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FPSC Classic Product Chat / Felling slightly misled.

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Les Horribres
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 22:03
What you said before (go back 1 page) was basically that there is no difference between hardcodes FPS and engine run FPS' although FPSC's engine is beyond rediculus in effecincy, what was ment is that Engines will always prove less effective then programs, until it is so deeply incorperated into the game that it is almost just 1 program.

What your saying now is that FPSC's engine should be effeicent, which is true. But until FPSC's engine accounts for every contingency (what does that word mean?) it will never work propperly. Personally I believe that if FPSC ran like a engine that you can run from programs (sometimes refered to as objects) then it could show power. Then you could only perfect the effecency of the engine (all tasks run fast) and directly input what you need and where you need it. Even add things you need.
uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 22:23
OnePost,

I cant disagree with you there as I dont know in exact truth and specifically what you mean unless you give me an actual simple example outline and I mean in a simple form - you are getting too complicted with me - my brain hurts thinking of how I get FPSC to work now.

In fact I presume I understand what you are trying to say but cant be sure. In fact it dont matter whether I understand or not does it? as I cant do anything to help - though in effect quite obviously its easy for anyone to understand that everything that has an influence on gameplay at run time needs to be as efficient as possible where all needed components communicate, one with the other smoothly and efficiently - a break in that efficiency causes havoc (scuse the pun).

Perhaps I should say that I understand and mean to refer to a game engine as one program even though it may be reliant upon much more than that. I use the term game engine quite literally and loosely as meaning everything - that may encompass at game run time.

Owch that hurt! - anyway your the expert at engines I just make pretty pictures for people to look at when inside them.

Just One Old Man
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 22:49
FernandoK has a good point. It's kind of like jumping in a Lotus Espirit and disovering it can only go 7 mph. You expect more from the hype.

I got into FPSC at the beginning of the EA (yes, I'm still here and haven't given up, so hopefully I'm not a "git", whatever that might be). I've been developing software for almost 30 years, so I do have a feel for what it takes to create and degug an application of this size, not even considering enhancements. However, I did think that when V1 was finally released it might have been more stable and feature complete.

Yes, it's always nice to get a product out the door and generate income, but these days with internet forums and Goodle searches it's not a good business practice to have too many people complaining about a product, either. Especially if you're not Microsoft or someone else who can stand the bad press. Though I haven't given up on FPSC, I am still waiting to see how this all shakes out before I invest much more time in the product.

I do like FPSC, I really do. I also know that it's not a product from you should have high expectations of creating a AAA title, but I would like to use it as advertised (drag and drop with little scripting) to quicly produce some fun freebie games. For the person above who wondered where else you can get an engine for <$50, there are actually quite a few of them. For $100 you can get Torque, which I have and like, comes with full source, and which allows you to sell commercially. It's just not drag and drop. I wanted FPSC for it's ease and speed of producing a decent lower end shooter that didn't require months of coding and debugging.

Every application has it's niche, and FPSC was created to allow people on a minimal budget to create (with a little imagination) a fun little shooter to give away or sell. Just like Mark Overmar's Game Maker is intended for the same purpose in the 2D arena. The difference is that Mark's program does what it says. FPSC is a fantastic idea, a great program, and should stand to make TGC a lot of money. But first, it has to work as advertised.

For those saying not to gripe about bugs/missing features because it's only been out a few months, I have to say that's what the EA was for. V1 was supposed to be the full release we waited patiently for. And once again, yes I understand a certain number of bugs.

I do think that TGC themselves should make an appearance here periodically, just to let us know how things are progressing, or if they are. And being associated with the company or not, as a business owner myself I would not have someone moderating my forums that would treat customers - past/present/potential - with any amount of disrespect. Bad for business. If a user gets too carried away on the forums, dump the post or ban the individual after a fair and respectful warning. If the user is simply complaining because they didn't get what was advertised - and it doesn't really matter if the price was $50, $5000, or $0.37 - it would seem to be a valid complaint which should be addressed.

I know people who own, work with, or create a product are often over zealously protective when other people complain about it, but there are always two sides to every story and people have a right to voice their opinion when done in the right way. And sometimes people do get frustrated when they can't get actual answers to real questions.

That said, I do hope TGC progresses with FPSC and it becomes a viable product. I'm waiting as anxiously as everyone else to see what's happening with it.

Just my $13 worth...

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 22:57
Just One Old Man,

Congratulations, that seems to be a very well written and decently honest view and a sensible most accurate statement.

I admire the well calculated assessment.

Would you like to spend more time at the forum?

It could use your most valuable input.

Xilch
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 23:09
Noun: Git

Usage: Brit

1. A person who is deemed to be despicable or contemptible
"the British call a contemptible person a 'git'"

Let's hope noone here matches this description.

"Shop smart. Shop S-Mart!"
uman
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Posted: 14th Dec 2005 23:14
None at all

Just One Old Man
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 00:17
@uman: I actually do spend a lot of time between this forum and the one at GarageGames. Maybe too much. I have since this forum's inception. Just didn't actually join till later on. I've also owned and used DBP for a few years now.

I don't usually offer much input because of the number of slam-dunks I often see in posts because some poor sap didn't put his question/post in the right thread/form, or it was a dumb or "newbie" question, or someone didn't like their opinion or their advice. It isn't just here, it happens at the other forums too. Just makes me a little shy of posting too often. I do, though, make use of and appreciate all the helpful posts here that advance my knowledge of FPSC.

Once in a while, I accidentally get into a post like this and before I know it I'm up on my soapbox. I taught at a university for a number of years and one thing I learned is that everybody starts somewhere, and when I see someone chastised or admonished for asking a basic question or not knowing local "protocol" it irks me.

I'm sure there are a lot of people observing behind the scenes here that are actually afraid to post because of that. I think a friendlier community would generate much more interest in group efforts, and really help FPCS move forward.

And I'm NOT saying that everyone is like that. The list of people that are always willing to help, and do, is too long to put here, but everyone knows who they are.

For instance, if someone asks a question that's been answered many times before, a simple "Check this." with a link is much more appropriate and friendly than a "Search the forums, dit. It's been answered."

By the way, Xilch, thanks for the info. Those crazy Brits. (For those who wonder - yes, that was a joke) Despicable.....I can only think of Daffy Duck.

Anyway, uman, that's why I don't post much here. Except to tell someone thanks, or nice job.

/JOOM

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
uman
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 00:26
Well this thread is quite well behaved now considering some strong opinions - its getting bettter that way at least albeit slowly.

I am in the UK and did not know that "git" might be a particularly brit word for "nice person" but "you lives and learns" as the brit saying goes.

Anyway nice to see you - I may see you at the Torque forum too.

Just One Old Man
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 01:06
Nice to meet you too, uman. I'll look for you at GG. I noticed you were in the UK, I'm in the states. Being from there you may not notice it, but I've always been amazed how much good, innovative software comes from the UK and a few other European countries. Especially programming software and utilities.

Back in the early eighties I wrote and sold a few database utilities/add-ons for dBase/Clipper, and the first sale for the first one I wrote was from the UK from a Database Magazine ad. Back before the good ol' WWW.

Anyway, I'll see around the forums...

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
transient
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 01:33
Might be worth clarifying some of the points made here:

"TGC don't post enough": they're extremely busy people who've just brought out a revolutionary game making app and a major upgrade for they're core product.

It would be nice if at some point in the future we could get some direct feedback, but don't hold your breath. I would prefer that they spend time coding and working on they're products.

Also, if they started dealing with it's customers directly, people would expect it all the time and would get annoyed if they didn't answer they're questions immediatedly.

It's a damned if you do or don't situation that all indi/game companies suffer (at least the ones I've been associated with).

Croteam got the same treatment - and probably still do.

"It's bad for business": Annoying picky customers is something every company goes through. They'll be around longer than most of the users here - despite they're "atrocities".

Caligari get the same treatment, as I've been finding out.

If you want to see bitching go to the Truespace forums some time, or the Truespace 7 thread at CgTalk, CGNews forum.

Mainly mummy I dropped my ice cream type stuff, as you see everywhere on the net these days, unfortunately. The experienced hardcore element seem more than happy with the product.

These forums are a lot more composed and rational for the most part.

Also to people who are trying to reload FPSC to stop it crashing I'd recommend CCLeaner (I think I've already discussed this elsewhere here - I'm not sure).

It has a regscrub type feature and it's free. It hasn't let me down yet - and I've reloaded FPSC a couple of times now.

Sorry for the long post - but when in Rome......

instinct is more valuable than intelligence.....
Aoneweb
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 02:43
Quote: "If it was that easy then TGC would be charging thousands for FPSC."

HaHaHa, they dropped the license for a reason.
FPSC was written with DBpro, which is very buggy, think about it.
Why did TGC release the source so quickly?
My prediction, There will be NO FPSC2, this is dead software.


Just One Old Man
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 02:44
You're right on most points, transient, and I do own TrueSpace and GameSpace, so I know what those forums are like too.

However, an occasional "Hi, we're still here and working" would be good. I don't think anyone here is asking for every post to be answered immediately, just the periodic (weekly?) update would be good. The first question I have to ask myself when I'm thinking about developing a product is "Can I support this?".

Imagine that you write a database app for a company at the Australia Zoo, drop it off with known issues, and go on holiday for two months. They may be a little miffed. If, instead, you called once in a while to let them know you're working on those issues, it may be more acceptable.

I'm not slighting the work being done by TGC, I hope they're burning the midnight oil bringing FPSC up to speed. But I've written three long posts here tonight while working on other things and it didn't take that much time.

In any case, I don't want this to turn into something, so I'm bowing out of the discussion. Just originally wanted to note that a short 5 point update from the TGC guys about FPSC progress would probably soothe a lot of frustrated people. Just making an observation...

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
smoked
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 03:34 Edited at: 15th Dec 2005 03:44
@ Jiffy

no the site dosn't say you can make the next top title, but it does say, "share & sell", and they also say, "We tried our best to ensure that nearly everything was controlled via a script rather than hard coded into the program." Which to me says: with some hard work you have a competing chance in the market.

(some people think differently... and interpret words and advertisements in different ways... the above is simply how i interpreted FPSC's site)

The fact is, if you buy this program surely don't expect to sell too many games. Can't load or save = not a chance to compete. Only multiplayer deathmatch.... Try to get a serious gammer hooked... sure pal!!! I can pick apart FPSC all evening but that's not what this thread is for ... simply i felt misled ::SHOOT ME::
KeithC
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 05:30
@Transient

I'm not sure how long you have been hanging around the Caligari forums but the people at Caligari do come around to post even though they are quite busy; even Roman (President/CEO) comes in a few times a month to let people know what's going on, or answer some questions. So it's not unheard of for this to occur. It does however help to put to bed some of the festering problems on the forums sprouting from long-unanswered questions.

The GameSpace forums are a different story however. I can't remember ever seeing Roman around there in a year or so. Tom Grimes tries to take the time to respond to us when he can, and he usually takes the brunt of it from us...but he handles things in a professional manner. Hopefully things will pick up there after the 'almighty' TS 7 is out officially.

I agree with JOOM, they should make an appearance sometime; if anything it makes for good PR...of course that's only important to businesses that wish to thrive.

-Keith

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
Just One Old Man
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 06:32
@KeithC:

Maybe we should open a forum site for discussing game related topics. Not specific to any particular engine or support software, just a place for people to get and provide help. Lock out all the despicable people and make it a place where all the newbies and entry level people can come to ask questions without fear of reprisal.

We could make it a developers network for beginning developers. Gather up all the tuts, docs, and info we can find and make it easily available. Discuss different engines and utility software. Have a download area where people can place free support utilities to make them available to everyone. Create specific threads where people can ask for and hopefully get specific answers. Might take a while to get it built and the information flowing, but it might be worth it. Think if we built it anybody would come and chat?

/JOOM

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
Just One Old Man
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 06:33
Oh, and sorry for hijacking this thread with that last post...

The other night I was staring up at the stars, wrapped in thought and wondering............where the hell did my roof go?
KeithC
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 06:40
At least all the 'gits' would come.

"Some people are only alive because it's illegal to kill them".
Van B
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 09:22
They released the source code to let you load levels into DBPro, that wasn't the source code to the whole thing!

I can't believe you lot are still going on about me saying 'git', get a freakin life already - it means nothing, it's the sort of derogotive term you'd use on a 5 year old!.


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 09:47
@van b: i think there stuck on the git thing because maybe the attitude was behind it.if you represent tgc and you call the customers "gits",which leads me to believe that now people have paid their money you couldnt give a toss about their grumbles then thats bad business.

@aoneweb: very good,written with buggy software then you get buggy software.

i completley understand that tgc are busy and cant post on here,but then again van b said that once they finish a project then they move onto somthing new so it looks like fspc has died b4 it begun.
sure everyone gonna say " you can do all your own prefabs and stuff".........with what....a prefab maker that doesnt work properly and no instructions on how to make stuff.some of us dont have the time to learn how to code in dbpro then relearn how to do stuff in fspc.
to be honest 3dws is the last thing im going to buy from tgc.theirs much more out their on the market for about the same price but is just...well better and easier to use.
cartshop was good as it WAS easy to use and very powerful but thats about it....everything else has probelms and according to the mods if we dont like it then we are all gits...if we cant voice anything then whats the point of the forum.
Torrey
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 09:54
FPSC - First Play, Soon Crash.

I really like the FPSC product despite the bugs. The reason I bought it was to play around and have fun creating FPS levels. Todays market requires pretty tough competition if you really want to make money selling FPS games. Most of the buyers should have known when they bought FPSC that they really wouldn't make a large sum of money with it.

Enjoy the product for what it is and have fun designing and creating!

tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 10:13 Edited at: 15th Dec 2005 10:17
i think 90% of people know that making money is very hard,i bought it to put my ideas into a working model.........my gripe is that when i bought it,it was advertised with elements that it no longer has in the finished version.
i have no intention of making money from it,or starting a "company",just for fun,but it can no longer be used with my ideas.
and for vanb to say that they are abondoning us because we have abanded the product makes me feel that tgc attitude will kill off fpsc very quickly.
Van B
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 10:22
Quote: "i think there stuck on the git thing because maybe the attitude was behind it.if you represent tgc and you call the customers "gits",which leads me to believe that now people have paid their money you couldnt give a toss about their grumbles then thats bad business."


Ok, it seems that wasn't the last time I had to say it.

I DO NOT REPRESENT TGC

YOU ARE NOT MY CUSTOMERS

I DO NOT GET PAID BY TGC

I'M ENTITLED TO MY OPINION AND BEING A MOD WON'T STOP ME POSTING IT

Seriously, you lot wonder why there's no moderation here.


Van-B

Put away, those fiery biscuits!
Torrey
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 10:26
FPSC - First Purchase, (and) Spoil Creations

Quote: "i think 90% of people know that making money is very hard,i bought it to put my ideas into a working model.........my gripe is that when i bought it,it was advertised with elements that it no longer has in the finished version.
i have no intention of making money from it,or starting a "company",just for fun,but it can no longer be used with my ideas.
and for vanb to say that they are abondoning us because we have abanded the product makes me feel that tgc attitude will kill off fpsc very quickly."


It sounds like you were a little impatient to get this product like a large portion of the people on this forum. Use this as a general rule of thumb:

If you've never used or done what you plan to do, in most cases it will be different then what you've originally thought.

This will be true for most things in life, not just software products.

Van B
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 10:32 Edited at: 15th Dec 2005 10:41
Quote: "for vanb to say that they are abondoning us because we have abanded the product"


At what point did I say that? - I said there's nothing that can be done for those abandoning FPSC, am I supposed to beg them to stick around or something?


Van-B

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JimB
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 10:38
I totally agree with Van B people are entitled to thier opinions yes even mods.It is so easy to misunderstand a flippant remark on forums I suppose this is why emoticons were created

I suggest people take these little quips with a pinch of salt they are not representative of TGC's view of customers I'm sure,after all like other company's they need thier customers.
tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 10:59
i agree that everyone has an opinion, but position in a community requires that you should be more tactful.
@torrey: it was advertised with ladders when i bought it,the ea had ladders....they are no longer a part of the package.it did not make any claims that elements would be removed..since ladders play a big role in a lot of games then i assumed they would stay in the completed version.
i was working on a model of the nostromo from the movie "alien",without ladders then the idea is dead.

@van b.sorry i just assumed you represented the tgc as you are a mod ,moderating their site,you said you would abandon people because they abandoned fpsc.....people abandoned it because they felt mislead and let down....the title of this thread.
maybe tgc could spread some light here.
@jimb: a pich of salt,im not in a bad mood or being nasty...im just passing on the fact that i spent about £50 on dbpro...whatever 3dws costs....£30 on fpsc....before these i bought dbc and cartshop. .
therefore im entitled to an opinion also
from this day forwards i will treat all mods as non tgc representitives...but to be told by a mod how tgc work and inside info could mislead people into believing they are.

jimb..so noone misunderstands my post..
Van B
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 11:09
The reason why I might know a little more about FPSC is simple, I beta tested it, it's written in DBPro, and I've been coding in DBPro for years - that's all.

It's not like TGC even tell their mods what the plans for FPSC are, if they did then I'd probably have said something by now - I just know that they're not forgetting their customers, it's just time constraints that are making things much worse. What happens quite a lot is that Lee and Mike will have serious debugging sessions, like for a week, it could be the case that one is planned for FPSC, usually these events squash dozens of bugs. The best way to ensure that your own favourite bug is squashed is to make a post about it in the bug section with as much detail as you can.

Ladders are actually really difficult to program, so I think they're missing due to time constraints, hopefully that and other desired features will be addressed too. All I can do is ask in the mod's lounge that Rich gets someone in the know to make a post with some details of any plans for development.


Van-B

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JimB
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 11:37 Edited at: 15th Dec 2005 11:38
thicko (reluctant as I am in using your nick)
I understand your frustration at having a project held up because of the lack a certain feature specially as it was in the EA edition,but because FPSC is still very new I for one hope these will be addressed in the future.
I too have purchased DBC,DBP,FPSC and Cartshop,though Cartshop AFIK is not a TGC product.Regarding DBP I accept the fact that it is a WIP and have come to the conclusion that FPSC is the same,so from my point of view I can either make a project within the limits of FPSC or seek another engine (if thats the correct term).

You've been a bit heavey with the emoticons (takes pinch of salt)
tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 11:49
jimb
i have been lucky in the sense of bugs.
i havnt updated dbpro to 5.8 as the amount of complaints put me off so my dbpro is running fine.
my only gripe like i said is that tgc seem to advertise stuff then it takes ages to finish....i know that a business pointof veiw is get the money asap,but microsoft had that approach and is slowly losing out and has many enemys.now im not saying that tgc is like this,just that somtimes people base a buy on maybe certain elements.

thicko is my chosen name so dont worry about using it....i dont claim to be a great programmer or game designer so i think it suits me....i just couldnt fit " im bloody useless at programming but i enjoy so nah nah nah nah" in the name bit.

what emoticons?????
tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 11:50
tequila goes well with salt
JimB
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 12:00
Well heres hoping we will get an update soon(ish)

Quote: "....i dont claim to be a great programmer or game designer so i think it suits me....i just couldnt fit " im bloody useless at programming but i enjoy so nah nah nah nah" in the name bit.
"


Me too,I'm more on the artistic side (well I think so).
tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 13:21
or news of an update and what they hope it will address.
tpfkat
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 13:25
jimb

is this any better??

the programmer formarly known as thicko.
JimB
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Posted: 15th Dec 2005 14:31
Yeah that'll do ha ha!
incense
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Posted: 17th Dec 2005 14:28
Ok, then how about a scripting manual for FPSC at least? That would help alot. Wouldnt it?
incense
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Posted: 17th Dec 2005 14:30
Is there anyone that can write a scipting maunal for FPSC at least?
incense
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Posted: 17th Dec 2005 14:35
I post and it doesnt show and then there it is out of the blue and by that time I have posted againg thinking it didnt get posted. What up with that? Strange!!! I'll try not to do that again.

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