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Dark Physics & Dark A.I. & Dark Dynamix / [Dark Physics License] $60US for non-commercial / $50,000 US for commercial!

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keithml
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 18:54
I hope the "non-commercial only/pay MASSIVE money for commercial" license is not the start of a trend. This seems contrary to the spirit of TGC's products which have always been high quality but easy on the budget. A fact that is very admirable.

Frankly I was floored when I saw the $50,000 per title price to Aegia to actually use it in a product. I think very few people in the TGC community could shell out that kind of cash.

I hope that TGC continues support for other physics options. It would also be nice to actually put the $50K US license fee price on the TGC order page instead of having customers search the aegia.com site for the information.

Keith
OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 18:55
Someone hasn't been reading their license agreements properly...

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Supplying "NO" since 1974...
keithml
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 18:56
Then what does the license agreement cost?
Kentaree
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 18:56
First of all, how many people are actually going to sell games? (Not counting people like jordan stories who try and sell print statements).

Second of all, if you checked the site properly, you will see that if you put in extra features that support the Ageia PhysX board, there's no license fee.

Mike Johnson
TGC Developer
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 18:58
The license fee can be waived if you work with Ageia in supporting the PhysX accelerator. This is exactly what we have done with Dark Physics and as a result we have not had to pay any money to Ageia.

This issue has been discussed in detail in many other threads. I don't really believe it's going to be a problem. If you wish to create a commercial game it is not really such a big issue to support the PhysX accelerator.
keithml
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 19:14
I don't mean to be a pain, since again, I really respect the work TGC does and am a big fan, but this is not what the Ageia site says under "How do I become a licensed developer and what are the licensing terms?" For the free license it looks to me like you have to be a published game shop to qualify.

A quote from the Ageia site states that it is at their descretion and basically not to even contact them unless you have a publisher and some game selling success in the past. Again, this is not very common. Most people here try shareware titles and it is not clear that this would work out. TGC was able to qualify since they are a published game developer. The quote is given below:

"Even for a free license, there is a significant amount of effort from our side to execute a license and provide the contracted level of support after the license is complete. Because of this, we require a certain level of effort or at least experience on your side before we get to the licensing stage."

...

"If you have already shipped some well-known games, or you at least have a publisher for your current project (which indicates a certain amount of progress and potential for success), then you can request contact from an Account Manager to discuss licensing by:"


Keith
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 19:17
It's simple - if your game supports the hardware, you get the license for free. Running with and without the hardware side by side, the difference should be obvious, even to your grandmother (called 'the Grandmother Test'). It's a fabulous opportunity for us to get really expensive software for free.

The liscense cost is more of a trick. Everyone will support the hardware in order to save the money. Ageia will sell hardware, and everyone wins.


Come see the WIP!
David iz cool
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 19:24
so the easiest way to get around this licensing issue is to make a small demo of your game which might be one simple room without physics & your full game with physics which will require a physics cpu to run???

this sucks!that means the only way people can buy our games is to also buy a completly new pc,i cant upgrade to a physics ppu because i have a laptop.i wish i had read that license agreement better,i might not have gotten dp.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 19:24
Things are not quite as complex with Dark Physics as I doubt anyone is going to be needing support from AGEIA and will instead be talking about things over here on our forums.

They realise that all of us ( TGC included ) aren't in the same league as all these major companies they deal with so I believe it is going to be a much simpler process.

The license as it relates to Dark Physics is:

* The AGEIA PhysX™ SDK is embedded into Dark Physics, created by The Game Creators (TGC)

* Endusers who purchase Dark Physics from TGC can create non-commercial games with PhysX™ support for no additional fee

* If an enduser wants to commercialize a game, they must complete a standard license contract with AGEIA

* PhysX™ -specific support is through the AGEIA Public Forum (and through TGC)

* DarkBASIC Professional and Dark Physics specific support is handled through TGC

If you really are serious about selling a game then get things set up and talk to AGEIA about it. Before doing that it might be wise to think about the best use of time. Do you really want to be talking to them without having anything to back up what you're doing? It might be better to get something set up at least and then show them what you're doing and start dealing with them to set up a license.
keithml
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 19:56
I appreciate your replies Mike. For what it matters, Dark Physics looks really cool. Please bear with me just a little longer.
I am not concerned about the support end. TGC has one of the most responsive forums I've seen. I would think that TGC would like to make sure it is clear to the TGC end-users about the prospects of using this product for anything but non-commercial products. Making games takes a lot of time and effort without the potential pitfalls of "gotcha" licensing.

It would be nice if there was a clear warning about the Ageia Licensing OR BETTER a change in the published policy of Ageia to support small projects and shareware type distros.

I'll agree that very few games are actually finished, but for those that do and make Dark Physics an integral part of there game, I hope disaster doesn't await them.

I hope you don't mind me voicing my concerns.

Keith
Takis76
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 20:08
I didn't understand ,

When I finish one game (some day) in the future with DarkPhysics engine and If I want to sell it , I need to pay 50.000$ to Ageia?

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 20:09
Highly, highly doubtful. Whether they would be around at that time, is another matter

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Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 20:19 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2006 20:21
Originally, I would've agreed that the licensing system isn't clearly stated enough when you buy Dark Physics. However, I'm fairly convinced now that it doesnt really need to be stated because its not a problem.

Seriously, if the developer is capable of using Dark Physics and DBP to make a complete game with a certain level of commercial quality, the he should be capable of approaching Ageia for a license. Ageia are aware us small time developers can't afford 50k, and there is no benefit for them to turn us away. If they dont let us release our game, it's lose lose on both sides. If they do, its win for you, and win for them as they get publicity. The reason why they'll allow excemption from the 50k is because you game will have a menu option to enable hardware support which increases the physics action and improves game play (which really everyone SHOULD be doing anyway if they want to make a decent product). That's what gives them their publicity.

If you don't have a publisher or a company and just want to flog your game on your website with a paypal buy option, it might be hard to talk to them. But seriously, how much money are you going to make? And how legal is that? Are you going to be declaring your earnings to the tax man? If you've made something that people will actually buy and might make you a bit of money, you should be able to secure a publisher or at least start up your own official company to do the job yourself. At that stage I believe Ageia would be prepared to talk to you.

Personally, I think this is perfectly reasonable. All these developers have ideas of grandeur, making a cool game and selling it on a website with no publisher or company and raking in a nice bit of pocket money from imaginary marketting and people who are desparate to throw their money at them. That just doesn't happen. If you want to sell a game and make some money, you need to do it properly, and even then success is difficult. But at least if you do it properly, I believe Ageia would be very receptive.

Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 20:27
Quote: "this sucks!that means the only way people can buy our games is to also buy a completly new pc"


Why? How does supporting a piece of hardware _if they've got it_ equating to 'has to buy a new PC'?

Did you actually read any of Mikes messages in this thread?

Quote: "i cant upgrade to a physics ppu because i have a laptop.i wish i had read that license agreement better,i might not have gotten dp."


How many games do you have lined-up, all polished off, ready for sale? Seriously, I'd like to know. This license is no major revelation, we've been discussing it on the DBPro board for months now, well before DP went on pre-sale. Fallout has the right idea, read and listen to what he's saying above, it's spot on.

Bite my shiny metal ass
keithml
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 20:47
Quote: "How many games do you have lined-up, all polished off, ready for sale? Seriously, I'd like to know."


Geez ... pre-owned or new in that shiny shrink wrap?

Good luck guys! It does look like a nice product...

Keith
Takis76
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 20:56
I have computer company and I have licence to create and sell programms , in fact , if you have the language original , your programms original , all your software are original , all your tools , and your models are created or purchased by you , you are able to sell everything you want without company (I thing). Right?

If will finish here , I will give to TGC Company to sell for me

If you put 2 options in your programm , 1 with Ageias support and one other without support the difference is your game goes slower.
Very Slowwww.

So which is the reason to use Physics Library?
If you are not able to use it commercial and your game goes very slow?


I understand , DarkPhysics where created , or not actual DarkPhysics , I thing DarkPhysics library is very good I mean , generic Ageia Physics where created to make people purchase Ageias Physics Processor Card.

And in my Country , there is no one who knows about this card yet and there is no Computer shop who , sell this Card yet.
And here there are very few people who knows about DarkBASIC.

And this card is expensive yet. One kid who wants to play one game , needs one very expensive Graphics card , plus this Physics card. So most people who does not afford this amount of money (200 euros for one good graphic card plus 250 Euros for physics card to play just few games which supports these physics yet).

Expensive to do something that already done with other cards. And other cards make physics.

I thing if I ask my computer parts dealer here about Ageias Physics card , he will , tell me (I don't know this card my friend).


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Richard Davey
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 21:16 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2006 21:18
Quote: "If you put 2 options in your programm , 1 with Ageias support and one other without support the difference is your game goes slower.
Very Slowwww."


Why will it go 'very slowwwww' ?

I don't have a PhysX card in my PC, yet I can run all of the demos with no slowdown at all, and I can slap a hundred particles into my game, with 80 x rigid body colliding bullets, and a large exploding nebula, running at hundreds of FPS.

So again, what's with the 'slow'?

There are so many completely untrue and just totally wrong asumptions about this product it is unbelievable.

I'll agree with you that the cards are expensive though

Bite my shiny metal ass
Omikron
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 21:29 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2006 21:35
As an independent who's been using DarkPhysics since the hour it was released, I can guarantee ye all that this doesn't run slowly under software emulation (without an Ageia board) at all.

Infact, it runs ludicrously smoothly (you should see the cloth manipulation shenanigans)!

As for the licensing for extra features, i'll tip you off from where I can see it - you could use a command to detect whether an ageia board is present and if so you can multiply or introduce new levels of visual happennings in the game (not interactive elements that would affect the difficulty of the game, more just amount of eyecandy)

Anyway, I'm off to bounce two hundred objects about randomly at 80fps sans additional hardware!

Fallout
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 21:54 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2006 21:57
Sorry guys. Another big whinge.

I think some people are under the impression that when you make your game, and you make it to run on the hardware. Then, people who don't have the hardware end up with a game that runs at 2FPS. That is completely true. If you are intellectually challenged enough to make a game that ONLY supports the hardware and ONLY runs in hardware mode, then indeed your game will run at 2FPS, it will be rubbish, people will call you names and you'll lose all your friends. And rightly so.

Ageia don't want you to make a hardware only game. I'm sure they'd be very happy if you did, but they're not imposing that rule. All you have to do is make your game so that the level of physics complexity can be increased with the presence of a PPU card to make a substantially noticable difference. i.e. It runs well with cool physics on the average PC, but has even cooler physics on a hardware enabled PC.

At this point if that doesn't make sense to you and isn't totally clear, the probability of you having the brain cells to actually make a good game is a million to one. So you might as well conceed defeat anyway.

In my opinion, if you're going to make a commercial quality product, you need to aim at a broad market to be successful. That means plenty of options to change the complexity of the game to make it run on as many compos as possible. For example, the ability to switch shaders on and off, or real time shadows, or reduce/increase the number of particles, change screen resolution, change texture size etc etc. Even in software physics mode, some peoples compos will be able to run 20 ragdolls simultaneously and other peoples compos will struggle with 10. To make a balanced product for many systems, you'll more than likely want to have a selectable max ragdoll count, or ragdoll life settings etc.

The hardware mode setting would simply be an extension of that. When the user selects hardware mode, you can ramp up the ragdolls, ramp up the rigid bodies, make everything collide, smooth out the forces etc. If the idea of having to add extra code to support the hardware and increase physics complexity is too much of a headache or ball-ache for you, then you have to ask yourself if you're the sort of person who's got the right mind set to make a commercial quality game anyway.

Tactics
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 22:08
Ok so tell me if I got this straight... Say I dont want to go through the trouble of gettin a publisher, I want to sell it myself, throw on a copyright and sell it via a website with paypal.. If I include an option to switch it from Aegia Hardware mode or Non Aegia hardware mode, I dont need to worry about paying additional fees for a 50k$ license?
Takis76
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 22:44
Quote: "
Why will it go 'very slowwwww' ?
"


If fact things are not very bad.

In GeForce FX 6600 256 DDR2 without PPU hardware installed yet.

The Bridge Demo. With Shaders I had 7 frames only.
Without Shaders and Reflaction and Shadows I had 35 Frames.
Not bad , but the scene was not very complex with full of castles
building , 1000s of ragdolls and full of particles yet , cloths and one totally destruction effect with fires and dynamics.

Was only one very beautifull bridge with one very beautifull black ball with reflection.

But in this case I have a great Idea.

You will use some part of physics with Physics Library , and I you want to create other less complex , you are using for example DarkBASIC normal mapping for your shaders. Are very fast.

I have screenshots to present.





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Takis76
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 23:02 Edited at: 3rd Aug 2006 23:10
Quote: "
How many games do you have lined-up, all polished off, ready for sale? Seriously, I'd like to know...
"


I agree with this , but , I plan to have at least one lined-up finished game some time in the future...
If I will have a killer game , polished off and ready for sale.
You will know it and we make business.

I am a very happy castomer and I like everything here and I have said it again in the past.



Even now I am very happy this DarkPhysics Library. Because all people here we love you and support this great company and we discuss interesting things and Ideas in these forums....

Thank you...

Many people here have finished their games. I don't know if they want to sell their games!!

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keithml
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Posted: 3rd Aug 2006 23:20
Tactics wrote:

Quote: "Ok so tell me if I got this straight... Say I dont want to go through the trouble of gettin a publisher, I want to sell it myself, throw on a copyright and sell it via a website with paypal.. If I include an option to switch it from Aegia Hardware mode or Non Aegia hardware mode, I dont need to worry about paying additional fees for a 50k$ license?"


That seems to be the question. From what I can tell from Ageia's licensing FAQ your chances with this kind of set up of being granted a commercial license from Ageia would be pretty slim. You'd just be too small of fish to deal with. Unless they change their written policy (or if their written policy is just to scare people off). I'll probably get flamed for saying this though ...

Currently cringing in anticipation,
Keith
Tactics
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 00:02
I am not going to pay 50,0000$ to sell my game with physics using Dark Physics, and I am not going to use up my time to "CONVINCE" them to give me a commercial license. Especially with Newton's Physics available to Dark Basic Pro users.. I would have hoped there to be a clear statement that "Promote our hardware, and u do not need to pay for a commercial license." I still have Newton's physics library for dark basic pro. It is still attainable to the public via http://www.walaber.com Now, to spend 50,000$ to sell my game with physics? Or keep what I have and use newton's physics library to sell a game. WITHOUT an additional cost. Hmmm... NO BRAINER?? I am not tryin to flame, I am actually really eager to use Dark Physics, I will probably purchase it just for personal use, but as much as fun as game making is, having a little fun is not my only purpose of purchasing something like Dark Physics, I would like the option to sell it as well. I would like a chance to sell without going through publishers and crap, all to obtain a damn license. Id rather use that time to enhance my projects. THATS WHY I WENT TO TGC IN THE FIRST PLACE! I have yet to do the research myself, but I am sure there are a lot more benefits of Dark Physics than Newton's library? (besides hardware support) Frankly, if it is indeed so difficult for someone who is out to develop a game (whether it becomes a best-seller due to new ideas etc or not)to sell using dark physics... and that person was me, and I pre-ordered??? Omg, Id be so pissed... So, please tell me I am wrong? Id like to know if I should use newton or Dark Physics, to sell a commercial game.
Omikron
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 00:10
Quote: "keithml: ...too small of fish to deal with..."


Don't worry about it. We are just hobbyist minnows in the great river of things.

Anyone who tells you different is just talking crab! (and don't believe the red herrings)

Fallout
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 00:21
@Keith and Tactics

I think you're probably spot on there. It's not in Ageia's interest to pay a staff member to spend a week going through your game with you to make sure its meets their performance requirements when you're just going to put it on your website and sell 20 copies. It doesn't make business sense for them to do that because they pay a guy $1k, and are very unlikely to get even 1 sale of a PPU as a result of your game being released.

I can see how it might bother you that you might be cheated out of your £100 (for example) profit because you can't legally release the game because Ageia won't give you the time of day. But what's the point of selling it really? It's a very half hearted persuit. For something you're just going to stick on a website and flog via paypal, it can't be a great game. In that circumstance I would suggest either going freeware, or trying to polish up the game/product to a high standard, and doing it properly with a company or publisher approach. I can see why tool developers sell via their websites because they have a niche market they are appealing to, but if you're a game developer you need to get it out to as many people all over the place as possible, and need flexibility.

I think it comes down to Dark Physics is perfect if you want to make freeware games. Dark Physics is probably (not confirmed yet, but I suspect it is) perfect if you want to make a go of a decent quality commercial game. But Dark Physics is probably not suitable for half-baked pocket money game development business ventures, because Ageia probably wont give those ventures the time to allow them to gain the free license.

keithml
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 00:26
Quote: "Don't worry about it. We are just hobbyist minnows in the great river of things.

Anyone who tells you different is just talking crab! (and don't believe the red herrings)"


Yes indeed Omikron, sage of the rivers and seas, yes indeed ...

Just hobbyist minnows swimming in a liquid physics world looking for that higher FPS ...

Minnow,
Keith
David iz cool
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 01:23 Edited at: 4th Aug 2006 01:24
Quote: "I am not going to pay 50,0000$ to sell my game with physics using Dark Physics, and I am not going to use up my time to "CONVINCE" them to give me a commercial license. Especially with Newton's Physics available to Dark Basic Pro users.. I would have hoped there to be a clear statement that "Promote our hardware, and u do not need to pay for a commercial license." I still have Newton's physics library for dark basic pro. It is still attainable to the public via http://www.walaber.com Now, to spend 50,000$ to sell my game with physics? Or keep what I have and use newton's physics library to sell a game. WITHOUT an additional cost. Hmmm... NO BRAINER?? I am not tryin to flame, I am actually really eager to use Dark Physics, I will probably purchase it just for personal use, but as much as fun as game making is, having a little fun is not my only purpose of purchasing something like Dark Physics, I would like the option to sell it as well. I would like a chance to sell without going through publishers and crap, all to obtain a damn license. Id rather use that time to enhance my projects. THATS WHY I WENT TO TGC IN THE FIRST PLACE! I have yet to do the research myself, but I am sure there are a lot more benefits of Dark Physics than Newton's library? (besides hardware support) Frankly, if it is indeed so difficult for someone who is out to develop a game (whether it becomes a best-seller due to new ideas etc or not)to sell using dark physics... and that person was me, and I pre-ordered??? Omg, Id be so pissed... So, please tell me I am wrong? Id like to know if I should use newton or Dark Physics, to sell a commercial game"


dude,i am so in the same mindset as u.im getting dps to play with,but when i sell my game i think ill use newton.like whatif i sold my game for 50,000,then id just have to give it all to ageia.
forget that!
code master
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 01:47
Um... I havn't poured throught the license, but from what I see, you don't have to pay $50.00! If your game showcases the hardware in an hardware only mode, then agia will give you the license.



Virtual X
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 01:55
jeez, don't any of you READ? sorry to seem rude, but you don't have to pay if you support the hardware! why is that so difficult to understand! Use newton then, stop complaining LOL!
keithml
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 02:07
Quote: "jeez, don't any of you READ? - Virtual X"


"Readings too much trouble, wait for the movie, your in and out in 2 hours" - Rodney Dangerfield

Seriously, if you follow the discussion above there is a bit of a "gotcha" in the license that requires the hardware support. Not to beat this into the ground, but I'll rehash it. You can use it non-commercial all you want, but if you sell it BESIDES the requirement of showcasing the hardware to your grandmother - my granny could care less - they seem to require a high expectation of profit on the part of the developer to actually give you a license.

Once again, the part of Ageia's license FAQ of interest for those seeking the "free" license:

Quote: "
"Even for a free license, there is a significant amount of effort from our side to execute a license and provide the contracted level of support after the license is complete. Because of this, we require a certain level of effort or at least experience on your side before we get to the licensing stage."

...

"If you have already shipped some well-known games, or you at least have a publisher for your current project (which indicates a certain amount of progress and potential for success), then you can request contact from an Account Manager to discuss licensing by:""


Keith
monotonic
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 02:45
What they are saying is exactly what Fallout said in his previous post they wont give a crappy attempt at a commercial game a second glance, its common sense if your going to produce a commercial game it has to be good, something has to make it stand out from the crowd.

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
Tactics
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 03:06
So if I add support for their hardware.. Do I even need to bother to let them know about it? Or would I just be able to sell it without anything to worry about.
Mike Johnson
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 10:22
AGEIA are going to set an area up on their site which explains about DB Pro and Dark Physics integration. I believe this will make everything very clear and resolve any misunderstandings. I would expect to see this happen sometime next week.
BatVink
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Posted: 4th Aug 2006 11:25
Quote: "Seriously, if you follow the discussion above there is a bit of a "gotcha" in the license that requires the hardware support"


For F**** sake!!!!

For £29.99, which pays for the integration into DBP, not the PhysX SDK, you have commercial level physics in your game, used by major software houses. Ageia have spent enormous amounts of time making an SDK, for which they get zero return.

Where's the Caveat? They make money from hardware, they have invested a lot of money in development and given you the tools for free. They are giving you the option to release your game with no fees payable to the owners of the technology.

If you really feel so downtrodden by having to add a few extra lines of code into your program (and it is just a few), try taking a look at a commercial license for Havok.

As for the Newton argument, it doesn't stand up. Newton is fantastic, and will always be known as one of the forerunners in the world of DB Pro. However, it doesn't work with a Physics PPU. If all goes to plan, this will be the equivalent of writing a 3D game that doesn't use 3D hardware, which was the scenario back in the '90s. I doubt the PPU will last long as a standalone piece of kit, but it will no doubt be incorporated in graphics cards in the not too distant future.

$50,000 or a few more lines of code, it doesn't take a genius to work it out.





Cash Curtis II
19
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Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 4th Aug 2006 11:44
When I had doubts about the license, BatVink was kind enough to find the information for me. The Grandmother test answered all of my questions. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind about this product. It is absolutely great, and Ageia has a wonderful plan and opportunity for all of us. We now have a powerful piece of software that can compete with Havok, and if we just follow a few simple rules, then we can use it for free. Easy as that.

If Ageia tried to charge indie developers, they would get no money and no PhysX games released. That would make absolutely no sense, as far fewer physics games would be released. They're a business, and it's a smart business decision to allow us to release our games, if we just support their hardware.

TGC has a contract with them. Everyone will honor their deals. And TGC is our support in all of this. This is a done deal, and everyone should stop getting so bent out of shape about it.

I'm going to take full advantage of this opportunity. Those of you who mistrust this deal, sorry for you. Hope you play my game when I release it, because it will be great.


Come see the WIP!
Fallout
21
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Joined: 1st Sep 2002
Location: Basingstoke, England
Posted: 4th Aug 2006 11:59
Quote: "they seem to require a high expectation of profit on the part of the developer to actually give you a license. "


I wouldn't go that far. I think they just want to be convinced your project won't fold and therefore its worth investing their time. If you've secured a publisher, then that's a short cut for them to be sure you're going to have a salable product.

Ideally there would be no license agreement, but I think the reason why we're defending it is because we don't believe in the half baked product. I personally think that people who don't believe they can make a product professionally won't sell anything. I think if you're not at least trying to go to the publishers, market the game like a madman and do all you can to make it a commercial success, then you're not going to sell your game anyway. I think the people who are worried about the Ageia license are not going to make a successful commercial product, because they don't know how to make it successful. On the flip side, the people who have a chance at a successful commercial game will undoubtedly follow the routes that will give Ageia confidence in it.

It is a "gotcha" clause in a way, but in my opinion only for developers who have no hope of being a commercial success anyway.

keithml
18
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Joined: 25th Jul 2005
Location: Florida
Posted: 4th Aug 2006 15:50
Quote: "AGEIA are going to set an area up on their site which explains about DB Pro and Dark Physics integration. I believe this will make everything very clear and resolve any misunderstandings. I would expect to see this happen sometime next week."


Thanks Mike!

Thats all I was looking for. Enough of the speculation. I'm ready to bounce something besides my head off the wall. Virtually of course. In high FPS ...

Keith
keithml
18
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Location: Florida
Posted: 11th Aug 2006 17:42
Mike, I was curious if there was any news about when Ageia is going to post the licensing explanation for Dark Physics? Or have they already - if so could you post a pointer to it?

Thanks,
Keith
Richard Davey
Retired Moderator
21
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Location: On the Jupiter Probe
Posted: 11th Aug 2006 18:10
They haven't updated it yet. Trust us, we will announce it as soon as they do!

"Bite my shiny metal ass" - Bender, Futurama
No pixels were harmed in the making of this post
"Don't ping my cheese with your bandwidth"
OSX Using Happy Dude
20
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 24th Aug 2006 17:22
I presume they haven't detailed the license thingies yet...

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Supplying "NO" since 1974...
Freddix
AGK Developer
21
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Location: France
Posted: 25th Aug 2006 14:40
did someone take a look at the DarkPHYSICS faq in Ageia Website ?

http://devsupport.ageia.com/ics/support/default.asp?deptID=1949
(you must be registered to access this page)

a small note from this page :

Quote: "
Dark Physics is great! Can I make a game with it?

When you purchase Dark Physics, you accept an end-user licensing agreement that covers the AGEIA PhysX SDK license for non-commercial use. That means you can use Dark Physics to make a game or application at no additional cost, unless you want to sell it. In that case, you should contact AGEIA at Devrel@ageia.com, identify yourself as a Dark Physics user, and request a commercial licensing agreement. The license for commercial projects carries a fee with it, however there is a significant discount if your application supports the AGEIA PhysX processor (and, of course, Dark Physics has been designed to facilitate that kind of support). When you contact AGEIA about a commercial license, you should include a description of how your application or game will support the PhysX processor if you wish to discuss a fee waiver.
"


It is clearly mentioned that there is possible "fee waiver" options ... if your software support Ageïa processors... contact them with your game ready and check for a contract with them

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
OSX Using Happy Dude
20
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Location: At home
Posted: 25th Aug 2006 16:19
Seems clear enough...

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Supplying "NO" since 1974...
Freid
17
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Location:
Posted: 27th Aug 2006 00:45
hi,
It sounds like a BAD NEWS to me !
Freid

www.freid.com
monotonic
18
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Joined: 24th Mar 2006
Location: Nottinghamshire, England
Posted: 27th Aug 2006 00:54
Why does it sound bad???

All you have to do to get a fee waiver is add support for the hardware!

I know the voices aren't real, but they have good ideas!
Freid
17
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Joined: 28th Jun 2006
Location:
Posted: 27th Aug 2006 12:55
Hi Monotonic,

Quote: "Why does it sound bad???"

Because i wanted to use dbp+dark physics for some of my jobs, which is doing small applications (small serious games or small 3d programs) that i sell to privates companies or customers (often small amount 100~500 copies or even 1 copy !).
My customers doesnt care at all about dark physics hardware abilities and i wont have the budget/timer to implement special hardware features.
Often we wont have time to get approval or whatever they call that from Ageia and anyways we dont want it !
We're using Flash for doing jobs at the moment and we dont need to ask "Please adobe/macromedia, can we release our job ?".
So far if i understand well, it means dark physics is useless for my case.
Maybe the answer would be to sell us a special 'PRO' licenses (i mean Flash or Director are more expensives) and then lets us a bit more free.
Anyway it seems to me that ageia arent doing the right things to begin a solid standart like swf for example. I hope i'm wrong

To finish i must say that i think DBPro is cool and fun (i really like it), but it has several lacks imho (for my purposes): no web publishing is a big miss, easy print, easy animations and xml data i/o neither.
So maybe it's time to me to stop having fun and try to find something different (well it will be fun too i guess).

Voilà,
please forgive my crummy english i'm just a french dude

www.freid.com
Freddix
AGK Developer
21
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Joined: 19th Sep 2002
Location: France
Posted: 27th Aug 2006 23:05
You know, it does not take long time to get approval from Ageïa ... for my case, with X-Quad Editor, I get an appointement in less than 15 days and all was good. I get a good contract and I can say that Ageïa support X-Quad Editor.
If you make small applications, you can ask Ageïa for a specific contract about not 1 product but about a range of product.
Adding specific support for Ageïa cards isn't difficult cos DarkPHYSICS have direct commands to handle this.
I don't think that making a "Pro" license will be possible ... cos of the way Ageïa handle the drivers/engine within the web.

All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
OSX Using Happy Dude
20
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Joined: 21st Aug 2003
Location: At home
Posted: 28th Aug 2006 00:23 Edited at: 28th Aug 2006 00:25
Quote: "i wont have the budget/timer to implement special hardware features."

I think its all covered by the plug-in...

Quote: "no web publishing is a big miss, easy print, easy animations and xml data i/o neither."

You cant web publish executables - the alternative is to use WildTangent or Flash. Everything else is easy to add...

Come to the last Unofficial DBPro Convention (http://convention.logicstudios.net/)
Supplying "NO" since 1974...
keithml
18
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Joined: 25th Jul 2005
Location: Florida
Posted: 29th Aug 2006 00:34 Edited at: 29th Aug 2006 00:35
I have been away a bit waiting for the Licensing to be elaborated. Call me foolish, but this was something I was concerned about before purchasing and committing time to developing with Dark Physics.

I assume the wording quoted by Freddix on the Ageia site is the revised wording. Is this correct? I suppose it is a bit better. It doesn't state one needs a "publisher" in this one and from what I can tell you can contact them BEFORE you commit huge amounts of time into a Dark Physics related project to determine if you will be able to actually sell it with the waiver. This would ease my mind.


It would be great if someone at TGC could verify this:

Can Dark Physics purchasers contact Ageia for a license and fee waiver with a PROPOSAL for a program or does the program have to be substantially finished before approval can be sought?


Hoping to be able to PhysX soon,
Keith
Freid
17
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Location:
Posted: 29th Aug 2006 08:31
Quote: "Quote: "i wont have the budget/timer to implement special hardware features."
I think its all covered by the plug-in..."


I know it has the commands to manage the hardware, but it means buy the card (not a big problem), ADD extra gfx and particules, spend more time to tweak...
I dont think the plugin will do the extra work for me .
and i repeat my customer wont care at all !
Well, i'll wait and see !

www.freid.com

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