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Dark GDK / DarkGDK : V1.2 - dropping Visual Studio 6 support?

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 19:22
Quote: "The VC6 IDE is horrible. I recently had to go back to it at work (to fix some legacy code), and I had forgotten how nasty it is, (I need my intellisense )."


You should have a go at VB6's IDE, then... now _that's_ nasty. And I still have to use it every single day at the office!

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Briere
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 19:30
The VC++ 2005 Express compiler is far better than the VC++ 6.0 Enterprise.
scooby bloke
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 19:36
Luckily, we don't have a single line of VB code in our stuff, but I know what you mean. Nasty
CattleRustler
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 20:51
Quote: "Luckily, we don't have a single line of VB code in our stuff, but I know what you mean. Nasty "


I presume you mean VB6?

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LeeBamber
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 21:12
Well it seems we have 100 votes for 'die' and 1.5 votes for 'live'. VS6 is currently shaking in a corner of the office, looking very certain of its fate! I will leave this thread a few more days before deciding. In the meantime I can soldier on with the VS2005 update. Also, the name has already been changed to GDK, so there is no debate on this point. I could state lots of reasons why the name was changed, but the only one that impacts your own developments is that you will need to change DarkSDK.h to DarkGDK.h, and change 'S' to a 'G' where-ever you have a DarkSDK or LoopSDK function call. Other than that, your projects will compile as usual, with the benefit of being built from the new U6.X version. No news yet on the DevC front. In fairness to reducing our own workload, we are looking for promote the use of the free C++ Express edition of VS2005 at first, and see what results from that before putting specific effort into additional C++ compilers.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Jul 2006 23:58
So, will you be starting the update soon ?

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 00:23
Quote: "I presume you mean VB6?"


I am sure he does mean version 6's IDE, yes. Later versions of VB use the same IDE as VC and C#, right?

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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 00:39
so did 6, and I am talking about vb6 code "being nasty"

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Miguel Melo
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 01:40
Sorry to disagree, but VB6 _did not_ use the same IDE as VC6 (or J#): It was the last version of VB that did not have a unified IDE with the other languages.

Some of the dubious highlights of this IDE is the non-existence of a Breakpoints window (yes, you have to search them through the code), the loss of bookmarks and edit positions when you close and reopen a project, the "syntax checking that pops up a dialog (!!!) as you type" (that is on by default, but thank heavens can be disabled), the hiding of sourcefile metadata (i.e. open a .frm file in notepad and you see tons more stuff than on the editor), variable watches that are only current-function by default (e.g. add a watch for "counter" in function foo(), break into function bar() which has "counter" too, and you get a "unknown symbol"), compilation stops at first error so if you rename a global you have to find and fix usages one at a time and many others. Just dreadful.

As for the language itself, we've talked about it in the past... it's good to knock up form stuff and old-fashioned code, but a pain for any data complex stuff due to no inheritance and structures being value types.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 02:11
Well.. Thankfully this is no longer the case with VB.net then

Paul.


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CattleRustler
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 03:32
Quote: "VC6"

oh, I misread then, I thought of vc++


every time I come into this thread I feel like I am in the twighlight zone.

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 10:22
Do it! Drop the support!

Here are my reasons why...

1) A directx 9.0c sdk has been released for free at the devpaks repository at www.devpaks.org! And it is only 6.2mb!!!!!

2) Dev-C++ is free, visual studio costs money, now then, if you have to pay for both dgsdk (sorry, dggdk) and visual c++, what do you think the customer is going to do? Well, why i'm not getting it is because i'm not going to be visual studio or visual C++.

3) There would be more time and energy to spend on it as you said, plus, dggdk needs to be in more active development, as i have read around...

4) I'll buy it then.


Sorry if that sounded rude, i was just excited.

This next version will support dev-c++ though, right?


NOTE: I havent fully read all the posts, the second i saw this i wanted to give my opinion.

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APEXnow
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 11:51 Edited at: 11th Jul 2006 12:08
I believe that there is still confusion over what the strategy is for the upcomming development of the newly named 'DGDK' (DarkGAME Development Kit)... Lets all be clear on that first point.

I don't think that support of the DGDK will be directed towards the Dev-C++ or more specifically, the GNU GCC compiler. This requires alot of changes within the source code to manage the differences in the standard runtime library of both GCC and the Microsoft compiler. Also, function mangling is different under GNU, although can be forced using a .def file to comply with a MS mangled function. Reason I brought this up because the DGDK and DBP are split across multiple DLL and LIB binaries. If the internal communication between these modules is based on mangled naming, it would be more work and time to adjust the source to compile under the GNU compiler. I'm hypothesizing that there is a mechanism for initialising the different modules within the engine, since each of the DGDK headers have a common set of functions for passing the GlobStruct around etc.

I do not see why people cannot use the Visual Studio C++ Express version with the PlatformSDK installed for writing native Win32 applications. Don't misunderstand me though, I very much enjoy using the GNU GCC compiler under both Dev-C++ and Code::Blocks. Both formiddable development tools. But ask yourself this, how long are you prepared to wait before the next update is released. Lee and Mike could spend more time getting the DGDK up in line with 1.6 by providing support for the Microsoft development tools.. Express and Pro.

[EDIT] My point is this... Don't deny support of GNU GCC, but prioritise getting a new version of the DGDK out ASAP, and then think about support for the Open source compilers after.

Paul.


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IanM
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 15:00
If Lee and Mike get everything compiling cleanly in VC2005, then it will make it easier to port to Dev-C++ later ... I'm not sure that there's a point in doing that, seeing as VC2005 is free and the IDE is better anyway.

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Kentaree
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 17:09
IanM, it's not about the IDE, its the compiler. There's a wealth of compilers for MingW out there, such as Eclipse which I use personally and in my job.

Briere
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 19:06
I dont know of some people think that by using DevC++ you can make games that will run on non windows systems, but you can't since DirectX is a window technology.
y2ksw
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 21:52
I still use VS6 and intend to do so unless newer versions of development environments are 100% bug free and some very critical issues to .NET & Co have been solved.

I believe, the critical issues will be fixed within the next 5 years, when the new OS will be released and the .NET features are used massively, but until then nobody can convince me to migrate from a system I know perfectly well, to something I have serious doubts about

If VS6 support would be dropped, I would stick on the supported versions, no matter what cool features would be offered on future releases.
scooby bloke
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 22:31
You can use VS2005 to compile non .NET (native) applications as well as .NET stuff. The natively compiled code is just as secure (if not more so) than VC6 compiled code, and it definitely runs significantly faster when the optimizations are applied. VC6 is no longer supported by Microsoft, and will have no further updates, (for security or OS updates). It simply does not make sense to continue using it when there is a perfectly viable alternative
IanM
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Posted: 11th Jul 2006 23:22
@Kentaree,

I know it's about the compiler ... both G++ & VC2005 claim great C++ standards conformance, but despite that, each will compile code the other won't. It will be easier for Lee/Mike to convert in small steps by staying within the Visual C++ family of compilers though, rather than try to jump into a different compiler.

Also, why support more than one free compiler? If you get the code to compile in VC2005, then why even bother taking the step to a completely different compiler when it won't necessarily mean any more sales, and introduces a whole new set of problems when getting the correct DX libraries?

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 08:20
http://www.devpaks.org/details.php?devpak=136
That is the site to go to get a DirectX 9.0C SDK working fine with Dev-C++, and at a download able to be downloaded with dial-up. It contains all the necessary DirectX libraries for Dev-C++ (That i am aware of). So I don't see why it wouldnt work with DGDK once it's finished. So, i'm pretty sure it won't have a problem.

As for VC2005, Maybe it should stay, but make this compatable with Dev-C++, as I don't much like products from microsoft besides Operating Systems, and Game Consoles/Games. Though DirectX doesnt count as a product for me.

True, they may have more time for VC2005, but what about those already familiar with Dev-C++? Those who dont want to make a switch from Dev-C++ to something else entirely? Besides, Dev-C++ has Dev-Paks (Templates and Code for projects that can be installed), and i'm pretty sure VC2005 doesnt, but if it does i'm wrong.

My point is this: I don't care what you do with VC, but add support for Dev-C++, please.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 10:09
And then your relying on a third party to make sure that during the conversion process nothing is changed - nothing added and nothing taken away.

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IanM
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 10:24
That's one point I was trying to make. The other was why support two free compilers when one will do?

It is not quick and easy to get low-level VC++ code to compile under G++, especially when using something like DX, so it costs time and money to do ... for no benefit except that a few people won't have to switch compilers?

VS doesn't have the equivalent of dev-paks, true. Dev-paks make it easy to install a third-party library, but take away your choices in compilation options - I always built my own dev-c++ libraries rather than lose this choice.

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 11:15
sorry Ian but I can't agree with your sentiments completly but nor can I anyone elses really. The be all and end all reason for support devcpp is that users want it. Forget the percentage of the darksdk user base that want it - COMPLETLY irrelevent. If it supported it none of us know how many of the thousands of devcpp users would become interested in the SDK which make the current figures completly void - could be huge loss or a huge profit. You can't just throw statements like "a few users ..." around because its a complete guestimate Products are made for people. People want different things. The developer tries to cater for as many of these things as possiable. If devcpp is visable option in the future (its obviously not high priority) then only a muppet would disregard it "because we already got one free compiler". Scale it around a bit and before you know it you'll have walkers crisps only making ready salted flavour because "well, we already got one flavour of crisps, everyones going to like it right?"

Butttttt, on the other side of the coin completly I cant agree with the oposing sentiment simply because you don't buy something for the first time knowing it doesnt support what you want and then demand support for it. Right now devcpp users should not buy the sdk, its that simple. They should only do it if they are willing to move to visual cpp xp. Its a bit different if you bought something that DID support something and then they removed support for it because theres a large possibility of several people buying something specifically for one key area of support. Seems to not be the case with vc6, or at least if it was everyone is willing to move to vcpp2k5xp without complaint

But yes, support the devcpp community if you want their custom - if its not a big factor right now then dont. but do NOT tell them what software that they should use because its presumptious and 100% the individuals choice that should not be forced on them. I should be able to code in notepad and use a command line compiler if thats what I wanted - but as I suggested before, if that was what I wanted I wouldnt buy the darksdk until it supported my method of coding. But I would certainly give an odd look to anyone who told me that I should buy the sdk regardless but change to their way of coding wether I liked it or not

Kentaree
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 12:02
@Briere: Yes, I'm fully aware of that.

@IanM: Point made, however, I think it would be greatly beneficial if the product worked on a free compiler, which download size is less than 5 megs, rather than one which is 120megs.

I haven't used VC2005 a lot, but from my previous experiences with the Visual Studio products, especially 2003 it's slow and bulky, also, if you want to do anything with the free version, you have to download the platform sdk which is another 100+ megs.

scooby bloke
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 12:19
Quote: "The be all and end all reason for support devcpp is that users want it."


I don't. Having used both side by side, I can honestly say that vc2005 with all optimizations turned on produces quicker code than devc++. Surely that's especially important where games are concerned?

Quote: "If devcpp is visable option in the future (its obviously not high priority) then only a muppet would disregard it "because we already got one free compiler"."


Trouble is that if you have your fingers in too many pies, you'll eventually get burned. The more compilers you support, the more complexity you add into the product, and so the greater the risk of problems (and an associated increase in support complexity). There is no technological reason why DevC++ should be supported, just because of the opinions of some users. If TGC can advertise this product properly, get it working with the vc2005 free edition, and demonstrate how well it works, then no sane developer would hesitate to use it. Those people who refuse to use MS compilers out of principal are the muppets imo. Surely it just makes sense to use the best tool for the job in question, regardless of who makes it?

Quote: "But yes, support the devcpp community if you want their custom - if its not a big factor right now then dont. but do NOT tell them what software that they should use because its presumptious and 100% the individuals choice that should not be forced on them."


Well, they are being forced to use a Microsoft operating system, and a Microsoft SDK, so I don't see a problem with specifying that they use a Microsoft compiler as well. Not saying that DevC++ should be supported in the future, I just don't see it as a priority, and besides, it does quite clearly say in the requirements list on the website that it requires a MS compiler.

Quote: " I should be able to code in notepad and use a command line compiler if thats what I wanted"


You can do that quite easily with VC2005. You don't have to touch the IDE at all if you don't want to.
scooby bloke
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 12:28
Quote: "I haven't used VC2005 a lot, but from my previous experiences with the Visual Studio products, especially 2003 it's slow and bulky"


The VC2003 IDE ran faster on my machine than VC6. It also had less bugs. VC2005 runs even faster and has even fewer bugs. Yes it is a large install, but that is mostly for the .NET stuff. The cpp native compiled code it creates is small and efficient.

Quote: "if you want to do anything with the free version, you have to download the platform sdk which is another 100+ megs."


So what? The platform SDK is actually very useful and gives you access to loads of stuff inside windows which otherwise would be hidden (or hard to get at). A 100mb download isn't that large these days, for a development kit. I just downloaded the dev kit for my GP2X, and that weighed in at 90mb, (and that doesn't need all the directx / windows stuff).
IanM
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Posted: 12th Jul 2006 15:06
Quote: "a few users..."


Did I say that somewhere?

Anyway, my point is that you can't support every compiler that comes along because there are too many of them. As a developer you are forced to choose the ones that provide the best ease-of-porting to supportability to sales ratio.

It gets rapidly to the point where you spend most of your time modifying existing working code to get it to compile under a different compiler - I know! It was bad enough doing this for the relatively small codebase I had for the interface library. I was supporting VC++ 6, 7.0 and 7.1, along with dev-c++, and it was easy until I added dev-c++.

TGC are in the same position. They have a VC++6 codebase that now allows 7.0, 7.1 and are about to add 8.0. Dropping the 6 support is a hard decision to make, but I think it the right one, trading one for the other. Adding dev-c++ at this time would just be the final straw.

That's my opinion, but I'm glad I don't need to make the business case for it either way

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 16:40
There are a few very irritating things with VS 2005 - namely, when trying to add a new graphic/button etc, and the dreaded 'Add/Remove function cant be performed' message comes up...

And the on-line help program crashes - about 10 minutes after VS 2005 has closed...

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monotonic
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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 16:43
Quote: "There are a few very irritating things with VS 2005"


I agree, but the main annoyance for me is how slooooooooooow it is at starting up and creating a new project.

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Posted: 13th Jul 2006 17:01 Edited at: 13th Jul 2006 17:02
Thats not really a problem here, its all done pretty briskly here.

What is a problem is the amount of time it takes to get VS 2005 to add the base code for MFC stuff, after double-clicking on a button, or when creating a new window. It takes ages...

The resulting executable seems more bloated too - but then I do use MFC80.

What I would like to see is some updates - VS6 had 5 or so, whilst VS 2003 never had any...

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Aaron Miller
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 07:58
So, what is your verdict Lee? Or do you guys need more time?

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scooby bloke
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Posted: 14th Jul 2006 12:07
Quote: "The resulting executable seems more bloated too - but then I do use MFC80."


That'll be the problem. If you don't use MFC, the exe sizes seem to be smaller than with VC2003 / VC6. I use STL rather than MFC wherever possible. It's much smaller and usually works quicker as well
Sephnroth
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 04:30
rant rant rant

Quote: "
Did I say that somewhere?
"


Quote: "
It is not quick and easy to get low-level VC++ code to compile under G++, especially when using something like DX, so it costs time and money to do ... for no benefit except that a few people won't have to switch compilers?
"


people instead of users, but its the sentiment not the grammer that im drawing a line under. The opinion of one person really SHOULD be as important as the opinion of any. If I have a strange and weird bug with something and I phone the relevent people for technical support I expect the same amount of support for my money as anyone else and not less just because my bug is rare and not encountered by the majority of people - I still deserve it fixed. likewise my opinion on where the software goes in the future should matter as much as anyone elses, MY money paid for it - thats where you choose, do you want my money? and thats what it boils down to.

do you want the money of people who will only use devcpp, even in windows. its not a case of do you want to agree with their compiler choice or do you want to agree with a dislike of visual studio, its a case of do you want their money? will it be enough to cover the cost of what it would take to get their money? is there a gain for you and if not are you willing to swallow a loss of some size for the sake of making N amount of people happy?

That is important I feel, N users. its not a few users (people) or alot or 10 or 100, its N. Who REALLY knows how many people have browsed to the site whilst looking for an sdk, saw it didnt support devcpp, shrugged and moved on? who knows how many people wont bother signing up to a forum just to say they want devcpp support when its likely they wont get it, any time soon at least? I'm not willing to make the assumption and I dont think you should be either.

Some people DONT want to install the visual studio, free version or not, to work with. some people DONT want an IDE that does .net code by default when they wont ever use it. some people DONT want
Quote: "
access to loads of stuff inside windows which otherwise would be hidden (or hard to get at)
"

because they are happy with what they already have. some people just want to work with what THEY choose, not what was dicitated to them because some other bloke on a forum liked the alternitive.

You should never presume to tell people what they should and shouldnt like or "what should be" - you can say "sorry we dont support that :/" but saying "you should use this instead" is a bit of a cheek imho. I know I can use notepad with visual studio - i *like* one major part of 2005 which is the custom build rules, lovely little things. but if i was someone who really wanted to write my code in notepad and then compile from command line I sure as hell wouldnt choose a huge visual c++ suite to go along with my 68k notepad.exe ! heh

I think I should point out at this point that I do NOT use devcpp and never intend to. I would rather use vc6 and, after that, indeed 2005. vc2k5 would be at the top of the list if it had proper resource editing from the resource tree view in the express edition. what im really arguing about here is that I belive I had the right the choose vc2005 on my own merit, not be forced into it. I hate to think that if lee was a devcpp user from the start that I would never of got vc2k5 support! But as I said before, if I WAS a devcpp user right now I *WOULDNT BUY THE SDK* so there should be no problem. only a fool would buy the sdk and then demand support, as i said previously. If the support was there and then removed, sure - but you dont buy something that doesnt do the task you want and then demand that someone makes it do it. But your going to have to face it, devcpp isnt an unpopular compiler by any standard, it has quite a large following. If it can be supported then thats a damn fine idea. Its not quite as bad as trying to convert code to/from the old watcom standard! now that was hell.

basically a really long rant just to say that people shouldnt presume they can tell people what they should do. Lee is in a position where he can tell people what they CAN do, and him alone. NONE of us are in a position to start handing out "shoulds" because its all based on our personal tastes and when you start forcing your taste over someone elses then you've overstepped the mark. Its all a bit pompus to my ears.

rant rant rant

APEXnow
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 06:11 Edited at: 15th Jul 2006 06:11
Quote: " use STL rather than MFC wherever possible. It's much smaller and usually works quicker as well"


I'm not quite sure of the relevance on this statement, besides MFC encapsulates alot more classes for handling windows specific tasks anyway, STL is a template library and is there to provide added support of mundane tasks. Both have their specific areas of design for the task required.

Paul.


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IanM
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 15:36
Quote: "a few people"


Oh, so I did kinda say that ... not that I meant it in that kind of way ... but I'll agree the point

Quote: "do you want my money? and thats what it boils down to"


No. It costs money to support a product. As I said earlier:

Quote: "best ease-of-porting to supportability to sales ratio"


This is supposition and opinion, but if TGC can get the DSDK running on the free MS compiler easier than the free G++ compiler, why not go with the easier option? Ok, so they may lose a few rabid anti-MS developers, resulting in slightly lower sales, but they'll gain because it didn't cost them as much to port to 8.0.

Quote: "Its all a bit pompus to my ears"


I'm feeling the same way ... surely I'm allowed my opinion without you jumping down my throat. You may not agree with it, and that's your option, but don't tell me what I can or can't say.

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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 16:13
Quote: "
Quote: "Its all a bit pompus to my ears"

I'm feeling the same way ... surely I'm allowed my opinion without you jumping down my throat. You may not agree with it, and that's your option, but don't tell me what I can or can't say.
"


heh, tolerant of everything except intolerance. You've done a bit of telling and apprantly so have I, its square. Besides we are both ancient forum members, I feel i've earned my right to the odd rant over time.

I havn't meant to jump down anyones throat, but I will jump on things I think are out of line. power to the people and all that. but, being blunt and streight down the line (not a personal attack just calling it as I see it for clairty) after reading most of your responses on the matter across a couple of posts the whole lot seems to boil down to "I use vc2k5 and I want the bugs fixed in that first thankyou very much, everyone else can wait or go without"


As I use 2k5 I wan't that working perfectly first too but, forgetting everything else, its a mute point because we know it WILL be made to work in that first. theres no need to defend it because its safe. its what is *already* being worked on. as such I don't see the problem with entertaining the IDEA of other compilers.

the best reason anyone has put forward for NOT implementing devcpp so far is that it costs time (time==money). But none of us have, if we are honest, been able to say how much time or how much money it would return. It could be a stonking profit for any of us knows! Do you have the full source code to the sdk? Have you been able to go through it and center out specific problem areas and say "hmm, this is going to take a bit of thinking to make compile in devcpp" and look at the others and say "see no reason why this should work immediatly"? because if you are going to suggest to people what can and can't be done these are the sort of facts you are going to need. Maybe lee is a better coder than he thinks ( ) and has written the most amazing cross compiler code without even realising it! Maybe he's ported it in his sleep and just not found the files on his hd yet! maybe aliens did it - im not going to guess at his job because im not in a position where I can - all I can say is as lately i've been devving for the gp2x more than anything i've been having to write cross-platform code so I can do my testing on my pc - I write my code and test it in windows using vc2k5 - I compile it for the the gp2x using vc2k5 and a custom build rule (uses an arm-gcc compiler) and the same code compiles fine for linux using gcc / kdev. A couple of things required some help from the preprocessor commands but it wasnt that hard.

darksdk is alot bigger than my mere 20k line programs which is why i havnt assumed it would be as easy for them as it was for me, especially as I got to do it from design. but im a little weary about the idea that anti-devcpp people seem to be floating around at the moment, that making a devcpp port might bankcrupt them or something because the sheer amount of effort and time it would take.

pft. I don't even use devcpp --;

CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 16:15


Quote: "Oh, so I did kinda say that ... not that I meant it in that kind of way "

I guess it happens to even the best of us sometimes.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
Sephnroth
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 16:21
he said the same thing again with
Quote: "
so they may lose a few rabid anti-MS developers, resulting in slightly lower sales
"

>.>;

but lets over look that one xD I really have no wish to start a punch up with Ian over this, he's a cool enough guy who is generally usful and spot on. But I just can't agree with some of the sentiment floating around this topic at the moment and unfortunatly for Ian he was the most vocal on it and I didn't want to let it slide.

scooby bloke
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 17:00
Quote: "I'm not quite sure of the relevance on this statement, besides MFC encapsulates alot more classes for handling windows specific tasks anyway, STL is a template library and is there to provide added support of mundane tasks. Both have their specific areas of design for the task required"


I wasn't talking about the gui stuff. I've seen plenty of cases where people are linking in MFC just so they can use CString. In this case, STL is a far better (and smaller) option.
APEXnow
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 18:00
Ah ok, that's fare enough

Paul.


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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 19:05
I mainly use MFC for the Windowing stuff, list boxes, scroll bars etc etc.

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 19:41
Sephenroth on IanM:
Quote: "
he's a cool enough guy who is generally usful and spot on
"

100% agreed, I would replace "generally usful" with "very helpful", but thats just me.

Science, Mathematics, and Physics do not lie - only people do.
MikeS
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Posted: 15th Jul 2006 20:51
I would definitly love to see Dev-cpp support. However, myself not using Dev-CPP for a long time, I won't have as much of a problem switching over to the free Express edition of VC2k5. That being considered, I see DGDK being aimed at newcomers who've used DBP and want to start getting into C++. The choice of IDE isn't as important to me, I just want something that's going to get me up and going so I can learn without paying any extra. So it's really a win win situation as long as a free IDE/compiler is supported.



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
(Formerly Yellow)
VRMan3D
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 05:15 Edited at: 16th Jul 2006 05:37
Hi folks.

I just purchased the DGSDK seeing as it's displayed prominently on the product info pages that it works with VC6.0. Well what a bummer suprise to see that you might (are?) dropping support for 6.0.

Anyhow, perhaps I missed it, but does it or does it not work with the free MS express 2005 edition?

And this is the wrong spot perhaps but while I'm here, how do I overcome the linker error 'Cannot open file "d3dx9.lib"'? I am using vc6.0 and grabbed the 'dxsdk_oct2005.exe' October dx9 which I read somewhere here was the last working version of dx that dgsdk likes with vc6. The d3dx9.lib is definitely in the libs dir and I have the libs dir properly added to vc directory options, still no joy.

I have 30+ cool db and c++ retained mode projects that I've been working on for years and years since 9 years ago releasing the world famous (hehheh - something like 12million downloads) and award winning (it took first place in the VodooExtreme programming contest which I created it for in 3 days!) 3D TidalForces screensaver and others. I am hoping to wrap them all up as DGSDK programs and get them out in to the hands of customers. Any ideas how to fix this problem? Thanks much. Once working I'll upgrade my license to the commercial version.


EDIT Ok I got past my d3dx9.lib not being found above and now it's asking for d3dx8.lib which doesn't make sense to me since that's old stuff. But I noticed some posts about it and the 'extras' files. So I'll try that now and report back. But please answer my first question and perhaps just list exactly which compilers it works with and which you plan on supporting in the future if you have the chance. Thanks much!

Best regards,
-=VRMan=-
Fred Cass
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Zeal
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 06:23
Quote: "I just purchased the DGSDK"


Welcome to the team! Yes it looks like they will be dropping support for vs6, but dont worry, when the new patch comes out you can use the free vs 2005.

All you need is zeal
VRMan3D
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 06:59 Edited at: 16th Jul 2006 07:32
Aha, thank you Zeal. I appreciate the response... Are you a dgsdk developer? I actually don't mind buying vc2003 but to me it seemed like if I was gonna shell out the cash for an updated MS c++ compiler I'd rather get the latest and greatest.

Regarding my compile problems above:
-I finally got it to compile. Your product should really come with a detailed explanation that walks you through the exact steps required to compile one of the samples with any specific supported compiler. I'm no newbie when it comes to C++, I've been developing professionally for big companies like Compaq and NEC and I've been using C++ since waaaaayyyyy back in 1988(?) using Borland Turbo C++ for DOS =) That was the big upgrade from Turbo Pascal that I used to write huge apps for a company back then. Anyway, I say all that to say this: I am very familiar with the woes related to making VC find everything and successfully compile. But it still wasn't easy for me. Please create a forum topic and stick it at the top of the list that holds the hand of people and helps them get up and running. I would not at all be suprised if there are people who have purchased the sdk that just couldn't get it to work and gave up.

-PLEASE somebody tell me that there is a way to get this to compiler in debug mode! One of the most important reasons I decided to order this and switch from DBPro back to C++ is because the DBPro debugger has never worked right on any of my machines. The thought of using the mature VC compiler to step through my massive apps and find problems was a very refreshing thought to me. =) I have spent years now just putting little 'debugging info' functions in my dbpro code that just displays info on the screen during execution so I can track down little typo type errors.

I am now able to compile the dgsdk examples, but if I set active configuration to debug and try to build it says:

dinput8.lib (dilib4.obj) : fatal error LNK1103: debugging information corrupt; recompile module
Error executing link.exe.

Sprite Showcase.exe - 1 error(s), 0 warning(s)

I saw a post regarding this and the moderator said to switch to release heh heh. Is there a way around this? I want to get busy and start converting over some of my huge DBPro projects to cpp but this is really a show-stopper for me.

OH and by the way, the 'Summer Extras' MS download didn't actually fix my d3dx8.lib missing error (wasn't in the one I downloaded, just a d3dx9.lib) - I ended up just doing a search for the file on my hd, and it showed up in my PureBasic libraries directory LOL.

Best regards, thanks for the help, and if you don't like this discussion being in this thread, please let me know and I'll start a new one or move it to where you'd like.
-=VRMan=-
Fred Cass
http://www.vrman3d.com

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Zeal
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 09:51 Edited at: 16th Jul 2006 10:10
Quote: "Are you a dgsdk developer"


Do you mean, am I a member of the staff? No hehe

Quote: "Please create a forum topic and stick it at the top of the list that holds the hand of people and helps them get up and running."


Ahmen to that! Im sure they will be putting up a new 'getting started' sticky just as soon as the patch launches. I had a rough time getting everything configured too.

Quote: "PLEASE somebody tell me that there is a way to get this to compiler in debug mode!"


Fear not! Im compiling in debug mode as we speak (hurray for boost array bounds checking!). Is it not working for you? I dont recall having to do anything special to get it to work on my end.. of course im using vs 2003, what were you using again?

Quote: "I am now able to compile the dgsdk examples"


Theres your first mistake :p. From my experience, the examples are trash, and just plain dont work. I really never found a need for the examples anyway (assuming you have some dbpro experience), everything is EXACTLY the same as it was in pro. If you remeber to add 'db', squish all the words together, and capitalize the first letter in every word, you are a INSTANT SDK PRO ELITE.

*edit - but youre not coming from dbpro eh? Hmm well I would just rely on the help file for now (it lists all the commands and their uses). I have a feeling they will fix the demos when they patch too.

*edit wait yes you are eheh

All you need is zeal
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 13:29
Quote: "PLEASE somebody tell me that there is a way to get this to compiler in debug mode!"

Yes, it should all be fine it debug more (though why you need really need it is debatable) - just make sure all your paths are correct. It does sound as though your using the totally wrong version of DirectX 9.

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.
VRMan3D
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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 17:17 Edited at: 16th Jul 2006 17:22
Quote: "Yes, it should all be fine it debug more (though why you need really need it is debatable)"


Why would it be debatable? This is one of the main reasons I was hoping to leave DBPro behind, the debugger is not very good in dbpro. I need it to compile in debug configuration in VC because if you want to press F9 to set a breakpoint and then press f5 to debug, you have to compile it in debug mode.

Quote: "just make sure all your paths are correct. "

They are as far as I can tell, but then who can know for sure?! The docs don't tell you much, and I don't see any post here that says 'How to set up your directories in VC6.0 to make it work.'. I set them up as I would in a straight C/Direct3D app: dxsdk at the top, dgsdk next, then the rest.


Quote: "It does sound as though your using the totally wrong version of DirectX 9."

I read in this very forum, in this very thread I believe that the October 2005 dxsdk is the latest that will work with VC6. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Quote: "Theres your first mistake :p. From my experience, the examples are trash, and just plain dont work. I really never found a need for the examples anyway (assuming you have some dbpro experience), "


Ok Zeal, thanks for the suggestion. The only reason I decided to walk through the examples is because I read a post somewhere on here by one of the moderators that suggested doing that first. Yes I've written huge DBPro programs, I'll just start writing something new and see how that goes.

-VR

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Posted: 16th Jul 2006 21:02 Edited at: 16th Jul 2006 21:09
Quote: "Why would it be debatable?"

Because you can send text to message boxes, other windows or files for debugging. Debug executables can be different from release mode executables (and introduce extra problems, especially in VS6).

Quote: "They are as far as I can tell, but then who can know for sure?!"

Would have thought it was obvious - point to the Direct libraries and headers, and also the DarkSDK libraries (the VS6 ones) and headers. Just a matter of getting it in the right order. I presume you did look at the "Getting Started" guide ?

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Dont do anything I wouldn't do. But if you do, take pictures.

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