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Geek Culture / [LOCKED] What happens when pirates play a game development simulator and then go bankrupt because of piracy?

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mr Handy
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Posted: 1st May 2013 13:08
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When we released our very first game, Game Dev Tycoon (for Mac, Windows and Linux) yesterday, we did something unusual and as far as I know unique. We released a cracked version of the game ourselves, minutes after opening our Store.

I uploaded the torrent to the number one torrent sharing site, gave it a description imitating the scene and asked a few friends to help seed it.

A minute after we uploaded it, my torrent client looked like this:

Soon my upload speed was maxed out (and as of the time of writing still is) and my friends and I had connections from all over the world and for all three platforms!

How does piracy feel?

The cracked version is nearly identical to the real thing except for one detail… Initially we thought about telling them their copy is an illegal copy, but instead we didn’t want to pass up the unique opportunity of holding a mirror in front of them and showing them what piracy can do to game developers. So, as players spend a few hours playing and growing their own game dev company, they will start to see the following message, styled like any other in-game message:

Quote: "Boss, it seems that while many players play our new game, they steal it by downloading a cracked version rather than buying it legally.
If players don’t buy the games they like, we will sooner or later go bankrupt."

Slowly their in-game funds dwindle, and new games they create have a high chance to be pirated until their virtual game development company goes bankrupt.

Some of the responses I found online (identities obscured to protect the guilty):

Quote: "Is there some way to avoid that? I mean can I research DRM or something …"

And another user:

Quote: "Why are there so many people that pirate? It ruins me!"

As a gamer I laughed out loud: the IRONY!!!

However, as the developer, who spent over a year creating this game and hasn’t drawn a salary yet, I wanted to cry. Surely, for most of these players, the 8 dollars wouldn’t hurt them but it makes a huge difference to our future!

Trying to appeal to pirates

I know that some people just don’t even think about buying games. They will immediately search for a cracked version. For this reason, when we released the game, we also published a page which targets people who search for a cracked/illegal version. Unfortunately, due to my lack in search-engine-optimization skills, that page has had no impact yet, but I hope it will convince some to buy the game in the future.
Quote: "[…]if years down the track you wonder why there are no games like these anymore and all you get to play is pay-to-play and social games designed to suck money out of your pockets then the reason will stare back at you in the mirror."

I do think it’s important to try to communicate what piracy means to game developers to our consumers. I also tried to appeal to a particular forum a day earlier after someone who I gave early-access to the Store seemed to have passed on the copy to others:

Quote: "We’re just a start-up and really need your support. The game is only 7.99USD, DRM free…"

Clearly, my post hadn’t worked too well since on the same forum someone posted the earlier screenshot (“Why are there so many people that pirate? It ruins me!) just a bit after I made my appeal and this was followed by many others complaining about piracy.

I still hope that it made a difference to someone.

Anyway, how many really did buy and how many did pirate our game during this first day?

The awesome/depressing results

Today, one day after release, our usage stats look like this:

Genuine version: 214 users

Cracked version: at least 3104 users

Over 93.6% of players stole the game. We know this because our game contains some code to send anonymous-usage data to our server. Nothing unusual or harmful. Heaps of games/apps do this and we use it to better understand how the game is played. It’s absolutely anonymous and you are covered by our privacy policy. Anyway, the cracked version has a separate ID so I can separate the data. I’m sure some of the players have firewalls and some will play offline therefore the actual number of players for the cracked version is likely much higher.

To the players who played the cracked version!

I’m not mad at you. When I was younger, downloading illegal copies was practically normal but this was mostly because global game distribution was in its infancy. To be fair, there are still individuals who either can’t make a legal purchase because of payment-issues or who genuinely cannot afford the game. I don’t have a quarrel with you. To the rest who could afford the game consider this:

1. Would you like to see a bigger/better sequel of Game Dev Tycoon in the future? Buy the game! Creating this game was already expensive and this was just a small game. If we ever want to make a bigger/better version we need a lot of support!

2. Do you hate the trend towards social or pay-to-play free games? Buy games from independent developers! (start with ours )

3. Do you hate the recent trends in the industry? Buy DRM free games.

We are not wealthy and it’s unlikely that we will be any time soon, so stop pretending like we don’t need your 8 dollars! We are just two guys working our butts off, trying to start our own game studio to create games which are fun to play.

The game is DRM free, you can use it on up to three of your computers for your own use, you get copies for Mac, Windows and Linux, you can continue your game before piracy wrecked your company and we even aim to provide you with a free Steam key once the game is on Steam. All for a mere 8 bucks.

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Final words

Do we need DRM?
Whether or not to use DRM isn’t clear at all to a new start-up. The main argument against it is that all it does is to inconvenience genuine customers. Fact is that any game can be cracked, so all you do is spend time on something that in the end just annoys your real customers while only slightly delaying the inevitable. The only way to protect yourself is to create an online game. I guess that’s why so many studios focus on these types of games and it’s probably a driving force to eradicate traditional single player games.

Personally, I love single players games and hope to be able to continue down this path and if more people would buy our game, we might even be able to.

Would I do this again?

This was a unique opportunity. You need a game development simulation game to make this particular joke work. The more general idea/experiment to release a cracked version which inconveniences and counts pirates can probably work for any game and might work in the long run.

If pirates are put through more trouble than genuine customers, maybe more will buy the real game. Sadly, for AAA games it is currently the other way. Customers get the trouble with always-on requirements and intrusive DRM, while pirates can just download and enjoy. A twisted world.

«Just because you’re unique, doesn’t mean you’re useful»
«If you contributed to the reason for locking, you may now find yourself on moderation, or in extreme cases in the grave»
Quik
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Posted: 1st May 2013 13:20
my only question is why you felt the need to baiscly write down exactly the same thing as in the articles about this event, rather than linking to them...

It's a funny thing though^^ Game is insanely cheap, so I bought it ^^ Very very very similiar to game dev story for phones though..



Whose eyes are those eyes?
mr Handy
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Posted: 1st May 2013 13:38
Quote: "my only question is why you felt the need to baiscly write down exactly the same thing as in the articles about this event, rather than linking to them..."

May I answer you with an example:
Nodescript was outside of TGC forum and the link is now dead.

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Libervurto
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Posted: 1st May 2013 15:58
Thanks for posting Handy.
This is brilliant! Sadly, it seems that some of the dimmer pirates are slow to recognise themselves in the mirror, but hopefully they get the message by now. The real issue with piracy is that it's not even thought of as bad, pirating a game is no different, functionally, to opening up a spreadsheet or checking your emails. Of course the people actually cracking games know exactly what they are doing but for those downloading I doubt many even realise it's an issue. They probably think anti-piracy is a synonym for money-grubbing.

I admire the fact that GreenHeart chose to make an example of pirates instead of installing DRM. This is the best way to prevent this kind of crime, you must say "Okay you can pirate, you would do it anyway, but know how much this hurts us."

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
Matty H
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 16:29
This is great.

You should definitely use this to promote the game, I'm sure gaming websites and reviewers would appreciate this story.

Quik
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 17:40
@Obese - I have so much to say about piracy, but, i'm afraid I wont be liked at all after it.

But I do agree with your second statement there:

Quote: "This is the best way to prevent this kind of crime, you must say "Okay you can pirate, you would do it anyway, but know how much this hurts us."
"




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mr Handy
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 19:07 Edited at: 2nd May 2013 19:09
Also I want to admit, that some (many) developers promote their game only with teasers -> no demo version -> user want to test the game -> user downloads "free test" copy -> ENTWINE:
1. user is nice -> he loves the game and buys it; erases "free test"
2. user is greedy -> he loves the game and praise developer; plays "free test" forever with pokerface
3. [if the game is true crap I don't take it in count]

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ionstream
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 19:19
Really blows the whole "people only pirate from big greedy corporations!" or "people only pirate BECAUSE of DRM!" arguments out of the water.

KeithC
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 19:31
People pirate because they are thieves, plain and simple. The "sticking it to big corporations" is just an excuse they use to justify it to themselves and others. Now we see what's been happening for a long time; they pirate from anyone, large or small.

-Keith

Michael P
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 20:17 Edited at: 2nd May 2013 20:27
Well I agree that pirating is all bad up to a point.

My exception is the long term impact its had on the music industry. Without pirating do you think Spotify or other services like this would exist in the way that they do today? Music and film industries seemed very reluctant and slow to utilize new technology for delivering content to customers.

Now that we can legally (purchase) download and access content as easily or almost as easily as we could pirate it I see no good reason to pirate things. But it was a very different landscape only a few years ago.

Also - we have the capability to locate peers in torrent networks so why are governments / the industries themselves not persuing pirates directly? I would guess that the majority of people are not sitting behind a proxy. And another point, is it not fairly trivial to disrupt a peer to peer network? All it would take is a few rogue clients DDOSing peers and otherwise spewing out bad data. So I am surprised more isn't being done on attacking the pirates in this way.

Michael P
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 20:29 Edited at: 2nd May 2013 20:29
[accidentally posted twice..]

Jeku
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 22:30
Quote: "People pirate because they are thieves, plain and simple. The "sticking it to big corporations" is just an excuse they use to justify it to themselves and others."


Agreed 100%. At least when I was a kid people justified piracy honestly; they didn't have or want to spend money on the product. Nowadays people want to blame everyone else but themselves for piracy.


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Libervurto
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Posted: 2nd May 2013 23:04 Edited at: 2nd May 2013 23:06
Quote: "People pirate because they are thieves, plain and simple."

That's very simplistic. I don't think it helps to brand people as thieves, not when this is such an abstract form of theft that the consequences aren't immediately apparent.

It requires so little effort to pirate something and it's so widespread that it's not even a taboo any more. Messages like this are what's required to get through to people and persuade them to stop pirating.

There are some cases where I think piracy is morally acceptable: if the game is not available in your region, if the game places unreasonable restrictions on play (I would be okay with people cracking Sim City 2013 or Diablo III), if the game is ludicrously expensive (like in Brazil where AAA games cost $160).

Basically, I'm in favour of piracy when developers/publishers/governments do things that harm the industry but the pirates have to play fair. This game was an $8 digital download, there is no justification for pirating it.

The difficulty in learning is not acquiring new knowledge but relinquishing the old.
xplosys
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 02:17
Quote: "I don't think it helps to brand people as thieves, not when this is such an abstract form of theft that the consequences aren't immediately apparent."


Yeah, I know what you mean. It's like... your not pregnant until it shows.
Phaelax
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 02:37
Quote: "I would be okay with people cracking Sim City 2013 or Diablo III"

Sim City I can see as it's a single player game, but why D3?


Theft implies you take something away from someone. Piracy copies that something, it does not deprive anyone else of it. And if you're thinking that yes it does take something away, it takes away money from the developers, well that's only assuming I had any intention of ever actually buying it in the first place.

So I wouldn't call pirates the same as thieves in this case. For example, I enjoyed the original Thief so much which came free with my sound card that I downloaded Thief 2 when it came out. But I really enjoyed the game so I later ended up buying Thief 2 anyway, even though I didn't need to. I then went on to buy Thief 3 and I'll buy the next one.


I have one question though, who here can honestly say they've never pirated anything on the internet? You've never copied another program or downloaded an MP3 of your favorite song.

"You're all wrong. You're all idiots." ~Fluffy Rabbit
rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 02:58 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 03:36
Quote: "Basically, I'm in favour of piracy when developers/publishers/governments do things that harm the industry but the pirates have to play fair. This game was an $8 digital download, there is no justification for pirating it."

There is no justification for pirating....period, its theft.
Developers/publishers/governments are not the cause of piracy, you might think they are being restrictive but thats a symptom and not the cause.
There was a time that pirating software and games was a very lucrative business for the criminal community,before all this stuff was readily available online you could visit outdoor markets and such and purchase disks of everything from movies to full software, the idea that its some sort of romantic rebellion against 'The Man or big business' is total BS.

If you dont want to pay $160 bucks for a game in Brazil then it might be better for you to purchase it online, those poor Brazilians your concerned about would most likely know this.

Going on this logic it's ok if I steal this weeks groceries because the farmers/government are to blame for high food prices.
Maybe steal a car while I am at it......

a. You wouldn't have bought it anyway, so what the heck?
b. Its a digital download, so who's it hurting.
c. These people make tons of cash they wont miss mine.
d. They deserve to be ripped off because they make it difficult for honest users with their methods and attempts to fight piracy. (this one is my personal favorite for obvious reasons)

Wut?


You wanted it, you didn't want to pay for it, so you pirated it. That's the truth of it..you can try and justify it all you want.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Ortu
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 04:39
Quote: "You wanted it, you didn't want to pay for it, so you pirated it. That's the truth of it..you can try and justify it all you want."


agreed.

Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 04:47
Quote: "There is no justification for pirating....period, its theft. "


Do explain how obtaining a copy of some binary data equates to the classic definition of theft:

Quote: "In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it."


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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:01
Quote: "Do explain how obtaining a copy of some binary data equates to the classic definition of theft:"

Certainly...as a developer yourself, the fundamentals of intellectual property alone should at the very least spring to mind.
You don't think all the coding, media, artwork and all the work put into something has any value just cause you think its 'some binary data'?

I made a fence from a tree but the person who stole it reckoned it was just a tree...yeah right!

I take it you will be quite happy when/if you ever create something worth selling that you will retain the same attitude.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:10 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 05:11
The property you are taking from the owner is the money. It is money that they would normally have if you payed for it, but you didn't pay for it, and what should be theirs, the money, is not. Therefore, pirating is indeed theft. It's no different than driving a car off the lot and taking it as your own without paying for it.

Also, the person who created this 'binary data' always owns the binary data, and you only get to use a copy of it that isn't necessarily your own. What is yours is a license to use it, so I'm pretty sure using something without obtaining a license could indeed be considered theft. That of course is based upon my understanding of software sharing and distribution laws and such, I may be wrong.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:12
Quote: "I made a fence from a tree but the person who stole it reckoned it was just a tree...yeah right!"


See, you're making invalid comparisons again that don't apply because we're not talking about physical theft.

If, for example, I already bought the game, but then downloaded a cracked version because of DRM, I wouldn't be stealing it. Nor would I be stealing it if I simply downloaded the game where I wouldn't have paid for it anyway. No one is losing anything.

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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:13 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 05:15
You are trying to say that this part doesn't count
Quote: "In common usage, theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent"


because of this part
Quote: "with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it"


Seriously? I am not interested in nitpicking whether is physical theft or intellectual theft, or depriving someone...its theft and thats how I see it.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:15
But you're not taking someone's property, you're simply making yourself a copy of it.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:20 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 05:26
I think we can all agree that as developers trying to make a career that doesn't involve stacking supermarket shelves or serving drinks, we wouldn't want our own games to be pirated.

I think we can also all agree that humans naturally prefer the path of least resistance. And people do it all the time. As Phaelax said, who here hasn't pirated anything online? It's so easy, it almost feels like the established way to do it.

We don't sit around the forum and complain about how big banks steal lots of money and evade tax, politics is against the AUP. But I submit that this is a situation just like that one, except on a much, much smaller scale, money-wise. It's all just people taking the path of least resistance and reducing expenditure.

I'm not here to say one side is right and the other is wrong, or vice versa. I'm actually going to take the middle ground in this one, and say that this is a systemic problem, it emerged on it's own and it's been beyond our control so far. The good thing about these problems is that they force people to adapt and innovate, both their business models and their creations. Look at Game of Thrones, it's such a good show that the creators don't even care that it's pirated, in fact, being pirated so much is more of a compliment to them than anything. Many fashion brands study rip-off brands to measure their popularity. We have a lot to lose if we try to stop the pirates by force, and we have a lot to gain if we learn to adapt. The solution certainly isn't simple in any sense, but I trust the hive-mind can figure it out. We have to figure something out anyway, because when 3D printing becomes big, this will be a much bigger problem.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:35 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 05:40
Quote: "But you're not taking someone's property, you're simply making yourself a copy of it."

Not just that, your seeding it out to others, in effect uploading and distributing it as you 'copy', maybe that thought might change your perspective a little.

Your missing the point as well, or ignoring it.....whatever.

If you think I am making invalid comparisons then that's fair enough, I don't, they are just as puerile as yours and that's the point. Maybe you believe your argument is clever, breaking down what amounts to Art, Employment, Talent, Creativity (food on the table) down to basic binary data, in an attempt at making it seem worthless. But I am not buying it.

I earned my living in Fine Arts, now its digital Art and the medium makes no difference to me.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:43
Quote: "Not just that, your seeding it out to others, in effect uploading and distributing it as you 'copy', maybe that thought might change your perspective a little."


Not necessarily; you can disable uploading.

Quote: "If you think I am making invalid comparisons then that's fair enough, I don't, they are just as puerile as yours and that's the point."


Which of my comparisons are 'puerile'? I think I've made some valid points, which you haven't yet countered.

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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:45 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 05:48
Quote: "Which of my comparisons are 'puerile'? I think I've made some valid points, which you haven't yet countered."

Read above posts......
You want me to keep repeating myself? If you don't get it then you don't get it and no point in me going over it again, its not merely data anymore than your merely atoms, get real.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:48
I see no reason to act in that manner. I don't "get it" because you haven't yet provided a reasonable explanation for why making a copy of something is bad.

Just FYI I don't condone piracy.

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Zotoaster
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:49
I think rolfy's point is that if you make a copy, you have no reason to pay for it, and thus the developers' work goes unrewarded. And he has a point. I would be gutted too if I worked my butt off and everyone just copied it.

"everyone forgets a semi-colon sometimes." - Phaelax
rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:52 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 05:58
Sigh! One last attempt, its not yours to copy. In what manner am I acting?....frustrated....maybe.
To me it's simple we will skip the semantics...you can say 'copying' is not theft...when you play that game or watch that movie or use that software without paying for it...its theft.

I don't care what the dictionary definition of 'theft' is, thats actually up to the courts and they don't care either, if your nitpicking the difference in this way just to push my buttons you did a great job.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 05:56
Quote: "One last attempt, its not yours to copy."


True, but can you really consider it theft if you're not physically depriving the author of their wares, especially if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway? That's my point.

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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 06:00
Grrrr

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 06:02 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 06:13
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or something.

I do share your viewpoint, I just find it hard to put into logic (or a least, words) why it's bad, and I'm interested to hear if others can do it. Anyone?

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rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 06:28
Sometimes ya just gotta accept its more complicated than simple definition.
Particularly when its how you earn your living.
I honestly don't understand your argument any more than you seem to be understanding mine.

I don't trip over...I do random gravity checks.
Dark Java Dude 64
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 07:16
Quote: "True, but can you really consider it theft if you're not physically depriving the author of their wares, especially if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway?"
You are not rationally reasoning here. :/

Does it really matter if it's physical?

http://www.google.com/
Jeku
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 07:40
Quote: "There are some cases where I think piracy is morally acceptable: if the game is not available in your region, if the game places unreasonable restrictions on play (I would be okay with people cracking Sim City 2013 or Diablo III), if the game is ludicrously expensive (like in Brazil where AAA games cost $160)."


That doesn't make sense. Piracy is not the same as cracking. Pirating a game because you don't like the "always-on" component is not a justifiable reason. Cracking a game you've already paid for is not the same things.

Also, if the game is not available in your region, then what right do you have to just take it? Do you really feel entitled to just take things because the publisher doesn't make it available on every platform in every country? That reminds me of when my friend told me that because HBO doesn't sell Game of Thrones on Blu-Ray, that he felt it was justifiable to simply torrent the show. That is some abstract logic if you ask me.

Quote: "especially if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway?"


Can you imagine if that was a legal excuse?

Me: "I'm sorry, judge, but I wouldn't have paid for it anyway!"

Judge: "Oh. Well in that case, go ahead!"


Senior Developer - CBS Interactive Music Group
Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 07:45
Quote: "That doesn't make sense. Piracy is not the same as cracking. Pirating a game because you don't like the "always-on" component is not a justifiable reason. Cracking a game you've already paid for is not the same things. "


Cracking is still illegal AFAIK though

of course, if something is illegal then it has to be simply wrong!



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easter bunny
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 08:00
Downloading pirated games is exactly the same as stealing them from the store, almost. It'd be more as if someone else has broken into a [real] games store and told everyone about it so you go along that night and help yourself to whatever you like. He would be in the most trouble (ie. the Cracker who makes the crack), but You've still stolen. The excuse that 'I wouldn't have bought those games anyway' is really quite... well... I won't say what I was going to say cos some of you might be a bit offended

the only difference between stealing these games from the store and downloading pirates content is stealing the physical disks. These disks are worth around $0.50 which means that by downloading a $100 game you are stealing $99.50

mr Handy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 10:41 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 12:31
Quote: "Cracking is still illegal"

If you are cracking (hacking) game only to make it work and tech support can't (don't want to) help you - it is legal.

Quote: "But you're not taking someone's property, you're simply making yourself a copy of it."

If someone made a science paper and want $1 for sharing it, would you "take a copy" when that someone doesn't see you?

Also why my post about "test copy" was ignored - all of you do this and just shy to say?

edit: typos etc

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Thraxas
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 10:42
I always look at it as stealing: I developed software. To develop this software I used my time. Time which I could have used doing another job.. another job which pays me money...

You weren't going to buy it anyway? So what? That doesn't make the time I spent creating it any less. You stole my time, time I could have used elsewhere to earn money another way. So, yes you did deprive me of money.

Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 12:26 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 12:28
Quote: "But you're not taking someone's property, you're simply making yourself a copy of it."

The whole "piracy is not theft" point is moot, you might as well say "murder is not theft". I don't think we need to start picking at semantics and legal definitions here.

Quote: "That doesn't make sense. Piracy is not the same as cracking. Pirating a game because you don't like the "always-on" component is not a justifiable reason. Cracking a game you've already paid for is not the same things."

You are right I meant cracking in the case of Diablo and Sim City. I have no problem with someone who would have paid for a game, or has paid for a game yet is being denied access to it, cracking it. If the publisher gives people no option to pay for their game then I don't think it's unreasonable for them to pirate it.

Heck, when PSN went down and I wanted to play Heavy Rain but couldn't, even though it's a single player game, that seriously pissed me off. If there was a cracked version of that game available you bet I would've downloaded it because I paid for that game and here I was unable to play it for arbitrary reasons.

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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 17:32
Quote: "Does it really matter if it's physical?"


Well that's exactly the point I'm questioning.

Quote: "Can you imagine if that was a legal excuse? "


I'd have to ask the judge exactly how I was depriving the author of anything if I was simply obtaining a digital copy of something I wouldn't have paid for anyway. I know I'd still be found guilty, but it'd give me a clearer answer than anyone else has given me thus far.

Quote: "That doesn't make sense. Piracy is not the same as cracking. Pirating a game because you don't like the "always-on" component is not a justifiable reason. Cracking a game you've already paid for is not the same things. "


What about torrenting a cracked version of a game you've already paid for? It's illegal, but is it morally wrong?

Quote: "Downloading pirated games is exactly the same as stealing them from the store, almost."


I don't think you're aware of how stores operate. Stores buy in goods (in this case video games), and then they sell them on for a profit. If you steal these physical items you are costing the store money, since they paid for them initially.

Quote: "If someone made a science paper and want $1 for sharing it, would you "take a copy" when that someone doesn't see you?"


I think there are obviously exceptions to the rule, and I'd imagine most of us agree that not paying for something that is priced so affordable is just wrong.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 17:43 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 18:12
The difference between piracy and stealing, is that if you steal something - you wont come back to buy it later.

Quote: "the only difference between stealing these games from the store and downloading pirates content is stealing the physical disks. These disks are worth around $0.50 which means that by downloading a $100 game you are stealing $99.50 "



10 years ago maybe - nowadays you hardly ever buy the CDs... considering - USB ports for all consoles, virtual disks on the computer x)



A question for all of you - About piracy, how much should a pirate get punished?
for example, i know the punishment for piracy can be UP TO 5 YEARS in prison, and MILLIONS to pay back - whilst, say a rapist + physical assault gets 3 years and about 6,5k to pay back (dollars)


Is this a good rights system?



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KeithC
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:10 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 18:15
Quote: "That's very simplistic. I don't think it helps to brand people as thieves, not when this is such an abstract form of theft that the consequences aren't immediately apparent."


Simplistic or not doesn't matter. It is what it is.



Quote: "True, but can you really consider it theft if you're not physically depriving the author of their wares, especially if you wouldn't have paid for it anyway? That's my point."


That's irrelevant. You guys can play semantics all you want, but wrong is wrong. The intent is there. You don't need it to live, therefore it's a "want". This is the same sense of entitlement I hear everyday where I work. The criminals there say the same thing: "It ain't my fault; I wanted it, and they had it....simple".

Whether it's digital or not, doesn't make it right. Just because they don't sell it in your Country...does NOT entitle you to it illegally. It still amazed me how people feel they are entitled to these things, one way or another.

Quote: "But you're not taking someone's property, you're simply making yourself a copy of it."


Again, semantics. It wasn't yours to begin with, in any way, shape or form. It sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing....again.

As far as how much time a pirate should get...

I see differing sentences inside all the time. One guy had too much crack on him, and he's doing more time than someone who killed another. Punishment should fit the crime, but it should also add on for subsequent offenses. Start it out with a hefty fine (can't pay it...then it's jail time); then fine and jail time. Follow that up with an actual prison sentence. It's only a matter of time, before the government realizes how much money they're losing in taxes (not to mention the lobbying that will be done). They'll have the ability to start tracking the actual "culprits" down. We'll see how the average 18 year old deals with being in the same place as hardened criminals, who stole "real stuff".

-Keith

rolfy
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:13
Quote: "It sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing....again."

Yep

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Benjamin
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:15
Why do some people always have to get confrontational in a debate? I'm simply playing devil's advocate. If you can't engage in civilized debate (and it's evident that some people here can't), simply don't bother posting at all.

Quote: "The difference between piracy and stealing, is that if you steal something - you wont come back to buy it later."


I think that's a valid point, at least in some part.

Quote: "Is this a good rights system?"


It's because the legal system values money above everything else.

Quote: "It wasn't yours to begin with, in any way, shape or form."


But does it still equate to theft? I guess you could say that you're depriving them of the rewards of their efforts, which in a sense is equivalent.

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Quik
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:17
Quote: "It's because the legal system values money above everything else."


Beautiful world we live in isnt it?



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KeithC
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:19 Edited at: 3rd May 2013 18:21
Quote: "But does it still equate to theft? I guess you could say that you're depriving them of the rewards of their efforts, which in a sense is equivalent."


Again, semantics. If something's not yours (meaning someone else made it/owns it/etc.), and you take it..then it's absolutely theft. There is no other way around it.

Quote: "Why do some people always have to get confrontational in a debate? I'm simply playing devil's advocate. If you can't engage in civilized debate (and it's evident that some people here can't), simply don't bother posting at all."


You actions in the past, attitude, etc.; play a part in the responses you get. You're not playing devil's advocate at all; all you do is try to "pick" at people here, and put up irrational arguements. Your warn/slap/ban record attests to that.

Quote: "Beautiful world we live in isnt it?"

Weird how people actually want to get paid for their work. So they can do silly things like feed themselves and their families.

-Keith

Libervurto
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:24
@Benjamin - If someone took a photograph of you taking a shower and posted it on the internet would that be okay? ...
They didn't do anything to you and they didn't steal anything from you right?

@All
I can understand people who pirate games they cannot afford. It's not like stealing a car because you can't afford it, digital media can be reproduced freely and so there's no real reason why any piece of software shouldn't be available to everyone who wants it. I empathize with these arguments and agree with them on principle, but that is not how the capitalist economy most of us live in works. It is the publisher's right to distribute their software in whatever fashion they choose, and the law must support that decision and protect their property. No one has a right to piracy just because they disagree with the publisher on how to distribute the game. If I ever make something worth releasing I will let players pay what they want, but that is my choice, no one has the right to force their preferred system onto others.

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BlackFox
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Posted: 3rd May 2013 18:27
Quote: "Why do some people always have to get confrontational in a debate? I'm simply playing devil's advocate. If you can't engage in civilized debate (and it's evident that some people here can't), simply don't bother posting at all."


Simple. You are debating and mincing words with those that have been in this industry since the dawn of time. Those of us that sell media know what the laws are regarding software distribution. You get a torrent or crack for a piece of software because tech support won't help or the software does not work then it is morally wrong- plain and simple (and in some countries it is a violation of software [aka EULA] laws). If you can live with doing so, then that says a lot about your morals.


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