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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / The super secret useful commands of DBPro to help us all

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NeoNova
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 04:32
I don't have them but from this post I just read:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=108890&b=1

... it is becoming more and more evident that there are in fact commands that would actually make all this banging of our heads not necessary (i.e. spooky mentions some great commands that are needed to make light/shadow actually look good but the commands aren't documented in my help files).

"set shadow position lightmode,0,0,0" how the hell would I have known to use this and how the hell do people know about this command?

Please don't say by doing alot of coding and spending time writing a game ... I could have had my project alot further along if I had known about these secret commands.

This is very frustrating and we are all wasting time because of poor documentation and secret commands that only a few know about.

So how do people know about these secret commands? If you know about them could you do us all a favor and document them or at least list them? Please???

I'm trying to help myself and others.

Any other ideas to resolve this to help everyone?
spooky
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 18:20
The new shadow commands were invented in update 5.8 which came with an extra download with examples on how to use them.

There are a number of other useful commands not in the help files, like some useful tokeniser and string commands, but are still in test mode, so that's why they are not documented.

However the help files are a long running joke that has been promised to be be sorted out for years and years. In a newsletter last year there was even some screenshots of a fabulous new help system that promised to explain fully every command. It never happened and looks likely to never happen.

Boo!
John Y
Synergy Editor Developer
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 18:38
Quote: "It never happened and looks likely to never happen."


It will happen, they just need some time to finish them.

the_winch
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 19:02
Since they haven't managed to find that time in the 3 1/2 years they have been working on it I won't hold my breath.

By way of demonstration, he emitted a batlike squeak that was indeed bothersome.
TDK
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 19:36
Why don't all DBPro users start a Community Help File project thread where the aim is to collectively create the DBPro help file everyone wants.

I know there are users out there that know the commands in DBPro as good as, (if not better than) TGC themselves!

If everyone took a couple of commands from the on-line help and edited them and those who know the undocumented commands write a small section on those, they could be posted in the thread for others to improve on.

They could then be collated and maybe turned into a new HTML document or a PDF file. I don't mind doing this if there's enough interest.

I know it should be down to TGC to do this, but if helping them out a bit to speed up the process means getting what we want a bit sooner, wouldn't it make it worth doing?

Just a thought...

TDK_Man

Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 20:14 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2007 20:24
Quote: "Why don't all DBPro users start a Community Help File project thread where the aim is to collectively create the DBPro help file everyone wants."


Good idea.

But something like it has already been tried. I'm sure Jessticular (another moderator at one time?) had a website for exactly that - but it seems to have died through lack of input from OUR end.

Edit

What's really needed more than a completely new Help system is just updated and corrected versions of the existing system. The present system consists of simple text files which we can all edit to our satisfaction.

Perhaps the way to start is to get a list of all the commands whose Help files are inadequate or inaccurate - a lot of them are, however, quite accurate and don't need changing.

I'm warming to this idea. Perhaps we could post our favourite grumbles here and wait for some nice person to compile them all into a new thread so that people can post suggested improvements. The thread owner can then update their first post in the usual way.

2nd Edit

Sorry TDK, I seem to have just repeated what you said.
PowerSoft
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 20:29 Edited at: 22nd Jul 2007 20:32
As far as I can remember that project had been started, by Jess I believe, probably no longer exists however.

dbphelp.org or something...


[edit]
Actually want it www.darkbasichelp.co.uk by Kenjar and Jess?
[/edit]

The Innuendo's, 4 Piece Indie Rock Band
http://theinnuendos.tk:::http://myspace.com/theinnuendosrock
NeoNova
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 21:16
What about updating the Wiki's that seems to have already started?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Basic_Pro

http://gpwiki.org/index.php/DarkbasicPro

http://gpwiki.org/index.php/DARKBASIC_PRO

Include a section only for syntax and new commands?

www.darkbasichelp.co.uk went no where that I could tell.[href]null[/href]

The other thing TGC could do (not trying to tell them how to run their busines) but hire a high school or college student to come in part time and document everything. That's all they would do nothing else. It would save programmers from having to do it.

I would think they make enough money to hire someone part time. Your product is being shy'd away from because of the reviews all over the web stating that the documentation is not good enough. This would be good for your business TGC which translates to more $$ coming to you.
NeoNova
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 21:45
Just to help the situation I just started holding my breath ...
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 21:46
This was Jess T's old thread - but the links seem broken now.

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=53011&b=1

Quote: "but hire a high school or college student to come in part time and document everything"


Yes, I'm amazed they haven't done that.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 21:47
Quote: "Just to help the situation I just started holding my breath "


I'll give you about 4 minutes ...
Alsan
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 21:50
There's also the German DBlounge with over 800 commands: http://de.dblounge.org/

It's available in English, too. (Not nearly as many commands, because it is a German site ^^)

Visit my Forum [German]: www.jaf.de.hm
Mistrel
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 22:06
Quote: "They could then be collated and maybe turned into a new HTML document or a PDF file. I don't mind doing this if there's enough interest."


I'm actually developing a solution for this in parallel with one of my current projects, to make writing my own documentation easier.

I hope to make an announcement about it in the next couple of weeks.

http://3dfolio.com
Xolatron
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Location: The Star Forge Language: DBpro
Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 22:25
Yes, a wiki (or similar) help files project would be nice . It would be easy to name each page after each command. But I'm interested to see what Mistrel's working on.

As to the original post... http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=58158&b=1. Unfortunately I spelt the title of that thread incorrectly, so it is rarely found by searching. Some of the commands (image width() anyone?) are quite useful, though.

-Xol

John Y
Synergy Editor Developer
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 23:02
Quote: "Since they haven't managed to find that time in the 3 1/2 years they have been working on it I won't hold my breath."


I have a copy of the latest version on my hard drive, and they look pretty complete.

NeoNova
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 23:08
Is "set shadow position lightmode,0,0,0" in there?
Dr Manette
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 23:22
More useful examples of the actual commands will also help. I do not even bother with the ones that come with DBpro. They're so big you have to scroll to actually find the commands you want. A great idea would be to assign specific forum members which ever htm docs they feel they can better explain, and then release our own help file that can replace the old one. I'd be willing to help out on most 3d , text, input, and system commands.

A list should be compiled first of all the badly explained commands.


@John Y
The old help files are complete, but not done well. How good is the latest version, and how close the completion is it? If it's still a long ways to go, we'll have a better reason to take matters into own hands.



david w
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Posted: 22nd Jul 2007 23:56
I am in support of a community effort to document the help files.
Freddix
AGK Developer
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 00:50
Try this small sample to understand how SET SHADOW POSITION work.
I only found -1 to work for MODE...



You can then understand that Shadow position will define the position of the shadow caster around the objects...

Gandalf said: "All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us"
Odyssey-Creators - X-Quad Editor - 3DMapEditor
John Y
Synergy Editor Developer
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 00:50
Quote: "The old help files are complete, but not done well. How good is the latest version, and how close the completion is it? If it's still a long ways to go, we'll have a better reason to take matters into own hands."


Comparing a few it seems that the layout has changed (almost msdn style), this definitely improves readability.

da power pwnerer
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 00:52
I will help too


http://Freewebs.com/noobisoft
Come to Noobisoft's website today!
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 01:59
Quote: "Comparing a few it seems that the layout has changed (almost msdn style), this definitely improves readability."


Readability was never a problem - it was the CONTENT that was the issue. Why all this concern about cosmetics and superficiality?

An annoyingly large number of commands had (and some still have) incomplete, inaccurate or misleading descriptions. That is the main problem. Good (and brief) examples would be a nice bonus. It is particularly annoying to search through the "showcase" example for a command only to find that the command isn't even there.

Quote: "I will help too"


So will I.
TDK
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 03:28
Quote: "It is particularly annoying to search through the "showcase" example for a command only to find that the command isn't even there."


I've noticed that too.

I found that amusing to be honest - mainly because although I have DBPro - and the spiral-bound manual - at the time, I never found DBP up to the job I wanted to use it for, (mainly game utilities), so I stuck with DBC and even today, I use DBP rarely.

I can appreciate though that for someone using only DBP, it would be quite annoying...

I have to stress though that the version of DBP available now is nothing like the version back then...

The current version has lots of good new features, but apart from speed, there's not much DBP can do that DBC can't do for someone like me who doesn't write many full games.

I know it's old hat and there are ways around it, but Save Image (which I used a lot) is in the manual, in the online help files and highlights in the IDE along with the syntax but it's just not there. When you use it, it does nothing and results in no error.

I always thought it was taken out temporarily, so why isn't it back yet? I'd personally use DBP a lot more if it was there...

That apart, for anyone learning a programming language, up-to-date and accurate documentation is essential.

I appreciate that there may be commands that don't function properly yet, but there's no reason why they cannot be documented if they are present in a publicly available release of DBPro - if it's clearly stated that the commands are not finished, may not work properly and are liable to change without notice.

Users can then make up their own minds to use them or not.

It just needs someone to co-ordinate everything and see it through to completion.

I've therefore created a DBPro Documentation board on TGPF (within the Dark Basic Professional board), so people can create new threads for any commands in the help files which are poorly documented or are not documented at all.

Anyone else interested enough in this to participate?

TDK_Man

Airslide
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 04:52
Quote: "I know it's old hat and there are ways around it, but Save Image (which I used a lot) is in the manual, in the online help files and highlights in the IDE along with the syntax but it's just not there. When you use it, it does nothing and results in no error."


Save image doesn't work? In my app, Decal Maker, it works as of DBP 6.3 (haven't tested 6.4). Infact, virtually the whole thing relies on it, as it is creating an image much like a sprite sheet. I'm using a full, absolute directory rather than a relative directory (the user's FPSC directory). While it shouldn't be, that might be the issue - try using Get Dir$()+"yourfilename.extension". I save an image made from the Get Image command, another reason it may work while it may not in other circumstances (though again I can't imagine why).

I'll certainly try to participate in a community effort to update the documentation, as I get a tad annoyed when I have to do more experimentation than necessary because of poor help documentation. Especially when my projects are several thousands of lines of code and have the compiling time plus the actual game load time (which is why I do alot of mini-tests to experiment with smaller features).


Vote today and play the games!
Mistrel
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 06:51 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2007 07:10
Quote: "I've therefore created a DBPro Documentation board on TGPF (within the Dark Basic Professional board), so people can create new threads for any commands in the help files which are poorly documented or are not documented at all.

Anyone else interested enough in this to participate?"


Catch me on MSN, TDK, and we can talk about the possibility of coordinating my project with this. I don't want to announce anything because it isn't finished yet but I'd be happy to explain to you what I'm working on.

I'd hate for two similar projects to overlap where they could work together to achieve a similar goal.

http://3dfolio.com
Cash Curtis II
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 07:36
Save Image works just fine for me. I just saved a JPG that I loaded as a JPG, DDS, and PNG file. There are other formats supported by that command but I'm sure they work too.

I use DBP 6.2.


Come see the WIP!
TDK
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 07:42 Edited at: 23rd Jul 2007 07:43
Quote: "Save image doesn't work? In my app, Decal Maker, it works as of DBP 6.3"


I stand corrected!

It know it hasn't worked for me in previous versions, and I tried it in V1.063 before posting and it didn't work. Then I realised that I'd only saved the .DBA file and not the .DBPRO project file.

Once I did that, the Save Image command worked! I can now go back to some of the jobs I had problems with in the past, so that's good...

Quote: "Catch me on MSN"


I don't use MSN any more because when I'm on-line, I can never get any work done!

You can always PM me on TGPF if you like.

TDK_Man

Mr Bigger
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 13:58
Quote: "It will happen, they just need some time to finish them.
"


It would be laughable it wasn't so sad.
Probably more like after they release the DBP DX10 to replace DBP.

Quote: "Since they haven't managed to find that time in the 3 1/2 years they have been working on it I won't hold my breath."


Closer to 4 years.

Quote: "I know it should be down to TGC to do this, but if helping them out a bit to speed up the process means getting what we want a bit sooner, wouldn't it make it worth doing?"


No,i don't think so.I had done much along those lines up to version 1.059 and it didn't take me 4 years.I posted an AT help update after the bug week to test the waters before posting the whole fixed help because a new help system was promised for 1.060, and all i got for my trouble was a snide remark from Lee(something about being a hacker).It's all been thrown away now and i have not purchased a TGC product since.Copyright bad help files? Pffft!
10 products later,still no good documents.

My advice would be to leave it alone,and if you did do it,create all of it with nothing from the current help files and don't integrate it into the default editor.

Quote: "That apart, for anyone learning a programming language, up-to-date and accurate documentation is essential."


Or... browse the forum for years sifting through all the repeated questions in the hope of learning some usefull undocumented thing that someone was kind enough to post like TGC expects you to do.(gasp!)

\end rant.

AMD 2600+/1GB DDR ram/GeForce 6600oc 256MB/W2KPro/DBPro 6.2
TinTin
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 18:23
Help! that's what TGC need and by the looks of it, they'll need loads. I started and got bored copying the old help files to a new help system and editing each file to remove the errors to missing files, I even generated some new files for tutorials and undocumented commands, but when I read about the prommised new help, I just binned the idea.

I'm all for a user forum containing a new help system, I'd contibute for sure. I'd also suggest creating a complete list of commands first detailing all the functionality before knocking up example code snipits on how to use them...

Cyberspace was becoming overcrowded and slummy so I decided to move. These nice chaps gave me a lift.
Green Gandalf
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 20:05
Mr Bigger

I think you forgot to include



at the beginning of your post.

I certainly find the Help files issue annoying - but it doesn't stop me from getting hours of fun playing with the language.
Lord SilverStone
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 20:14
I would have to agree the help files are a joke and the Book that someone wrote on Dark Basic Pro is even worse. They are using Dark Basic Pro in the College I am going to and that is how I was introduced to the language. And the professor I had was appauled at the help files and the book. I do aggree that a community effort would be the best thing and I would love to contribute to it. We just need someone to set down the basic guidelines for it, ie a website, PDF or helpfile and then everyone start working on it. One person should moderate it and make a list of groups of commands and then people sign up for that section and start writing a new section for it. I think that would be the best way to get a DECENT help file written.

Lord SilverStone
Mistrel
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 21:14
Really? I thought the book was quite good.

http://3dfolio.com
TDK
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Posted: 23rd Jul 2007 21:34
Quote: "We just need someone to set down the basic guidelines for it, ie a website, PDF or helpfile and then everyone start working on it. One person should moderate it and make a list of groups of commands and then people sign up for that section and start writing a new section for it."


That's more or less what I've created on the TGPF forum - which I think is easier than a website for people to add their input. It's now just a case of seeing what people want to contribute.

I know a few others have attempted this on their own in the past and never finished, so it would be nice to see them join together and pool their hard work rather than just waste what they have already done.

TDK_Man

pcRaider
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 07:07 Edited at: 28th Jul 2007 07:10
I want a list of full commands.
Of course, include a un-document command.
da power pwnerer
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 15:40
Why just a list? Why not the Community Helpfile?


http://Freewebs.com/noobisoft
Come to Noobisoft's website today!
pcRaider
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 18:08
Is there finished the Community Helpfile? I want it.



I am agreeable for the Community Helpfile project.

A list and number are necessary to make help file.
And it is designed a database.
I think so.
Roxas
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 18:10
No there isnt yet finished. But community is making it.

Visit this wiki!

http://www.darkbible.co.nr

[center]
DarkBIBLE Wikipedia for TGC Users!
pcRaider
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Posted: 28th Jul 2007 18:21
I understood it. I cooperate.
Green Gandalf
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Playing: Malevolence:Sword of Ahkranox, Skyrim, Civ6.
Posted: 28th Jul 2007 23:51
Interesting website. It led me to investigate the DBP Help file. Here's what I found:

Quote: "SYNC SLEEP

This command will allow the executable to become friendly Windows application. Setting a flag of one will
force a Sleep(1) command within thewindows message pump.

Syntax

SYNC SLEEP Slep Flag

Related Information
"


Not quite a model Help file ...

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