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Geek Culture / MMORPG discussion

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MikeS
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 03:15 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 03:16
This topic will contain one or two different ideas.

First...
Are there any good mmorpg games out on the market now worth buying??
Everquest,Shadowbane,Dark Age of Camelot,etc.?

Which of them are worth my money?????????????

Second...
What do you think about creating a mmorpg with Dbp/db??

Now I'm not saying I am gonna make one, that's not even the point of this post, but just write what you feel.

Wanna find more about mmorpg? check out for a listing of mmorpg, and a forum board of others ideas.

http://www.mmorpg.net/phpbb/index.php?c=1

(Current)-making plans for 2d fighter-
(progress)-Should have demo in 6 months latest-
(misc.)-All other projects cancelled for now-
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 03:28 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 03:29
Quote: ".. just write what you feel."


i wish somebody would create a simple tutorial about it (from start until finish) to run on DBP

if there is one already done (in DBP), a link to it is most appreciated

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

MikeS
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 03:39 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 03:41
No doubt doing a mmorpg is one of the hardest, if not the hardests tasks in gaming.Especially if you want to make a good one.

There's all kinds of problems such as,

team killing on purpose
boring
game focuses on leveling up.
language(Comes in every any online game)

BUT the worst problem is that I may like a boring game where you level up and kill other players,and then curse at them, but you may not.

Even to avoid something like cursing is hard and troublesome.

If you wanted to block a word and replace it with *'s you could do so.Only problem is that every time a player says something the game has to check to make sure it's not one of those swear words.That slows down the game fps, plus you already have 100s or 1000s of players, along with the 56k modem players that makes things more laggy and difficult.
(No offense, I use to have 56k modem, but i LUV my Cable!!)

I got a little to much into the topic, but this shows why mmorpg's are very hard to create, and maintain.

Did I mention how much servers cost??(jk, I'll stop)

(or will I )

(Current)-making plans for a game-
(progress)-Should have demo in 6 months latest-
(misc.)-All other projects cancelled for now-
Arrow
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 05:52
Yeah, no joke. It seams like we get at least 2 or 3 team request for a MMORPG or a MMOG a week. I think you should have to at least have made one complete game (not some pong rip-off, a real game, at least 2 hours to beat) before you should even think about making a MMOG.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
Armeggadon
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 06:18
well i play mmorpg but im more into the free downloadable ones(i used to be addicted to a game called tibia(http://www.tibia.com my username was arm kin incase anyone else was on there). i dont play hardly at all anymore as im trying to learn how to program my own game now. my best friend is into all the action/RTS games(warcraft, command and conquer-gods & generals,cant think of anymore offhand) oh well i dont really look to creating an mmorpg/g at all becasue if i did think about it it would probably end as only a 1 plater basic rpg. oh well. i ended abruptly but no matter. *yawn* time for me to go to sleep goodnight all.

Current Status: small FPS project for a friend(if it looks good in the end may become a demo)
I consider myself: newb
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 21st Apr 2003 12:40 Edited at: 21st Apr 2003 12:50
I play Everquest, i'm a long way into the game too, however it is a very expensive pursuit. Sony release expansions at an alarming rate (2 since christmans) and ontop of the account subscription that sure adds up, doubly so for me as I run 2 accounts at once (I have two hands and 2 computers so why not !?).

The game is extremely shallow and the AI more primitive than a bemused slug. So why do I play it?

It's a social game. I've met friends through EQ and gone to wild parties (well 1 wild weekend and 1 hello how are you) and i've enjoyed the time i've spent chatting to people. I've even met a Yank who came all the way over the pond just to meet the gang. Many of my RL friends are EQ players (friends from before EQ I should stress, and a few new friends since).

The game itself is a bit like playing pool in the pub - it's a distraction whilst socialising and gives a common topic to chat about whilst you break down the barriers.

As for writting one, i'd actually love too and feel more than capable of doing so.

However the big barrier for me is server support. To run an MMORG requires a server which requires funds, needing funds meens you must charge players money and that meens the server must run 24 hours a day which meens it needs someone watching it 24 hours a day... You also need to maintain and update the product itself in order to maintain your user base which is creatively limiting.

The financial commitment to maintaining an MMORG is huge (from the point of view of a non-professional programmer) and one that I am not able to make.

If I was, i'd already have written an MMORG. Infact a game i'm working on right now could work pretty well as an MMORG with a quick plot change and a few new models.

It's not terribly hard to write one if you consider the application properly and set about what you need to do in an organised method such as writting your movement code to be network-game friendly and so on.

EDIT: PS, I'm Pneumatic Dryll, a 59th level epic cleric with 10AA on the Xev server. My name is in no way a crude and immature suggestion of extra-marital procedures.

If you do start EQ i'd recommend the Xev server because the high end guilds get on well with each other making it a friendly place where co-operation is in place of disputes and because of that Kerafym is unlikely ever to be awoken. (significant once you get to the end game).

Pneumatic Dryll, Outrageous epic cleric of EQ/Xev
God made the world in 7 days, but we're still waiting for the patch.
MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:02
So I think we can all agree that making a mmorpg is almost foolish unless you have a team of at least 20 people.
(Even that's the bare miniumum.)

(Current)-making plans for a game-
(progress)-Should have demo in 6 months latest-
(misc.)-All other projects cancelled for now-
CorruptionsMyth
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:11
confused---may seem like a newbie question-well i am a newbie

what is mmorpg-i know rpg is reading progress game but what does the mmo stand for?

Solidz Snake
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:21 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2003 02:28
MMORPG = Mary's Mom On Rampage, Please Getlost

... either that or Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game ...

yet, i could be wrong
>> anybody else wanna have a go on MMORPG?

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

andrew11
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:21
RPG dosen't mead "reading progress game"
It means:

Massive
Multiplayer
Online
Role
Playing
Game

All programmers are playwrights and all computers are lousy actors." -Anon.
CorruptionsMyth
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:27
oh yeah duh!where did i get reading progress game from-so diablo2 is a mmorpg?

http://www.corruptionsmyth.cjb.com
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"Death is only the beginning"
MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:34
mmorpg are more considered online rpg's with thousands of people playing at once.Yeah I guess you could consider diablo2 as an mmorpg, but most would just call it an rpg with multiplayer mode.

(Current)-making plans for a game-
(progress)-Should have demo in 6 months latest-
(misc.)-All other projects cancelled for now-
CorruptionsMyth
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:38
why just rpg with multiplayer mode- everytime i sign on b.net on diablo 2 there is way more than 1000 people on playing games

http://www.corruptionsmyth.cjb.com
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Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:38
Actually RPG means Role Playing Game...

And I'm a bit unsure if it's Massive or Massively. Thought it was Massively for years, but quick search of internet seems to sugest both are applicible. Grief, I'll go to sleep now. Was so much easier when MUD was pretty much all there was.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Dazzag
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:40
Oooh... do a MUD. Go on, would be a hell of a lot easier/ cheaper.... and I would like it...

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
CorruptionsMyth
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:40
oh and to answer your question yellow i would suggest renting the games you suggested(if they have other versions of them on different platforms and if you own the playforms) because i know everquest has versions on playstation and i have been looking into trying it too- since i heard it was better than diablo and also diablo2 is getting boring because i have gotten too rich on that game so its too easy

http://www.corruptionsmyth.cjb.com
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"Death is only the beginning"
CorruptionsMyth
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:41
<----and guyver rules(even though barely anyone in usa knows about him

http://www.corruptionsmyth.cjb.com
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"Death is only the beginning"
Arrow
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:42
Basicly if you can host the game, it's probably not a MMOG (Massive Mutiplayer Online Game). The bid deal with them is to have massive amounts of people playing at once, DBPro can handle 256 players at once, I think. This would be a good start for a MMOG, but if you're looking to make something par to Everquest, you're better off programing in C++.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 02:43
mmorpg has 1000s of players playing on the same server at the same times corruptionsmyth.Diablo has like 4-8 ppl playing on one server(i think).

The 1000s of ppl you see on battle.net are the total people online playing.
(I don't think diablo 2 is mmorpg, but i've never played D2 just Diablo)

Hope this clears things up a little.

(Current)-making plans for a game-
(progress)-Should have demo in 6 months latest-
(misc.)-All other projects cancelled for now-
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 03:02
Quote: "but if you're looking to make something par to Everquest, you're better off programing in C++."


Actually you'd be suprised. Each Everquest server typically supports about 2,500 players but it is actually a stack of nearly 50 machines, each machine running around 3 locations in the game, and typically each location doesn't go over 100 users although there appears to be no technical limit. By combining busy locations with barely travelled locations servers are generally only supporting about 150 players.

If you had the same hardware infrastructure but wrote your server code in DBPro I don't think you'd have any speed issues with the bandwidth because of the language.

The biggest fear i'd have is actually player-hacking, port scanning and aim-bot style programs. Diablo is a prime example of how this spoils online gaming.

I'll never forget the time I was watching my mate play Diablo online and somebody used the phreak to cast spells in town and attack him. My mate logged off and came back into the game with a fresh character then literally just swapped the characters over in revenge, leaving this guy who'd cheated with a brand new character having totally lost his now permanently deleted high level character with all his gear.

Rough justice and amusing sure, but what if there's a dispute in your MMORG and somebody hacks into your server and deletes the other players account? If you are charging for the service thats a big embarassement, and let me tell you some of those hackers out there are good.

Even in EQ I was once involved in a hacking war when a rival guild decided to break open my guilds message boards and read our officership posts. We had to delete the forum and work by email meenwhile I had to do the same to them and tell them what was in their forum just so that they would realise they wheren't the only ones who could and stopped doing it. Luckily ezboard is much more secure these days.

For some people, they'll play the game purely for the purpose of hacking it or finding exploits - they arn't even interested in the game itself.

Pneumatic Dryll
Solidz Snake
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 03:40
CorruptionsMyth:
yup, Guyver Rulez!
(oops, non-related post!)

anyway:

hacking to cheat = chicken
hacking to learn = now thats a different story!

Comments?

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

Armeggadon
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 05:50
well i have varied views(please dont take offense to this post as im sure some will want to do)

yes i will admit i've "hacked" a game before(thats what everyone called but it was more of cracking an admins password and sending myself several rare, high priced items(Hacking is actually breaking into the server through varied tecniques *cough* and changing/vandalizing data))

HOWEVER i did the cracking for more than just personal gain(yes i did want more money in the game but thats beside the point ... kinda) anyway i did the cracking more or less for bragging rights. but i also did so and afterwards learned MUCH about what the admins actually go through to keep a game safe. it is interesting to see what admin does to keep the game up-to-date and the commands they need to check a server for bugs/bug abusers/cheaters. it is quite a handful.

though i also dislike cheaters(not hate becasue i still consider myself one) i can understand the lengths some people go through to actually cheat. for example on the game i was talking about above called tibia. someone created a cheat in directX to help gain skills faster. i actually placed myself in a lot of trouble figuring out how the program worked and how admin would detect it. but it was interesting at the same time becasue there were so many cases of "cheaters" when they weren't actually cheating. so the programmers had to put codes into the game to constantly check areas for specific cheating parameters. the main one(which is the one i was trying) was a program to enhance fishing skill. i asked how the program was made from the creator and he just told me that it used macros(easy enough) and then i asked admin in the game how they would detect it. they told me that becasue they cant always be around to watch everyone they place code into water to check how often one area is fished. if its fished more than say 20 times a second then obviously whoever is casting that rod is cheating right ... wrong. there was a case where about 30 people were sitting on the bank fishing. almost half of them got banned. so then they had to add code to detect how many people were actually in a specific area around the spot that was being fished. it was vey interesting and i think hacking/cracking/bug abusing/ is bad but can be used to learn about how someone programmed something and some problems that can be avoided in the future.

ok i know that post wasn't as much on my personal opinion about hacking but i still touched on it. anyways i believe hacking can be beneficial and a learning experience at the same time.wow what i wrote that whole post i just summarized in 1 line. oh well *yawn

Current Status: small FPS project for a friend(if it looks good in the end may become a demo)
I consider myself: newb
The admiral
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 07:26
Heh theres nothing simple about it to write a tutorial on.

[href]www.vapournet.com/~flyer[/href]
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 22nd Apr 2003 11:05
Quote: "i believe hacking can be beneficial and a learning experience at the same time"


I'm still not sure what was actually learned in your example though - certainly the only thing to come out of it was a hacker got some cool stuff and extra fishing skill and some legitimate users where banned. That is what you learned?

Hacking is a scurge on games, there is no benefit to the game itself and the community that plays it when applied in this manner.

I understand the point you where trying, in a way similar to the work I did on EA's Dark Omen or even in EQ where I extracted mapping information to create 3D previews of areas not yet travelled or show players part of the game they'd never be able to get too.

An attempt to make a benefit to the player by extracting information from within the source or data files. Your example above does not show you have learned this lesson. It appears to have been to the detriment to the overall community.

Pneumatic Dryll
Armeggadon
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2003 00:12 Edited at: 23rd Apr 2003 00:12
Quote: "Your example above does not show you have learned this lesson. It appears to have been to the detriment to the overall community."


after i look at it yes it does doesn't it. oh well.

Current Status: small FPS project for a friend(if it looks good in the end may become a demo)
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Shadow
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2003 14:58
If someone doesn't like playing a game without cheating they should play a different game, as it obviously doesn't entertain them enough.
Arrow
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2003 18:52
Some cheats are cool, like ones that open up part that were never finished, kinda like the area across the dam in Goldeneye for N64. But yeah, most of the time cheats are real anyoing, that can suck the fun right out of a game.

The Legend of Zelda IS NOT an RPG! It's an Adventure, just like Ico or Dark Cloud.
Armeggadon
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 04:28
the only game that cheats always make it more fun is the grand theft auto games. cheats are fun in those games

Current Status: small FPS project for a friend(if it looks good in the end may become a demo)
I consider myself: newb
bitJericho
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 06:48
only cuz u can kill things easier LOL...

The 3D Modeler's Group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3dModeler/
The Unofficial DB Newsgroup : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMag/
Armeggadon
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Posted: 25th Apr 2003 04:40
lol yep

Current Status: small FPS project for a friend(if it looks good in the end may become a demo)
I consider myself: newb

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