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3 Dimensional Chat / The Character Model Pot

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halo9
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Posted: 9th Apr 2003 02:04
Hello:

A group of 3D programmers are putting together funds to hire a professional character modeler to produce a fully animated generic human character model. The result will be a high-quality animated figure you can skin or modify slightly to fit any game theme, and use royalty-free in your own games. This is something a lot of people need, and nobody seems to have.

We have $500 right now, and are seeking to get an even thousand for it. If it ends up costing less than that, great, but one grand is a good number to make a goal of. We aren't asking you to pay right now, but if you are interested, and are willing to put in $100, please say so.

We are also looking around at 3D studios and freelance artists. If you happen to come across a good potential hire, please post it here.

Thanks.
Simple
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Posted: 9th Apr 2003 02:22
Who's the modeler ??

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

halo9
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Posted: 9th Apr 2003 03:45
We are also looking around at 3D studios and freelance artists. If you happen to come across a good potential hire, please post it here.

halo9
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Posted: 9th Apr 2003 22:17
Got $600 now, going for $1,000.

The model will be exported to DX9 format, among others, so you can load it up in DBPro and have a boned, fully animated character...something that as far as I can tell, no one has.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 9th Apr 2003 22:51
a generic model to fit any profile isn't alot of information ... and there is alot more work i have a feeling that you guys havn't even considered into this.

Setting up a dynamic UV Map for example would be extremely hard and you'd require a bloody good base from the start. Also you'll need several versions of the same mesh at different levels of detail because you can't expect DirectX9 to do all of the work.

Also DirectX9 Mesh format is identical to DirectX8.1 Mesh Skin&Bone Mesh ... unless you are refering to FVF which is something quite different. (an incapable of animation)

You are also going to need to either know every single modelling package's SDK or will need to look for a modeler within a specific package. You may think its a simple transition between say Maya and Max Exporter SDK's but they handle the data in such different ways with alot of excess data all over the place it isn't the simplest of tasks to get 100% compatiblity and add the more complex tasks suchas weighted bones.

think harder about what you are actually looking to acomplish, because no sensible modeler would dare take on such a task without more information to work from. It's alot of work making something generic and even more work making something which can be altered to other states, perhaps more than your realise i think.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
halo9
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 00:54
Of course there's a lot more going into this than I posted. We are planning on a high-poly (4000) and low-poly (1500) version. By "dynamic" UV map, I assume you mean mapping the skin, which is something you always do for a model. Check out polycount's SDK's, and you'll see they are exactly this: A blank skin, with the triangles mapped out to show what goes where.

Maya and MAX are the two common modeling packages, and both have exporters for the various formats what we need. We are receiving the original source file for further modification. Altering the mesh and rerigging the skeleton IS a major project. However, attaching a helmet or gun to the skeleton is extremely easy.

halo9
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 00:55
And of course, whoever is in on it gets a say in how it is done...no one will get left out. We are up to $800 now. 2 more people and we are good to go.

Cras
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 01:19
weird ppl randomly giving money sorry but im poor
Arrow
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 02:00
Personally, I'ld use that money and buy Maya and learn it yourselves.

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halo9
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 06:03
Maya for $100 would be quite a bargain.

halo9
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 06:50
By the way, this is Josh, the programmer of CShop, and author of some stuff on the back of DB and the 3DGM boxes.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 07:47
maya for $100? where the hell do you shop?
last time i checked Alias themselves were retailing for $1,200 and thats the Complete edition not the Unlimited!

and i know its josh (name gave it away mate lol) - but i'm just saying i'm not sure you quite realise whats involved here.
lets say for arguments sake that someone models the 4,000 polygon model and the 1,500 (which really you'd just take the 4k one and use a mesh optimiser on it then neaten up) ... you'd then skin the 1,500 polygon one, strech the skin on the 4,000 one
no doubt for the basic skin them bake the vertex

you then want to add Nth number of animations, which you'll export as what exactly? because skin&bone DirectX mesh are bloody huge, 255frames and your looking at a good 1MB maybe more...
i mean if i was to embark on something like this, i'd definately want to know alot more about it.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
halo9
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 09:45 Edited at: 10th Apr 2003 09:46
I'm not at all sure what you're asking. One megabyte for a character model isn't exactly huge.

Superbeest
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 10:08
Let him try it Raven, its there money, not yours. And perhaps if it succeeds, you can perhaps use that nice model in your own projects. It's fine by me aslong as I don't have to pay (Cause im very poor, most students are)

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LLX
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 11:27 Edited at: 10th Apr 2003 11:29
I know a good modler who is using Maya to model for my game i could ask him



Danmatsuma
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 13:59
What exactly do you mean by "generic human"? I know either my brother or myself can easily model high poly models of any kind, and have 10yrs+ experience. Perhaps my bro would be better for this at the moment 'cos he has access to xsi on an SGI at his work, but really, Are you thinking to program software that would mutate this generic human into various body types, male or female, (ala "parametric heads" for max), then save that out as a solid mesh? In this case, one skeleton would definitely not be enough, or I should say, one animation set, because as you change the body size/shape, you get different weight distribution etc... let me know and I'll see if he or I can help

PS: The real trouble is with the low poly meshs, which strangely take 3 times as long if you want them to look right from any angle

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halo9
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 20:10
I'm a little surprised by your criticisms, since they are largely incoherent, and you are talking to someone with a lot of experience and knowledge about software/game development.

Any artists interested in a paid job, please email josh@darkbasic.com. Only professional material will be considered, so if you can't show me some video of realistic character animation, don't bother.

We're at $800 now, and once I get everyone's opinions, I'm ready to make an offer to one artist we have picked out.

actarus
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 20:13
Sounds interesting

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour!
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Apr 2003 20:57
the critism is because it really isn't feasibly possible to make a generic model that can be altered ... what you're looking at are several variations of each of the parts using the exact same vertex lineups at the major point taking into consideration the bone weighting and enveloping which can take a long time on its own for a single setup let around the parametrics for several.

unfortunately what you're overlooking isn't the fact of just being able to model this but being able to think about how it should be layn out and gone about.
DirectX is a expensive format both size, rigging and memory conserns.
It's also not a great one for UV mapping which also has to be considered, because the UV Maps would also have to export properly and be basically the same layout and the extra parts that some people have that others done and such.

you're looking at a good 2months of solid work for a professional artist who knows what they're doing, because he/she has to make sure that nothing is particularly setup to acustom a cetain type of people and can be altered quite efficiently.
This is kinda why this has never been done before - because it is just such an understaking people don't realise how much work is invovled until they're actually doing it.

as i said, you really need to explain this in alot more detail, especially if you want someone who can actually achieve what i think your asking of them.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 01:02
Hehe - I could model a character and wouldn't charge $1000. Why? Because you can already download characters for less than that.

Before donating to this generic model project, consider getting Dark Matter which includes several with textures and animations for under £20 along with a load of other models to boot!

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Danmatsuma
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 01:19
I don't think anyone's trying to insult you, just find out more about the idea, to see if it's anything like what we're imagining.

Actually, I thought my post was pretty honest and to the point, simply asking if I was on the right track. As an artist my imagination sometimes runs wild if not kept in check by at least some guidelines... Anyhow, you got your artist lined up so It sounds like all you need is money, good luck with your project.

By the way, some people (especially artists) are willing to work for next to nix (or indeed nix) if they like an idea, next time you could really save yourself and others you rope in some money if you get someone enthused about your idea, rather than trying to lure with cash, in which case if you get a blindly affirmative response, it's most likely to be from some opportunist who doesn't really care about what you're trying to acheive

You can't really rely on money if all you're offering is $1000, I do freelance 3d work, and my brother works in a production house, both of us can make a lot more than $1000 per job, but it's usually something we detest, like for advertising companies or corporate presentations. That's just bread and butter on the table, not why either of us started modelling.

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 05:58
see i wanted to make that point dan about the cash...
i mean without an incentive you'll get those with the skill to achieve this kinda thing solely based on the fact of what it is, but also if you don't give an artist the strictest guidelines what you want can take 10x longer cause our imagination just runs wild and we have a million and one ideas and want to impliment them all (this is why generally we made bad coders lol)

however when you offer cash, it needs to be something people can live off rather than an incentive - i mean $1,000 where i live is just about a months rent, and when people pay money it means they expect results quickly. if you ever check the market oftenly you'll find most freelance artists start at around $15/hour and it rises quite high with skill.

but that aside, what i think your asking is something thats alot of work... even for a professional! so i'd make bloody sure whoever you get or have grabbed knows exactly what they're in for and what they'll be expected to do, rather than an okay amature who thought "ohh money!"

personally if you want a good artist who'll be up for this challenge goto GFXartist.com there are alot of professional, hobbiest and student artists of all ilks there.
You'll certainly find someone who is good enough and willing to take on the challenge there - don't offer the money until they agree though, else the pro's will be insulted

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
KoeYume
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 07:25
you guys might be in luck. I'm crazy enough to make a realistic model, and i have enough free time on my hands to do it

halo9
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 10:30
Email me if you have any examples...josh@darkbasic.com

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 11:16 Edited at: 11th Apr 2003 11:44
Post removed, I don't care.

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LLX
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 12:23
Halo thaits my modler loo kat my post to se a attached model

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 18:52
i'd strongly suggest you check out the link i gave you Josh ... not to sound offsensive, but the elité on that are well in a completely different league.
used to be part of that myself a while back - but i've been away so long i didn't get to votes to stay as part of them. Pitty too cause i had a good gallery.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
halo9
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 21:48
It's going to cost $400 total, so we're looking at less than $40 each.

If you are interested, email josh@darkbasic.com. No one from the DB community has expressed interest yet, so I am not too concerned about support the DX file format. If that changes, I will definitely look into any potential issues that it sounds like the format might have.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Apr 2003 22:02
actually we have expressed an interest... which is why we're asking for more information

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
halo9
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Posted: 12th Apr 2003 00:37
Okay, let's talk about an appropriate file format for DBPro. The artist uses 3ds max. I was under the impression that DX9 was it.

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 12th Apr 2003 02:02
3ds max exports to X via plugin or innate to .3ds which will import again to DB soon (if not convert using 3D Exploration or similar for now). Job done.

I still do not understand the concept of a generic human model, I cannot imagine such a model unless you are modelling pieces and choosing via a software program which go into the final mesh for each project?

Or are you really talking basic modelling here? Nothing specific on it? That don't need to cost you $400. Just buy Dark Matter.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Apr 2003 02:08
well DarkBasic Professional is capable of using any format you choose thanks to the memblocks and soon to be released TPC SDK 1.2 which will include DBO everything will be comverted to FVF anyways on import - so really the format you choose doesn't depend on what is there you can develop it to suit YOUR needs.
when the new SDK hits you can have it import with the 'load object' command which is already inplace or with any other command you want.

you want the animation to use a skeleton you code the skeleton format which can be translated how you see it ... that is the 3D power that DarkBasic has offered since Enhanced was release 2years ago.

a perfect format for use which has the best depth is GLM (Ghoul2) developed by Raven Software... it supports weighted skeletal animation as well as capped limb points to a standard skeleton setup, this makes it probably THE best option for what you're going after to achieve. However the format as it stands is still heavily based on Quake3 format and it would be better to take what is within this format and apply it to another simpler format, suchas FVF/DirectX Mesh format ... if only the LOD mesh are present then thats cool, and what would be even better to use FVF as the base is that users can then use the LOD commands to set the polygon count within the model to thier needs without relying upon an artist to take the count down.

now this format is pretty standard setup, using

dword version (338)
dword byte/vertex (36)
dword numVertex (n|a)

actual data is layed out

float x position
float y position
float z position
float normal x
float normal y
float normal z
dword vertex colour
float texture u
float texture v

you then have a triangled face per every 3 vertex...
so if you're face is vertex 1,4,8 in the editor you'd export those vertex in that order in the data, so the min size of any mesh is 118bytes + header of 12bytes

makes it a very SMALL format... the skeletons because weighted wouldn't have to be attached to the vertex themselves, you want to change the size/height of the model you'd then change the scale of the skeleton and vertex data - making sure to also scale the tollerance and area of influence on the weights of each bone

if you setup the bones to affect each section of the mesh with a tag, add to the header the tag of the mesh you can then have the bones for each section affect that, but making sure the mesh is still a single deal - so you get the effect of a heirachy animation for each section but you also have all of the vertex around also edit the points.

so if you twist the neck only the neck will move + the child limbs which would obviously affect the head, however it won't effect the shoulder vertex even slightly.

(^_^) there is so much to 3d modeling beside the actual development which is decided to accomidate exactly what is to go into a format, you make what you need to produce the results

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Simple
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Posted: 12th Apr 2003 20:36 Edited at: 12th Apr 2003 20:39
QUOTE:
you then want to add Nth number of animations, which you'll export as what exactly? because skin&bone DirectX mesh are bloody huge, 255frames and your looking at a good 1MB maybe more...

Yeah, right !! thats why I have a skin & bone DirectX mesh, 530 frames at 545K.

Acually... what he's asking for is NOT that hard to do, if anything it's easy ( Just time consuming ) and $1000 is not enough for what you'll have to do.

But Veggies the expert and knows everything... so if he say's it can't be done, then he must be right !!!!!! LOL

Spec - AMD Athlon 1000mhz - 256mb DDR - Gforce2mx 400 - 60gb HD - 19" Compaq - DVD rom

Andy Igoe
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Posted: 12th Apr 2003 22:24
For gods sake you two cut it out. I've had enough of your bickering in nigh on every thread and i'm sure others have too. Shut up and get over it.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
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Simple
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Posted: 12th Apr 2003 23:28
PneumaticDryll >> don't read them then... Simple as that

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 13th Apr 2003 01:03
You are right I could leave the forums, but I think thats a very rude thing to ask when it's not even me who is acting to the detriment of the community.

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
Simple
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Posted: 13th Apr 2003 01:17
QUOTE:
You are right I could leave the forums, but I think thats a very rude thing to ask when it's not even me who is acting to the detriment of the community.

So where exactly have I asked you to leave the forum ??

I suggest you read my post again.... it's only 7 words after all !! ... not quite sure how you managed to twist them.

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Cheyyne
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Posted: 13th Apr 2003 06:12
Alright, I'm just wondering... DBP supports use of Half-Life .mdl files, right? Why don't you just use those as a "generic" male model? There's plenty OF them... I just have Counter-Strike, and I know that there are plenty of .mdl files that come up when i search my computer... If anyone wants these files, just IM me, I'll be happy to send them to you, they're pretty generic male models and don't have a lot of faces... They're sorta rough, but run fast. My AIM is DanTheSane. Or. if there's a problem with this... I haven't tried loading them in... Anyone's thoughts? I mean, it's free, you don't have to pay someone to make them, and you can find these halflife .mdl's all over the internet.

actarus
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Posted: 14th Apr 2003 02:07 Edited at: 14th Apr 2003 02:08
For gods sake you two cut it out. I've had enough of your bickering in nigh on every thread and i'm sure others have too. Shut up and get over it.

Doesn't work...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 14th Apr 2003 02:11
Josh, if you wanna talk more about this in a more sane environment my email address's are at the bottom - or i could hope over to your forum.

i may have a guy who's interested in the challenge, though he is just as reserved wanting some more information about what you're actually looking for. But he has a little time to fill between contracts

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Arrow
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Posted: 14th Apr 2003 06:36
Me thinks that this should have been in the Team Request in the first place, thus it should follow the guildlines set up there. Just give us some details, that's all we want.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.

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