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Geek Culture / Sony take on the Nintendo handheld empire!!!!!

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empty
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Posted: 27th May 2003 17:43
Yeah you're right. At least most of us

Ogres have layers.
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 27th May 2003 18:48 Edited at: 27th May 2003 18:53
i never said it was the exact same Gecko Processor as what is in the GC ... IBM Labeled the chips Big-Gecko & Little-Gecko, they are different chips but the cores are identical.

both run on the R4600 (ARM) Core, Little-Gecko at a Unified 32Bit Level with Z80 CoPro (which is inplace of a MathCoProcessor)
Big-Gecko uses the PowerPC 128-256Bit Enhancements which also includes an FPU (128Bit) and the Mx Update (128Bit Math Extentions)

try to remember what the PowerPC actually is, because it within the Macintosh systems as well - yet they're no longer reffered to as PowerPC based systems, because the PowerPC IS NOT a SelfSufficient Processor, it is only the Higher Level functions and it requires a Core Processor still.

this is also why they both bare the name Gecko though, becuase they're cores are identical

[edit-]
btw i've emailed as a developer for the psp, wanting more information and should get a better description of what it actually entails i hope... although to be perfectly honest i believe that it is just in the very very early planning stages - they say NURBS graphics for it, yet no chip details on how they'll do that.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
empty
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Posted: 27th May 2003 19:01
Quote: "
both run on the R4600 (ARM) Core, Little-Gecko at a Unified 32Bit Level with Z80 CoPro (which is inplace of a MathCoProcessor)
Big-Gecko uses the PowerPC 128-256Bit Enhancements which also includes an FPU (128Bit) and the Mx Update (128Bit Math Extentions)

try to remember what the PowerPC actually is, because it within the Macintosh systems as well - yet they're no longer reffered to as PowerPC based systems, because the PowerPC IS NOT a SelfSufficient Processor, it is only the Higher Level functions and it requires a Core Processor still.
"


LOL
You should tell Apple and IBM about that. Somehow they must've missed it.

Ogres have layers.
Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 20:53
Why don't we just wait until it's released? The Buddha is mighty dissapointed in you

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Rob K
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Posted: 27th May 2003 21:02
"as for Quake, i find it hard to believe you with it playing fine at 640x480 at 30fps on just a 133mhz cpu w/32mb ram & 2mb SVGA card."

It is perfectly true, there was the odd slowdown in places, but it was happily playable at that resolution.

"as for Nintendo Pushing thier next console before PS3... that is the biggest load of bull i've ever heard, because Nintendo themselves have noted there is NO R&D going on for thier next home console, they're focus is on the handheld market as well as their GC."

Ninty said that they plan to bring out their next console as close to the PS3 as possible. Can you find the quote saying that there is no R&D going on?

"that aside ya know that even though the GBA has a 300Mhz processor, it doesn't have a Maths-CoProcessor or Floating Point Unit ... have you ever tried to create 3D Graphics without one?
the Maths CoPro in the 386 age and the FPU in the latter 486 are what have made 3D actually possible, you know that right?"

The 300Mhz thing is absolute bollocks - it isn't something you can even argue about. It has a 16Mhz ARM processor, end of story. It is not an opinion, it is plain, hard, fact. There would be absolutely no point in having a 300Mhz processor given the resolution of the GBA screen. Even without an FPU or M-CP, it could still pull off proper 3D polygon graphics at 160x200 or whatever the screen res is (ie. VERY, VERY low), not high poly, but several leagues away from the Doom type games which push the GBA to the limit.

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Rob K
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Posted: 27th May 2003 21:07
"You should tell Apple and IBM about that. Somehow they must've missed it."

LOL

Anyhow, the R4600 is a MIPS chip. ARM processors come in 610/710 and StrongARM varieties.

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WebDext
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Posted: 27th May 2003 21:12
Veg your out of your mind. I've written programs for the GBA it's slow as hell, can barely handle a particle system alone. It's not 300mhz or the damn thing would over heat all the time, and also if it was it would not run for 10 hours on the same batteries, maybe 10 minutes hah. Please stop giving misinformation. Sorry but people who BS to get respect bug the hell out of me.

Webby

Ian T
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Posted: 27th May 2003 21:16
300MHz? LOL , I might BUY one if it had a 300MHz... hah

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 28th May 2003 00:34
i'm not out of my mind, get the white papers on the processor ... has all of the technical specifications on it.
and a 300Mhz processor can run quite happily with just a small heatsink not even that if they're layed out right, its the ones with multiple layers on extremely small die.

0.14 300Mhz Processor with FPU & MCP will run at around 92°f
0.30 300Mhz Processor with FPU & MCP will run at around 50°f

the 0.30 one is much larger in base size, but you take out the FPU and MCP ... you loose another 30°f as they're the ones which do a bulk of the calculations, and most chips will run very happily at 20°f and at that point you don't have the multiple layers of transistors for the FPU & MCP which means that you can also make it alot flatter (Motherboard Chips are a very good example of this)

add to this it is a RISC not a MISC chip which means ONE instruction per cycle 32bit being a 4cycle base loop.
so if you put in a float, you have to process EACH float individually and without the FPU you're taking up 3 instructions for just a simple maths operation of
return = 10.0 + 50.0

and without the MCP you have to also declare and create a rule for the + operator, which means in the end for a simple

float = 10.0 + 50.0 you've taken an entire base loop.
if that chip ran at only 16Mhz like you people seem to want to believe this would mean that you'd only get 6 base loops per cycle.

if you have a double complex routine like ->
float1 = 10.0 + 50.0
float2 = 5.0 * 10.0
float3 = float1 / float2

you've gone and used up half of your processing for a single scene right there!!
and at 300Mhz this means that you'd have roughly 113 instruction lines you can perform for floats per second, and c'mon even in DBpro that ain't much.

i don't think you guys realise just how important the FPU and MCP are to modern 3D and computer calculations.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
Dazzag
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Posted: 28th May 2003 01:26
Then show me a link that def. says the chip runs at 300Mhz for the GBA. Can't find anything at all. Can find quite a lot for 16Mhz, including a quote from a bloke who is writing a language for the GBA.

As for Quake, it ran fine. Had no problems on my P1 133. That was with either 32Mb or 64Mb originally (can't remember exactly, too many upgrades), and a crappy graphics card. Wasn't the fastest or smoothest, but ran absolutely fine. Hell, even Quake 2 was just about playable with a Voodoo in it. That, but mainly Unreal was enough to make me upgrade.

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Rob K
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Posted: 28th May 2003 01:59
"i don't think you guys realise just how important the FPU and MCP are to modern 3D and computer calculations."

Yes of course I do, BUT you can STILL do graphics without them, but not anywhere NEAR the polycount that an FPU enables. The 16Mhz chip can push 50 polys /sec without an FPU, a 300Mhz chip could, on that basis, push several thousand polys / sec, which the GBA just cannot do.

"i'm not out of my mind, get the white papers on the processor ... has all of the technical specifications on it."

You were obviously looking at the wrong processor.

The GBA has a 16Mhz ARM 32bit RISC processor. Fact.

I have given several links to reliable sources which support this fact.

You cannot provide a single link to support your hypothesis, so, if the GBA really DOES have a 300Mhz chip (which it blatantly does not), it would be documented somewhere, as for the tech docs, give me a link, and give me a link which explicitly states that this chip is used in the GBA.

Why can't you just be man enough to admit you were wrong? I said something really stupid in one of the 3D Forum posts, and I admitted that I was wrong and apologised. Now it is your turn.

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the_winch
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Posted: 28th May 2003 02:14 Edited at: 28th May 2003 02:39
I played quake on a 133 and it was perfectly acceptable and this was on an out of the box office machine.

As for the gba processor running at 300mhz

For 300mhz
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=gba+300mhz&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

For 16mhz
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=gba+16mhz&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Also this link
http://hem.passagen.se/lysek/gbacd.htm
Check the links at the bottom of the page.
From one of the many sites
"The Game Boy Advance has a 32bit ARM7TDMI RISC processor at 16.78MHz"
Rob K
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Posted: 28th May 2003 02:37
@thewinch

Both links search for "300Mhz" - but they both proove my point

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the_winch
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Posted: 28th May 2003 02:40
@ rob k
Fixed
I blame my ctrl key that keeps falling off.
Van B
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Posted: 28th May 2003 11:18
Maybe Ninty should stick a 300mhz processor in the GBA - that'd give Sony a scare!.

I think Quake ran really well on all the old PC's I've worked with, certainly runs well on a P200 - but in saying that, a P200 with a Voodoo2 can run Quake3 smooth as hell!


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 28th May 2003 13:55
I agree with that, but you could only have the resolution at 640x480 and not all the detail levels up. I had a twin Voodoo 2 system in my old P233. It ran Quake 3 fine but did stutter if you turned the resolution up to 1024x768.

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Pricey
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Posted: 28th May 2003 19:37
my psion revo has a StrongArm 36mhz processor (such speed! )

I don't know i can't tell!
I push the button and run like hell!
Rob K
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Posted: 28th May 2003 19:44
@pricey

My friend managed to get Linux and Doom working on it though!

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David T
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Posted: 29th May 2003 18:47
Sony will fail. It's happenned before and it'll happen again

You are the th person to view this signature.
Programmers don't die, they just Gosub without return....
Van B
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Posted: 29th May 2003 19:17
Forgive my ignorance, but in what way did Sony fail?

I mean the PS2 is the most popular console in the world, and the PSone did really well for what it was - old technology in a new package.

To my knowledge Sony has never released a hand-held.

I suppose my real question (it's been the same since this topic was posted) is what is stopping Sony from ripping the GBA apart?. Put this way - I know 2 people with GBA's, I know about 20 people with PSX's, and about 6 with PS2's. The 2 people I know with GBA's, have PS2's as well. But the point nobody has commented on - what is the no.1 vehicle console, like in a truck or a car - above all else it's the PSX. Seems like a pretty huge market out there for a Sony portable.


Van-B

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Rob K
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Posted: 29th May 2003 19:46
Looking and that and the multi-format charts for this week,

it seems that crap games on crap consoles make money - sigh!

Enter the Matrix and The Sims are ahead of The Legend of Zelda !?! - That is just criminal.

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Arrow
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Posted: 29th May 2003 19:47
Portatble entertainment isn't as easy as one thinks. Look how many different handheld systems that were out there that are no more. Sony is biting off more than they can chew, esspecailly with the bad year they been having so far.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 00:51
Well, I'll wait and see.

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Ian T
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Posted: 1st Jun 2003 20:55
We should find one of Raven's business buddies and show him this post... 300MHZ...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
The Darthster
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 20:27 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2003 20:29
Let's hope so...

http://gamingasylum.topcities.com/gba.html
Quote: "CPU: 16MHz 32bit RISC-CPU + 8bit CISC-CPU"


http://www.planetgameboy.de/technik.php
Quote: "16 MHz 32 Bit RISC-CPU und 8 Bit CISC-CPU "


http://codewaves.com/gba/tutor_vol1.php
Quote: "* 32-bit RISC CPU ARM7TDMI
* 16.78 MHz processing frequency"


http://www.gamedev.net/reference/articles/article1823.asp
Quote: "The GBA's CPU runs at 16.7 MHz (or 2 ^ 24 Hz) "


http://www.thepernproject.com/index2.htm
Quote: " It is a 16.78mhz system "


http://www.gamedev.net/reference/programming/features/gba1/page2.asp
Quote: "The system runs at 16.78mhz "


And so on, and so forth...

EDIT: oops, missed the second page, heh.. :-s

Once I was but the learner,
now, I am the Master.
Ian T
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2003 20:42
That's fine, 'cause Raven still isn't convinced

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Dazzag
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 01:30
Whatever.

Who wants to take a bet on if the main CPU in the Snes was around 3Mhz or 100Mhz? Good old additional chips (graphics and the rest). And didn't everyone love the 7.somethingMhz Amiga 500?

Cheers

I am 99% probably lying in bed right now... so don't blame me for crappy typing
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 12:15
Ahem there was a 300mhz version of the GBA.

Even if it was not official

PS. the PG32, whats that clock speed? 300mhz? (The concept was 150mhz to 200mhz)

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
actarus
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 15:37
-Ahem there was a 300mhz version of the GBA

Really?

Running away You're lost for words again Now you`ve got all what you wanted Are you really satisfied?
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 15:52
yup a ameture or group of em make one, apparently.

Just somming i found on a google search for GBA spec.

You may be there some time though...

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 15:55
Also dont some PDA's have high spec processors?

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
Cras
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 15:59
are you certain that nintendo are planning another handheld... the last review i read was an interview with the nintendo man where he stated that he would no longer be making games consoles, instead would be focusing on state of the art mobile phones. I remember reading that it would use a satellite to pinpoint ur location so that when u walk past say mcdonalds, you could be sent a message with a discount offer or something. Personally i wouldnt want my location known 24/7, but im sure they realise this and are making up some salesman pitch. Of course this could have all changed, but thats the last i heard.

uk.geocities.com/maniacimagine check it out. ill soon be formally opening it.
Rob K
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Posted: 3rd Jun 2003 18:19
"the last review i read was an interview with the nintendo man where he stated that he would no longer be making games consoles"

I seriously can't imagine Nintendo EVER saying that, I think you need to check your source. I certainly haven't read that anywhere. But I DID read that they have the GBA's successor in the R&D phase.

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Kangaroo2
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 01:40
Martyn there are a few different versions of the GamePark32, mine is an original and runs at 133Mhz, and runs all DOS games that used to run on my 166Mhz machine perfectly well, along with all SNES and MD games I've tried

Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes, They got them hoppy legs & twitchy little noses,
And what's with all the carrots? What do they need such good eyesight for anyway?
Ian T
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 05:09
I've always thought the GBs were pretty pointless, but the GBA really was starting to look somewhat interesting... a successor might really make them worthwhile.

All I can say is 'wow' if you can play Bard's Tale style games on phones now. That's cool.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 13:36
i did read somewhere that there was a 300mhz version of GP, but whether it was a one off or somming i do not knoe.

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.

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