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Geek Culture / Just how optimized is this?

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silversnake
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Posted: 9th Mar 2003 23:57
My development team and I have been mulling over this for a while...and we are working on making some graphis on par with Halo. I heard some stuff about how well this is optimized so how well could it run Halo-like (thats where we get our inspiration ) graphics and what would likely be the minimum requirements when we release it?
silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 00:07
o well
here is a link to the pic that i was thinking of when i posted...soemthing that looks like this:
http://www.screensavershot.com/misc/halo.jpg
or maybe this:
Oh hell heres a bunch
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/screenshots_library/dir_17/vortal_pic_8574.jpg

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/screenshots_library/dir_17/vortal_pic_8577.jpg

ahhh here is what i was mainly talking about:

http://www.realidadalternativa.com/pc/previews/Halo/ss01.jpg


Well anyways tell me how well i could run this,
and rest assured my team CAN make models like that and I can learn all the shaders, so my main concern is speed. Thanks for your time.

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 00:10
Um.... can't tell you how it would run until i've seen the program design.

You may want to make an exact duplicate of a game, but there is a big difference in performance between a beginner and a well thought out highly optimised piece of code from a veteran.

I always take the view that anything is possible until proven impossible, so far I have never proven anything impossible in DB.

I have half written a strategy game with 1 million AI's and run it without slowdown, I could make another strategy game with lovely polished graphics and just 2 AI's and have it run at 5fps because of i'll conceived design.

Work out what you want to do, and then work out what you need to do to make that possible.

So yes, you can make a dead clone of Halo if you want. How? That's another question.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 00:20
Alright. thank you. And just for ur info, im not making a clone of Halo at all...i was just implying that that was the LEVEL of graphics i wanted to acheive. So...I could do that with DB? Ok, lets assume I really optimzed it real well. What would a min req be (considering a release date of Christmas 2004 - Early 2005)??

Kangaroo2
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 00:38
Oh hell yeah DBP on a GOOD system with a GOOD programmer and a GOOD 3d/texture/lighting artist can out perform HALO easily. Its just hard to get to that level of skill I'd lke to think I'm more than halfway there tho

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silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 00:41
Ok...very glad to hear that Considering that I learn pretty quickly how long would it take me to get to that level to be able to write a game and an engine that has graphics like that? Also, we are not doing a Halo clone, but sort of a horror game a la Aliens vs Predator 2.

John H
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 02:26
Halo would take quite a long time, depending on the amount of staff you have working on it.

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silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:02
Funny. In another thread you said it was not possible so now it is? I really want to believe it is possible so please confirm this. I have a team of 5 or 6 people. That enough?

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:30
being possible all depends on EXACTLY what you wish to achieve ... however with programmers you can never truely say anything is impossible.

you can say it isn't likely - because really a project with the Ai & Physics of HALO isn't. But it is possible with dedicated individuals.
Problems is, if you don't have faith that you can achieve it - there isn't a damn'd thing you can do to make it reality. It's all about pushing yourself and your creative coding to the next level to achieve your goals and not care what anyone else thinks.



Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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silversnake
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 03:58
Thank you. That's exactly what I needed to hear.

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 06:44
Let me put it to you this way.

I would be suprised if you achieved your target on time regardless of what Raven says, but that is not to say it is impossible. Having said that if I set about achieving those results with the right support team to match my skills - yes I could do it.

However the fact you ask the question suggests to me there is little coding experience in the group - or do you just meen little experience with DB Pro?

The fact is it takes a few weeks to learn to program, but about 2 years to learn how to fully exploit any given development system and understand every nuance.

Then there is the issue of sitting down and doing the grinding work, how much time do you have available - full day every day being funded? (you need me on your team if this is the case, samples can be provided! ) or working of an evening.

Some people are naturally fast at developing software, because they've routines stored or memorised or artists that have base meshes and large texture directories to assist in rapid development.

If however, you are doing things for the first time then results will not be fast.

Optimisation of code is something that comes from having used the tools before, to fully optimise a DB program you are going to need the experience of having written several completed programs, prefferably programs that have related elements (you want indoor environment, write some indoor 'sampler' games - you want multiplayer, write some multiplayer 'sampler' games....).

Is speed important?

Well the average commercial game takes something in the region of about 300 man years to develop, and you've a team of 5 or 6 people.

To write a finished shareware product of half decent quality takes a monumental effort, because instead of 100 people you have a handful and even though you are sacrificing some quality for development speed in shareware - you are still taking about reducing the development time by 99% and you just cannot make that big of a sacrifice on quality (as an example: Jetpac was written in 4 man days - and I meen 'days').

Despite all that I still say it can be done. You have got to make a very serious commitment though, and be experienced enough to have the resources to draw upon.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 10th Mar 2003 22:32
I agree with all that is said above.

If you want me to put it realistically, I'll try from my perspective.

I've been programming games professionally for about 15 years, mostly 2d but have been doing 3D via DB and BB for nearly 3.

If Microsoft came to me and asked me if it was possible to accurately convert Halo to DBPro (lol never gonna happen) I'd tell them this:
1) If I was given the original source code, sound files, texture files, models etc. It'd take me a year, by myself.
2) If they expected me to do everything myself from scratch with only an XBox and Halo as a guide, I'd need three years to get results I would be pleased with.

Now thats three years, working FULL time on it, so obviously theyd have to pay my wage for 15 hours a day, seven days a week. If they wanted me to do it in my spare time, like I usually do my programming, that'd be one hell of a long time. Fully possible, but very very very time intensive.

Obviously with a team behind you that time would decrease, and if you didn't need the AI to be so high, or to have a reliable multiplayer side, it'd maybe half the time

Anyway, if by quality you meant just the graphics, yes all effects there are either available or damn near emulatable to an almost untraceable degree

You should be able to make a very impressive game comparitively quickly with DBP, especially if you are a creative and skilled modeller and texturer. Just don't expect miracles. People who expect miracles should buy http://www.the3dgamemaker.com and then hang their heads in severe, severe shame at the shambles of a game they produced in twenty minutes lmao

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silversnake
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:03
I have no intention of making a game in that program. I'm not THAT much of a newb. You see I actaully am a coder (but not a great one yet). I am simply new to the language and I am not yet familiar with it. I can make websites with my eyes closed and i even managed to make a primitive windows app (NOT A CONSOLE APP) in C++. So I'm not a total newb. My team and i intend to spend as much time as necesary and the release date is the old standard "When it's done." Don't worry though. I have the feeling the nice guys/girls on the forums (like u people) are gonna be a great help (u already are). You will be mentioned in the credits and I will even go so far as to give you a demo which is closed to the general public. You can expect a mostly playable demo in about 6 months. Thanks everyone.

Demonzero
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:11
Hi, I am on the "Halo Team" (Though we are NOT making Halo, we just want the LEVEL of a game)
We do have a dedicated team of about 8 people that are willing to work hard on this. We realisticly expect a release date of 2006, but we are willing to deal with that. We DO need some help though. Even with 8 People we could not really do the AI and Physics programming alone. If anybody out there is an "Experienced" programer that would like to help with this project, then PLEASE contact me. Though as of now this would be "Charatible" programing, your commitment is bound to pay off as soon as this game is released. And I am not talking about a Shareware or Freeware title, we are making a real RETAIL game. So contact me at info@abkdj.com
Thank You!

silversnake
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:22
I am the de facto leader so you can also email me at silversnake05@hotmail.com Please include all vital info
u know...location, age, talents, why u want to join,etc.
Have a good one.

silversnake
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 01:45
Man I am not thinking very clearly today. You can also contact me by AIM. SN is carjackermike05. I'm on right now up from about 4 to 9 every night.

Kale
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 02:31
Quote: "Oh hell yeah DBP on a GOOD system with a GOOD programmer and a GOOD 3d/texture/lighting artist can out perform HALO easily"

don't kid yourself! this is a high level programming language and not C!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 02:44
Kale... it could ... if you happen to have a C++ programmer who wants to make DLLs and has a good 10years experience developing within the 3D Medium.

however i'm sure the odds of that are astronomical to say the least

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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silversnake
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 02:50
What the hell is a DLL??

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 02:55
I would not go as far as saying you would need a .dll programmer to achieve those results, although it would doubtless help for some tasks.

To explain it simply and in a DBPro context, a DLL is a program written in C++ that gives you extra functions or commands for DBPro.

However, the bit about 10 years working in 3D - well lets not argue over the number of years as we all learn at different speeds - but yep that about sums it up.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 03:02
well DLLs would be essential for getting the assembly in for certain tasks and extending the engine access for certain effects (suchas Projected Texture Mapping)

i said 10years cause none of the guys on bungie have less than that, it is a very seasonsed team
that aside, i think this topic took a turn for the worse with the "What the hell is a DLL?"

sorry to say but the odds have just doubled

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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LLX
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 07:13
"What the hell /is/ a DLL." i know what id does but what the hell is it, its not a self contaoined program, its not a add on as every windows pc has tons of them, just what /is/ a DLL

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 08:11
a DLL is a Direct Link Library... which is essentially a compiled program which doesn't use a executable front to initilise and can be accessed by any program as if it was part of its own program.

thats the laymans explaination (^_^)
i'm sure if you want a nice little essay on it with all the technical crap about them with the fancy jargon, gimme 20mins and i'll write one

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 09:05
lol sorry but this is starting to grow tireseome...

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 09:59
DLL - contains functions that are created in a language (usually C or VB or somming). These functions can be 'called' from within programs.

In nearly all VB progs for example use a DLL set the cames with Windows (and you can d/l the latest ones too.)

DLL's mean you can have a standardised way of displaung data for example. It just means that time can be spent working on one libary rather than loads of spereate ones.

Making DLL's for DB means you can get the same control as in C++ in DB/DBPro, but it is a lot harder to achive.

Well, thats probably all wrong.

Over to Raven to correct me

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 10:33
it's a fancy include file ... there isn't much more to it really - if you understand what an include file in DB is then you understand what a DLL is.
Nothing special about them really

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kale
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 14:44
Quote: "Direct Link Library"


sorry thats wrong, the acronym stands for a 'Dynamic Link Library'.

Quote: "
Short for Dynamic Link Library, a library of executable functions or data that can be used by a Windows application. Typically, a DLL provides one or more particular functions and a program accesses the functions by creating either a static or dynamic link to the DLL. A static link remains constant during program execution while a dynamic link is created by the program as needed. DLLs can also contain just data. DLL files usually end with the extension .dll,.exe., drv, or .fon.
A DLL can be used by several applications at the same time. Some DLLs are provided with the Windows operating system and available for any Windows application. Other DLLs are written for a particular application and are loaded with the application.
"


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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 16:23
er yeah Raven - your slacking there I understood it to meen Dynamic Link Library too.

Although I think Devils Lusty Les.... would have been nicer - Microsoft can't get anything right.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Mar 2003 23:12
yeah my bad... god knows where i got Direct from - i musta been reading something at the time.
and yes there is the technical description - but i mean seriously it is just an #include file

i kinda wish DarkBasic Pro got its own form of DLL, so that we could make library code which is compiled and can be linked ... run from either the directory or from Windows/DarkSystem or something that'd be cool

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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The admiral
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 05:19
halo uses plains and 2d stuff for their bullets in the game halo...cheap....
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 05:30
whats your point Odd? ... when you have a choice between 50x 32polygon mesh for say and 8sided bullet and 50x 2polygon mesh, with a smaller texture size, what are you gonna choose?

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 11:19
lol this is my point exactly! The fact that Halo uses 2d effects to produce 3d looking ones in CLEVER not a cop-out. Its exactly what I was saying in the other post - 2d plains are an excellent way to add nice effects to a 3d game without wasting resources on extra 3d - And nobdy notices! Its genius - and also hillariously funny that when some1 comes along and tries to reproduce it in DBP goes straight for 3d highly complex shading lighting and particle effects, and wonder why their game jerks like hell on a P4 3Ghz Machine lmao

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 13th Mar 2003 17:23
Why make more work for yourself?
Just do the minimum you have to in polys/code/graphics/textures
to achieve the effect you want...
It's the knowing in advance just what this theoretical minimum is that takes experience + it's differrent with every single program.

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The admiral
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Posted: 14th Mar 2003 22:40
Well i presumed since it was such i high graphic quality game they would have made the weapon effects another way...also i presume since its on x box it would be pretty fast.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 02:28
and that presumtion is the most major problem that alot of the amature developers have today. if you can do something without a dessernable loss of detail within the graphics , then thats what you do.

best effects at the cheapest cost.. allows you to spend more processor power and detail on more importan aspects.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
The admiral
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 10:17
yeh u say withought a noticeable loss in detail but the 2d sprites are noticable and do look cheap so they could have used particles or something and it would look way better.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 10:34
odd... you said you couldn't tell the difference - to me i can see that they've used sprites, but you reckoned that it was a mesh.

The textures within Unreal2 are just the most outstanding your likely to see in any game because Antony is a damn'd genius within photoshop... i don't think you understand how oftenly artists cut down details and rely on textures more.

Even in CGR animations, we don't use entire scenes with 6billion polygon models ... infact you might be interested to know that most of the character models within Final Fantasy : The Spirits Within were around the 10,000 polygon mark.

and if you think thats alot, goto a 3D Site sometime as most amature artists will spend upto half a million polygons recreating the same level of detail.

if you can shave off the polygons and detail for texture - YOU DO! there is no question, because we can't use KraySGI machines in our living rooms!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
n3t3r453r
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 10:52
WOW!!! He use MS-Windows and he don't know what is DLL! I can't believe my eyes!! :/
May be you were sleeping during your school lessons?

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 12:43
"u say withought a noticeable loss in detail but the 2d sprites are noticable and do look cheap"

ROFLMAO

A minute ago you guys were praising it as some incredible example of how 3d should be done - now that you here its made with 2d effects you are dissing it and saying you can tell - lol @ u ya dyam foooool

hehee j/k no offense of course Just stop being so niave

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 15th Mar 2003 15:59
it is trying somedays isn't it Sam
:: rubs temples ::

i get the feeling this is why no one believes anything they wanna do is possible with DarkBasic Std/Ehd/Pro

hehee - i do think this'll keep me amused for hours

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Kangaroo2
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Posted: 16th Mar 2003 16:10
lol nevermind, at least some of them may go on to learn and do great things Then again maybe not lol

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Ian T
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Posted: 16th Mar 2003 21:53
Mmmmmm... I do think some good DLLs would be needed to get Halo-quality preformance in DBP. But it sure as hell ain't impossible! DBP is a high-level language, but it's the best one for 3d. I wish I could say what I know from the DevNet... hehe... wait and see, guys

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