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3 Dimensional Chat / Double sided planes in gameSpace for clothing

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 14:40
I'm trying to create a long coat for a game character I'm working on. This coat will billow and move as the object does ( this will be manually animated since gamespace doesnt have cloth simulation) and I have modelled it with a plane. Planes in gamespace are single sided, meaning that it is only visible from behind. There are rendering options to have it dualsided but this doesnt actually affect the geometry. Obviously coats should be visible from all angles, and so I want to know how I can set it so that gamespace will alter the geometry to have polygons on both sides. It should be noted that simply adding faces to the other side means that trying to move a vertex on one side will not move anything on the other. This means that my cloth wont be flat, and that it requires loads of additional effort to make it line up properly. I hope this makes sense.

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The crazy
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 19:39
Well, theres some kind of code in db that has to do with culling I believe. Something like set cull on/off perhaps? You should consult your manual for that as I am not sure. That's the only idea I have...

Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 22:05
I believe culling hides polygons which arent visible in the camera. Thanks for the suggestion, but it doesnt help my needs. I'm hoping to fix the issue within gamespace, rather than in darkbasic pro. Im basically looking for a way to have a kind of semi double sided plane, so that the polygons are seen from both sides but can be altered and moved as if they were only on one side.

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 22:22
Sorry for double post but; The best comparison I can make to the solution I'm looking for is a matrix in dbpro. When you position vertexs upon it, you get the result on both sides as opposed to one side of polys still being flat. Anyone thought of anything yet

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 22:29
It is the culling commands. Culling stops polygons from being drawn when theyre facing away from the camera. Set the clothing object's cull to 0 and you'll see both sides, using the SET OBJECT CULL command.

Another problem that could've been solved by doing 1 search in the help files.

Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 22:37
That would be fine if there actually was two sides to the cloth on my model. Which is kind of the point, I want to have it double sided but I dont know how to make it double sided yet be editable like it were only one.... I might have to make an image to show the problem.

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Moondog
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Posted: 4th Mar 2007 23:08 Edited at: 4th Mar 2007 23:10
lol, sucha simple fix..when making a plane object in gamespace, just rightlclick the plane model icon, and deselect the single-sided option

MOONDOG


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RUCCUS
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 01:39
You're plains shouldnt need 2 sides, the only reason a polygon isn't drawn from 1 side is if it's being culled, otherwise it will have 2 sides. Have you tried using the cull command? What happened? Because Ive used it numerous times in the past to show away-facing, 1 sided polygons.

indi
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 08:27
there are two options to this question.


all faces on the whole model will be culled with the command set object or set object cull to show both sides of every polygon on that model.


or


certain polygons that require dual faces will require extra polygons to show both sides at once increasing the polygon count but reducing that factor over the whole model.

Slooper
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 15:49
if you really want a plane with 2 sides it is possible by making a box and then wield the 4 vertexes from one side of the box with the opposite ones on the other side. That is how i make doubble sided planes anyways


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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 17:17 Edited at: 5th Mar 2007 17:18
Yes yes moondog, like I didnt try that one
When you do that, trying to manipulate it LIKE CLOTH leaves one side of polygons flat with the change only applying to one side. This is a pain in the backside.
Ruccus, no need to get worked up about this, I dont care how many times youve typed set object cull, its not the fix I need. As indi rightly points out I want my character culled and dont plan to have the clothing as a seperate object, and so unless there is a specific limb culling option...
Slooper, your idea might work - I shall try it and see.
I'm not a noob people! Stop acting like I am!
Thanks to some of you for your advice, but others....

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tyrano man
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 19:58
Right click on the plane tool, and click two sided

READ THE GAMESPACE MANUAL!!! ALL OF IT!!! caps off

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 20:41
READ MY OTHER POSTS!!! ALL OF THEM!!! caps off
But just so that you have no excuses, doing that means that unlike cloth, pulling aroun vertices on one side doesnt affect the vertiecies on the other. This requires alot of extra work when I'm hoping that there is a better way of doing this.

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tyrano man
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 21:07
It joins them to the same 4 vertices, well it does on GS 1.6 anyways.

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 21:15
Naturally it makes no difference until you decide to increase the poly count of the plane I dont know if you realised, but cloth wouldnt be one single polygon on each side of the plane. Increasing the resolution of the plane leads to the problem I have mentioned countless times before. Trying to weld each vertex to the opposite vertex doesnt work... Im just out of ideas! Thanks for your input

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tyrano man
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 21:30 Edited at: 5th Mar 2007 22:41
Theres no way to avoid poly count problems mate.

Maybe you could have a small lip at the bottom, and make it solid. Then animate in milkshape, which you should have because you got gamespace.

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 22:22 Edited at: 5th Mar 2007 22:23
I'm sorry, you've lost me. My guess is you mis-interpretated my last post. I think that I will simply use the double sided plane, and manouvre two sets of vertices, or I'll never get anywhere with my character. By all means explain what you meant though- it might be the answer. Nope, I do not have milkshape. Perhaps I should. Please explain why I should.
Sorry for seeming aggressive by the way, tyrano man, but I am so pissed off with looking like a noob as a result of this thread. Thanks again to all that tried to help.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 22:34
Im sorry I fail to see how I got worked up at all, I recommended using a command, you responded back without any information as to wether you tried using the command or not, I asked a second time to make sure since (last time I checked) I cant read minds, and you threw a fit.

Would you like proof of the cull commands working?

Code A, the camera is inside a box, the box has culling turned on:


Code B, the camera is again inside a box, the box now has culling turned off.


Code A runs to let you see nothing, since the polygons are all facing away from the camera and thus being culled. Code B runs showing both sides of the each polygon on the box.


I dont see how this isnt what you want. You want to have a model of some sort of clothes draped over your player, and you want both sides of every polygon on the clothing model to be shown. With culling off, you only see the faces that point towards the camera, and clearly, with culling on, you see the faces pointing away and towards the camera, which would allow you to see the clothing from both sides, without adding polygons.

If you only want to do this with the clothes, and not the entire player model, keep the clothing separate. If you want to cull certain faces on the clothing to keep the framerate up, separate the clothing to be culled into 1 object and the clothing not to be culled into another, and handle accordingly. If animated properly and positioned to line up with each other, you wont notice the difference. That said, turning off culling for just some clothing really wont effect your framerate that much, there comes a time when you have to draw the line.

tyrano man
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 22:41 Edited at: 5th Mar 2007 22:44
Don't get anoyed. I am not too good myself, and were all just here to have fun, let's keep it that way.

Apollo canceled out my spaces, so that made no scence.

I got milkshape with Gamespace.

Milkshape is a stand alone program, but was actually originally made as a way to animate models for GS. You can assign Vertices and Animation is alot more easy, and can be more complex.

I mean to have the cloth like my screenie. I just rushed this in 30 seconds, with primatives; but you'll get the idea. (of corse you'll add arms and legs and stuff, but hey, this is just an example)

Good luck on the animation
Tyrano

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Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 22:54
Thanks tyrano man!

Woah WOAH RUCCUS! I can see that your trying extra hard to help me, but Ive explained to you already, set object cull undoubtedly works, but its not feasible nor practical for me to have my clothing as a seperate entity. Loving your snide intro to that post "since (last time I checked) I cant read minds, and you threw a fit." Threw a fit? HA! If you think thats a fit... So are you going to let this culling thing die now? Yes it will work. Yes your obviously a great coder. No, I am not splitting clothes into upto 2 seperate models. Thanks again!
See what i did there? Its more of those patronising comments that evidently gets to and pisses you off. Know why I started it? Cos you treated me like a noob in your first post. I'm too tired to care now though.
Sorry tyrano man, couldnt look at the fruits of your labour yet, I'm trying to get an early night now so will check tomorrow. Had know idea bout milkshape and its intent, sounds like it might be worth a purchase assuming it costs money unlike that blender...

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tyrano man
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 22:59 Edited at: 5th Mar 2007 22:59
Milkshape is only $25.

I dunno why I got it free with gamespace, you may wan't to check the downloads link if your e-mail from caligari isn't deleted. It may still be there, or maybe it was a one time offer. $25 isn't much though.

BTW does GS's anims work in DBP? I don't have DBP, but i wanna know. GS's export for .X seems to be dodgy.

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RUCCUS
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 23:02
Ah, clearly you didnt throw a fit.

dononeton
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Posted: 5th Mar 2007 23:59 Edited at: 6th Mar 2007 00:05
Dont shout just yet
Right click on the plane tool uncheck sigle-sided, you could use the add edge tool and make an edge from one vert to the diangle vert and do the same for the other set and the same for the back. You want to have a vert in the center of the front set of faces and the same for the back. This should do the trick, it should fold in the front and the back of the plane.

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indi
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Posted: 6th Mar 2007 02:06
Shadow Coderer, people are offering advice thats all.

I think your losing it a little and getting frustrated on your own accord, dont worry too much if you think your coming across as a newb instead of the noob. Thats a given for all of us when attempting something outside of our safe areas. Walk away from the problem for a while and relax a little, when your frustrated you lose iq and the ability to focus on the problem at hand, like we all do sometimes.

Your replies to peoples advice is negative and going to push people away on your next question.

Take a big breath and allow all of the solutions to digest. Thank anyone who tries to offer you sound advice and try to explain which direction your headed.

There is no point having a go at anyone spending free time to solve your own problem.

Look at it objectively

[1] Start a new folder call it cloth testing
[2] Create a series of examples with each idea and test each one.
[3] Numerate the filenames and add a text file with details of the method you took
[4] Compare all of the tests you have done to come up with a solution

Good luck with your problem mate, but please leave any fears at the door.

Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 6th Mar 2007 20:18 Edited at: 6th Mar 2007 20:57
@RUCCUS
Just to clarify, you have been offering good and effective advice- and I will undoubtedly be asking coding related questions in the near future that you will be able to assist me with. I therefore apologise for patronising you.
@tyrano man
For some aggrivating reason, vertex animation is not exported in the .x exporter! How on earth am I too animate my cloth other wise?? But thats another question entirely. Other wise, Ive heard that the animation is a bit challenging in gamespace, but havent used it much to prove this. I think I got a free milkshape exporter, which is a bit useless since I'm pretty sure I didnt recieve milkshape itself... will check your example and get back to you asap.
Edit: HOLY CRAP! Ive got Milkshape setup, THE ZIPPED EDITION! Time for an internet search for ms3d tuts. I looked at your image there, and is that the lip you spoke of? Im not sure if it will work for me since my lip would be visible to the player because the trench coat doesnt encircle him like a dress or cloak. I'm just so thrilled that I have milkshape... can it import gamespace object files, can it export .x with vertex animation? SO MANY QUESTIONS....!
@dononeton
Thats an interesting solution there. The issue is, that will increase the polycount by 4. I cant sacrifcice that number of polygons, since I'm not effiecient enough elsewhere in my model (like the head) to achieve my limit of 2.5k
@indi
I might be coming across as a little frustrated, I can certainly see some of my posts as being a little aggressive, but I'm perfectly calm here at home for all the difference that makes. Your advice is reasonable and sensible, as I have come to expect from the mods on these forums.
As a general note to all, thank you for the effort you have put in to help me and I can only thank you in return, and try to help you; should you need it.

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tyrano man
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Posted: 6th Mar 2007 22:29
Iv'e realised that simply, the animation in gamespace isn't compatable with .X. But thats where milkshape comes in. Rig and animate him/her in milkshape; but it's not easy.

If you can see the front of the cloak, just extrude one more time, then snap the vertices, It will look great if you do this properly.

Tyrano

Yay I got FF XII, and it totally rocks! Love the new battle system
Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 6th Mar 2007 22:43
surely the riging in gamespace would be fine? I just want to do as much in gamespace as possible because I'm too lazy to learn a new package

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tyrano man
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 17:50
.X doesn't export animation. So you got to use another package. Gamespace was designed to mod games, not create them. Thats why it exports as lots of game formats

Tyrano

Yay I got FF XII, and it totally rocks! Love the new battle system
indi
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 17:56
milkshape is cheap enough and easy enough to compliment your other package that wont export if thats the case at hand.

Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 18:15
@indi: Seems to be the issue, yes. What package do you use, out of interest?
I think I'll continue to model with gamespace, because I love its modelling tools and interface. I'll then experiment with rigging in both to see which I prefer, and obviously I have no choice but to export with milkshape.
And I think your right about the moding thing, tyrano man. I reckon that is what GS was intended for up until the game creators said, "We'll sell your software on our site, and say that its built for game developers."

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tyrano man
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 20:15
You'll have to completely animate in MS if i'm correct, because I don't know if GS exports animation data to milkshape.

Tyrano

Yay I got FF XII, and it totally rocks! Love the new battle system
Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 20:16
Can milkshape read the gamespace object/scene file?

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tyrano man
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 20:18
I Don't know, I haven't tried it, make a quick stick or something, and animate it bending. Then try to export and import.

Hope it does work, because I prefer GS too

Tyrano

Yay I got FF XII, and it totally rocks! Love the new battle system
Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 20:21
Will do. Check the head model in my new thread dude!

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JimB
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 22:17
Quote: "You'll have to completely animate in MS if i'm correct, because I don't know if GS exports animation data to milkshape."


I think you'll find it does.
Shadow Coderer
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 22:19
Oh goood- thanks JimB

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tyrano man
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 22:56
Woo thanks! I prefer animating in GS!

Woot, thanks!
Tyrano

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JimB
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:13
For cloth animation try this plugin its suitable for TS 6.x so is compatible with GS 1.5/1.6
http://ckgamefactory.hp.infoseek.co.jp/tsxe/clothmot.html
dononeton
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:13
I have exported an animated model from GS to DBPro.

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JimB
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:15
Quote: "I have exported an animated model from GS to DBPro"


Me too.
JimB
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:23
Did you make sure that the "Export animation" box was checked?

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dononeton
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:23
Why does he did Milkshape 3d?

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Moondog
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:24
lol, so have i...i'm wondering how you set up your models shadow coder? also, how are you exporting and what options are you setting? the latest release of GS was supposed to fix some major export issues with the x file format.

MOONDOG


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JimB
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:35
Quote: "Why does he did Milkshape 3d?"


Some like to export to MS3d and use its .X exporter.
dononeton
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:36
Is there any benefits?

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JimB
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Posted: 7th Mar 2007 23:37 Edited at: 7th Mar 2007 23:40
Quote: "Is there any benefits?"


Not really they are just more used to MS3d's .X exporter I guess.

The only drawback with GS is you can save your .x model but can rarely load it back in
Moondog
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Posted: 8th Mar 2007 03:01
thats why you keep the original file

MOONDOG


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indi
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Posted: 8th Mar 2007 04:07
sounds like this problem is solved, thanks to all who supplied the valuable GS animation export concerns.

tyrano man
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Posted: 8th Mar 2007 08:12 Edited at: 8th Mar 2007 08:26
Really? I don't have DBP (but i have coded before). But I can't seem to get animation data into FPSC, and all that needs is the .X file to be correct.

EDIT: don't worry sorted it now

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JimB
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Posted: 8th Mar 2007 09:47
Quote: "thats why you keep the original file"


Yes I know

FPSC .x models should be in compressed binary,GS cant export in that format.

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