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Geek Culture / Is DBP worth my money or should i stick with DB??

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MikeS
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2003 06:49
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I think now might be the time to buy DBP.

The Character FX add-on(don't know if it's worth anything though)

A new patch for DBP should help the bugging problem.

What do you think??

P.S.Does anyone know anything about Character FX?I've checked there website, posted at their forums, but still don't know much.
-Clans of our Galaxy Delayed-
-Galaxy Championship in the future forecast-
As soon as I get webpage we will find out more.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2003 06:59
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Personally i think the less you know about that product the better ... but some people like it. (god knows why)
if you've already got Max or Maya, etc... don't worry about it, just let your eyes gloss over when people talk about it

DBpro is certainly a good investment though - i mean if you don't have DB Enhanced, then really shouldn't even think twice. if you do then, well its upto you - personally i'd wait until patch5, or if you can find someone with patch 3.1 grab that instead of 4.
to be honest although 4 is alot faster, there are so many inherint problems with the fact of DBO being added (but personally i don't think it fully finalised) ... there are alot of teething problems, strangly they're problems don't remember hearing about from the Beta of it - but then it wouldn't run certain code in the Beta that it will in the Retail.

the fact that, that whole last paragraph is a little hard to follow may explain why aleast for the Asprin count you take why you'd wanna stick with p3.1 or DB 1.13 enhanced

but still the choice i upto you

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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MikeS
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Posted: 2nd Apr 2003 07:03
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I'm thinking DBPro just for the fact that I've had DB for a little while.

DBP seems to have much more multiplayer functions, and I think thats where I'll be going into the future "multiplayer games."

Character FX I still don't know what that is, buy It's probebly something I could use, and if not Milkshape is always here.

Thanks for your input.

-Clans of our Galaxy Delayed-
-Galaxy Championship in the future forecast-
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 00:04
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I have found serious compatibility problems with db standard exes on many of my newer pcs, especially in 2000 and xp, so if you are developing for other people to play as well as you, pro is a better option.

Plus the dll handling and speed and extra effects are more than worth the extra cash. Just don't expect to be able to migrate your old DBC programs to DBP easily, just use it for new ones

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
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Simple
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 02:20 Edited at: 5th Apr 2003 02:21
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QUOTE:
Personally i think the less you know about that product the better ... but some people like it. (god knows why)
if you've already got Max or Maya, etc... don't worry about it, just let your eyes gloss over when people talk about it

All I can say to you is DON'T TAKE ANY NOTICE OF A WORD HE SAY'S ABOUT CharacterFX .... cos he don't know what he's talking about

CharacterFX is VERY easy to use - VERY easy to set up your models in - VERY easy to animate with - and is VERY DBpro friendly.

I doubt you've even used it to it's full extent Veggie ?? It's far less complicated to use than Max for example..... especially for someone who is new.

Yellow >> if you want to know a little more about it then click on my Logo and goto my tutorials page.

You thank Raven for his imput... but it's more just output !!

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 03:06
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oh i'm sorry Simple... i forget you're the one who's been animating 3D for years isn't it - i guess thats my old age catching up with me again, i always seem to forget you know more than me in this field.
i mean you are the one who does all this 3D malarky for a living isn't it!

yes it is a less complicated product than max, on the surface that is - but really when you get down to it, its the same bloody thing ... just far less developed. And quite frankly Maya's Animation engine is far better, and Animation:Master is even better.

But still even to the beginner setting up a skeleton and animating within Max is a piece of piss - setup bones, setup the weight envelopes, keyframe ... then add kinetics, more weighting and properties to objects if you want more realistic movement. if you find max hard or complex then i'm surprised you ever learnt to animate within Milkshape.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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DangYankee
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 03:15
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Quote: "if you've already got Max or Maya, etc... don't worry about it, just let your eyes gloss over when people talk about it "
My only beef with Max,Maya,Rhino,Brice5 .... IS THE PRICE , I know you get what you pay for , but don't forget most here can't really aford them.

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
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Simple
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 03:31
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Yeah, if we were even talking about animating with Milkshape that is. Like I said, you don't know what you are talking about.

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 03:38
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i know... which is why i said it how i did (not that some others around here ever pay attention to my words).

personally i think $3,200 though for Max5 is a joke to be honest, especially as Combustion 2 is the same again!
but i think its bloody good that Maya 4.5 Complete is now $1,200 and student price is only $480 - which is less than Max4!

i know this is still alot for most, but then thats why you get Milkshape - but its seems like for certain people around here the features in Milkshape just arn't good enough for thier needs ... which is a shame, because its not the tools at your disposal that make you good or bad at something - its putting in the effort to product something with what you have at your disposal.

if someone took away Max, Maya, trueSpace, SoftImage, etc away from me - told me i had to use nothing but 3DCanvas ... sure i can sit here and bitch about the fact it doesn't have all the features i'd like, i mean hell i do that with the products i use now - but it wouldn't stop me from producing the same level of artwork i do, because i wouldn't look at it as a heap of crap with none of the tools i need and to go looking for something just as cheap - because each program has its own little quirks that once you get used to you'll find can product the same results, albiet not as quickly or efficiently but the same results none the less.

anyone who is ever serious enough to actually get into any of this stuff DarkBasic Programming or Milkshape Modelling, etc.. should learn from the get go that you don't have a professional array of tools at your disposal - you have the bare basics and you produce what you can with them. If you're not willing to accept the limitations and work with them then why are you even bothering to work in these programs in the first place?
unless the tool is physically incapable of doing something (example of Milkshape and Rendering) then thats when you goto another product ... however it isn't incapable of animating and exporting to DB/DBpro 100%
so why use another product?

Simple has Max ... if he is always looking for programs to achieve better results it oftenly baffles me why he never uses the actual professional tool at his disposal for anything other than rendering scenes - it seems silly to me. Yet the programs he uses never seem to be good enough and find others which are basic to use and produce better results with less human effort involved - a very sad tale if you ask me.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Simple
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 11:46
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Well, everyone has there personal preference.... and my personal preference are Milkshape for low poly modeling - Unwrap3D - CharacterFX for animation.

Yes I have Max ( and I can't stand it ) which is why I only use it for renders and sometimes limbed anmations. And as soon as I have finished learning Cinema4D's tools, then I won't even use Max for renders. ( even then it's the Brazil renderer I use )

The software I use is sufficient for my needs... and more than sufficient for producing models for use with DB/DBpro. I'll be producing some very high poly work soon ( but I'll be using Cinema4D for that ) because I prefer that software to Max, Lightwave, Rhino etc.

SO... at the end of the day >> it all boils down to the individuals personal preferences of what software they should use ( NOT YOURS ) if Yellow wants to learn how to use Milkshape or CharacterFX ( and it looks like he does ) then let him.

Those programs will be far easier for him to learn... and he will get any DB projects he may have, off the ground a lot quicker and with less fuss.

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 12:15
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unfortunately the decisions people make now will affect them later on down the road...

for you its oki because you're an old man with DB as a hobby, for some they want to see this as some way of learning about games development and perhaps like a few others here actually break into the smaller professional companies.

you should start how you mean to go on, and i think people get obsessed with thinking that Rome was built in a day and their games should do too.
it'll be a far better experience to learn about these tools now (if he has them) and learn howto work around thier quirks rather than making his life as easy and simple as possible.
yes this is mostly about personal preferance - but do you seriously believe if i had a choice i'd work all day in Max? you think i particularly like it?

if all you ever care is fast development times, and working with programs you'll never have a problem with - then how exactly can you learn to cope with problems later on when you don't have a viable 100% solution to a problem you face? ... you won't, you'll hit that rut and you'll be stuck there and it is more likely you'll give up on a project because there is no clean cut way because this is how you've been brought into that medium and shown howto use it, rather than getting tools and such which don't nessarily make your life simpler or easier, because that way you learn the most important lesson you can learn in programming/3D/2D or anything really and thats learning to work with what you've got to the best of its abilities.

you're less likely to give up something if from day one you've learnt the art of work arounds, you'll be more open to sit down and actually think of a problem than screaming "this is impossible! i give up."
which is the major attitude around here if you notice ... they don't like something most members give up or ask everyone else to help them do thier work.

you want a good example of this pure laziness, checkout the Pixel&Vertex Water Shader post in the DBpro forum - it is sickening to see people who don't really bother doing much in the way of trying to achieve something themselves and go for the quick fixx. I mean most people here are learning to be programmers, how the hell can they learn a thing if they're handed everything on a silver platter!

CharacterFX and Poser are in my list of programs that are just for the lazy and inept users. No self-respecting artist would touch them, they'd learn to achieve the results they want within the program they use!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Simple
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 12:32
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LOL !

Why pump water by hand if you have a tap next to you !!

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Xoid
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 13:20
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for the sake of argument, use all the software packages that way he will get experience of each of them

Do not anticipate the outcome of the engagement, let nature take it's course, and your tools will strike at the right moment - from "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" by Bruce Lee
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John H
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 15:49
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Hey uh simple,,,If you dont like Max5 I'd be glad to take it off your hands

I love milkshape, I think its a great deal for the cost of the money, and I cant wait till the next version comes out, because I am SURE I will buy it.

Hey Simple, could you tell me where do get (buy) Unwrap3D?

Now, back to subject. I currently own Dark Basic (unenhanced, too lazy to install it ) and I ordered Pro and CFX on wednesday. I cant wait. After reading about pro for a while (here and at RGT) I decided "OK, time to stop being lazy and order!" So, in the end, I suggest getting DBpro, because it is a lot better than Regular DB, and it is still in development!

RPGamer

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Simple
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 16:24
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Just goto my website ( downloads page ) you can get Lithunwrap v1.3 for FREE... or follow the link to Unwrap3D if you would prefer the Updated version.

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

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John H
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 16:31
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Yes I have LitUnwrap, Ill go check out unwrap 3D

Thanks

RPGamer

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 16:35
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Well I like max just fine, but that's 'cos I started off with rend386, then povraytracer v1.0 for dos where you had to code a text file to set up just basic shapes, then finally found some software called imagine, which was bloody great for the time, then truespace 1.0 , which I loved for it's cool input and fullscreen method of working (quite novel at the time) , but then I was handed Max v1.0 on a silver platter, by someone who'd bought lightwave, and the plugins really made it worth giving up truespace, besides truespaces' renderer was pretty bad in those days... Still, max's renderer is very samey, but then, I only upgraded as far as 3.1, and that's where I'm stuck for lack of funding. In the end, if you want to model something, you can do it by entering coordinates in a text file if you have to, but it's not a very creative way to work So if it's that or even a very basic modelling package with a gui, get that.
Very interested to see how milkshape 2 goes

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 16:46 Edited at: 5th Apr 2003 16:51
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its so remarkably simple to create a basic modelling program in DBpro i'm actually surprised no one has yet ... so many 3D World Makers and Matrix Makers etc, but no modeling programs (well i know one but not the same as trying out someone else work)

i'm quite invested in how Milkshape2's final form is developed, more so on the reaction of people who use it more than anything - but i'd still like to see some sorta modeler in DBpro

[edit-]
Quote: "Simple - Why pump water by hand if you have a tap next to you !!"


because you'll build stamina and you can get more water out quicker with more effort ... plus it easier to understand when things go horrible wrong what went wrong and simpler to fixx them.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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Simple
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 17:08
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QUOTE:
because you'll build stamina and you can get more water out quicker with more effort ... plus it easier to understand when things go horrible wrong what went wrong and simpler to fixx them.

Then we just get back to personal preference. The only difference here being >> I don't try to force my preferences onto others all the time, unlike yourself

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Rob K
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 18:46
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"A new patch for DBP should help the bugging problem.

What do you think?? "

I think that the problem lies with the people, not the code. DBS needs a change of ethos in regards to its code. With other languages, there is normally a very structured architechtural plan for it with analysis on how changes in one area will affect other aspects of the code, and efforts are made to unify as much as possible. DBS have FINALLY started to do this with Patch 4, but will it continue?

Current Project: Retro Compo. Entry.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 20:34
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if thats what you believe Simple, then obviously you only read what you want to and not what is there.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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DangYankee
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 22:04
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"oldman" why I outta ... " I perfer middle , err early middle years!

It's not the size of your code but how efficiently you use it!
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Wayne
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 22:42
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I'll take Max. It's just what I learned first, so I'm great with it. I think DBPro is worth the money. But I've had DB for a while, so I may be giving a biased onion.

Never stop in the perseverance of knowledge.
The Key to life's secrets is on that road.
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John H
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Posted: 5th Apr 2003 23:03
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Just get DBpro

RPGamer

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heartbone
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Posted: 6th Apr 2003 00:36
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DBPro is worth the money AND you should stick with DB.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 6th Apr 2003 14:32
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Personally I like Lithunwrap better than the newer unwrap 3D - dunno maybe its just cos I'm used to it

Coming Soon! Kangaroo2 Studio... wait and quiver with anticipation! lol
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Simple
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Posted: 6th Apr 2003 19:16
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Kangaroo2 .... Unwrap3D is exactly the same program as Lithunwrap, made by the same people and with exactly the same features.

Except Unwrap3D has a few more added now... like face mapping, camera mapping, and unwrap faces + an auto texture updater and a few others too.

It's actually easier to use than Lith. it has fully customizable shortcuts + most of the main mapping options are onscreen now ( so you can map at the press of a button )

But even though it is easier to use than Lithunwrap.... it is still the same program. So why you prefer the older version rather than the newer one is beyond me.

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

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MikeS
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Posted: 6th Apr 2003 21:45
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Thanks for your input

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Apr 2003 00:08
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Quote: "simple - made by the same people"


(^_^) made by the same person, and he has a name ya know

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Kangaroo2
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I KNOW its the same program, I downloaded the demo from the official site so thats kinda hard to miss I just find new short cuts round things and other features complicated it for some1 who already used and liked the old one. You're speaking to someone who couldn't use Paint Shop Pro 4 for years cos he was used to 3 remember Us old fuddy duddys get stuck in our ways

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Shadow Robert
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these pension pushers just arn't quite as astute as they once were eh Sam?
why i remember a time when they... (-_-) z z z Z Z Z

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Kangaroo2
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lol thats right I was just saying to the grandson the other day that... (-_-) z z z Z Z Z

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Danmatsuma
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(-_-)ZZZzzz *hic* !(@_@)! WHA?!! where am I?

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Simple
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So he has a name "Brad Bolthouse" I decided not to use it ( so what ) Also Veggie, you seem to think that keep saying something about my age ( 34 ) will wind me up.... how wrong you are. ( just means I'm a MAN and you are just a BOY )

Maybe you are intimidated by that

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Raven Vegeta
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Come on peoples, let's stop this fight, everyone knows that Ravens' messages is about 99% out of spot and poorly written. we also know that he is unpolite and he never has anything to show up but talking ( with exception of that poor rip off "Legend of Zelda" logo he made a short while ago with the wand tool in photoshop and was so proud of using a copyrighted name and claimming it being his... ). He also designed ( thinks he did indeedly) Lara Croft Classic and the new Angel of Darkness and made all models in C&C Generals... he knows what he is talking about, in his little tiny fantasy dream world Just ignore him . He deserves it.
Simple at least has nice stuff he made to show up... he's not only talk as u Raven... chill

Watashi wa Eletronic Arts de shigoto o shimasu!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Apr 2003 17:57
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Nah! cause as my dad would say simple (^_^) "i got a bigger willy than you!"

... so where was i, oh yeah. Back then of course we wore garlic on our pocket watchs as was the style at the time. But of course that was before the invention of the mule... well with my lucki hat i decided to take the ferry over to west london. the ferry back then wasn't what it is now, it was just a small boy on a raft that we had to beat with a stick to keep moving. At this point i'm looking over the river and what did i see but... (-_-) z z Z Z

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Simple
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As per usual Veggie is gimbling out of his ring piece

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MrTAToad
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I think we should have a 'Be Nice To Raven Day', on the 29th of Feburary...

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Shadow Robert
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lol... yay only another 385days to go

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Kangaroo2
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That sounds like a good idea. He deserves a break once every 4 years

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samjones@kangaroo2.com - http://www.kangaroo2.com - If the apocalypse comes, email me
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