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Geek Culture / ATI or NVidia Graphics??

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Matto
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Posted: 30th Apr 2003 18:20
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I am upgrading my system and was at first pretty well set on an Nvidia System with AMD, so I bought an ABIT NF7 mother board with an Nvidia Nforce 2 chipset, to add to that I added an AMD 2500+(333FSB) so it should make for a reasonable system, there are no onboard graphics so I was looking around at the Nvidia boards with an eye on the FX 5200/ultra or FX 5600/ultra GPU's but stumbled a little when I came across Rumour/Information that the FX is almost out of production already in favour of a higher rated GPU unit because of a scare from ATI based systems being prefered. Now this is only a rumour I believe, but is it true? if so what's the point of upgrading the card to an Nvidia whan ATI might be the better option(given a top price range of £150.00), that said will an ATI based graphics card work with an Nvidia based M/Board? given they are at logger heads on the graphic card front would there be compatability problems when mixing the 2?

I am wondering if anyone has tried mixing the 2 and how well they got on, and also whether it would be best seems as I have the Nforce 2 chipset on the mother board to get an Nvidia card to work with it?

I am debting the idea that maybe the 2 combined families would be quite interesting and may even give a better performance overall than keeping the respective families together ie: ATI board to ATI card and Nvidia Board to Nvidia Card, what do you think?

To top the questions off, which is the better card at present?, the ATI 9600/Pro or one of the FX 5200/5600 series?

thanks for any help here, I am hanging on buying anything else until my minds well made up... so any advice would be appreciated
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 30th Apr 2003 23:27
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the rumour about the GeForceFX is a lie... there is no truth to it even slightly.
The better card Technically with speed and features i the GeForceFX 5x000 series - they're also cheaper ALOT cheaper.

GeForceFX 5200 from MSi is $100
Radeon 9600pro from CompUSA is $215 (the 9600 std is $130 but alot slower)

as the FX can out perform the 9600 without batting an eyelid, especially in the Shaders portion of things (recent test using 3DMark 2004 saw the GeForceFX 5200 render a realtime nature scene at 50fps looking almost photoreal whereas the Radeon 9800pro was struggling at 16fps...

what makes me laugh about this stupid rumour floating around is they're a)claiming the NV35 is being developed to outperform the GeForceFX because its too slow and b)they're stopping production of thier FX 5x00 range because they're slightly slower than they should be.

not to sound funny, but doesn't it sound odd they'd pull a recently developed card before they could reimburse the income of development - because even at the budget range, if the card was slower the end user won't care as long as its cheaper ... and its bad business sense to pull a card for such a reason (and nVidia aren't a stupid business company they have the Microsoft Instinct!)
but even more funni is the fact that the claim is a card which is already out is set to outpeform the fastest in the range.

incase you're not away the NV35 is the GeForceFX 5200 and the NV30 which is currently the original and fasted card is the GeForceFX 5800Ti - the version they're trying to pass off as the fastest is the current slowest MX version of the card (no one else thinks that just a bloody stupid rumour).
the problem is this will hurt nVidia because everyone is hearing about this stupid rumour and thinking "well if the FX isn't fast enough then i guess i'll get a Radeon."

i hate rumours around the hardware industry, they kill good products.

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 30th Apr 2003 23:36
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If nothing better has come out by the time I get my next comp, hopefully soon I'm getting an FX. ATI may be Canadian, but all I hear from ATI users is complaints about drivers. Is it really such a big concern?

Alex Wanuch
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lcfcfan
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Posted: 30th Apr 2003 23:36 Edited at: 30th Apr 2003 23:37
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I am having a meeting with Gigabyte and MSI next week among othercompanies so i'm gonna see what both of theese say about this rumour gigabyte will probably say this is true but only cos they use the radeon chipsets for their cards.

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dhama
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Posted: 1st May 2003 01:15
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Radeon drivers have got better over time, however you do need to ensure you have the correct ones for the card / OS. I have grown up with ATI cards and must admit that each card I own has got better. I currently have a Radeon 9500 pro 128mb and the 'Catylist' drivers are excellent.
There is one issue that you should be aware of, but this is down to configuration rather than poor quality and that is when using a Radeon card with Windows XP - you may get an error something along the lines: video card caught in an endless loop, I had this but after a little configuration I solved it. There aren't really any steadfast straightforward rules for configuration as it depends on the motherboard / BIOS / OS etc. Each PC has it's peculiarities.

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Matto
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Posted: 1st May 2003 01:44
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Ahha, I see that kinda twisted the sword a little.. sorry about that, I was curious to the rumour and not believing it to be incredibly true or accurate and possibly as Raven said it was probably bought about for the reasons of benefit to the ATI, thanks for the details though raven I have taken them onboard and I do think I will potter out and get an FX card.

Also Raven said..
Quote: "because even at the budget range, if the card was slower the end user won't care as long as its cheaper ... "


I have to disagree with that because the cards turn around so fast in terms of new or updated GPU's it makes it a nightmare trying to re-afford a new card at £350ish each time a new and better range comes out, so I tend to just dabble at the lower end and OK I don't spend heaps but £75 to £125 for a low end card each time a new range comes out is enough to say we want at least some power for our money, hell I just spent £350ish on an entire system for the 2500+ CPU, thats a case, 512MB DDR 2700, 80GB hard drive, an Nforce 2 motherboard and the CPU!! why on earth should I pay the same amount for a graphics board to go with it?? even if it does work hard.. it just doesn't way up as far as cost comparisons go.

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Richard Davey
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Posted: 1st May 2003 03:38
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Matto - surely it's a case of "what do you want to use your PC for?". If you're a musician you'll stick a stonking sound card, etc inside the PC whereas most of us will live happily with a SB Audigy. If you're into raytracing you'll want dual-processors and google-sized* stacks of ram but the video card won't actually make a whole lot of difference. If you want games and games development then you want a shit hot 3D card.

On the ATI front I've never had any problems with my 9700Pro and I'm quite happy in the knowledge it can out perform any GeForce card (under the FX 5600). But then I've never had any problems with my NVIDIA card in my other PC either. If you don't buy the cheapo versions you can't go wrong really.

Cheers,

Rich
* The Google reference is because I don't know how many people are aware of this - but when you search on Google the results are coming back direct from memory. I.e. Google holds most of its index in RAM and doesn't have to do any (multiple) hard drive access to get the results. That's mostly why it's so fast. I've seen pics of the Google NOC and you've never seen more banks of RAM in your life. Awesome stuff.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st May 2003 04:27
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you don't do much rendering do ya Rich
you want a special OpenGL card suchas FireGL, Quadro, TrinityGL if you're serious about rendering - along with the Dual Processor Capability (preferably Intel as most have optimisations for these chips)

that Said, only the GeForce 2&4 Mx series were cutdown comparied to thier big brothers - kinda why they've dropped the Mx designation on the new FX chips, because they're Identical to the Ti's only difference is pure speed.

5200 ~350Mhz 5200Ti ~700Mhz
that is the whole difference your paying for but it is a HUGE difference in performance - especially in 3D heavy software and games where the GPU gets priority over calculations

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Matto
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Posted: 1st May 2003 05:06
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yes I see your points and agree, I am just getting all the info I can before making a direct decision I don't know a whole heap about the intricate details of the cards available (although I am getting there now) so I appreciate other peoples oppinions from those that do know a whole lot more than me, I don't have the funds to buy a top of the range card at the moment, if I did I would buy one all be it begrudgingly.

As it stands I have a budget to build a new system and within that I want to incorperate some of the more usefull features for both gaming and my DBP projects mostly the pixel shaders and what not that are not supported by my other crap cards which are geforce 2 MX and lower , once I am recovered from the new system purchase I can look at upgrading the graphics card properly(a top ranged one maybe/hopfully) but that maybe another few months maybe early next year even.. so I have to make the best buy I can, now that you have kindly answered my questions I can think about it and make a decision.

The ATI cards 9600 PRO and upwards look good for my current requirements as do the top FX cards, but they are pretty much out of my financial range this time, which is why I have settled for an FX which I mentioned in my other reply above. I think I'll probably get an FX 5200 or the FX 5200 ultra if I can along with a P5 glove this round so I can at least use the shaders and stuff in a basic fashion and amuse myself while saving by attempting work with the glove, and then upgrade the card to a top ranged one as soon as I am able.

Thanks for the help here guys, it is appreciated..

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st May 2003 05:55
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me know where you can get an FX 5200 128Mb for £53 with free delievery

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Puffy
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Posted: 1st May 2003 06:04
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O_O Well I was enjoying all of the new nvidia... till I saw the radeon 9800 Pro... poor nvidia...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st May 2003 06:10
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are you serious? the 9800pro you somehow believe hits the mark that the GeForceFX nv30 has set?
boy you need to actually go out and get both, can assure you - you install an FX you'll wonder how the heck you lived without it
funny thing is though that people raved about the 9500pro against the GeForce4 Ti 4800 ... can't say i've been able to get the same power outta my 9500pro or 9800pro as i've been able to from my 4800.

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rapscaLLion
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Posted: 1st May 2003 06:46
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lol please enlighten us raven

Alex Wanuch
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Puffy
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Posted: 1st May 2003 08:30
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Raven I don't own them... I'm going off of what people say about them and about what I read... you guys can quote me on this... ahem

Quote: ""You only know what people tell you""


This asshole in my C++ class said "You believe everything everyone ever says" ... my response "I only know what people tell me... its there fault if they lie... don't take it out on me just because some loser wanted to make himself look better by giving me bullshit..." o_O and then he grabbed my arm wrong... so I dropped the fucker...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st May 2003 09:02
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i suppose... personally i like hands on experience rather than the hearsay.
might just be me, but when your developing games its good to know what each card is capable of. i know that Radeons are a popular card, and i know alot of people have them - but from a gamers pov they're hardly anything special.

right now between myself, Alexis and Jake we own
GeForce2mx 200/GeForce2 GTS/GeForce3 Ti 200/GeForce4 Ti 4200
GeForce4 Ti 4800/GeForce FX 5200/GeForce FX nv30/Quadro4 XGL 990
QuadroFX 2000
nVidia TnT2-Ultra/Riva TnT2/Savage4 Pro/Savage 2000/SiS 63GL
Rage2 Pro/Virge3D/Voodoo Banshee/Voodoo5 5500/Radeon 8500
Radeon 9500/Radeon 9800pro/Radeon 5000/FireGL4/Oxygen3D/KryoII

when i test things i do it properly when i need accurate values and performance stats... when i get new cards i generally check which can outperform the others - nothing even comes close to the power of the GeForceFX and QuadroFX.
i mean my QuadroFX plays Unreal2 with full graphics at 1600x1400 on dual screens on my AlthonXP 1400+ machine at a very respectable 178fps, whereas the Radeon 9800pro on Alex's P4-2.5Ghz can only handle a single screen at 60fps - you put on the dual screens and the whole things dies to 17fps.
oki so you can hardly qualify the power of the Quadro to the GeForce, but even the 5200 will push 100fps on my machine.

if you want i could do runtime tests in DarkBasic Pro on all of the cards show the performance difference - but i'm surprised that DBS hasn't already done something like this.

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bitJericho
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Posted: 1st May 2003 09:34
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Quote: "and then he grabbed my arm wrong... so I dropped the fucker..."


LOL go puffy

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lcfcfan
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Posted: 1st May 2003 23:26 Edited at: 1st May 2003 23:27
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Hey raven how big is the difference in performance between the geforce fx 5800 and the quadro fx 2000 i would imagine it would be a lot but is the quadro worth all that money as i have not tested either of theese cards yet?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 1st May 2003 23:51
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well there is a Time Shader demo that comes with the FX cards, you may have seen it on the nVidia Site - its a big truck that gradually rusts up.

now i run this at Desktop resolution 1280x960x48 ... and it set FSAA 8x and Antistopic Filtering to 4x

the GeForceFX 5800Ti runs the demo at 17-22fps
the QuadroFX 2000 run it at 68fps

the card has enormous power ... and it has a few tweaks and updates that allows it to go even faster than the GeForce on certain operations. but i think its more that its running at 2.0Ghz whereas my GeForce is only 1.2Ghz
unfortunately the Radeons dont' support Light or Time Shaders so i can't really tell you how they perform.

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Dazzy
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Posted: 1st May 2003 23:56
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Prolly a stupid question, but since I haven't been keeping up with hardware I don't have a clue.

Do the 5200 cards support Shaders?

Dazzy
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lcfcfan
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 00:56
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yes they do dazzy all modern graphics cards do!

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Matto
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 02:32
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Very interesting stuff especially about the Light + Time Shaders .. I for one would be happy to know what the performance of the various cards are like within DBP.

On another note, my situation has changed slighty(very slightly) since my last post, after taking into account Rich's and ravens comments(which were good) I did some recalculating and I am able to squeeze a card to the value of £150.00, hopefully a little more respectable(not alot) than the previous low end budget I had, ok I know this isn't enough to get the best by any means, but would anyone here have an idea of what would be the best option for a card within this allowance. I am thinking it's around aabout a choice between an FX 5200 ultra or bare boned FX 5600?? I doubt the ATI come into the range and I am keen to get as best support for shaders and things as possible(I know I Ask alot..), so I am presuming FX is best for this?.

Thanks again to all who have helped so far

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 02:38
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you'd probably be better off with a 5200Ti/Ultra than a 5600 main reason being is the only difference between the makes is GPU speed.

5200 ~350Mhz
5200Ti ~700Mhz
5400 ~400Mhz
5400Ti ~800Mhz
5600 ~500Mhz
5600Ti ~1.0Ghz
5800 ~600Mhz
5800Ti ~1.2Ghz



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Matto
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 02:57
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ahh interesting I've not seen the 5400 series to date.. thought it was odd how they went from 52 to 56 and then 58.. lol, I really do learn something every day!!

Thanks Raven, I appreciate your help here very much.

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Puffy
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 03:33
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o_O where does my ti4200 lie...

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 10:01
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4200Ti runs at 450Mhz (4800Ti at 550Mhz) - however due to only have 4 rather than 6pipelines, a single layered Shader Unit and a 64Bit on a 32Bit Core FPU, not to mention the 120 less asm registers it has.
The real speed difference i quite big
Remember the GeForce Series upto 4 are standard 64Bit cards, which is quite remarkable as the Radeon Series are 128Bit cards... the only thing that kept that speed gap small was the fact that the GeForce series are 64Bit Complete System whereas the Radeons are 128Bit Processor using a 48Bit Core & 64Bit FPU and the memory at 64Bit - this means any real extra speed gained by the Processors higher & asm functions is lost if the data has to be second processed, which is why Full Scene Anti-Aliasing is just so bloody slow on them.

but this time around its the GeForceFX which is based on a total 128Bit System - this means that every single operation it carried out can be upto 128Bit or Instruction Compressed/MultiThreading to allowed multiple operations at once. If you were to run standard 32Bit Graphics Operations on the FX then you get a 4x speed boost, becuase it packs 4 Instructions + the Number of Instructions it can normally handle - which at this point i believe is in the region of 8 per cycle (about the same as an MMX based Pentium) ... so it makes it pretty fast in that respect

for software optimised specifically for the FX series, it is certainly a truely awesome card which can perform some truely remarkable things graphically - and personally you've gotta love being able to use 128Bit Colour Desktop mode hehee

personally i can't wait until the Itanium is finally on general release, the first Intel Processor to be a true 64Bit rather than 128Bit Main
64Bit Math CoProcessor
64Bit Float Point Unit
32Bit x86 Core (Pentium4 & AlthonXP/MP 64Bit Extended Core)
i mean if any have used the current Pentium4's in x86-64 then you'll know what using the 64bit x86 Core is capable of, but even that isn't really much comparied to a full 64Bit or 128Bit Processor.
Itanium is set to be the first full 128Bit Processor, and Optiron is the first 64Bit Processor with 128Bit Extensions

things are finally starting to get exciting again in the hardware world ... especially with IBM Static Holographic Memory (SHM) in final testing stages, which means this time next year those 40Gb Ram Chips they've been boasting about will actually be inside our PCs
Let see Kingston's Rimm beat that hehee... especially with 140Gb Transfer rates.

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Matto
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 15:42
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I heard about that SHM and it does really sound quite incredible..

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Dazzy
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 19:48
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OT, Raven you seem pretty up to date, is it tru the new intel chip will leave x86 behind?

Dazzy
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Ian T
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Posted: 2nd May 2003 20:21
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Right now, the Radeon9700pro is the best your money can buy . The FX barely beats it in speed tests and it's over $100 more at discount sites.

--Mouse

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 3rd May 2003 04:06
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Mouse i can pickup an FX 5200 which beats the Radeon9800pro hands down in a speed test for $90 inc p&p, the Radeon9700pro is still $130 from almost everywhere.

i mean you say barely but if by barely you mean 2,000 3dmarks more and over 25fps on every single game tested - not to mention the only card which has the Time&Light Shaders which are used in a few upcomming games for added effect (doom3 being one of those)
Radeon is gonna die a slow a painful death, mwhahaa

intel arn't leaving the x86 behind as such, the structure will be the same - its just the core is being updated now that Windows is no longer bound to a 32bit system ... i mean before you had to specially install 64bit systems in windows or just use Linux - but XP has opened the door to real 64bit processing Windows for the everyday user ... with Windows .Net set to set 128Bit Native with thier new File System, i dont doubt within the next year or so Intel isn't going to push thier Itanium onto the mainstream market to get the upper hand on AMD

this time last year it was seeming as if the promised Pentium5 using a completely new core would never see reality - but after the last Hardware Performance Show over at Lakeside, seems there is alot more being developed by both sides ... and th fact that AMD did the impossible for them and not only built a new prototype Optiron but also got it working on a motherboard within 3months as they promised for showing (obvisouly not a working as in what you'd take home, more in a Pentium Pro sorta way lol) i mean shows they're both stepping up a gear and i don't doubt they'll both be ending thier x86-32Bit dependancy and moving into the x86-64Bit age

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AlecM
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Kangaroo2
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Sorry I can't be arsed to read this all, but basically NVidia everytime, cos ATI drivers are not the best to put it nicely. And the best GForceFX is really, really sweet

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Puffy
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Posted: 3rd May 2003 23:15 Edited at: 4th May 2003 22:37
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o_O Ok so FX is better than Ti? What about MX? or Quadro... O_O I'm getting a new videocard soon... (Sorry I don't know what I'm talking about =P)

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th May 2003 07:20
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puffy your a moron... plain and simple

FX is the chip - as in GeForceFX or perhaps for you GeForce5
there is NO LONGER and Mx version,
it is now Standard 5200,5400,5600,5800
and Titanium/Ultra 5200Ti,5400Ti,5600Ti,5800Ti

over the next 2months the 6000 and 6200 will join these ranks as 800Mhz and 1.4Mhz versions

and the Quadro is a professional level OpenGL enhanced graphics card, however due to the GeForce's new shader setup it is now also DirectX9 enhanced

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 4th May 2003 17:02
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I'm currently using a GeForce 4 MX440 with 64Mb onboard, I've never seen other cards performance but it's done me ok. Only quibble is the lack of Shadow, Rainbow and Cartoon support. Is it necessary for me to upgrade the card, with Doom III n'all? Besides, It's fine for me at the moment doing DB dev etc.

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 4th May 2003 19:39
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lol... i've got several 4 4x00 and FX 5x00 and i've not got those features working either - but that aside, i'm not really a big fan of the GeForce4 Mx, its always seemed the runt of the series ... i mean it was the only one actually with less features than its big brother, and it pissed off alot of people.

i'd recommend upgrading to an FX, but if you don't have the cash then the 4mx will do you for a good year yet
but it does add alot of power - i don't think anyone with an FX will need to upgrade again for another 3years, yeah pretty bold statement - but companies are having trouble keeping up as is, i mean even my GeForce2 Go! is still doing me proud - only chokeing on the more highend games like Unreal2 right now.
So it's lasted me a good 2years now ... think the FX should last a good while longer whilst the industry not only catchs up, but also whilst people learn howto actually take advantage.

I mean it may look like it if you surfed around, but programming shaders isn't a job for every old programmer - because they need a keen sense of graphics style and manipulation in realtime, there are MANY tech demo's but when you combine shaders together and such it is an unwelding task that most can't do
so it'll take a while for people to adapt, like what happened when DirectX first came around - took a good few years for adaption.

so it should suit you for a good while yet, but in 2-3years i can guarentee the games produced for the XBox, GameCube and PC are just going to visually blow you away.

Tsu'va Oni Ni Jyuuko Fiori Sei Tau!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 4th May 2003 19:43
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From a technical stand point, the games I've seen so far on the XBox and GCube are just truly awesome. I also thought that when I tried out Tenebrae (Quake Mod) and saw the lagging problems, it may be sooner than later that I'll upgrade. Fanx for the info tho Raven

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Puffy
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Posted: 4th May 2003 22:37
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Quote: "puffy your a moron... plain and simple"


Told you I didn't know what I was talking about... O_O ... you still havn't answered my question... what VC should I go for...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th May 2003 00:22
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well perhaps you should ask the question after checking out the website for nvidia enough to know which card is for what

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Stevo
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Posted: 5th May 2003 04:03
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Raven I don't know about america but over here we can't get top of the range cards for $100 (£70), btw I have just seen a ti 4-somthing? can't remember which for £148 at the Oem part in pc world, which is good. I'm thinking of getting one of those as soon as I can afford, although I will then need to download/find the drivers for it myself.

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QuothTheRaven
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Posted: 5th May 2003 06:00
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I plan to go with radeon, seeing how much Max work i'm gonna be doing, and damn is that baby a sweet card

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th May 2003 10:09
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Radeons chock in max, no development studio uses anything cept a dedicated OpenGL or GeForce card for thier graphics machines anymore.
ATi cards never have cut it for development graphics, and i doubt they ever will - even the FireGL is only a shadow of all of the other available cards, even 3DLabs Oxygen2 will beat them in pure load.

Stevo, i'd suggest you checkout Watford Electronics sometime free delivery to anywhere in the UK on orders over £50

GeForceFX 5200 £53
GeForce4 Ti 4200 (not oem edition) £95
GeForce4 Mx 480 £35
and this is just the best
QuadroFX 2000 £680 (these puppies retail in the states for $1,750 and are the fastest card on the planet, more over you can get PCI versions as well - plus SLi connect upto 4cards, and believe me that is one HELL of alot of power )

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Matto
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Posted: 7th May 2003 04:33
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those oem cards in PC world are normally sparkle ones, at least the ones I see in my local branch are, and they normally have a driver cd with them although they at times old drivers.. wouldn't it be better to spend 150ish on an FX 5600ultra, I have seen one advertised for 160ish.. just need to locate and confirm that it's true cause the card model number for sale was not located on their web site!, it's an MSI card(micro star international) incase that info's any use to you. I'll post back if I get any stronger info on that.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th May 2003 09:32
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there are currently only 3 companies that are making GeForceFX and MSi is the major manufacturer for the retail sector.
they have been known in the past to have slightly deviant cards, but they got the contract this time by working to the cards specs to the letter - what your getting is essentially what nVidia have tested themselves.

and yes OEM cards oftenly only come with the basic Drivers, however this isn't a problem as nVidia update thier drivers every 2months which means you're actually constantly downloading new drivers to make sure you have the best and most bugfree card.
even still all FX i've seen come with Detonator4 41.22 drivers, which is an unreleased version between the past 2 releases.

that aside you don't really need anything more with a card, i mean you can pay £160 for a more expensive version of the same card ... get the full copy with games and such, but i mean at the end of the day the card and drivers never change so your just paying for the games (which most here probably already have to be honest)
that aside if you can find somewhere selling the 5600Ti for only £160 then please post up cause my 5800Ti cost me £380 which is the cheapest i've been able to find. I found a 5600Ti for £260 but nothing cheaper than that...
the Ti's are far better cards because of the speed increase, but they also far far more expensive.

5200 - £55
5400 - £100
5600 - £125
5800 - £170

is what Watford Electronics sell the cards for (roughly) which is currently the cheapest these cards are worldwide.

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