Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

Geek Culture / The dumb war

Author
Message
large_nostril
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 09:53
I apologize in advance, but I’m going to refer to the US as we and us since I’m American.

War is terrible, especially this one. Does anybody remember what the war was about? As I remember it, it was to remove the "weapons of mass destruction" from Saddam's power. Oddly enough, we occupy 70% of the country and have found no weapons of such sort. Even though we've occupied the regions in which we claimed had they weapons. In a war, if your country was to be devastated by the largest (or one of the largest) military power in the world, wouldn't you use any means of protection. We always talk about how heartless the Iraqi are because the are going on "terrorist" missions again US troops. (By the way, it's not terrorism to fight back against an invader). But if they were so heartless, why haven't they blown the crap out of us with there nuclear weapons. (By the way, "weapons of mass destruction" originally pertained only to nuclear weapons, then as reports started coming back from inspectors, it related to nukes and chem weapons.) And the US’s cover for not finding the weapons, they’ve been moved to Syria (hmm, I wonder which country is getting invaded next). And when these “weapons” just start “floating” from one Arab country to the next, without any proof, and the US “liberates” their people, who’s going to stop them? It’s just appalling to think that a war can be announced for one thing and then not even involve it.

On all the American news stations, all this looting is being hailed as a rejoicing of the Iraqi's liberation. That's BS, you don't go and steal a 2.3 million dollar tractor and claim it as your own because you want to celebrate. I give credit to non-US troops in Iraq because they are actually trying to stop the looting. I mean come on, Rumsfeld said that US troops stop the looting when they see it. More BS, you see footage of the troops standing there as two Iraqi men carry a 1/2 million dollar rug from the palace.

Just today, they reported finding torture chambers in Iraq and how terrible it was for them to be there. Who cares, former CIA agents have admitted to using torture chambers in other countries that don't support the Geneva convention? Morocco (an ally of the US) has torture chambers. Yet we could care less.

Has anybody here ever read 1984? Well, this catastrophe is synonymous to it. The US media never shows anything even remotely disturbing, you never see any death. We only get reports about how well everything is going. Remember Bush saying that only government and military structures will be compromised in the war, well what about that hotel that the US tank drove right up to and blasted the side out of it, killing 7 reporters. Guess how much coverage that got, almost an entire 35 seconds. And any civilian casualties in Iraq are a result of the Iraqi resistance. All those towns and cities that we’ve bombed, well we’ve never hurt anybody. It’s because of Iraqi anti-missile defense systems that they are using to repel our missiles, but it’s not our fault at all.

If you’ve been watching the news lately, I’m sure you’ve seen the footage of the toppling statue of Saddam. What you don’t see is the Marine that put the noose around the next, first waved a US flag above it.

If you haven’t already determined, I hate the US media. The only news station that I put any stock into is BBC (the British thank you very much).
If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
haggisman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 12:38
Quote: "we occupy 70% of the country and have found no weapons of such sort. Even though we've occupied the regions in which we claimed had they weapons"


Well I did see on the news they found barrels marked radioactive hidden in an industrial site. They also found a large amount of nerve agent as well i believe (and the antidote). To be honest i doubt the soldiers are worrying too much about searching for WMD right now, clearly they are still trying to take control of the country.

btw saying BS as many times as possible doesn't make your case...

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
n3t3r453r
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Nov 2002
Location: Russia
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 13:09
I'm sure Americans'll find the weapon, but I doubt that it will be the weapon of Saddam.

I'd like to change the world, but God doesn't want to give me sources!
large_nostril
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 21:31
"btw saying BS as many times as possible doesn't make your case..."
But it does emphasize my view

"I'm sure Americans'll find the weapon, but I doubt that it will be the weapon of Saddam."
Like I said in a previous post, the weapons'll probably have "Fabricated in the good old USA" right on the side of them.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
Morales
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Feb 2003
Location: - Please Select -
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 21:55
i would say the same thing if dident live in the U.S of A.
everyone could say what they wont to say this is a free world..
......well just in the US.
haggisman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 22:56
This thread is just pure BS. Surely everyone can see you are just nitpicking everything possible. If On the first day of the war they stumbled upon a box of weapon grade uranium, you would probably say it was BS and was planted there as they found it to easily...

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 23:04
Haggisman has pointed out as the news has (or atleast the UK & Canadian news has) that they have found materials which go against the charter which was set.

perhaps not the actual weaponry, but you don't keep bioligial substances around just incase - that goes against the very foundation of the geneva convention ... which the iraqi's have gone against time and time again.

Nostral just shut up about this conflict, as to be honest i'd hardly call it a war. No body wants to listen any longer, your ranting won't get better coverage, it isn't going to stop the deaths.
the Bush and Blair administrations don't care what a 16yo from the US thinks, you don't pay thier wages through taxes and you don't vote.

YOU HAVE NO VOICE ... and complaining to us about it is just going to start pissing everyone here off because most couldn't care less about this because there is NOTHING we can do either.
If the American people are being lied then who really cares? its not like this is the first time this has happened.

even the public no longer cares what happens, the moment is gone and it is old news to alot of people! Just leave this subject to die because we'll be going right through this in a few months time when they move onto the next state they want to harass.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Brent_Seraphim
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Dec 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 13th Apr 2003 23:12
Very Well said Raven.

Ok honestly Nostril...who comes to a Darkbasic Forum to share his views on a war they have no control over? Thats just like me going to a Aethist Forum to discuss Flowers. What the hecks the matter with you? Honestly?

BTW read Ravens post over and over. The war has started and the end is drawing near. All of your whining results in ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
actarus
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 29th Aug 2002
Location: 32 Light Years away
Posted: 14th Apr 2003 02:05
heh they found 270 warhead on their way to test facilities...The chances are good that there IS bc agents and warafare contained in those.

Now when did America used those weapons themselves?

Caught by the Fuzz,well I was,still on my buzz
In the back of the Van,with my,head in my hands
indi
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 14th Apr 2003 06:38
The most evil component to this war thats lasted over 10 years is that the americans have dumped over 500 kilograms easily of radioactive waist in the form of delpleted uranium.

This will disperse in a few million years and 2 companies in secret are slowly cleaning it up.

It took 4 years to flush 4 tanks, can u imagine the cost and time it will take.

The a10 tank buster is one the big culprits.
You can see the ground littered with shells.

It not only creates deformities in children livng there who play with the bullets, it also affects the troops and their own government is backflipping around the dangers of DU.

Most troops suffering with this also dont get the treatment they deserve by there own government.

Most people know the 4 isotopes found in the spent shells are from cooked uranium and the u236 doesnt even appear in nature at such levels.

I think we know who is the greater evil in all of this.

Weapons of mass destruction my ass

Arrow
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jan 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 14th Apr 2003 06:56 Edited at: 14th Apr 2003 06:57
Good point Indi, I never considered all the DU we used in the last war. I know that uranium and plutonium can be reprocessed many times, if Saddam did have a nuclear weapon, we (USA) would be the ones who supplied him with the materials.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
large_nostril
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 14th Apr 2003 09:07
Yeah, we've all heard about these chemicals they are finding. But you are obviously only listening to the initial reports of "a substance white in powder form..." etc.. If you actually read up on the reports of these "chemicals" after they have gotten passed the visual analysis, you'd discover that all have been dismissed as talcum powder (baby powder), or theobroma oil (cocoa butter, used in chocolate), etc.. And just because some whiny people say talc and chocolate are carcinogens, doesn't make them weapons of mass destruction.

"Most troops suffering with this also dont get the treatment they deserve by there own government."
Yeah, 150,000 some odd former troops have been diagnosed as having symptoms (from 'mild' nerve agents used by the US 10 years ago), yet it is classified as a "pre-existing medical condition" which was not properly diagnosed at an earlier stage because symptoms take about 6-7 years to appear. Surprisingly enough, the only ones to be diagnosed with these symptoms were involved in the war.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
The Wendigo
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 13th Sep 2002
Location: A hole near the base of a tree in the US
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 08:52
yeah, we should pull out. Who the hell cares if women and children are getting raped, tortured, and killed for their beliefs. lets pull out and keep to our streak of isolationism.

1.00 GHZ processor, 256 MB RAM, GeForce 3 64MB, SB Live!, 8 cans of soda per day
Arrow
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jan 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 08:54
The reason we don't "pull out" is becuase it doesn't sound manly.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
indi
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 09:48
what happens when theres no more countries to plunder and setup as a capitlist society? hmmm what happens then?

thats a form a genocide for human civilisation, if we dont have rich biodiversity of culture we will suffer in beng resistant to natures smaller creatures

If diference of opinion leads to superior force then we havent left the law of the jungle.



Id now consider the fact that USa UK and my countries Governments Oz have broken a big mandate from the U.N. effectively the actions taken where no moral then saddams.

I think what is done is done and hopefully this instance of the breach to the U.N. charter is a unique one time only incident.

It is a good thing to help the people of Iraq but it may have been handled with approval from the UN in a much better way.


Is Syria or Korea next?

What is really immoral is asking someone to go to war for you but no acknowledge or compensation for your long term injuries when you return home.


its all very dissapointing

Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 11:04
the US government are experts at that... atleast when they loose a conflict - feel sorry for the veitnam vetrans

the conflict is now officially over, so we'll see within the next few weeks what is the real agenda for the governments. Through thier recent actions i have found some respect for Blair, i mean perhaps his agenda still isn't clear ... but what he has pushing for, the new government setup and how British troops actual roles in this conflict played out.
It didn't appear to me he started in this conflict with as gunho an attitude as i believed, nor has he been pushing to have the armed forces search for everything - i mean our troops we majorly used as relief aid, take&hold routes and towns for this job ... certainly the mandate for the British Armed forces wasn't even close to the American forces.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 11:10
I normally stay out of politics but I gotta say that when I look at humanity all I see is a wildlife documentary. The law of the jungle still holds true no matter what system of government or how much language/technology you pile on top of gut instinct, the strong will always prey on the weak. It's only concepts based in religion, science and philosophy that make that seem wrong, little ululations of the voicebox and mind that we take so seriously. Through language the human race has become almost pure ego, even to the point of judging an animal who kills as 'vicious', a cat decimating a bird or a shark tearing off a surfers leg for instance. The day I realized that was the day all this horror made sense to me, we are no different to the shark, we're just so good at denying our true nature we can't see it.

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 11:35
yup all primal
problem is we may think we're better, but when was the last time you saw a lion take down an antelope and to show the others not to run away it toyed with it and kept it alive on purpose?

(^_^) people are the true monsters of this world, and why we're top of the food chain ... because we kill indescriminantly, and in a way which can strike pure fear into others.
Animals kill for food, not sport.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
bitJericho
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 9th Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 12:17
Quote: "Animals kill for food, not sport."


actually, it was my understanding lions and people were the only animals that did not neccessarily kill just for food... I could be wrong on that...but i'm not gonna be bothered to look it up right now^_^

The 3D Modeler's Group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3dModeler/
The Unofficial DB Newsgroup : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMag/
Arrow
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jan 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 17th Apr 2003 21:43
The Ghost and the Darkness, the two worst lions ever, they even kept trophies. If you can find the movie baced on them, under the same name, you should get it.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 06:48
i dunno i'd have to ask my brother, he'd know ... i coulda sworn i remember seeing a documentary or two that noted that wilds animals generally only killed what they needed to eat.
but still, thats just Lions out of HOW many types of animal?
lol - quite amusing the top two hunters in the world happen to live so inherintly evil lives eh

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 08:28 Edited at: 18th Apr 2003 08:34
I could have sworn we were fighting the noble and just cause of freeing Iraq's people from the terroristic dictatorship of Saddam, who has commited countless international violations:

• War crimes committed during the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s.
• The repeated use of chemical weapons by Iraq against the Kurds.
• The ethnic cleansing of the southern Shiites of Iraq.
• The summary execution of thousands of political opponents.
• The systematic use of torture against political detainees.
• Ruthless slaughter, tolling nearly 15,000, during and following the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and 1991.

And OF COURSE the bastard has weapons of mass destruction, we gave them to him for the love of god! How in the name of Jesus could this war be a bad thing? I think we've established by now that Saddam cannot remain in power, and if someone doesnt step in the there's no way he will lose it...

btw, that's not agreeing with raven, he's been a big jerk lately...

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
Arrow
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jan 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 10:26
Saddam's no longer there, the war is over, now comes the truely bad part. The US trying to push it wieght around to get what it wants in the aftermath.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
indi
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 10:49
na quoth your just immersed in propoganda mate

QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 10:52
there's still the issue of the rebel Iraqi forces that keep popping up, and of course we still need a certain level of occupation to instate a democratic government and ensure political stability.

Indi, I never took you as a hippee. But I always knew arrow was one...

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 10:55
and if your sentances end with *mate*, you have no right to say anything about US political affairs...

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
indi
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 11:00
lol I can talk about anything I like and theres not one ditty yank that can say otherwise.

just like you have your own opinion,I have mine.

We are in this war together and not by choice of the people here anyway.

I didnt see any aussies being killed by friendly fire yet.

Oh wait we only sent our SAS and not green marines.

indi
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 11:01
I think you have a long way to go Quoth to be able to form objective sentences without wierd inuendo.

If your country has so much labelling that u need to label me a hippy then so be it.

I wont fight your own ignorance for you.

QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 11:27
my ignorance? I guess I didnt post enough facts to back up my statements...oh wait, I did! And if you're anti war, well then hey what hippee isnt?

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 11:30
oh wait indi...what was that?

Quote: "I like and theres not one ditty yank that can say otherwise."


Quote: "If your country has so much labelling that u need to label me a hippy then so be it."

Quote: "I like and theres not one ditty yank that can say otherwise."

Quote: "I like and theres not one ditty yank that can say otherwise."

Quote: "I like and theres not one ditty yank that can say otherwise."


nouf said

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
indi
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: Earth, Brisbane, Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 11:37
I tried to make it work for your lifestyle, guess I was wrong.
Lets leave it be for now since we dont see eye to eye about military action in Iraq.

If you think everyone who opposes war is a hippy and only americans can talk about "international" affairs then we have nothing more to discuss.

QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 11:41
and if you think every American is a "ditty yank," and if by "international" you mean the US is the only country willing to take action, then I accept those terms.

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
haggisman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 12:05
Indi, TBH there is propoganda on both sides of the fence. A simple example is the recent war protest in London, the organizers said in the region of 150,000 people turned up whilst the local police said less than 20,000 actually did...

Also Depleted Uranium isn't as bad as you say it is...

Quote: "The World Health Organization says studies in Kosovo show no rise in the rates of leukemia among the Albanian population in the province."


this next bit is taken from the report

Quote: "Conclusions drawn by the mission from the currently available scientific data:
1. Depleted uranium is only weakly radioactive and emits about 40% less radioactivity
than a similar mass of natural uranium.
2. Scientific and medical studies have not established a link between exposure to
depleted uranium and the onset of cancers, congenital abnormalities or serious toxic
chemical effects on organs. Caution has been expressed by some scientists who would
like to see a larger body of independently (i.e. non-military) funded studies to confirm
the current viewpoint.
3. Soldiers, particularly those at the site of an attack, are the most likely to have inhaled
uranium metal and oxides in dusts and smoke. It is likely that the general population
would not have encountered this form of transmission pathway or, at the very worst,
only in very isolated instances.
4. The presence of minute quantities of plutonium in the depleted uranium used in
Kosovo was reported by UNEP on 16 February 2001 (press release). UNEP has
stated that ‘these newest findings on the composition of the depleted uranium only
lead to a minor change in the overall radiological situation and therefore should not
cause any immediate alarm’."


The complete document can be found under kosovo mission at http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/env/du/en/


Clearly you have been reading to much propoganda as well...

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 12:06
how about a ditty brit hehee
Quoth there is something wrong with you on SO many levels right now...

Quote: "Quoth - you have no right to say anything about US political affairs..."


i could be wrong, but it isn't United States Affairs anymore... infact the Terroism War is now backed by the Cohilision (which is USA, UK & Australia). Last time i checked Indi was an Aussie citizen which means that he does have a right to say - but that aside even if he wasn't within the nations that are within this whole mess of chips then who are you to tell him what he can and can't speak his mind about?

Quote: "Quoth - my ignorance? I guess I didnt post enough facts to back up my statements...oh wait, I did!"


you facts are based on United States news casts, they are telling you the truth about things, however they are doing it in such a way and cutting out so much detail on everything you're being spoon fed what you want to hear. If you are in an area which get BBC News24 then i'd suggest you start watching that for your facts - even then you're probably still getting a very British veiw on the events, but atleast they don't go around going "Oh the UK is fantastic, we're kicking ass, oh yeah oh yeah, we da man!" ... you get a pretty fair argument over what is happening, when people have died they wanted to know why they were shot at, who started the fight, how many people were involved.
You didn't just hear "Today the US 107th Airborn push forward today killing 12 Iraqi Soldiers in plain clothes, now to John with the 13th Hawkforce to give us the facts" - when a guy who hasn't a bloody clue what happened just repeats what was just said and answers alot of "yes, thats right brock." kinda questions.
you'd actually get something like "Today the US 107th Airborn push for Algeba. There was a small conflict started on the outskirts of the city when suspected Iraqi rebel soldiers fired upon the US sqaudron. There are reports of 12 confirmed dead Iraqi's and possibly more, with several confirmed US calsalties. Luckily no Civilians were caught within the crossfire from these prilimary reports."
and when new reports are wrong from the media the reporters do correct the people in the studio ... with all of the reports that were comming back from a majority of the British reports were from within cities where they heard the Iraqi news first, and were always being closely monitored by the Iraqi's.

Quote: "Quoth - And if you're anti war, well then hey what hippee isnt?"


Being antiwar for no reason yes, that does make someone a hippie ... not wanting to fight for a conflict for your nation with conscription on makes you a hippie. What doesn't make you a hippie is sitting down and having an opinion which isn't FOR any conflict.

you wanna believe that i'm being some big jerk about everything lately then you do so, doesn't change the facts that althought YES saddam's regieme has been torn apart ... we all know damn'd well that was NOT the intent of the Bush administration going in, even more it doesn't appear to be the intent of them now as what they want to do is seize control of the country rather than allowing the current setup of a government and letting the UN Peaceforce take over keeping the country safe from Terrorists/Rebels.

as far as keeping Rebels/Terrorists under control, the US is probably the worst country in the world to be left in charge ... there don't have a statute right in this case, they don't have a logical case, infact there are no possible reasons i can see for the US even still being within the country. The British Armed forces have deal with Rebels and Terrorist groups as part of the UN Peaceforce, and have done so in almost every conflict in the world, so has Germany. It's time the US backed off from the country, they've done what they promised, now its time they let the rest clean up the mess they've left within the wake and focus on whatever target they feel is next... that would be the sound military option as well - that is as long as there is no REAL interest within Iraq apart from to have freed them from the opression.

Both of the other two governments involved in this conflict have taken steps to make sure why they stated they were there they're gonna carry out, i've seen nothing from the US government to hold up thier words going in.
I have also not seen any of these Ready to Roll Weapons of Mass destruction that the States claimed he has... i have seen alot of materials to POSSIBLY make them, but not big ass fully working Nuclear or Biological weaponry.
and having the materials to create these weapons is not the same as actually having the weapons themselves!!

Saddam has been removed from power, whether he is dead or not no longer matters, what matters is that his country is no longer his.
The conflict is over ... just because Rebels probably exist to rise up against the current power, doesn't mean the US has to tear apart the country looking for them - because Rebels are like Mice, you go looking for them and they'll scurry into the undergroun ... you wait for them then you attack and you have a better chance of catching them or killing them off.
Personally i want those damn'd incompetant US fools out of that country and out from under the foot of everyone... they've had thier war, they've done thier good - we've all indulged them, now they can f**k off home!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 17:48
Quoth, where do you get this concept of noble and just from?
I tell you it don't exist, there are no such absolutes. Any two countries at war will believe that they are in the right, but the truth of the matter is that there is a simple intolerance for eachother's way of doing things, and/or a need to grow. Now a nation carving out it's territory is an animalistic thing, don't forget that modern america was born out of a mass genocide of indian culture, and so too was Australia formed this way, by severely culling the Aboriginal cultures to make room for the settlers. To my conscience the middle east seems quite far behind in it's social development, but really it's just the same sort of thing happening there as in the above examples. The dhani people of papua new-guinea still occasionally practice cannibalism, that's their way. Should a superpower go in there and put a stop to that? It's their way of life. If the soviets had become more powerful than they did in the 80's should they have gone into the US and destroyed that culture, simply because they did not agree with the US constitution? Seriously, learn to think for yourself, war is never about just cause or nobility, it's about survival of the fittest, in other words, natural selection.

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 19:48
i could see a noble cause for a war... but not here, nor by the US
they're focus isn't on the greater good of anything but personal gains.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 20:47
Noble:
1. Possessing hereditary rank in a political system or social class derived from a feudalistic stage of a country's development.

2. Having or showing qualities of high moral character, such as courage, generosity, or honor: a noble spirit.

The thing is the above definitions assume a common right, something which is only defined within humanity by it's laws, religious or political. Each different culture varies as to it's opinions on what is 'right', and so I can't agree that a war can ever be fought for a noble reason, as it will always depend on whose side you're on.

mmmm all these italics are making me hungry for some dinner hehehe

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
Arrow
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 1st Jan 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 21:19
Quote: "The presence of minute quantities of plutonium in the depleted uranium used in
Kosovo was reported by UNEP on 16 February 2001 (press release). "
It only takes an amount the size of the tip of a pencil in Plutonium to kill you.

Me, Hippie? Look, just becuase I'm anti-war, got long hair, think "Incents and Peperments" is a far out song, say goovy too much, and wear occationlly wear a tie-die shirt, it don't mean I'm a hippie. Personally, I gotta laugh at the fact you think calling someone is a hippie is an insult. What next you gonna call me a yuppie?

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
haggisman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 21:54
Arrow did you miss the rest of it or something?

Quote: " ‘these newest findings on the composition of the depleted uranium only
lead to a minor change in the overall radiological situation and therefore should not
cause any immediate alarm’"


Anyway Plutonium generally only decays by alpha emmision which is generally non harmful when outside the body...

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 22:25
lmao... oh yeah tease the hungry Raven with your dinner

that aside in no matter what culture you're in the noble cause is tied hand in hand with the sense of honour.
if you are saving your family from a fire, no matter your culture your are risking you life for anothers ... this shows your bravery in the face of an adversity and a deeply honourable and noble act.

under this same guise you could at a stretch uphold the same sentiment towards the troops within Iraq, as you can see Saddam as the fire which is burning down the city from the inside and without hesitation to the risk of thier own lives they are saving these people from the burning fire which is the Iraq government.

however that said, they are not really saving anyone - because we just see smoke, but no flames... not all the time where there is smoke is there a fire out of control.
if the iraqi's had asked for the help, then the noble action would've been to wane into the battle without consulting our cabinates, without consulting the UN ... done the job we should have done a decade ago. But the hour the Cohillision forces pulled out of Iraq last time without winning the war we had on our hands, was the hour our ranks lost thier honour for failing to complete the objective to the end rather than just end the strife between Iraq, Iran and Kuwait.

The British Troops have started on the journey to restore that honour, and repair the trust.

just thought i'd add that anyways

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 18th Apr 2003 23:37
Teehee, Well I've had my fill now
As to restoring the trust, it's a tough job they have ahead of them, but see my point is that saving your family from a burning house is indeed noble, and honourable, but if you were to save an old eskimo woman from the elements after her family abondoned her you would be commiting an act of prejudice on her culture. They don't see things the same way as us. And the various middle eastern cultures couldn't really be much more different from ours, sure there are similarities, but really, they should be allowed to wage war in their own region without being jumped on by other nations. It's like prodding your nose into the womens changing room, sure, if she was your girl she wouldn't mind, even invite you in for a bit of lunch, but if she 'aint your girl you'll probably be slapped at the very least, and every time she saw you after that she'd think to herself, ugh, there's that pervy guy... That's the position the US put it'self in at vietnam, and what the coalition is doing right now, and to regain that trust as you say after such a bad introduction, will be difficult indeed. Perhaps it will take two or more generations for things to acheive a sense of stability there, we can't know. They are a very traditional people remember, and stories of this will be passed down.

As to the question of radiation from any substance, there is no safe level, what one person could handle constantly for years with no ill effects could cause cancer in someone else after only limited exposure, that's just the nature of radiation. It's not fully understood, and neither is cancer, so any study you read about this that claims to be conclusive you should either dismiss as propaganda, or at least remain completely sceptical, ask yourself "who did they test this on for factual evidence". Unless they've been testing on thousands of real people over a period of decades, with the isotopes involved, how can you honestly repeat what's been published, as truth?

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
haggisman
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 00:03
Quote: "that's just the nature of radiation. It's not fully understood"


In what way? We understand why it occurs; We understand the mechanism and we understand the result of it.

Specs:- 1GHZ athlon, Radeon8500, 192mb ram, winxp
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 00:18
So you'd be comfortable holding a piece of plutonium in your hand, safe in the knowledge that you've read somewhere that it decays by alpha emission etc... ?
Surely you must know that there is much much more to learn about how radiation acts on human tissue, I can't believe you'd bother to argue such a point.

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
empty
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 26th Aug 2002
Location: 3 boats down from the candy
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 00:26
Quote: "
Also Depleted Uranium isn't as bad as you say it is...
"


Well the report says that there seems to be no link "between exposure to depleted uranium and the onset of cancers" in the Kosovo. This is not a long-term study and it's only one study. There'll have to be be more results from more sources (a lot of studies are on their way at the moment) before we can tell how bad DU really is.

Ogres have layers.
Shadow Robert
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 22nd Sep 2002
Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 00:36
i wouldn't hold Plutonium, but that might be because i know that our bodies will absorb anything on the skin ... which is why you can get lead poisioning from holding lead artifacts long enough.
you don't have to swollow, lick, insert or mop up a cut with a piece of a material for it to affect you

you can believe what you will dan about how the isotopes within radioactive substance work... however most people would be sensible i'd of thought to have actually looked up the lab research from isotopes from the universities and such.
They constantly do research which doesn't care what is going on outside of the labs and will report what they find.

a Radioactive substance isn't anything bad... it just means that it emmits a substance which will travel through other substances.
Hence the term Radiator given to a heating unit which heats the air through the convention of emitting heat.
Phosfurous lightbulbs radiate light, does that make them dangerous?
how about cellphones ... i mean you hear all this rumour about them rotting your brain, but the radio signal sent and received are no different to what we've been exposed to for year in FM radio, the only difference in the concentration is smaller, more compact and passes through you quicker.

and as for helping the Eskimo, it isn't a noble act as she hasn't asked for the help - but even if she does, then she has already been shunned by the tribe ... you saving her from her fate doesn't make you a bad guy. Personally i'm sick of our governments medaling in people affairs, if we're to expand the empire again - that would be fine. But all they do is medel which is just annoying because they make everyone feel like they're bad, throw in a second of help then be like "oki i've show ya how, now you try"

it's like punching a bully a few time for your brother and then just walking off knowing full well that bully is gonna pumpel the living hell out of your brother! sickening, if you're going to do a job you do it right the first time - else don't bother. That said, there are ways of helping people without being invovled.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 00:54
I just find it so delightful that the Brits say that their troops are the one's doing the right thing, and that they've done all the work, and the Aussies say that their troops have been the most helpful, and they are the only ones with reason to occupy Iraq...and the both bashing the US as they go. This all just sounds like anti-American nationalistic bullshit to me...

Quote: "The British Armed forces have deal with Rebels and Terrorist groups as part of the UN Peaceforce, and have done so in almost every conflict in the world"

Quote: "the US is probably the worst country in the world to be left in charge "

Quote: "Personally i want those damn'd incompetant US fools out of that country and out from under the foot of everyone... now they can f**k off home!"

Quote: "If you are in an area which get BBC News24 then i'd suggest you start watching that for your facts "

Quote: "I didnt see any aussies being killed by friendly fire yet.
Oh wait we only sent our SAS and not green marines."

Quote: "your just immersed in propoganda mate"


And may I remind you the list of Saddam's indecencies didn't even involve the US once! That list came from a British newscast website! There's no propaganda there! But, who cares, America is obviously a terrible country, so any American presenting "facts" is obviously dangerously swayed by the media! Load'a horse feces...

just so delightful...

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 01:32
Yeah, well the example about the eskimo woman is just 'cos that's the way they did things, once someone got too old to be of use to a tribe, they willingly walk out into the ice to freeze or be eaten by some creature like a polar bear. To them that was right. So to save her would be violating the laws of her people.
Anyhow, that's neither here nor there, About the radiation, I'm all for nuclear power, I'm not one of these people who's afraid unduly of things that benefit mankind. My point was simply that to say it's no biggie to have kids playing around with d/u because of w.h.o testing is ridiculous, because no matter what lab tests you do on individual cells, the only real test would be on live humans over a period of decades.

The radiation from a radiator is called infra red, if you could see the scar on my girlfriends knee from a heater burn...
the radiation from a phosphorus lightbulb is photonic, laseing photons even under 5mw can destroy the retina.
and the cellphone radiation is microwave, not radio. Each of these forms of radiation is of course dangerous under certain conditions. Though I regularly use a mobile phone and don't worry even slightly about it, my brother has a tiny tumour just above his right ear.
X rays are used routinely in diagnosis, but still can cause birth defects in children born from sperm irradiated by them.
We are also surrounded constantly by hundreds of thousands of volts of em radiation from radio waves, which severely affect insect populations behaviour, and probably have an efect on humans as well.
Sonic radiation from submarines is a strong candidate for the phenomenon of whales beaching themselves.

I personally don't care about this stuff, as it's just a fact of life and I understand how it all works.
But to believe that there is any safe level of radiation is dangerous.
We can only have standards which are general.
If plutonuim is ok to hold, even with a glove on you wouldn't bother making a vaccum chamber with glove handles built in to process the stuff. Nor would you need a gieger counter at the facility where you create d/u weapons.
I'm not at all fazed about the above, but when I see footage of kids playing with pieces of this stuff, I can't believe there are people who think that's O.K 'cos they read a report, or heard a report on the news.
Remember thalidomide?
What about DMT.
Perhaps DDT?
These were all proclaimed safe on reports much like what's being talked about, and with the exception of ddt were designed to save lives. A d/u shell is designed to pierce an armoured tank.
I simply have to laugh at the defense of the use of this stuff as a toy by children, just stop and think

Anyhow, this is why I usually stay out of politics, people can be so patriotic they get angry or childish when their governments actions are challenged. Remember it's my government too. In the end we are born into an existing structure, and must live within it's confines, political and social but that should never stop us questioning, and thinking for ourselves.

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
large_nostril
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 5th Feb 2003
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 06:26
"a Radioactive substance isn't anything bad... it just means that it emmits a substance which will travel through other substances."
Damn straight. Come on, your liver is even radioactive, so is your computer, your tv, dog, cat, goldfish...

"• War crimes committed during the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s."
And don't forget that one pilot that was never accounted for.
"• The ethnic cleansing of the southern Shiites of Iraq."
And what exactly does that mean?
"• The summary execution of thousands of political opponents."
And other countries don't?
"• The systematic use of torture against political detainees."
And other countries don't?
"• Ruthless slaughter, tolling nearly 15,000, during and following the invasion of Kuwait in 1990 and 1991."
And other countries don't?

As far as I can tell, the above only suggests that any country not complying with what the US finds to be 'ethical' is going to be invaded. Good-bye Morocco, Mexico, Syria, Venezuela, Brazil, Congo, China, N. Korea, etc... Since when did the US determine what the world was to be ethical or not. I thought that was primarily done by the UN. But the US no longer needs the UN's permission obviously.

Most of you are missing my point. I'm not saying that the war is unjust because Saddam is actually a realy nice guy and he has a wonderful regime or anything like that. I'm merely suggesting that the US has become overly corrupt since the Bush administation took office. Come on, arab nations already looked upon Americans as being 'vile'. I guess if we merely invade two arab countries and threaten to invade a third, they're gonna realize that we were actually saints all along.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
QuothTheRaven
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Oct 2002
Location: United States
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 08:20
...bah...guh...what are you...stupid?

no other country has been as flagrantly destructive as Iraq! There has yet been a modern country that has commited so many injustices as Iraq. What in God's name do you mean "other countries dont kill 15,000 Kurds?" (And Saddam is not a country). And no other dictator has run for so long unaposed, because he'll kill the most innocent civilian who tries to run against him? Well I'll be damned, other countries DONT do these things! And you're right again, other countries DONT torture every detainee from other countries! (May I remind you again this list was from a BRITISH news site?) You are making the worst possible argument, generalization, and excluding so many things that you hold no water!

and "The ethnic cleansing of the southern Shiites of Iraq" means that if Saddam's troops found a Shiite, they shot him!

And quite obviously, the UN DOESNT DETERMINE WHAT IS ETHICAL, because they haven't done ANYTHING in this matter! How blind are you that these indecencies dont matter at all to you? So I ask ALL of you!:

What would it take to satisfy you that Saddam cannot remain in power? If these most terrible acts dont sway you at all, and the fact that Saddam has taken countless innocent lives unparalleled since Germany's Nazi actions of WWII, is there anything else he would have to do to justify a war? If these war crimes mean nothing to you, what exactly would Saddam have to do to make you want a war?

And there's no corruption in the Bush administration that I can see, would you mind backing up anything any of you say with some...evidence?

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
Danmatsuma
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 2nd Mar 2003
Location: Australia
Posted: 19th Apr 2003 08:34
QED

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-05-09 08:15:25
Your offset time is: 2024-05-09 08:15:25