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Geek Culture / The dumb war

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Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 09:13
QouththeRaven, I respect you and your determination. But there's no use arguing with the deaf and blind. We could come out waving WMD from Iraq, and slap some of these wondeful people across the face with em'. And say "Look what we found in Iraq, nevermind the mass grave of gassed kurds! We found WMD!". And half the world would spit in our face and say we planted it. Why? Because thats what they want to believe.

After watching people argue, I've decided not to argue with trees.

Rock on.

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 09:28
?

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
Brent_Seraphim
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 12:03
I'm saying that your wasting you time argueing with the ppl of this board. It goes nowhere.

"Laugh to scorn the power of man..."
haggisman
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 12:24
Quote: "So you'd be comfortable holding a piece of plutonium in your hand, safe in the knowledge that you've read somewhere that it decays by alpha emission "


Oh come on you must have done radioactivity at school, even at GCSE level they will tell you that "alpha particles (basically helium nuclei) can't even penetrate a piece of paper or a few cms of air". My college has the alpha source stored in a tiny wooden box, I find it amusing you assume everything associated with radiation must be "deadly".


Quote: "If plutonuim is ok to hold, even with a glove on you wouldn't bother making a vaccum chamber with glove handles built in to process the stuff. Nor would you need a gieger counter at the facility where you create d/u weapons."


How can you even compare the situations... Plutonium was found in minute amounts in some DU weapons. Any remenants that are still in the enviroment will most likely not come into contact with humans or still be in the protective casing. You seem to be confused between someones whos job is too handle and utilize radioactive material and someone who may stumble upon minute fragments that are no more radioactive than those found naturally.

Quote: "
Remember thalidomide?
What about DMT.
Perhaps DDT?
These were all proclaimed safe on reports much like what's being talked about, and with the exception of ddt were designed to save lives. A d/u shell is designed to pierce an armoured tank. "


DDT is still being used today and was designed to save lives. Although you are no longer allowed to use it outside, mostly due to the chemicals persistance and bioaccumulation. These factors where not even known about when DDT was first used, nobody ever expected problems. DDT was being used with great success in eradicating malaria from the face of the planet in the 40's. Too bad it did have problems...

Quote: "I simply have to laugh at the defense of the use of this stuff as a toy by children"


No, im defending its use as a weapon.

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 13:44
hehe, go back and read my post carefully and you'll see that I don't give a rat's cuss about radiation, was simply making a point that anything radioactive can be dangerous, when handled stoopidly, much like what a child might do. If I did I certainly wouldn't muck about with tesla coils and electronics, surely I'd be too terrified of lead poisoning, most definitely wouldn't spend half my time breathing in solder fumes, and the other half in front of a computer screen Look if it makes you feel any better I think that anything that gets a job done efficiently is a good thing, at no point have I been anti-war, I'm never interested in a who's right and who's wrong debate, because like I said, I don't believe in such concepts. You seem like an intelligent enough person, but it's becoming obvious that you can't help yourself from picking out fragments of info which support your ideas and obsessing over them. So as this has every indication of becoming a repetitive nitpicking session, and is already a waste of my time, I'll leave you to it

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
haggisman
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 14:04
Quote: "but it's becoming obvious that you can't help yourself from picking out fragments of info which support your ideas and obsessing over them"


What would you rather I just state what I believed without giving a single shread of evidence? The only reason I keep posting the same information is because clearly some people here don't seem to take it in.

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heartbone
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 22:26
Those young American and British soldiers are going into a poisoned land.

Look what happened to the Gulf veterans, and what is happening to the Iraqis. Among the Gulf veterans, the field hospital people who were there for about three months were the worst affected even though they were in Saudi and Kuwait because of the prevailing wind. This time the American troops will be there for much longer. They are going to have the same deformities amongst their children. They will share the same fate.

Nobody has addressed the problems of the Gulf veterans, or the nuclear test veterans of the Pacific, or the Vietnam veterans, or the people in Vietnam who suffered from Agent Orange. Now kids are being sent as a different kind of cannon fodder to have their whole genetic integrity impaired by being in Iraq.

We should remember too, that although there have been surveys done in Basra in the south, Baghdad was the most heavily bombed and there has never been a survey done to check the radiation levels in Baghdad. [In Basra] some of the weapons used were tipped with depleted uranium, some had a core coating and some had the actual core of the weapons. According to Janes some of the weapons they are going to use at the moment have as much as two tons of pure uranium in one bunker-busting bomb. What has also been discovered now is that it is not even depleted. That was bad enough with a four and a half billion year half-life, chemically toxic and radioactive.

In Basra they have found the bombs that were used had enriched uranium in them neptunium. It had everything you would expect to find in the nuclear fuel cycle, including three different kinds of plutonium. Anyone who knows plutonium knows it is more lethal than enriched uranium. The weapons experts estimate that if it were possible to distribute just one teaspoonful of plutonium 239 across the face of the globe, everybody at some point would get cancer. And we are just dumping huge quantities on Iraq.

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
haggisman
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 23:13
Quote: "four and a half billion year half-life"


LOL, bad news? With a four and a half billion year half-life i would be suprised if it was barely giving of any radiation at all...

Quote: "The weapons experts estimate that if it were possible to distribute just one teaspoonful of plutonium 239 across the face of the globe, everybody at some point would get cancer. "


Link?


TBH I don't get it why people always blame us for radiation etc. Over 87% of radiation is from natural sources, only 1% is from nuclear power plants/nuclear weapon testing.

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the_winch
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 03:50
How much radiation does it take to give you cancer? A single oxygen atom in the right place could give you cancer. I don't really want to be ingesting any radioactive material I don't have to.

The longer it's in your body the chances of it doing bad increase. You don't want to feed it to children and when you use it in a bomb some of it will end up in people.
Arrow
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 08:44
Quote: "I'm merely suggesting that the US has become overly corrupt since the Bush administation took office."
Hate to tell ya but this country has been corupt since the 19th century.

Quote: "TBH I don't get it why people always blame us for radiation etc. Over 87% of radiation is from natural sources, only 1% is from nuclear power plants/nuclear weapon testing."
Maybe it cause natural sources aren't blanketing it over countries full of brown people. Has you noticed that America hasn't attack any white people since the WWII?

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 10:41
just to mainly be annoying here, but ya'll forget there is no research to actually link Radioactive Materials with cancer of anykind, and the fact that this desease has plagued people from long before we even knew about radioactive materials - the only thing we are sure of what they cause is Radiation Posioning.

As radiation poisioning breaks down all of your celluar structure and cancer mutates the dna causing it to grow more rapidly than can be handled, i'm not even sure how the same substance could cause such opposite end effects

and haggisman as a point, the longer the half-life the longer the decay rate is but also the slower the particles will expand - and more oftenly than not, it isn't the overwhelming exposure that causes the damage but the speed of which they pass through you.
and a little side note, but erm why would touching telsa coils be like touching lead?
Lead is a very useless conductor, and they use a polyblend of aluminium and steel within alot of electrical products.

finally about America's unvolvement ... i'd like to say, i've sat down and i've tried over and over and over to find out exactly WHY the US even declared war over Iraq.
If you look at it, Australia is there simply because of their ties to the UK - i mean even though they're now independant, they still have strong ties unlike the break the US took there are no hard feelings between us.
From Britians pov, we're just comming along for the ride ... and from their actions within the middle east it shows that they weren't there to be the agressors but be there for support.

So we have the Aussies sending in a few good men to make sure paths are clear ... we have the Brits giving the Aid and making sure the population is safe from reprisal.
The Aussies job is done, they've packed up and gone home.
The Brits are still there keeping everyone safe and making sure the aid comes in unhindered.
The Americans are doing what exactly?

have you noticed that they have troops searching for these weapons of mass destruction (funny that none have been found yet), and they're also protecting the oil fields. They are not doing any protection work on the population... infact really for them it is as if the conflict isn't over. They're not trying to make friends by tear the country apart for something.

and remember all this without UN backing which they made it clear from day one they didn't care to get, and i'd wager alot of money that if Blair wasn't aboard with this then there would never have even been the attempt to get the backing.
Every step of the way Blair did try to make this conflict legitimate, his involvment in it was stupid from the get go ... however as the US was going to do this anyway, then the solution was to tag along as make out that we are the good guys in all of this.
Restore those relations we lost in the Gulf.

I mean you notice how it wasn't until ANOTHER meeting with Bush that Blair said "yes, there is evidence that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction"
the guy is a weazle, but atleast you can see that some of his intensions are to make a slightly better situation out of a terrible one.

If the US truely believed in helping these people, and this wasn't about money, oil, power balances ... then why did they not overthrow him a decade ago?
why did it take 2buildings and 4,000+ lives for them to say "right, we're going to do something about him" - something which he had nothing to do with.
America has been acting like a bully at school who's been humiliated, and they're just striking out at anyone they choose because they can build the evidence against them...

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
Danmatsuma
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 11:22
Oh c'mon Raven, of course touching tesla coils has nothing to do with touching lead, but soldering any kind of electrical circuit definitely does. I build robots, coils, transmitters, and right now I'm working on a motion capture setup. For friends I sometimes fix computers, t.v's, microwave ovens, radios and just about anything else that takes a battery or plugs into a wall socket. just to make it clear that I touch a lot of lead and deal with large amounts radiation every day of my life, more than any of you attacking my posts.
On the other hand, a firing tesla coil does give off large amounts of em radiation, ozone, and even a small amount of x-rays but still every day I give myself a zappin' to wake up, and every time I build a new one there's also the massive gobs of solder I use in the power supply circuit

Anyone who wants to indulge in being pedantic should get their facts completely straight, I'm not gonna pick out anything out of anyone here's posts/threads that ain't aimed at me, but you better watch it if it is, 'cos today I'm completely bored and I ain't got nothin' better to do

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
haggisman
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 12:43
Quote: "How much radiation does it take to give you cancer? A single oxygen atom in the right place could give you cancer. I don't really want to be ingesting any radioactive material I don't have to."


The material which Heartbone was threatening us with had an half life of 4.5 billion years, thats 4,500,000,000 years unless you are using the good old english terminology for billion. I took the substance to be 0.5kg of Uranium238, after some calculation it turns out that in a one min period the amount of atoms that will decay was 0. No the calculation wasn't wrong, it was the fact that less than 1x10^-100 will decay per minute which my calulater can't even display.

All in all some dirt in your garden is probably more radioactive than it...

Quote: "Maybe it cause natural sources aren't blanketing it over countries full of brown people. Has you noticed that America hasn't attack any white people since the WWII?"


Natural sources aren't blanketing it??

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the_winch
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 18:03
If it's less redioactive and less harmfull than dirt why are they disposing of it over iraq? Why not just dig a big hole and tip it all in?

Perhaps it's because in the US they try to make sure none of it (depleted uranium) makes it's way to the environment for a good reason. If it gets into the environment it will have a detromental effect on life.

I am sure it a lot cheaper to put some in bombs and blow them up in iraq that dispose of it properly.

It's also a heavy metal once it gets into your blood stream it will proberly be in your tissue for the rest of your life. Without the radiation it would still be harmfull.

I wouldn't want any children to be breathing in the dust created by depleted uranium bombs, the Us government doesn't want it's children anywhere near it, I am sure the UK government doesn't either.
haggisman
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 21:32
Quote: "If it's less redioactive and less harmfull than dirt why are they disposing of it over iraq? Why not just dig a big hole and tip it all in?"


Disposing? Please before you next open your mouth, think!

Quote: "This makes DU an ideal metal for use as kinetic energy penetrators, counterweights, and shielding or armor. High density and pyrophoric (catches fire) nature are the two most significant physical properties that guided its selection for use as a kinetic energy penetrator."


Im sure they do tip a lot of radioactive waste into big holes in america, and i would hazard a guess it would be a lot cheaper than strapping it to the front of bombs.

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Arrow
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 21:37
Quote: "Natural sources aren't blanketing it??"
What I mean is even though there is more radiation naturally acuring, people stay away from it. In fact most of it is in the upper atomoshere and near the poles. My point was the that the US purposely dumpeding it on others with the intent to cause damage.

Look at it this way, forest fire happen alot, mostly due to lighting or othe natural events. Lets say one of these natural fires kills a family, it's horrable yes, but it was an act of nature, it can be forgiven. Now lets say the same fire was started be someone who intended to kill people with it. Different story all together, huh? You see my point?

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
haggisman
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 22:37
Well since you don't actually know, im talking about the amount of radiation an average human recieves. My point was it is hardly more dangerous than the radiation already present, and i don't see you showing any evidence of Americas intent in harming people using the radioactive material other than the obvious...

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large_nostril
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 08:43
Jesus crap Quoth. How could you possibly get it wrong again. Once again, I'm not saying Saddam is right and that a war isn't justified. I'm merely saying that no country, not the US, not the UK, not China, nobody, should be allowed to circumvent the UN resolutions. Yet the US easily does it. And you don't call that corruption? I'd be rather happy if Saddam was killed. He is a terrible man.

And please, get your historical events accurate.
"Saddam has taken countless innocent lives unparalleled since Germany's Nazi actions of WWII"
What? Did you never learn about Stalin?

Speaking of corruption, you are satisfied that Iraqi military personnel that have been detained by the US are not covered by the Geneva Convention. And why is that? Rumsfeld says that since they were captured in 'civilian attire', they did not properly associate themselves with the Iraqi armed forces. Basically what that's saying, is these people are not POWs and the US can do what the like with them.

The thing that gets to me the most, is that the US has played this whole thing off as a 'war against terrorism'. The US looked towards Iraq because they were potentially able to develop nuclear weapons in the 'near' future. The thing that is well known and even verified by the CIA, is that Saddam doesn't sell his strategic weaponry. Now a nuclear weapon would be rather strategic, wouldn't you say? Yet the US claims Saddam would feed weapons of mass destruction to organizations such as Al Quida. Here's the part that angers me. North Korea has claimed to possess nuclear weapons that can reach the western borders of the US. The CIA has verified this as well. Yet the US has not made any action against N. Korea (aside from the embargo which has since been removed) nor plan on taking any action. The British have intercepted N. Korea missiles headed towards Egypt which were suspected of being sold to terrorists. Yet the US fears Saddam selling weaponry.

(I can see you have never encountered sarcasm before so I will make ever effort to keep my replies clear of such irony.)

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
David T
Retired Moderator
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 13:45
I'm neutral.

It's just the friendly fire that worries me. The americans have killed more brits than the iraqis (last time I checked - a while)? That' can't be good.

You are the th person to view this signature.
Programmers don't die, they just Gosub without return....
large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 05:38
If I remember correctly (which I probably don't), the largest casualty report from any given simultaneous Iraqi assault was 4. Oddly enough, the US blew up 7 reporters for no given reason.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.

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