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Geek Culture / '.MID' Vs '.WAV'

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 17:42
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I know that a lot of ppl have recently been talking about the differences
between WAV files and MIDI(MID). Everyone seems to think that WAV is better.
I however prefere MIDI because of its small size, plus you can use MIDI composers
to make cool songs, drum loops, and sound effects. MIDI does sound different on different
sound cards, but its the price you have to pay when you have over 20 mins of recordings.
For instance, If 1 minute of recording time with WAV uses up 352K of space with the lowest
possible quality, 20 minutes will be 7040K, which is over 6 Mbs. And thats only with an
8bit mono recording. A sterio recording would be twice the size, which is way to much
when people are supposed to download the games that have 20 mins of WAV recordings in it.
WAVs should only be used if the game is being sold on a CD and
then you would have enough space.

Look at the +s and -S of MIDI, then WAV:

MIDI: -------
+ Small file size
+ You can compose cool songs without having to have the real instruments
+ You can edit your songs if you dont like them
+ You can change the sounds used in songs too
- Songs sound different on different sound cards
Rating ****
-------------

WAV: -------
+ Every song sounds the same on every sound card
+ You can transpose whole songs with special programs
+ You can convert WAV to MP3
- Huge file size
- You can edit individual notes if you get one wrong
- You can quantize notes when they are in WAV

Rating: ***
------------

So I rate MIDI better than WAV because of those reasons. Other people may think differently
however. But WAV music should only be used in games that are stored on CD, because
they would take to long to put online and download.
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empty
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 18:07 Edited at: 19th Apr 2003 18:10
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Hardly any game uses WAV files for background music but for voices and sound effects. Some use ogg files or mp3 for music. All these formats (incl Standard Midi File) have one disadvantage: You can not smoothly crossfade (or mpre precise: you can't do on-beat transitions) between different tracks (enviromental music).

That's why many DirectX games use DirectMusic. Unfortunately the DM API is a bit illogical. None-the-less a DB(pro) DLL for SGT and DLS on my todo-list (but not on top).
SGTs (segmented files) are very much like Midi files with additional information (allows variation of repeating patterns) and DLS (Downloadable Soundbanks) make sure that the music sounds the same on every Computer.
An alternative to DirectMusic are MOD (tracker) files. It is also possible to do environmental music with them (see Van-Simple's tracker).

As for MIDI dying out (as heard several times): MIDI itself is a protocol/specifactaion to control Midi Devices. It will not die as it was NOT conceived for computer games but mainly for musicians who still use it and (since there's no alternative) will use it for a very long time in the future.

Ogres have layers.
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CloseToPerfect
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 18:12
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also for midi,
you can transpose whole songs with special programs
you can also convert mid to mp3

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Arrow
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 21:20
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Petrat, depending on what program you get, you can easily do anything to a wav/mp3/whatever that you could with a midi. On you point on downloading, only demos are likely to be downloadable. Full games are deffinately gonna be on CDs or DVDs, I doubt that you can put 13 levels of moderate grapics plus enemies, weapons and items (oh my) into a 10mb download.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 21:41
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It depends what type of music you want. I would never use wav for music though, to big! I'd stick to mp3/ogg if I wanted lyrics or live recordings, but midi files are great for small simple games

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 21:46
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Well actually, I dont call the Final Fantasy games small! they all use MIDIs! Anyway Arrow, with midi you can edit each note, with wav you would have to edit certaint frequencies and its impossible. I would like it if you (arrow) would not pass comments on something you obviously know nothing about

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 21:47
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an average song in a game is about 2 mins. Thats easily 3MB in MP3. just imagine having 5 MP3s like that in a game! It would take anyone ages to download (unless they have broadband)!

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Benjamin
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 21:50
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You can convert MIDI to MP3s which is great if you are using a game that goes on a CD, because then you have the space to use. But its always good to have MIDI because you can edit the actual song, notes in it, modulation, pitch bending, and loads of other stuff. I dont mean to annoy ppl, what MIDI is NOT dying! Everyone uses it guys! Its good for games that are gonna be downloaded. heck, even final fantasy 7,8,9 use them and they ARE on cd!

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 23:12
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petrat, I think it's you who dont fully understand the situation. I write mp3 music for anyone who asks, which is coverted from the raw .wav file.

And what you're saying makes no sense...you can't edit the notes of a wav song? What are you talking about? If you write the song, you write the notes, then you wouldn't need to edit it...

I write mp3 music professionally. I use several programs to do so. The very most basic is writing the notes. Then I put that through sound filters to make it sound realistic, and emotional. Then I mix those samples together and edit the levels to make a song worth hearing. You don't really understand this concept, if you make a wrong note, you just change it on the basic level, and then reinsert it back into the song. And do I need real instruments? NO! I have samples of each one which I can tone up or down to make a very quality sounding track. I would encourage you to listen to http://www.delvarworld.com/UnderlordMP3.mp3, a string and drum piece I wrote some 2 years ago. Could this have been done in midi? No. The dynamics of the instruments called for a more complicated medium.

And file size? My most recent song was a 4 minute funeral march type piece with organs and strings. The file size was slightly less than 1mb, with no loss in quality. Could I have used midi for this task? No, I specefically needed real sounds in the song, including voice clips, which midi cannot handle.

MIDI
+ very small file size
...yeah that's about it
- emotinally lacking
- different computers hear different things, if you dont pay for an expensive sound card you don't have good midi voices
- disturbingly repetitive and monotone sounding
- drums in midi sound terrible, there's no way around it

MP3/WAV
+ if you know what you're doing, emotionally strong
+ full range of any type of sound, and it can even play midi
+ every instrument and sound avaliable on God's green earth.
+ You can have lyrics, the best instrument of all.
+ You have a much larger range of sound control. You ever try putting a flanger on midi? No, no you haven't. How about simple reverb? wav can do it, Midi cant!
- Larger file size than MIDI (but not by much!)
- You're kinda right, you can't edit a finished song. But if you actually wrote the music, you already have it saved on the basic level, so you can edit that instead. So no, you're wrong.

Do you even write music? Have you ever written a MIDI track? Have you ever tried to write a fast paced song? Something with strong drums? I like a tune where I can put my feet on the subwoofer and get a foot massage. MIDI is disturbingly lacking there. It's just so plain...but something terrible inside tells me you won't listen to anything I say or that anyone else says, and you're going to stick with MIDI with false justifications.

And even so, 3MB isn't exactly large at all, and unless you're on a 56 no one's going to care how big it is. I would also assume if you have a 56k then you're not that much of a hardcore gamer anyway...

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 23:15
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it also sounds to me like you've been trying your wav recordings with the basic recorder from windows. And that makes me laugh.

Darken the skies, we are god
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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 19th Apr 2003 23:32
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"if you have a 56k then you're not that much of a hardcore gamer anyway..." -

Grrr BULLS**T!!!

lol sorry but you are on the UK forums and a laughable percentage of the UK is even able to recieve broadband, without a £200+ per month satalite system Sorry it just annoys me cos I soo need it and I can't get it. And there's no way I'm paying £30 a month to upgrade my 56k connection to 64k, which is the fastest my phone line will go on ISDN

Anyway yep Midi files are used in some big games. But other games recently would have not suited midi at all. Imagine playing Crazy Taxi, or GTA3 without the lyrics and genuine guitars/decent bass.

Midi suits rpgs in the sense it can produce very cool ambient and orchestral sounding tracks, but its not the best option for some other games. Its a case of using whats suitable for each project

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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 01:44 Edited at: 20th Apr 2003 01:48
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'MIDI
+ very small file size
...yeah that's about it
- emotinally lacking
- different computers hear different things, if you dont pay for an expensive sound card you don't have good midi voices
- disturbingly repetitive and monotone sounding
- drums in midi sound terrible, there's no way around it'

YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT MIDI. if you think its sounds terrible, ur sound card is crap. emotinally lacking? first learn to spell it right, and you CAN put a lot of emotion into a MIDI. U just dont know how.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 01:47
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Listen, you can get just as emotion from a MIDI that u can a digital piano (actually way more). I dont mean to be rude, and i dont want to be banned, but I just prefere MIDI..
If someone wants an MP3, then I'll record the MIDI into a WAV file then convert it to MP3, easy!
It doesnt sound monotone at all, unless you dont know how to make music.

I use professional software for recording wavs, including my own private programs.

P.S. i dont want to start a flame bait :-(

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 03:31
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I used Cakewalk for 2 years of my life, (which is probably your main program), and damn near threw it away when I discovered Sonic Foundary. I've heard mp3 music that brought me close to tears, but never a MIDI song like that. And trust me, if you've ever used Microsoft's 3dmm, you've heard enough MIDI's to kill a small elephant. But I would love to hear a song you consider to be quality MIDI.

And the 56k comment, I simply meant that most games target broadbanders, since pretty much all of them are online now.

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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 04:14
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looks like Rich gotta get busy with some enhancement, and start putting stuffs like:

[mp3]yoga_fire[/mp3]
[midi]yoga_flame[/midi]

either that, or we got another version of Raven vs Simple ..
.. in Sound aspect, of course

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 05:13
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The best thing to use is what sounds right for the job surely, with tracker progs you can get more versatile than with midi, but if you design your own soundfonts you can get pretty similar results with midi anyhow. Small file size is definitely an issue for those of us with 56k but personally when I use midi I'm always using at least custom soundfonts or a vst plugin which outputs audio in a wav file.
If only everyone had a soundcard which supported soundfonts I'd do everything that way just for sound quality, but as is I can't stand the thought of stuff I write being played back on like an adlib card with crappy fm synthesis. Although, if you write specifically for fm synths you can make some funny stuff The .mod tracker gets my vote in the end.

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
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Arrow
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 08:24
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Petrat, do you even know what you're talking about? FF VII was the last FF to use any remotely like a MIDI. I think most people know that most of the time consoles use thier own formats that are way different than computer formats. Lol, if you think they really used MIDIs in the FF series try getting an MIDI of "One Winged Angel" or "Liberi Fatali" that sounds anything like the game. Hell, even go back to NES quality music and you'll note the differance between it and MIDIs.

Since You're making these for other people why do you care if they can't edit them? In fact I'ld want them not to be able to edit them so they can't change one or two notes and claim they did the whole thing.

Anyway I agree with Quoth on this, if you think you can top Wav/Mp3 quality with an MIDI, prove it. How about you two have a contest to see which is the better format. Do three tracks, two minutes each, first would be piano to equally test emotional content. The second would be something up beat, and the third would be up to the artist. What do you think, this would be a great way to prove the better format.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 12:59
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Actually FF7 FF8 and FF9 used MIDI. and the theme where aeris dies, it almost brought me to tears.:.-(

Ok, I'll record something on the piano into MIDI, and do the same with MP3, ok?

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 14:01
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That's ridiculous, You can record a bloody orchestra and convert that to .mp3, and have it sound to the untrained ear just the same as a .wav. With midi you'll always be limited to the quality the wavetable playing it back can produce, and even the best vst plugin can't make a violin sound like a violin, this is such an unfair compo

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 16:01 Edited at: 20th Apr 2003 16:02
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tut, well, its stupid saying that MIDI music hasnt got feeling, because all the FF7 8 and 9 stuff was MIDI, and that was great music. anything you can play on the piano, you can record on MIDI with the same sounds. You can make a violin sound like a violin, if you have a good MIDI composer. sonar is a load of crap, and not profressional, and thats why U cant compose good emotional music, coz u use that.

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 17:02 Edited at: 20th Apr 2003 17:12
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who uses sonar?
Look fyi I use a guitar, piano, organ, drums and imagination to make my music with. To record it I use either 1" 8 track tape or cubase VST 5.1, and when I've got a bit of free studio time chalked up (I work in a recording studio occasionally) I'll record on 2" 24 track and/or pro tools at 96k 24bit.
Sounds like you've got a bit to learn about makin' music, but I'm interested to see what you come up with...

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 20:15
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Well, I dont seem to have a drum kit so that would be too hard to do..
I think youve got a lot to learn about music, and MIDI if you think its crap. U cant say its crap when youve never fully used it..i use a digital keyboard with a MIDI cable, so obviously u dont..

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Arrow
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 21:26
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Well, we got one side done, Quote can you take up the challange?

Petrat, the PS1 used it's own formates, midi wasn't one of them, show me one song in MIDI form that percaetly matches the game.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 21:34
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Good grief children! MIDI and WAV are not comparable, they are two TOTALLY different formats. One holds the raw data for a sound file, one holds the instrument number, and the notes to be played on that instrument. Amazing results can be achieved with both, as well as not so amazing results. They may both result in sound, but they are too different IMHO to compare.

Petrat... you have an obvious bias towards MIDI. Sure you can get great sounding music with MIDI, and it's small, easily editable etc etc. But no one in their right mind would use WAV for background music, as it usually results in a huge file. WAV is perfect for sound clips, short bursts of music, etc. but not ten minutes of background music. So please don't compare them in this regard.

The rest of you, WAV is a perfect recording, so it sounds the same on all comps. It is also large, although there are ways of compressing it. It has it's advantages as well but do you understand what I mean when I say you can't compare the two? MP3 and WAV you can compare, but MIDI and WAV are two completely different things.

On another note, I wish you would stop (all of you who are guilty of this) telling others they don't know what they are talking about. Do you know these people personally? Do you know what they've experianced? Do you know what they have accomplished? No. So what gives you the right to say they don't know what they are talking about?

And rediculous comments are.. well... rediculous. Like "And even so, 3MB isn't exactly large at all, and unless you're on a 56 no one's going to care how big it is. I would also assume if you have a 56k then you're not that much of a hardcore gamer anyway..." (Sorry to pick on just you Quothe, but this is the most rediculous one that is handy )
Who are you to assume that? Some people can't get broadband etc etc etc. It's just the stupidest statement I've heard in a while! It serves no purpose, it helps nothing... there isn't any reason to put it in.

Ok I've said my bit. You can go on with your little "debate" here.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 21:56
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The Kitty Speaks! All Hail the Kitty!

MIAOW!


Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Benjamin
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Posted: 20th Apr 2003 22:56
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thank you raps. Ya know, you are the only person who manged not to have a go at anyone here, and you actually explained something that made sense, whichi is more than ive been doing
Im just crap at explaining things!

Arrow: hehe, you dont know much do you?
the format on the playstation is like midi, but encodeded specialy as a format for the playstation, so no1 can steal the music from a playstation CD. duh..

Ok, I do say some stupid things, but i know about these things

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Arrow
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 00:36
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Once again I say show me a MIDI that sound like the game. Back in the NES era you programed the music, after that they made there own tools to do thier bidding. Untill you show me some real prove, just drop it. You a far too stuborn for some who has no clue.

Raps, I think the main point was being that MIDIs are child's play when compaired to MP3s, WAVs, and any other sound format. Like you said there is no contest between the two. Personally, I'm not gonna make 1000 poly characters, advanced AI, possible voice overs, and then ruin it with MIDI music. Since most of us are working on tring to get our games to look their best, wht would we settle for music that is worst than the sound effects? Yes, MIDIs are nice when you have a limited amount of memory and when you don't mind the quality, but for my project I want something that won't get anyoing after the third time listening to it.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 01:46
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actually, MP3 can get anoying too... you r so stupid if u think FF music is crap. I will prove my point very soon..

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morfeus
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 01:53
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Quote: "MIDI itself is a protocol/specifactaion to control Midi Devices"


precisely! that's why comparing raw .mid files to .wav format is useless. the .mid file is not supposed to be played through your regular SBLive!, unless it (the soundcard, that is) has a really awesome wavetable sampleset. you can also toy with soundfonts, but it's quite hard a work building one from scratch - after you find (or record) all the samples you need.

if you own a keyboard/synthetiser though, you know what to do.

Quote: "Could this have been done in midi? No. The dynamics of the instruments called for a more complicated medium."


welllll, check this out, then:

http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/553/berzemon.html

it's my friend's symphonic black metal (mhuh) project he composed using only a close-to-a-nearly-semi-professional Yamaha PSR530 synthetiser & the shareware version of Winjammer. yes, those are all .mids, recorded to .wavs & encoded to .mp3s.

as you can hear it's possible to make a nice sounding piece of .mid, if you have any device suitable to play this .mid with.

so there. midi is all around us, it just doesn't sound like adlib bleeps or 11KB violin sample.



i understand, however, it's all about size (hmmm, it DOES matter, after all), so i'd point to the obvious solution - .ogg; the best compression/quality rate, even at lower bitrates. it may boost high frequencies a bit, but it's not that noticeable.

the second option is .mo3 format (.it/.xm/.s3m/.mod with compressed samples). you can write songs utilizing really hifi, realistic instruments and not be worried about the filesize; you can pack the whole game soundtrack into one file, if it frequently uses the same instruments. you can also use DirectX Media Objects or VST plugins (the latter can be a problem, not everyone has them installed) to add realtime effects like reverb, chorus &c., bearing in mind they're quite cpu-time hungry.

anyway, have you ever played unreal or unreal tournament? the soundtracks of both games consist of .it,.xm & even archaic .s3m modules with no fancy effects & they still manage to sound good, don't they?

sadly, tracker progs are by no means professional music makers, the sound mixing being the main problem. even renoise, which has great potential, won't help it, as the .rns format doesn't appear to be system-independent (vst-wise), just like .mid.

ok. got it off my chest. now, wink wink, nudge nudge, you can visit my site & download some of my songs; they're all tracked with fast tracker 2 or modplug tracker.

http://morghlith.prv.pl/
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 02:02
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oh boy... you two don't learn : :-s

Let's deconstruct these posts shall we?

"Raps, I think the main point was being that MIDIs are child's play when compaired to MP3s, WAVs, and any other sound format."
Midi are childsplay eh? Sure, even I can make em. Does that mean they are good? No. I have heard many midi songs, many sound very midi-ish. But then there are the truely talented people who make amazing Midis. I'm talking songs that you can't tell from WAV or MP3 songs, on most sound cards anyway. The format is amazing, the theory behind it is sound (no pun intended), the only problem is hardware, and the person making the music.

"Like you said there is no contest between the two. Personally, I'm not gonna make 1000 poly characters, advanced AI, possible voice overs, and then ruin it with MIDI music."
True, you probably wouldn't because if you were going to all that trouble, your gonna have CPU power and Hard disk space to spare for great sounding music. But that doesn't mean MIDI can't sound good.

"Since most of us are working on tring to get our games to look their best, wht would we settle for music that is worst than the sound effects?"

Final Fantasy 7 used midi for sound and music. Why? Saves space, saves time, saves processing power. Of course the hope is that the music does sound better than the sound effects, but the problem is not limited to MIDI.

"Yes, MIDIs are nice when you have a limited amount of memory and when you don't mind the quality, but for my project I want something that won't get anyoing after the third time listening to it."

Actually, MIDI songs can be just as repetative as MP3 or WAVs. It's all in the person who made the music. Quality is not an issue with a good MIDI artist. Same with those who prefer WAV or MP3.

BTW, just a side note but MP3 is not an option for smaller developers, because once you hit sales beyond 5000 copies, you owe royalties for using the format... WAV is royalty free but hard on disk space.

"actually, MP3 can get anoying too... you r so stupid if u think FF music is crap. I will prove my point very soon.."

True. It's a difference of opinion, theres no need to call anyone stupid. Good. (in that order lol)

"Arrow: hehe, you dont know much do you?"
Jeez you ppl... you missed the point of my post

"the format on the playstation is like midi, but encodeded specialy as a format for the playstation, so no1 can steal the music from a playstation CD. duh.."

True, but I doubt you could steal the music easily anyway...

Alex Wanuch
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 02:49
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You insolent fools! How dare u make Lord Kitty speaks twice!
Thor, punish 'em both with ur thunder strike!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 02:56
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the challenge eh? sorry, I can't actually do it. I have 4 people in front of me who want me to write songs for them already. Two want techno, one wants trance, and one wants calliope. Now that I'm thinking about it, petrat, is anyone asking you to write music for them? My digital mp3 writing has gotten me some fame...how bout you?

And "morfeus" (I'm assuming you know that's the wrong spelling), thanks for the offer, but I'm not exactly willing to submit all of my personal information to download a small sound clip...

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
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morfeus
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 04:13 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 04:14
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yea, yea, i'm aware it's not the English spelling; you don't have to reveal your true personal info, you know, you can enter whatever you wish there. it's annoying, but you'd have to do it only once. & there are three full songs there, no clips. so, if you have some spare time...

i listened to your song; nice melody, the structure is ok, the strings sound too artificial for my taste, though. plus i don't really see why it's labeled 'classical'. where can i find more of your productions? i scanned the web, but there's nothing apart from underlord mirrored on acidplanet. i'd be grateful if you provided me with some links.
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 04:33
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Solidious Snake is correct, I should not have to speak more than once, and this is the third time I have been forced to quell this little testosterone filled fight. I hereby give SS a promotion! He is now my official yes man. (Round of applause)

"the challenge eh? sorry, I can't actually do it. I have 4 people in front of me who want me to write songs for them already. Two want techno, one wants trance, and one wants calliope. Now that I'm thinking about it, petrat, is anyone asking you to write music for them? My digital mp3 writing has gotten me some fame...how bout you?"
WTF does it matter? If your writting music for fame... good for you. Others are not as shallow. Please respect that! For one thing, I wanted music from Petrat. Unfortunately, my project was too time constrictive, and it just didn't work.

"And "morfeus" (I'm assuming you know that's the wrong spelling), thanks for the offer, but I'm not exactly willing to submit all of my personal information to download a small sound clip..."

I agree
why should anyone have to fill out anything? It's useless and stupid and.. ya.


This whole discussion has gone from an innocent debate (albiet a little misguided...) to a full blown which/who is better sub-flame war. You guys are fighting over who's metaphorical penis is larger. It's rediculous.

Next.

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 05:04
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I don't write music for fame, I write music because I love to do it. I can sit at a piano for hours just because I can. Fame is a good side note...but it's not what drives me.

and morf, you will have your links by tomorrow evening at the latest. Underlord is currently my only uploaded song

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 07:02 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 07:04
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Quoth: That's good to know

I play alto sax, wish I didn't quit piano tho, sax is great and all but piano is fun too. Well no time right now, I'm stuck in school, then three hours each day after lighting up the school play

Anyway, have we gotten over MIDI and WAV yet?

Alex Wanuch
aka rapscaLLion
Kousen Dev Progress >> Currently Working On Editors
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 07:09
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how bout we all just agree on mp3 and be done with it

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
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Arrow
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 08:10
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Agreed.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 14:28 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 18:38
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OMG, this is so amazing. I showed my dad the sheet music for Melodies Of Life from FF9 and its in like the hardest key to play in....and he played it! OMG, I have to record him playing this!
He obviosly didnt play it at the same speed strait away because he had never played it before. Wow. I will put up a MIDI version of his recording soon. MIDI of course, is small in size, and it can have whatever effects you can have on the keyboard like modulation, pitch bending on, but of course u need a MIDI cable and special adapter to like the PC and the digital piano...which ive got, so...

Always has, never will
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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 14:33
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'I don't write music for fame, I write music because I love to do it. I can sit at a piano for hours just because I can. Fame is a good side note...but it's not what drives me.'

Yeah, thats how I feel. I'm really happy that I can play the piano and I always love to learn new stuff. When no1 is in the house i usually turn up the digital piano to full blast and play some FF9 stuff..or FF7 of course. I do sorta like the fact that if I do music for games, my name will be in the credits, but I do love spending hours of one peice, then listening it back later..

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 17:48
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For the record petrat, I think you may have misunderstood my posts.
I was actually trying to help your case before you flamed me, and having worked in a recording studio for 10 years I find your comments utterly ridiculous.
Anyhow back to what I was trying to get across:

If you make your own soundfont, anyone with a soundblaster compatible soundcard from awe32 upwards, will be able to reproduce the sounds you create yourself.
Soundfonts are basically compressed .wav files, and all your midi triggered sounds are actually a sample if played from a wavetable.
If you use a tone generator like a midi synth, the sounds are generated in realtime by the hardware, but this is not the case with a pc soundcard, except that it can add effects in realtime to either wavetable or .wav sounds as in the case of eax.
I was basically giving you the advice, that you can (at least on the machines that support soundfonts, which means every machine with a soundcard that supports eax like the soundblaster range from 'live value' and up, will play back midi data (which is actually just note on note off information with some velocity and modulation) through it's wavetable, as the name suggests a table of .wav files. You can replace the factory presets with your own, so you can kind of have the best of both worlds if you know what you're doing.
If you want to learn, and believe me you need to, you need to be less impatient with people, and consider reading things more carefully before reacting so childishly.
Like I said before, making music is done mostly in the head, secondly it is performed on an instrument, and can be recorded, using microphones and a recording medium like a hard disk or tape. When you record midi information, You are simply recording the velocity, pressure and length of key presses, this information can then be modulated using algorithms like modulation of frequency etc, the end result can be read by software and used to switch on/off samples in a wavetable.
The same exact midi information could easily be used to move a robot arm, and is frequently used in motion control/capture.
So you see, midi is just a protocol, whereas .wav and it's compressed versions are actual sound waves stored as data. Anyone who knows studio technique can tell you that recording sound from an actual instrument introduces so many and varied harmonics from the room reflections/reverb, microphone frequency response and most of all, player's expressivity that the richness of sound can never be equalled by a tiny sample in a wavetable. This is not open to debate, it is scientific fact. Midi makes up for this limitation in portability, and the ability to change voices of recorded information simply.
This is why there is no contest between the two formats, but they each have their advantages

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 18:37
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oh, I didnt realise. sorry Danmatsuma

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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 18:45
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No harm done

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 20:04
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Quote: "This is why there is no contest between the two formats, but they each have their advantages "


Nicely put man.

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Benjamin
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 20:56
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yeah, nice one

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large_nostril
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 06:24
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Raps is right, the two aren't comparable. Nonetheless, they still have advantages over one another, which everyone else has pretty much pointed out.

Snake, what's up with you and the code box?

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
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heartbone
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 07:11
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A MIDI file played on a decent computer soundcard is actually an advanced synthesizer playback.

A generation ago people were filling concert halls to see masters like Wendy Carlos and Dick Hyman on the MOOG.

Now we can do it at home and distribute the performances to a world wide audience!

I hear the tunes in my head but don't know how to get them out. Does anyone know a link to decent and user friendly cheap or free midi composition software?

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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Arrow
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 07:59
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I think you just need to learn the music scale, trust me I got the same problem. I got a great sond thought up, but a end up fishing for the note and forget the melody.

Quote: "Snake, what's up with you and the code box?"
No joke, it's getting really anyoing.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 08:36
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You dont mean Wendy Carlos, you mean Walter Carlos

and I only noticed the code box because you mentioned it...

Darken the skies, we are god
http://www.DelvarWorld.com
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EdzUp
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 22:16
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Wavs for sounds and ogg/mp3 for music. Midi's are good for nothing because of the sound different/distortion on lower end cards.

-EdzUp
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