Sorry your browser is not supported!

You are using an outdated browser that does not support modern web technologies, in order to use this site please update to a new browser.

Browsers supported include Chrome, FireFox, Safari, Opera, Internet Explorer 10+ or Microsoft Edge.

3 Dimensional Chat / Weird Perspectives, at least to me.

Author
Message
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 17:57
Link
I posted this question in the Geisha House thread, but it hasn't been answered. So I thought it may be best to repost it here for some answers.

I haven't done much in 3D, but I'm heading that way. But I tend to notice a trend, and I'm not sure if it's the coding, or DBpro itself.

Is their a reason that a lot of 3d screenshots I see, I can instantly tell that they are done in DBPro?

What I mean is... A lot of the overhead screenshots that I have seen over the years just don't look right to me. Regardless of the quality of textures, models used. It just seems to me that the viewport is too greatly exagerated for the distance scale.

Hopefully I can better illustrate what I mean. Say for instance a scene of 3 people standing around in generally close proximity (a few yards apart). Each person Model is represented by a stick figure. So the scene would look something like this:

Poor/Lazy man example:


It creates the feeling that if this was the real world, and you panned down to the side, the people would be walking like they needed a V8.

I really haven't done much in 3D, so I'm not sure if it's just a camera issue, or P.O.V., but something just doesn't seem right. Is it fixable?

(* More rambling, not necessary to read to answer my question)

It reminds me of a drawing class I took in college of exagerated foreshortning techniques to give an distorted strecthed 3d angle. Like looking down into a well, looking up at trees in a spawling forest of giant redwoods, or comic like depiction of an arm reaching out towards the viewer. Used in the right way, it can add an exagerated sense of depth to what is generally a small canvas (the screen). But if used as the general rendering it gives the look, at least to me, that people are too tall, and falling over, or in the worst cases... walking upside-down.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 18:56
Link
I think that would be the case with the default camera field of view. This can be changed but unfortunately it can be really fiddly. Like you'd change the FOV then have to completely redo your camera positioning. Dunno if Cash is planning on changing the FOV, but I think it could improve the realism, because your completely right.

In Nanoid I adjusted the FOV to give a more 2D look, like changed it to a much duller angle, so the bricks look less 3D - if I hadn't done that then things would have that tunnely look. I think it's a good mode for FPS camera's, but it's just one of those things that's best addressed at a projects conception, even if it means using dummy objects, but getting your camera view and FOV right early on saves a few headaches. It's a big consideration when you need to zoom into the view - because the FOV needs to be set back to something, and I've no idea what the default even is!. I suggest adding adjuster keys and experimenting, changing the FOV with keys and displaying the result.

A lot of people say the FOV in FPSC is wrong, like it's too sharp, making it look cool when your running around, but close objects appear to warp. FPSC has to zoom the camera in with the FOV as well - maybe they should add support to change the FOV with script, because Quake3 had a similar camera angle, not so bad in the low detail Quake3 environment, but with more detail up close things can look a little warped compared to what we're used to.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 19:05
Link
Thanks Van B, I think I have a better understanding now. You full y understood what I was referring to, and used the proper terms for expalining it.

I'll take a look at Nanoid.

P.S.
If Cash Curtis, sees this. I just want to clear up that I'm not picking on Geisha House. It was just the post I was reading at the time, when I figured I would finally ask this question that had been on my mind for some time now. And I wasn't sure if it was just my eyes, inexperience in 3D and DBpro's cameras, or something unavoidable. The reason that Geisha House stood out to me, is that the graphics, models, textures, looked so well done and professional - that one of the early screenshots (I just read the thread, haven't been around in a long while) suprised me with the same FOV feeling.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 20:46 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2007 08:05
Link
@zenassem -

Sorry I didn't reply in my thread, I usually let a couple replies build up before I do. I haven't posted a new video yet, so feedback has been kind of slow.

I'll play around with the FOV and see how it looks. Do you guys have any recommendations? I've never actually modified the FOV at all, I've just seen a few examples of it being done.

My inspiration for Geisha House is Ultima, which is an overhead isometric view game.



So, my 3D camera is somewhat based on that view, but I've never considered the FOV's effect on the game's perspective. I appreciate the advice, I'll see what I can do


Come see the WIP!

Attachments

Login to view attachments
Back to top
Profile PM
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 20:59 Edited at: 20th Apr 2007 21:29
Link
@Cash Curtis II,

Thanks for being recpetive to my inquiry. I edited the question out of the WIP thread, as it is more appropriate to ask it here.

By the way, I was truly blown away at how this project is coming along. So props to you and anyone/everyone who has worked on it.

Using Geisha House as an example (btw, GH seems to render better than others; so the visual experience I am referring to is somewhat harder to detect)


The Screenshot that spurred my question, was this one:


Now, I'm not sure exactly (being a newb at 3D) what to fix, or how to fix it. One thing that adds to the visual confusion for me is the Fire that looks more like a head-on shot. The three people at the bottom seem to shoot out like my description, and my mind doesn't believe that they are really in the scene. (not sure how it would look while animated). The person near the top adds to this feeling.

To visually describe it, I'd expect to see less of their (the 3 people at the bottom) front side, that close to the bottom of the screen. And less of an angle / towards the outer edges, like the plants, and the tree trunks, for instance.

Given the POV we are currently seeing, in my mind if the camera panned down to eye level perspective, the guy/knight in the middle would actually be standing leaning excessively backwards. As if coming up from a limbo contest, yet without a bend at the knees or heel. I guess a better analogy would be to say he would looks as thou being hoisted upright by a wire. The orc to the left would be leaning a bit sideways.

Also, (again not as distorted as I have seen) the orc to the lefts helmet starts to "stretch" as it approaches the left side of the screen and gets further away from what I refer to as the invisible focal point.

A poor mans reference
If this were a drawing. And perspective lines were drawn to a single dot. Here's what I think is going on.



Perhaps by adjusting the camera The focal point would be less extreme. But, if the focal poin is raised to much, you would get a different distortion. For instance if it were exaclty screen center but deep back (in 3d) you would wind up with the a perspective tha's more distorted.


I believe somewhere in the middle of these two extremes lies a better POV.
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 21:07
Link
Thing is, changing the FOV would probably make the fire more 2D, it's kinda like having a really high camera that renders a zoomed in view. But, if you wanted to go for a more Ultima style to the graphics, the FOV and a little offset to the camera position would work.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 20th Apr 2007 21:43 Edited at: 20th Apr 2007 22:53
Link
To elaborate a little further, The distortion is not as visible in art when a (camera) is say head-on and there are two focal points along the horizon (although this introduces a different distortion at extremes). Known in art as Two Point Perspective, rather than the Single Point Perspective above.

eg.

Back to top
Profile PM Email
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 22nd Apr 2007 08:05 Edited at: 22nd Apr 2007 08:11
Link
Quote: "the guy/knight in the middle would actually be standing leaning excessively backwards. "


That's not a good picture. The knight just got hit with a spear, and is almost done recoiling. That's why his little green health bar is floating near his feet. It really does throw the picture off, making the perspectives look odd.

I've been playing with the FOV in game. I set it up so that I can change it with the arrowkeys in real time. The default FOV is 61.9621391296, I've got it set close to that in the first picture. I've compared it to a FOV of 32. The main effect that it has with an overhead view is zooming. The difference becomes more apparent when the view is changed to a regular 3rd person perspective. A lower FOV doesn't warp the view as much, just like you're saying.

The angle between the two upright characters is apparent here...


The difference is subtle, but noticable.



I'll experiment some more and see if there are any negative effects to having a FOV of 32. I do appreciate the comments about GH, and the feedback. It's not something I've ever really considered, but it certainly does affect the look of the game.


Come see the WIP!

Attachments

Login to view attachments
Back to top
Profile PM
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 24th Apr 2007 17:29
Link
It's a done deal. The FOV is now set to 32. It took a little modification of the camera and zooming and such, but it works nicely now. It hasn't changed much, just a bit less zoom warping.

Since I'm familiar with the effects of FOV now, there are lots of possibilities. I'm adding mirrors right now, I'll give them a high fov.


Come see the WIP!
Back to top
Profile PM
Roxas
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Nov 2005
Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 24th Apr 2007 18:16
Link
FOV of 32 makes crash for me when i use point camera and set camera to follow commands sometimes.. This ussually happens in battle when player attacks a monster..



Back to top
Profile PM Email
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 24th Apr 2007 18:23
Link
That's interesting. I don't use those commands in Geisha House, I use a fixed camera rotated at a modifiable angle.

I went with the fixed camera because otherwise dragging objects around didn't work properly. When I get a bit of time I'll do some more testing with different FOVs and this command.


Come see the WIP!
Back to top
Profile PM
Van B
Moderator
22
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Oct 2002
Location: Sunnyvale
Posted: 24th Apr 2007 23:49
Link
It is a notable difference, I think though it's most noticable when you move - like when you run under the cover of a tree, I think it'll look more realistic when objects taller than the player go by.

Incidently, are you alpha fading objects in front of the player? - just considering him running under a tree and not seeing a snake - might be more realistic that way mind you.


Good guy, Good guy, Wan...
Back to top
Profile PM Email
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 25th Apr 2007 05:15
Link
Looks really good Cash Curtis. I feel almost silly even offering suggestions on a game so well constructed from models, to textures. But I think you nailed it!!! I can easily see the difference in the farthest left skull. Just go with whatever feels right. (I personally like the FOV).This game is going to be incredible.

And thanks for the explanation of the knight. It makes much more sense now. I should have noticed what was happening in that pic.

Great work! Very impressive!!
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Cash Curtis II
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 8th Apr 2005
Location: Corpus Christi Texas
Posted: 27th Apr 2007 06:03
Link
@zenassem -
Quote: "I feel almost silly even offering suggestions on a game "

It would be silly for me to ignore advice like this. You didn't just comment, you went the extra mile to illustrate exactly what you meant. I appreciate that, and I'm glad you like the game so far. I think that it won't dissapoint

@Van B -
Quote: "Incidently, are you alpha fading objects in front of the player?"

No alpha fading. I considered it, because I've seen it done in my son's X-men game and it looks nice. However, I really like the feeling that the game has when you're running under trees, you're obscured by the trees and can't see much. You can still fight and access the player controls without any problem.


Come see the WIP!
Back to top
Profile PM
Roxas
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Nov 2005
Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 27th Apr 2007 15:42
Link
Hey got it working.. I used fov of 32 but it needs one decimal so i used 32.6 and no crashing anymore


[B] - LINKIN PARK - [/B]
Back to top
Profile PM Email
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 27th Apr 2007 18:01 Edited at: 27th Apr 2007 18:06
Link
@TFMCR, Awesome! I'm curious, do you think your game looks better at FOV 32.6? If so, could you post a comparison screenie when you have the tome?

Thanks

[img] src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v208/zenassem/pixav.gif"[/img]
Back to top
Profile PM Email
Roxas
19
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 11th Nov 2005
Location: http://forum.thegamecreators.com
Posted: 27th Apr 2007 18:28 Edited at: 27th Apr 2007 18:33
Link
well i can show older pic and never pic.. Ill edit them here soon

edit:

Sorry that i cant post image of same situasion Cuz my battle camera is so active..

- Older -


- Newer -


Newer looks a lot of better in game than image But it still looks kewl in image too..


[B] - LINKIN PARK - [/B]

Attachments

Login to view attachments
Back to top
Profile PM Email
zenassem
21
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Mar 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posted: 27th Apr 2007 20:19
Link
Thanks. I agree. Looks good!

Back to top
Profile PM Email
Back to top

Login to post a reply

Server time is: 2024-11-26 10:52:17
Your offset time is: 2024-11-26 10:52:17