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Geek Culture / C++ and where to get it?

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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 23rd Apr 2003 23:58
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Hi,

I've had DB Classic and DB Pro for about 2 years now and am looking to move on to C++.
But, (Here comes the problem) I haven't a clue where to find it, how much it is or anything. Could anyone tell me?

Thanx.
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David T
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 00:52
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There is no "C++". It's like BASIC, there are many versions.

You could try Borland C++ builder (I think that's the name) or MS Visual C++. You may be able to find a free compiler on the web.

You are the th person to view this signature.
Programmers don't die, they just Gosub without return....
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 01:56
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Microsoft Visual C++ you can get from Amazon.co.uk/.com for £80/$140

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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hexGEAR
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 02:11
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since where in the topic, do you think it's better to start from scratch, in other words create your own game engine using c++ or just use/buy and existing engine, learn c++ and use the engine to make games. See i was taking a look at the Torque engine just the other day, it's free and it's industry proven (used to make tribes 2) i was wondering if learning c++ and getting this engine (which come with all source and can be updated by you to suit your game) is the better than starting from scratch and re-inventing the wheel?

everyday of life is a new chapter that has already been fortold but is up to the soul to capture.
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Chiwawa
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 02:20
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you just need a text editor..and "FreeCommandLineTools" from borland....

its a free C/C++ compiler

ill search the url..for u..wait
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Chiwawa
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 02:33 Edited at: 24th Apr 2003 02:35
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ftp://ftpd.borland.com/download/bcppbuilder/freecommandLinetools.exe
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 03:11
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depends what you want to achieve Hex
personally i don't like to use engines other than those i've developed or helped develop myself - as for me, its hard to adapt to another guys coding style or add to it without it confusing me somewhere along the way.
but thats just me, i mean its quicker to use an engine - but then if i wanted speedy development i wouldn't be using DirectX ... my philisophy anyways

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Puffy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 03:13
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Quote: "Microsoft Visual C++ you can get from Amazon.co.uk/.com for £80/$140"



NO NO NO! BAD CHOICE REALLY BAD... o_O get code warrior... or dev c++... or borland.... O_O

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 03:59
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If you're looking to create game engines in C++ prepare to take a few college level courses to do so, the math involved is boggeling. You have a blank screen, and you have to program it, among other things, to turn the screen into 3d. No little "make object sphere" in C++, you have to program how to DRAW a sphere. Then back face removal, then coloring, then texturing, it's not something you want to do with only one person, and it is insanely difficult to make a visually pleasing game. As a programming language, it's probably the most powerful for windows next to unix and linux, but a combination of crazy syntax (forget a semicolon and freeze your computer), the steep learning curve, and the VERY heavy math and logic orientation (especially for game engines), don't turn to it as an altertintave to DB, that's for sure.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 04:31
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Visual C++ isn't a bad choice, you just dont' like it puffy - and it is getting very annoying that you don't.

it's got the largest support base, it's highlighting and inline code help as well as the sidebar workspace make it a damn'd sight easier and more friendly to use than any other IDE on the planet!
add to this when you add in more libraries it'll highlight and add the support for thier functions as you add the appropriote headers which makes it even easier to use.

it also contains alot of Microsoft Only enhancements making it a damn'd sight easier to program for the Mircosoft Windows Operating System Environments.
but it is also has fully legacy Compatibility, Codewarrior Compatibility, Borland Compatibility ... a wide range of multiplatform libraries at its disposal ... self associating SDK installations.

i swear it is probably the easiest and by far the best choice for a beginner C/C++ programmer!
especially as it setups up workspaces which keeps your projects in a form in which you can understand where all of the code actually is rather than having to remember, which is a blasted godsend on larger projects - but also allows you to spread out the code more when developing so you have small snippets all over the place making it easier to manage specific section and find bugs.

there isn't a way in hell i'd recommend any of the other C++ versions to a beginner!

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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Puffy
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 07:42
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Quote: "Visual C++ isn't a bad choice, you just dont' like it puffy - and it is getting very annoying that you don't.

i swear it is probably the easiest and by far the best choice for a beginner C/C++ programmer!"


I agree and I agree... o_O BUT!... if your really serious about C++ then you need a professional compiler... VC++ does too much for you... O_O My C++ teacher agrees (remember Raven I took C++ instead of learning more outta da book)...

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 10:42
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Puffy, i am adding you to my MSN now.

Be Prepared !

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 12:10
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Well I' not planning to replace DB, I'm gunna create software with C++ and continue with games using DB.

God, I never knew that there was different types of C++, So can anyone tell me where to get the best version.

Thanx.

P.S. I don't want the microsoft visual one.

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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 12:12
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ar sorry didn't realise that rich had given a web adress.

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Superbeest
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 13:11
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I use Bloodshed Dev-C++. Works perfectly and is for free.
You can get it here: http://www.bloodshed.net/
Multiple languages, easy to install and easy to update. Works fast and is reliable. Includes compiler and editor.
Also includes libraries and other stuff.
Works best with me.
Download size 14 mb

By steel will thy flesh divide
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 13:26
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me tooooooo

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 15:00
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puffy if you serious about learning C++ then it doesnt' matter which one you start with becuase you should learn from the beginning the actual language itself is a very small selection of operators and data expressions.

everything else language specific are just programmed extentions some of which designed to only compile using certain version's compilers - but the undelying language itself is no different despite the version you choose.
if you take advice from you're tutor at college then mate your a big mug ... because think about it, if there people really knew so much about everything why exactly are they teaching fulltime rather than working in a development company?
they have to do the same stuff over and over, teach the exact same areas over and over, show the same techniques over and over.

If he is a guest lecturer who is only there for a few lessons within the year then i'd take listen to the advice, but someone who is either washed up or has decided to take a less creative route for programming ... i'd have to seriously question his judgements.
I mean most tutors are just morons - and you know thier morons when you actually know alot more than them and they're learning new things from your rather than the otherway around!

Visual C++ is perfect for the beginner because it does so much, but just because it does almost every actually frees you up from all the boring shight of programming. I mean i swear it's bad enoguh when i want to create a windowed instance in C++ that it takes around 25lines to do, ontop of that if i needed to link all my libraries, remember all the function tags and namespaces i've given, the structure names i've given to pointers and such, etc...
it's all well and good doing everything yourself, but at the end of the day its just wasting time doing EVERYTHING - i mean i'd agree that the Classwizzard is a big fat cheat, but to be honest you'd only use that when you're making an MFC based program as it quickly enums everything you need for it, which is VERY long and boring because each function has to be registered.
ever say there and tried to come up with AFX names from the top of your head based on the function name?

i personally don't see how anyone could truely be against Visual C++, i mean having something automatic isn't a bad thing puffy.
For example having Automatic Headlights when it gets dark or Windscreen wipers when it rains for your car - would you be so totally against them?
if you think about it, its the same difference with Visual C++'s features ... they're there to make your life easier, not take over driving the bleeding car

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Richard Davey
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 15:15
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Anyone who's done any serious amount of coding in VC++ will start to rely on the way it helps you in order to actually get something done in a day!

Learning C++ itself is just the tip of the iceberg IMHO, there really aren't that many commands when you look at it and the structure is quite logical (not coming from a basic background it isn't, but over time it is). The problem is that for all the learning of C++ you do in the world, it's still not going to let you make a game unless you start learning to use an API (DirectX for example) at which point you're dealing with functions that will be mightily similar to DBPro command names and similar problems will arise too. Or you can write your own (heh, good luck).

Cheers,

Rich

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Kale
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 15:26
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By Raven:
Quote: "if you take advice from you're tutor at college then mate your a big mug ... because think about it, if there people really knew so much about everything why exactly are they teaching fulltime rather than working in a development company?"


Eh? :-s Get your head out of your arse Raven!

@Shady Simpson
You should listen to many people's advice about things you know nowt about (C++) then make an informed choice based upon this info.

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 17:50
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Some games i play, take Hitman 2 for example, the people that are involved in programming the game engine (say 8) are not necesarily the same people involved in programming the game (say 5), the way i see it, i'm kind of a game programmer and not an engine programmer but i do understand where raven's coming from, how if your not involved in programming the engine, your gonna find programming the game harder since you have to adapt your code.

I guess the reason why everyone finds dark basic so easy is 'cus it's "basic" so we don't really need to care about the engine behind it! but it does help to know whats going on though! The thing is i want the situation i'm in right now with dark basic, 2nd party game programmer, and not 1st party engine programmer with C++ and i'd guess that would mean using some pre-made game engine, that's why i brought up Torque Engine, it comes with all/full source code so you can learn how the engine works/make additions to the engine for your game before you actually start programming your games!

everyday of life is a new chapter that has already been fortold but is up to the soul to capture.
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 20:53
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Well 1st thing is how are you descripting a engine/game programmer?

Engine programming could involve creating another language, for example in a wierd way Dark Basic Pro is the engine and the people that make the games are the programmers.

But some people could say that the engine is what the programmers make and the rest is done by scripting (i.e. in Quake the BSP maps/level packs contain all the movement info which is translated through the engine.)

I want to do the hard engine programming that makes somming like the ID software Quake 3 engine.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 22:27
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i'm guessing what he mean is basically the difference between a software programmer and a modification programmer

there are getting fewer and fewer companies and even teams within companies that are producing thier own engines.
and its a common practise to have several programers on the engine and several on the game itself

oftenly now the engine programmers are there just to enhance and debug - they can work for several years on the same engine, just perfecting how it works (like the Quake Engine)
and then you have the game developers who take the engine and make several games from it editing it as they need (like Raven Software)

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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hexGEAR
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Posted: 24th Apr 2003 22:41
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yeah exactly what i mean, the role that appeals to me most is the game programming and not the engine programming, thats just too hardcore for me! i'd prefer to just "pay people to make" / "buy" the game engine and make a language to use it (like martyn said) and make the games myself

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CorruptionsMyth
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i am a beginner;well soon to be beginner whats the url for visuals c++

http://www.dossproductions.cjb.com
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Puffy
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o_O Raven... I'm not in collage... O_O and my C++ teacher has made software like that... but shes old now... the teacher assistant is 34 and he doesn't know shiat... O_O The second I say "well you could try this" he just says "NO THAT WILL NEVER WORK"... then I type it in... and suprise... it works... o_O plus he makes sound effects and wheres shirts that are too tight for him ... O_O and he watches anime all the time.... -_- and hes immature... and I hate him...

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 25th Apr 2003 17:48
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for visual c++ try http://www.microsoft.com !

Code Warrior's good too

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Slick
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Posted: 25th Apr 2003 18:26
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trust me, bloodshed's dev c++ compiler is the best and for producing games, it is faster (AND IT BLOODY WELL IS) than the VC++ 6 form microsoft and borlands free command line tool.

its simple and free and it comes with an opengl example, it is really what your looking for

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Martyn Pittuck
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i just installed the DV8 libs for it (No documented DX9's ATM) and it seems to work lightning fast.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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IanM
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Posted: 26th Apr 2003 01:00 Edited at: 26th Apr 2003 01:01
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Looks like I got here a bit late

For the beginner, I would ensure that I got the most compliant *free* compiler that I could find. I would get one of these (in this sequence):

Bloodshed Dev-c++ (uses the GCC compiler and has an editor)
Mingw (the same GCC compiler but no editor)
Borland C++ 5.5 (no editor as standard, but there is a free editor called VIDE available)
Digital Mars (no editor, unless you pay - much less expensive than Visual studio, but it ain't great)
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large_nostril
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I've been doing C++ for about 2.5 years now. Not to make games or anything, just other cool progs. Nonetheless, I started with MS Visual C++. Take my advice, don't buy this. I've used Code Warrior, but never really got into it. My advice is to go with Borland C++. The main reason is that there are so many versions of C++ out there, but almost every C++ manual/tutorial works with Borland. If you choose not to go with Borland, I'd suggest Bloodshed Dev.

If you are looking for help with C++, I'd suggest you go to http://programmersheaven.com/.

If you want fresh underwear in the morning, take it off the night before.
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Shadow Robert
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thats interesting... because i've never really had much luck compiling anything in anything except Visual C++

which will stop compiling if it finds any errors in the program, which for beginners is a bloody good thing to have - because there are ALOT of things you can do to your system in C/C++ without realising it, and the level that Visual C++ starts at means it stops at every possible error it can find.
it's also very handy to have an exact read out of problems that can occur which will hinder the program you're compiling too.

it's a far better skill to teach to program a program within a reasonable margin of error rather than just make sure the program runs ... as that breed bad programming skills if something won't catch your mistakes properly and run anyway - because most beginners will be like "oh there's and error, but i don't feel like correcting it" ... in VC++ you can't do this because if you make an error it just refuses to compile.

perhaps this can be annoying, but the fact of the matter is there is a problem with what has been coded. For someone who knows what they're doing then they can setup the compiler to overlook everything but critical errors, but for a beginner to me that just seems pretty damn sensible.

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Puffy
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Quote: "I've used Code Warrior, but never really got into it."


What version? I had it a while back but it was too glitchy so I ended up using Dev C++ until version 7.0... o_O I've use Borland too... but CW the most... O_O

Quote: "which will stop compiling if it finds any errors in the program, which for beginners is a bloody good thing to have - "


o_O They all do... you mean syntax errors right?...

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bitJericho
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*laughs at darthpuff* ^_^

I'm pretty sure he meant logical errors

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Puffy
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O_O It does that... hrmmmm... I still like CW... o_O

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Shadow Robert
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hehee - there are some sane reasons why i like VC++ so much ya know puffy

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Puffy
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I get it now... heh... O_O (I just wasted 2 hours on 3 bugs... still not fixed...)

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large_nostril
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I think I had v5 of WC. It wasn't that it was 'too' buggy that I didn't get into it. It's just that was the point that I was thinking "man I suck at programming, there are all these pros out there, what am I doing trying to learn programming." I guess I aught to try CW again. BTW, VC++ doesn't catch tha many 'logical errors', at least not v5.5.

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Shadow Robert
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v6.0 is roughly the standard used by... erm well everyone i know who actually likes Visual C++
6.0 will catch almost every error you make, there are a few which novices won't fall into using and pro's should know better (which leaves guys like me who make the same damn'd mistakes all the time lol)

but then it depends on your interpretation of a logical error, syntax error, casting error, inline error, etc..
generally VC++ 6.0 sp5 will catch basically any error you can throw at it even conserning Assembly, HTML/XML, Java and C/C++ when it is compiling, will tell you what file caused the error - the line that caused it and why it caused it.

rather than something basic like "Error - Line 215, Cast Does Not Match" (in a program which only has 50lines so you know its in another file) you'll get "..//myfile.cpp - line 31, (DWORD*) Cast Found - Expected (FLOAT*) - Error 2105" or something like that

makes it a hell of alot easier to fingure out exactly what it has a problem with and where the problem is.
i mean thats not really a good example of an error, but you get the idea...

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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Shady Simpson
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OK everyone I got Dev C++ and am now wonderin where I can find all of the C++ commands so I can print em off.

Any sites with tutorials would also be appreciated.

Thanx.

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Puffy
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Just go on kazaa ... switch to documents... and type in C++... o_O you should get some ebooks... (I think this isn't considered "pirated")

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IanM
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For a slightly more legal ebooks, you can go here : http://www.relisoft.com/book/index.htm, and also google for 'thinking in c++' (get both volumes).

Plus there are a lot of free resources available - not just code, but techniques too.

You are now on the rollercoaster ride called C++
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Puffy
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O_O yes ... legal ....

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 11:09
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thanx I'll try both of these.

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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 11:15
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One more question everyone,
I think I know what it is, I just wanna be sure before I download it.

What program uses the file format .pdf, I think it's Adobe Acrobat thingy.

Thanx.

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IanM
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 13:41
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That's the one
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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 15:01
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thanx

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David T
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 20:21
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I've got ot admit, people may not like Microsoft but they do create really good software ever thought why so many people use IE - I use it because I like it, and I'm proud of it!

I have to say I've been impressed by MS Visual Studio 6 since the day I got it.

Maybe you could try and find the learning edition - I think that's free. It's bacically VC++ without the exe compiling.

You are the th person to view this signature.
Programmers don't die, they just Gosub without return....
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Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 27th Apr 2003 20:22
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hehee (^_^) i'm not sure puffy understands what you mean by legal
i think i'm gonna check these out, can always use some fresh ways of looking at things

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
One block follows the suit ... the whole suit of blocks is the path ... what have you found?
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Puffy
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 21:32
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O_O Its not a word I use very often...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 27th Apr 2003 22:59
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AR GOD!!!!

I've downloaded quite a few documents from kazaa and they're all in .pdf file format. And I downloaded Acrobat reader and it keeps sayin the file is too big download it again!

Please could someone tell me where I can get a C++ commands .doc file or simply a website with all of it's commands.

Please

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