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I have looked at the whole game. The game was good...and then from fear of not being original enough they added the hover nozzle, which ruined the game in my oppinion.

I tend to think that there are 2 types of gameplay when designing a game:

Visual Gameplay - what the character in the game is doing

User Gameplay - what the player is actually doing

User Gameplay is what seperates games from films. Films are 100% visual gameplay. Games have varying proportions. The Matrix had lots of cool flips and stuff but all you had to do for them was press a single button and it would decide the flip for you. This means it has a lot of visual gameplay and very little user gameplay - very BAD for a game. Wario Ware, however, is a GREAT game because it has the focus on user gameplay and is as far from a film as you can get.

Take Mario Sunshine...
The flips added to visual gameplay and a lot to user gameplay (the skill of performing a triple jump onto a wall and then a spinning wall jump to land on a tight-rope)

The spraying nozzle improved the combat system because of cleaning the goop. Again, this added to both visual and user gameplay so was a good move.

However, recent Nintendo titles have tried to have some original visual gameplay (in order to sell to the casual gamer), often at the expense of the user gameplay. The hover nozzle was a desperate attempt to improve the visual gameplay originality derived from the fludd. It added to visual gameplay because it LOOKED fun hovering across gaps. However, it subtracted from the user gameplay because it removed the dependance on the flips and made the player merely hold the R shoulder button to cross HUGE gaps or skip out whole sections of a level. This makes it, in my oppinion, a bad move. Either there should have been a highscore for each shine - stating how little water you use - or the hover nozzle should have lasted only a second - to merely enhance a flip jump rather than removing the need for it.

My fear is that Nintendo is moving - like games on the X-Box and PS2 - towards visual gameplay rather than user gameplay. I greatly feared Pikmin being visual gameplay orientated but luckily it had lots of user gameplay. Nintendo used to be totally dependant on user gameplay - which was a good thing - in titles on the N64, SNES and NES. However, in the current (and next) console generations the improved cinematic-esque visuals are going to shift the focus of games to visual gameplay - until the point where the entirity of every game is like a Resi 4 interactive cutscene.

On the point of enjoyable game development.

Well it's a 2-sided coin.
Companies like Valve/id Software/Epic are hardly 'breaking' the mold with thier games, yet they love working on them.

Bungie on the other hand put thier heart and soul into Oni, it flopped.. so they decided to make a fairly generic FPS and they flew from being an 'OK' company to being one of the multimillion dollar showcase companies.

It's no secret that the Bungie team actually seriously dislike how Halo eventually turned out either.

Now to the point of Mario Sunshine.. sorry but it sounds like most of the people here haven't ACTUALLY played it.

Because it is IMPOSSIBLE to complete the game without Fludd, not hard, not unlikely.. IMPOSSIBLE. And I'm not just talking about the bosses, but some areas you just can't get to with conventional means.

Mario Sunshine didn't just add Fludd to the gameplay mix either. There are a whole host of new things and abilities for both Mario and Yoshi throughout the game, with innovative puzzles that relied on the world around you rather than simply platforms.

Also Fludd's 'Hover' ability with ISNT like a jetpack because Jango Fett's backpack gives you a higher jump, like Jedi Force Jump... you can't ACTUALLY hover around; where'as Fludd will hover Mario about jump height from where he was before. The Rocket Jump is similar to Jango Fett's Rocketpack, but even then.. because of how it is done in Mario where you get very very little control over it, they work differently.

See I have no issues with how Nintendo put Mario Sunshine together, and I don't see Fludd as some 'gimmic' either. It is an integral part of the gameplay, that relies on you being able to use it effectively with the rest of Mario's range of movement in order to get through.

There is on area in particular I can think of where you just CAN NOT get through without Fludd and that's the Volcano Cave.
Where you have to jump from platform to platform, but the platforms below you are on fire. So you have to use hover mode to put out the fires and quickly jump to the next platform before it comes back.

Sorry, but anyone who did actually play Mario Sunshine wouldn't be so quick to judge it and try to compare features which while not all of them were new, they were unique in thier use.

Mario has always looked as cartoony as it is, infact the graphics did seem like a minor update. Pikmin was cut because it was a cute style of game. Zelda The Wind Waker was designed to look just like the Japanese Television show and actually is THE best example of Cell Shading I've seen to date, because it's just so smooth any realistic.. unlike Viewtiful Joe which doesn't actually look that cartoony.

Starfox looks cute, but again.. we'd always seen him in space, and the game wasn't exactly able to be classed before as cute or not. I mean you in a spaceship against polygon blobs. It was more about the action. Starfox Adventures had that aspect plus a cool Semi-RPG Element Adventure gameplay, it was much like Banjo-Kazooie for the GC only using Starfox on a very well designed adventure.

Sorry.. but I'm getting truely pissed off recently with all of this Nintendo bashing.

Valve blatently steal the Force Throw from Dark Forces 2, and Heretic 2.. no one bats an eyelid about it. Mario is using a host of things that are unique and enhance the gameplay and you have retards claiming it was stolen from elsewhere.

Wake up and smell the java! Nintendo are about the only damn company right now pushing fun and innovative titles.

But look at how the console is seen and thier market compared to the X-Box and PS2 that are churning out dozens titles identical to each other. Almost every GameCube game is a new and interesting experience.. and while Capcom are also being innovative with thier recent games, look at the game system they're being put on.

On the GameCube you can be innovative and creative. Breathing life back in to dead genres or just reinventing previous ones.. and you know what they can do that because GameCube owners tend not to just buy rehashed crap..

Crap on the Cube doesn't sell. Right there is your market difference. Right there is the reason only a few developers create for it. Right there is the reason that Nintendo's home console system will never be in a threat of failing.

The gamers Nintendo was pleasing 20years ago, are now on the Cube because games are constantly evolving and challenging the status quo.

I have got, and completed, Mario Sunshine.



That doesn't mean to say a jetpack can't hover and not give height. I have never played the Jango Fett game it is just an example of a game that has a jet pack.





I never said the whole game was possible with it. Where it IS possible, however, it IS much more fun using only conventional means. The fludd is ok to use for combat, switches and puzzles (such as the cool boats). I personally find the game is much more fun without the hover / rocket nozzles. By the way, you can spray those fire platforms from the platform before without having to use the hover nozzle. It is possible to get many shines without the Fludd. Take the hill side cave secret sprite in the windmill valley course. It appears impossible to get to the cave but it IS possible. Climb to the top of the windmill, leap off the windmill onto the high ropes. Bounce along them to the platform nearest the cave. Jump down onto the platform next to gave and hop on to the hill side. It was actually GREAT fun relying on acrobatics rather than the hover nozzle in that example.



I LOVE the bright cheerful graphics. I think they rock and Nintendo is right to use them. However, I don't like their reliance on them to make a game appear original when it actually HINDERS the gameplay - as I feel the hover nozzle did.



I am a Nintendo fan and despise other console owners who bash them. They do provide original games, but what I think is wrong is their FEAR of having games that could appear less original. They were scared of not having Mario Sunshine appear original, so they felt obliged to add in an extra gadget - the hover nozzle. However, I feel this obligation for an extra gadget was at the expense of the gameplay and was a bad move. The DS version of Mario proved to be a far more enjoyable game - despite the less powerful hardware - because they were not afraid of sticking to acrobatics - rather than gadgets. It did not remove the skill aspect as I feel the hover nozzle did.



I agree totally with this; it is the BEST console by far. I love all my Gamecube games with their original and innovative gameplay (and graphics). I just happen to have ONE complaint out of ALL of the Gamecube games I have (about 20 or so) and that is that the hover nozzle detracted from the game. Mainly due to the unfair pressure on them not to make each game have a unique gimmick - even if it ruins the challenge / fun.

I am sorry if what I have been saying has been misinterpreted:

- I love Nintendo because they DO make innovative titles.

- I have never played Bounty Hunter and have no oppinion regarding it. All I know is that it was considered less original than Mario Sunshine despite having its gameplay also orientated around a gadget - just a dull technological one rather than a cartoony fludd.

- I love cell shading and different graphical styles, so please do not think I am against them.

- The ONLY thing I dislike is the HOVER NOZZLE (and rocket nozzle). I am against NOTHING else in regards to Nintendo, Bounty Hunter or innovative games! Please do not think I am. I am a Nintendo fan that just happens to dislike ONE thing in ONE game!!!