not that i don't want it, can't afford it, or don't have it in my area, its cause i can't get it cause of my status. That aside i have a lovely T1 from the same company, so doesn't matter much ... that aside still i have a laptop which believe it or not unless i shelled out a nice $1,500 for a cellphone which can handle it, can only do 64kbps which is dial-up again.
And why do i not have it in my home in the UK ... why pay to have something which is almost 6x as much as it is in the states if i'm never here to use it?

This board is full of under 18's who may be able to afford it however as they can't purchase it themselves and thier parents won't purchase again its a VERY arrogant and annoying assumption that they fit into either of your catagories.

It's like those teens who have rich folks who are always saying get with the times, and if they're when they're willing to pay the bills themselves THEN they can have room in what goes on ... what piss's me off mostly when people do say you SHOULD be on broadband is it ISN'T exactly made avaiable to everyone - the prices for it are extreme, example being a 24hr Dial-Up stateside on adverage costs $10/month ... a 256k Broadband cost $40/month - plus the price of the modem, 56 or ISDN you can grab for around $15-30 depending on the quality add to that its plug and play. Broadband you tack on another $120 for installation + if you don't have a capable network card (which believe it or not sell for $20 but most don't know that) will cost you an extra $50-70.

I'm sorry but for most people that is just too bloody expensive, and the prices within Europe and the UK are even worse.

Add to that the coverage is truely terrible (around 10% of the states which is just about every major city) ... so saying that most should have broadband just piss's me off.
That statement is just like everyone should have the internet back in the early 90's - yes some could afford it but not everyone made the £300-ish a month to pay for it.

That Aside... even a dialup user wouldn't think twice about a 2mb download - 200mb and they might have reservations, but then again so would a broadbander unless you have a suitable ftp ... alot of them have speed cappers now which is just SOOOOOOO damn'd annoying.
Have all that extra speed and its downloading like a bloody ISDN line grrr

Personally i can put up with the speed, i'll put up soon a splash creator i've almost finished (don't worry i made it in C++ ) can use that in a similar way to LucasArts.
Should let everyone know that the game has been started, you can even do pregame runtimes in it - like extracting data and pregame calculations ... i just have it endlessly looping stuff like

"Bag of Skittles ... LOADED!"
"CokeCola .... LOADED!"

sad but i had to think of something to fill it
the ram is an issue, but i'm still pretty sure most of it is DirectX and stored within the Virtual Ram - could be wrong but i doubt it.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 09:25
I am sorry to tell you but if that is price of broadband in the US then they must have fallen behind in the world of telecoms, speed inhibitors too? Oh well, that's their problem.

I'm from the UK, and I pay much less for my broadband service. Installation was free, although moving house re-installation was £75. Monthly fee is ~£20 and gets me free telephone line aswell. That gets me a 512 connection and I don't have to buy the modem to go with it.

In contract I could purchase dial-up from BT, at £40 connection, £xx installation for a telephone line, £15 a month line rental, and £20-50 for an internal modem that many can't get working and have to swap for more expensive external modems, and then the cost of telephone calls on top of that it is significantly more expensive to use the telephone to connect to the internet, more so when establishing a new connection.

Whilst I accept that some people do use dial up connections, anyone seriously interested in downloading games on the internet has long since moved on, you yourself have a T1...

Pneumatic

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God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
The admiral
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 09:45
you guys do realise that patch 4 has fixed all these things....the compile speed has been greatly enhanced as well as the fps rates and file size decreased

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 10:18
no it hasn't... Patch4 is for upgrading the internal speed when dealing with large numbers of objects as well as taking away the main bugs within the several formats being loaded natively.

Has nothing to do with the plethira of commands in the debug DLLs (which are clearly marked)

As for that Pneumatic you must be on Telewest within a or very close to a Major city. They are the only company with rates that low!

which would be fine if that Oftel crap had really enabled all the Cables companies to fight over all the areas independantly - but even after 10years they're still fighting over the individual territories. And around here Hemel Hemstead is the only town with Telewest, everywhere else its either NTL or BT ... or ofcourse FreeServe or AOL - but you MUST have a BT line to use them.

NTL give you a good deal £15/month for a 128kb Broadband - which includes installation, the modem blah blah... however it neglects to mention in large print that you MUST be a digital cable subscriber - right there is an extra £15/month for the basic package.

Prices for Broadband all over the UK vary so much that really THAT is the WORST country you could pick as an example. And there isn't any bright future insight for making it more competitive because each area will STILL be owned by particular cables companies.

Cable&Wireless, they're packages are just absurd for Broadband... And yes the FreeServe and AOL offers do look interesting on the surface, but as you need to subscribe to BT you find its cheaper not to.

It's the exact same story with Cable/Satillite deals, you get discounts going for one over the other just to find hidden costs.

And don't say speed inhibitors are just the States Problems, its ALL outgoing requests for files - Lycos/Geocities is one of the biggest offenders, not only is the monthly useage set to something stupid like 1GB/week but also they have a capped speed of 128kb.

It so petty and small minded to believe that cause YOU have something cheap that means everyone else should!
Wake up and smell the coffee mate, cause quite frankly with thinking like that how do you expect to ever get enough people willing to actually come veiw and software you develop?

Sit there with a big neon sign against a 2MB download "WARNING DIAL UP USERS MAY DOWNLOAD THIS SLOW!"
pah! stop thinking your new toy is there for everyone cause it isn't and you'd be wise to listen up to see how many people ARE still on dialup.

Especially as you'll be capturing the budget market more than those with cash flowing from thier pockets. The only reason a majority of people HERE have good connections is cause they connect through thier schools and uni's etc... which they don't pay for.

I'm not on the T1 OC/255 cause i simply wanted to download games quicker ... my isdn 64k modem can download things fast enough for my likes - and i don't really care much for broadband. Because once you get in a busy area like say anywhere in LA, it starts to lag because too many people access it. Unlike most i don't have the luxary of staying up all nite simply to use the internet.
Add to this whenever i download things there are usually a number of proxies going on so that no matter where i am i can have my home desktop to download software and run it from, i then have the desktop here which will reboot every 12hours unless i'm using it which is the main proxy which i access the net by ... then i have the T1 for connecting to every other machine with Zero Sync.
I can collect and send media and such to work as if i was on that very computer, i can even use a rendering machine there rather than at home - grab a 1gb raw format compress at home whilst having it render a second batch.

The work is always there and online if anyone at work requires it... i don't have the T1 for personal use right now. Even once it is fully setup it'll still only really be for work connections and the second line will be for FMTau Labs Website - I still use my modems daily.

For some of us it isn't cost efficient or sound to have a broadband connection. It would be nice, but that about all it would be. It's a luxary nothing more - so you should understand that very very well!

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Rob K
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 20:18
Its not the fact that broadband is here that bothers me. If Blitzers can have 1MB exes, why can't we? - Given the extra power of DBP I would have thought a 3MB maximum (discounting media and long programs)

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 21:47
As noted above its because the DLLs are weighing it down ... but then again who cares about Blitz?
i mean think about it you notice how small you get your program when you have a PAK file?

thats how small the ACTUAL program is, the rest is the DLL and general media - which should be installable and then updated as nessary.

and no the Broadband doesn't bother me either, its that kinda attitude towards we should all have it ... i mean you know i don't think people should be placed in such a way and pressured to get the latest technology that maybe they just can't afford.

Look at it right now, if you don't have a GeForce or Radeon then "really" you shouldn't be playing games because your not serious enough. And there are far more tehcnophobes out there who can't tell you what a Graphics card is from the CPU ... saddening really

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Muddleglum
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 23:38
Anyone know how much of the speed of compilation is a result of writing to hard drive?
It would surely only take a tiny proportion of ram to compile completely in memory ...an editor option to speed things up and save disk space??

Oh yes. Some of us are unlikely to ever have access to broadband. Or the money to pay for it if it does come. I guess it doesn't matter much in the scheme of things - but just remember it is so.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 4th Feb 2003 23:58
Broadband is pretty unlikely never to come near me - My house I built is over 3 miles from the nearest one, and thats 25 miles from any real town - I'm lucky to get a phone line lol

Plus £30 ish a month is ino a lil steep for the average punter or hobbiest

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 00:11
muddle... the funny thing is in the scheme of things over 80% of online users are still dialup - that was in a survey done by Mircosoft, and alot of Broadbanders still have a Dialup when thier broadband is too slow or cutout (which is not that unusual as alot of Broadband connections will just quit for no reason)

In the grand scheme its still a Dialup dominated world, with Broadband being for the Rich Gamers - having 3,000,000 people using Broadband might seem alot to you, but when the online world community is close to 24,000,000
i mean c'mon ... and as i said you're aiming your games at the budget market who can't afford this type of service.

And quite frankly it is a poor netiquette to rub it in the faces of those who can't get such connections, that they should be with the "times"

A Majority of people own DvD Players ... does that mean we should ONLY sell DvD and not VHS now?
Sorry just seems very stupid thinking to me.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Rob K
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 00:20
"Plus £30 ish a month is ino a lil steep for the average punter or hobbiest "

True... you do need to use the internet quite a bit to make it worth it... but it really is worth it.

1) Use it whenever you want, no "can't go now because it is 3p/min prime-time"

2) Use your phone at the same time

3) Download videos (of err... movie trailers)

4) Download everybody's DB games in 2 seconds flat

... this post was brought to you by BT / Telewest and NTL.

NOBODY has a forum name as stupid as Darth Shader. I do.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 01:13
Agreed Raven I'd love braodband, but no1 round here can get it, and I'm not sure I'd wanna pay twice whatever I do now just to allow faster downloads - I mean I'm connected 24/7 anyway so stuff can just download when I'm asleep! So basically the only real use 4 broadband 4 me would be playing games online, and thats hardly the be-all and end-all of computer usage.

Just noticed ur earlier post - "Bag of Skittles ... LOADED!" "CokeCola .... LOADED!" - lol I always make splash screens for my games, however I do it from within DBP so its still slowish to appear - but I get them to do that first - so essentially it just loads a backdrop picture, displays it, then adds text for each loaded section. A decent Flash type fast external program would be cool, and simple to program I guess

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 01:18
Shader - sorry didn't see your post, it was on page 2 Umm

1 - For around £15 p/m you can get 24hr net access on dial up
2 - If ppl wanna ring me they just txt or dial my mobile free if they're on the same network
3 - lmao - now THAT is the only thing really enticing me. however, I can get a nice ammount of "Trailers" by just leaving Kazaa on overnight as I sleep
4 - Ok good point, but most DBP demos/games are 10MB Max, again that doesn't take long on dialup using DAP - especially if u leave it over night. Plus most guys here post on free webspace which won't support fast downloads anyway (? I think...)

But you're right, if it WAS in my area I prolly would use it, its just I'm more hardcore in2 pcs than your average punter

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 02:30
Well my setup here is fine... i'm on NTL with Sky+, so firstly i have to pay for a single phoneline £8/month + extra line is another £3/month, installation was free at the time cause i had Analogue Cable
plus £20/month for AOL International (which allows me to connect to AOL Worldwide on any connection)

whereas if i had broadband... just for here on BT its, £10/month line rental + £30 for a 256Kb connection

or with NTL, i'd have to have Cable Digital £15/month (free phone) + £15/month for 128kb broadband.

as on my AOL i can use my phoneline with my ISDN connection in the Laptop at 128Kb... there is literally no difference.
Add to that I have Sky+ cause a full package is £35/month for everything (cept porn) and for NTL:Home it's £55/month - i mean which would you choose?

Add to that I can use my CreditCard to shop on SkyDigital, I can play games with my controllers, i can email if i don't fancy using the PC, i have teletext which NTL doesn't have ... oh yeah plus Tivo
don't forget this isn't the only property i pay the bills on - i have my mom's house and my house.

to me atleast, having my folks happier than the ability to download quickly really is more important to me.
On my connection i can download most media within an hour anyways... i mean a 10Mb game if the connection is good is just about an hr of download time. Which most of the time is spent messing about anyways and coding - even once it does download i never really notice it ... just there for when i do try it out. I've been known to leave demo's for upto 2weeks after downloading before i have the time to check them out.

And KG has a point... most peeps use Free WebSpace which is 512kb -> 2.5Mb Max sizes - which is quite ironic them saying about how we should afford all this gadgetry and such when they won't even shell out something like £100/year for simple webspace.

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 02:49
Nice setup u got there Raven - Is it me or is our Sky Digital service soooo much better technically than the equivalents in the States? Plus MAAAAN I love TIVO its the most useful thing since sliced television When I'm in the US I really miss digitiser also - life's not the same without it - man I'm sad lol

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
[email protected] - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Feb 2003 08:12
lmao... yeah the stateside Satillite system just don't match upto good ol' Sky
they bloody slow to use, and the one i have has this visual remote which looks like a Jaguar pad with a colour display instead of 32buttons - i can figure out howto turn it on/off and flick to the next channel and previous channel.

It does alot of wonderful things i'm told ... but i can't bloddy figure it out, the SkyDigi remote is just such a comfort
And yup i love the builtin Tivo too - hehee

there are some Cable companies in the states that have similar systems, but if you've ever used an NTL:Home box - well yeah enough said

Anata aru kowagaru no watashi!
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 7th Feb 2003 09:31
I don't understand your argument on pricing, I used to use the internet two nights a week - now I have NTL and I spend less on the internet, and I use it a whole lot more Yes you mentioned with NTL that you need to take 1 other service, try taking telephone as there's no line rental on it now...

You also overlook the point in your zeal to brand me as the big bad guy, I said if your serious about downloading games and broadband is available then you should get it, otherwise the best a programmer can do for dialup users is ensure their server supports resuming. What is evil about that?

Go ahead, distort.

Pneumatic

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Feb 2003 10:46
Pneumatic... with NTL the fine print (and i should know i pay for it for my mom) states that you MUST be a Digital Cable Subscriber, else you pay £16 more/month ontop of the service.

As for being "serious" about downloading ... i'm not sure what you'd count as a serious downloader, or why this should have even been a consideration you brought up.
This is the point i'm trying to make here, stop pushing people to feel they need to get something that either are unable or can't afford.

You're just out to make people feel bad that you have a Broadband so you'll think of these people first, anyone else well is like "whatever" to you.
I don't care if the best you can do is make sure that a server has resumable capabilities... the point was this should never have been an issue in the first place and i'm tell you it was wrong to say anything about it!

Those who can't get it, because they're a) not old enough b) not in an area c) not on the right service d) can't afford it ... etc ... all you'll achieve is make them feel bad that they DON'T have broadband.
Downloading alot then a Broadband connection will help, but it isn't an essential - perhaps you should learn this!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?

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