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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / [LOCKED] The nFinity project

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 02:40 Edited at: 30th May 2003 02:42
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(Before I begin you should know that i've just been out on the town and am therefor feeling... colourfull )

When I peruse these boards the thing that strikes me more than anything else is how the 'upstarts' of the BASIC community - those who drive in the face of convention against C++ - are actually the most hell bent upon maintaining the status quo.

Think about that before you read on.

Now several forum dwellers comment that the price is unreasonable. So let's look at pricing, let's take as our example a graphics card as I bought one the other day I know I can pickup a GeForce 4 MX for £45.

First we must remove the VAT or the maths go awry, so £45 minus 17.5% VAT = £37.125.

60% of that is the shops profit, don't argue, that's fact. If a shop isn't working to 60% then it is a discount shop working to 50%... Some products might go at 40% markup if the market is large enough but in this case i'm going to work to the 60% rule because there's no other evidence to suggest I shouldn't - £45 is about average for a GeForce 4 MX.

So the shop sold the card for £37.125 (without the VAT) and at 60% markup therefor purchased the card for £14.85 from a distributor. If they paid more then they need to look very hard at their purchasing deal because i've negotiated in this position in the past and that's what I paid.

Now we know the distributor sold the card for £14.85, and distributors work on roughly the same margins as the retail outlets but although they are buying bulk, they are also selling bulk (albiet smaller quantaties and often mixed product) so their margin is slightly smaller at around 40%. Therefor they purchased the card for £8.91.

Working at a typical factory markup of 50%, that meens your £45 graphics card costs just £4.45 to make.

So you where saying about price?

Pneumatic Dryll
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th May 2003 03:52
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I lay you odds 100:1 that they never find an interested company, let alone actually manufacture any units, let alone make a single sale.

Darkheart is getting a bit carried away in his vehemence, but his points are solid, just like Rob's and mine. Frankly, he's right about it being bullshit.

If you want to talk about something, that's fine. But don't go on about it being a terribly serious thing and trying to convince people to jump on the bandwagon when there's a cliff 3 miles down the road.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 30th May 2003 04:08
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Let's not keep trying to convince these people they can't do this. It would be brilliant for all of us if they could, though it does seem ridiculously impossible. Let them spend a few months working on this thing until they either:
- realise they've wasted their time
- get this thing up and running (aye, right)


Quote: "No sober man dances unless he happens to be mad"

If that is the case, what happens when a madman gets drunk?
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Darkheart
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Posted: 30th May 2003 04:22 Edited at: 30th May 2003 04:23
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PneumaticDryll, take me up on my bet, all you have to pay out is £100 and you get £10,000 back in 12 months. Find me any other investment where you get that kind of return.

Do you have an outfit in the far east prepared to make components for those kind of prices? No? I thought not, if you do LMK and I will visit you, I am in Singapore on the 24th-27th of June. It's no problem to get a connecting flight.

Put up or shut up.

Darkheart

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Ian T
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Posted: 30th May 2003 05:09 Edited at: 30th May 2003 05:38
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*chuckles*

Watch out for that fine line, Darkheart. While moderation here isn't draconian, it's not 100% slack either. They do have every right to keep talking about it they want to... although I wish the post would be unpinned.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 30th May 2003 05:42
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Hitler-type moderated forum
= Users complain & grumbled when they get banned


Easy-going-type moderated forum
= Users launch their "Freedom of Speech + Berserker Barrage" super move.


Humans are wonderful species! lol!

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Puffy
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Posted: 30th May 2003 06:26 Edited at: 30th May 2003 06:28
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Quote: "*chuckles*

Watch out for that fine line, Darkheart. While moderation here isn't draconian, it's not 100% slack either. They do have every right to keep talking about it they want to... although I wish the post would be unpinned"
.

I do want you guys to calm down... keep it at no name calling and minimal bad language + no flameing and everything is dandy... OH YES... and unpinned... =\ You guys should look at this as an opertunity... if your always negative you could very well end up in the gutter...

AMD Athlon XP 2100+ OC to 3Ghz/1.5gigs ram/128mb ti4200/120gigs hd/19" monitor/Sound Blaster Audigy Platinum EX/3072kbs Sat Con... I joined in!
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 30th May 2003 06:51
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yup.

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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bitJericho
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Posted: 30th May 2003 10:16 Edited at: 30th May 2003 12:36
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Mouse
Quote: "Nice idea. Flying pigs is also a nice idea. Bill Gates donating all his money to chariites is also a nice idea. It's all equally impossible"


Funny, wasn't it Bill Gates that managed to get into a project like this and is now the richest man on the planet? Sure he didn't invent a console, but he for all intents and purposes created the most popular OS in the world..started out working in his basement.


David89
Quote: "Is this that DB-BOX project that was advertised a few weeks ago?"


This project was inspired by the DB-BOX but Danmatsuma is not part of this project, as his project is fundementally different from ours.

Mouse
Quote: "I lay you odds 100:1 that they never find an interested company, let alone actually manufacture any units, let alone make a single sale."


[edit]
Our project will be financed by a *very* popular company in which you should be able to guess by now... Also there is nothing to gain by us hoaxing you all. After all we are just asking for people to develop for the box, and by the very nature of this box there will be not much extra work by you to get this into a form usable by this box. Of course there is still some mystery shadowed on this project, as the ball has only been rolling for what..2 weeks...

The 3D Modeler's Group : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/3dModeler/
The Unofficial DB Newsgroup : http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DBMag/
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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 30th May 2003 12:53
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Could somone go out and buy 1000x each component needed, cause i have a feeling the costs will be very low when brought in bulk.

You are all taking about going down PC world to get the stuff, you need to go to the manufacturer to get it, thats how the big boys do it.

And yes it is possible to make somming like this for under £200, you just need to make enough of them.

Also i would like to know how much the costs of making a PS2 and the RRP equates. I have a feeling that minimal profit is made on the consoles, more money is made on the games, it costs £1 max to make a CD/DVD and case and they sell them for 40 or 50 times more than that.

Also other services will be needed, loads of money comes through sponsors, investors, loans etc. It could turn a company bankroupt but then again it could make the company a huge player, just need to make sure you have the bankroupsy papers ready at all times

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Darkheart
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Posted: 30th May 2003 12:55 Edited at: 30th May 2003 13:00
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"Funny, wasn't it Bill Gates that managed to get into a project like this and is now the richest man on the planet? Sure he didn't invent a console, but he for all intents and purposes created the most popular OS in the world..started out working in his basement."

Er no actually, Microsoft got the contract to create the OS for IBM's new X86 based PC (which was predicted to fail by IBM) because Gary Kidall was too busy to do it and wanted to go on holiday.

Sadly Billy boy didn't have an OS or know how to write one, so when talking to Tim Patterson about a small project he was working on called QDOS (Quick and Dirty Operating System) he was immeaditaly interested and bought it for $50,000. Bill's family was already very well off indeed so this was no problem.

He patched over the more obvious holes in the OS so it would work although it did cause some problems (like only being able to use 640k of the 1Mb available). Then he renamed it MSDOS and _liscensed_ it to IBM, the X86 was a surprise hit, you know the rest.

So strictly speaking no he didn't create the most successful OS in the world, Bill Gates is very much a businessman first and a programmer second.

Anyway if any of you are really that sure, let's see your money.

Darkheart

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Martyn Pittuck
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Posted: 30th May 2003 12:57
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One other thing, make one box, get 1 game to play with it.

If you can go into a board room and make one guy smile you have landed a manufacturing deal.

So what, £600 reseach and it could be for nothing. But somone like EA would not just manufacture what you present, they would refine it even more, make it marketable, and make it cheap to make.

Its not the researchers job to make it cheap or even look good, thats for the company who will invest and develop it into something everyone wants

The Outside is a evil place to be, too much light, too much noise and too many distractions....
I went outside once and my FPS rate dropped to 5.
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Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2003 13:35
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LMFAO!!!

Your all nuts, some are nuts for even thinking this thing up, some are nuts for even wasting time arguing about it. The thing is - you'd need a huge initial investment, even getting your controller shell injection moulded will cost a fortune, have you guys any idea how much it costs to get anything manufactured?. Sorry for the poo-poo, but it's not feasible - trust me, I used to be a fabrication project manager.

If you must make a console, get hold of an old PC and an old arcade cabinet and build an emulation station with a lot of games - that might sell a few and make you money, because the parts can all be reconditioned - MAME would run on anything really. That'd at least be a start point, it would be fun, and retro fans would chop their arm off for one. Put this way, you could be up and running with a prototype for about £120. Selling these online for £200 would make some nice cash.


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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empty
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Posted: 30th May 2003 13:59
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Quote: "
60% of that is the shops profit, don't argue, that's fact. If a shop isn't working to 60% then it is a discount shop working to 50%... Some products might go at 40% markup if the market is large enough but in this case i'm going to work to the 60% rule because there's no other evidence to suggest I shouldn't - £45 is about average for a GeForce 4 MX.
"

That's not a fact. My mate runs a PC store and this numbers are simply wrong. You can calculate 20% for hardware.

Quote: "
So the shop sold the card for £37.125 (without the VAT) and at 60% markup therefor purchased the card for £14.85 from a distributor. If they paid more then they need to look very hard at their purchasing deal because i've negotiated in this position in the past and that's what I paid.
"


Erm...
38.298 + 17.5% = 45.00
23.94 + 60% = 38.298

Ogres have layers.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 14:23 Edited at: 30th May 2003 14:27
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Quote: "That's not a fact. My mate runs a PC store and this numbers are simply wrong. You can calculate 20% for hardware."


He is not as good at negotiating prices as me. Any shop running on 20% margins is going to scrape a megre existance and never amount to anything or grow into a hugely profitable business.

Perhaps he is happy to run his little shop - that's fine and it's his choice. Personally i'd spend a little time with the suppliers and get a better deal.

Retail margins are 40-60%. If you aren't achieving that then you are working bulk or working foolishly.

Quote: "38.298 + 17.5% = 45.00
23.94 + 60% = 38.298"


Point taken, I did the maths backwards last night, like I said in my post:
Quote: "(Before I begin you should know that i've just been out on the town and am therefor feeling... colourfull )"

The point however, is valid.

EDIT: Sorry Darkheart, I know £100 bet might well be hugely profiteable for me but there's three factors which prevent me from making such a bet with you.

Firstly, an amount of £100 going into Singapore might be miss-understood by your government as an attempt to purchase the country and I don't wish to be saddled with 3rd world debts.

Secondly I doubt you could pay my winnings.

Lastly and all joking aside, I'm not a betting man. The only bet I ever made was to some jerkoff who was giving it so much mouth about how good he was at driving fast that I said "You choose the race track, you choose the cars, looser pays". He then learned of my racing pedigre and shut up, he never did take up my offer.

Pneumatic Dryll
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empty
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Posted: 30th May 2003 14:44
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Quote: "
He is not as good at negotiating prices as me. Any shop running on 20% margins is going to scrape a megre existance and never amount to anything or grow into a hugely profitable business.

Perhaps he is happy to run his little shop - that's fine and it's his choice. Personally i'd spend a little time with the suppliers and get a better deal.

Retail margins are 40-60%. If you aren't achieving that then you are working bulk or working foolishly.
"


Sure you're better and forgive him he runs the store only since 1995. BTW: Since when are you in this business?

Oh and certainly he's happy to run his little shop.

Ogres have layers.
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Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2003 14:57
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Pneumatic, your starting to sound eerily like Raven. Has he brainwashed you?

You do know that small PC outlets can't expect the same discounts as PC-World? - I would have thought that was obvious.

Strange how these little shops are usually cheaper than big stores though - which is how they stay afloat. In todays haphazard market, I take my hat off to anyone who's held a PC store for 8 years - because it's a rare thing.


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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Darkheart
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:04
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"Firstly, an amount of £100 going into Singapore might be miss-understood by your government as an attempt to purchase the country and I don't wish to be saddled with 3rd world debts."


I live in the UK, I am travelling to Singapore on the dates I gave.

"Secondly I doubt you could pay my winnings"

Hey I'm quite happy to take a mere £20 off you I can easily meet that.

If your not into long shots, IMHO your involved in the wrong project, competeing in the console market with Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft as probably one of the toughest long shots you could take.

Darkheart

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:19
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"60% of that is the shops profit, don't argue, that's fact."

Proove it.

I know the guy who owns a PC parts shop near me and they rarely make anything more than say 15% profit on a component. That is why graphics cards all retail for roughly the same price.

Even when a shop buys a video game which costs 50p to actually produce, they have to pay the publishers of the game £20 for it.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:20
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" £45 is about average for a GeForce 4 MX."

GeForce 4 MXs are crap video cards as well. Cheap, but they don't support even 1.0 shaders properly. GeForce FX 5200s are cheap (about £52) and about the same speed as a GF4 MX, but they are fully DX9 compliant.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:32
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Quote: "BTW: Since when are you in this business?"


Forgive me for clarrifying this to the total detriment of your argument but i've been in the computer industry for 13 years. If I hadn't, then what the heck was I talking about !?

Quote: "Pneumatic, your starting to sound eerily like Raven. Has he brainwashed you?"


Yes he has, I am mini-Raven. And i'm going to pwn you.

Quote: "You do know that small PC outlets can't expect the same discounts as PC-World?"


Absolutely but i've negotiated 40%+ deals on cash accounts and small orders. I'm not saying our computer shop owning friend is an idiot, just if he's running at a 20% margin then he could probably acquire a better deal if he works at it the right way - because I have done much the same thing myself.

It's no suprise that not everyone has the same purchasing deal across the industry, there are good salesmen, and good purchasers, always out to maximise their gains.

Perhaps your friends expertise at selling accounts for the shortfalls of his purchasing deals.

Quote: "If your not into long shots, IMHO your involved in the wrong project"


I have an arrangement in place that meens the success of the console's launch has little bearing on me in the short term. From my own point of view, I write games anyway and the work coming out of Banshee Studios these days is pretty high calibre, why not flog them instead of give them away?

I've had an unlucky run for a while now - lost my home etc. and maybe the console will fail too and there's no future for me developing for it... But i'm working the theory that I deserve a little luck, if not then all I have actually lost is 6 months developing games and getting paid to do it - oh woe is me if that's a bad thing!

If the console fails then it meens next year I have to look elsewhere to sell my games. If it succeeds then Banshee will be established as a software house and on the shelves next to the big boys.

I'm going to write the games anyway, does it really upset you that much that I wont be giving them away for free anymore?

I'm sorry, but Banshee does have monthly costs - the web domain and bandwidth - whilst I did get a very good deal - does cost money. Banshee's output is a trial of devotion, producing games like Asteroids comes at the expense of sleep and sanity.

I currently have an employment status issue to overcome, so if somebody feels my games are good enough to buy and my production rate is good enough to attain a respectable income - then dammit, i'm going pro!

And that's pretty much the situation as I see it. I hope the console succeeds because i'd like for the deal to continue, failing that then perhaps i'll look at shareware or alternative publishers.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:38
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Quote: "I've had an unlucky run for a while now - lost my home "

Yet you're still trying to tell us you're a good businessman?

Quote: "No sober man dances unless he happens to be mad"

If that is the case, what happens when a madman gets drunk?
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:49
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Quote: "Yet you're still trying to tell us you're a good businessman?
"


I don't recall saying that I was a good businessman, and neither have I ever been in business before. I lost my home because I worked for someone else, I put my faith and my career in someone else hands and had my trust abused.

That's not a unique story, and neither is it an assessment of my skills at making games and selling them.

Are you implying that because my faith and dedication towards a project destined for failure should inccur failure in everything else I attempt?

Pneumatic Dryll
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 15:59
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Quote: "GeForce 4 MXs are crap video cards as well. Cheap, but they don't support even 1.0 shaders properly. GeForce FX 5200s are cheap (about £52) and about the same speed as a GF4 MX, but they are fully DX9 compliant."


Thankyou for the advice, i'll consider it next time I look for a budget card. In this case the royal 'we' needed a new graphics card and the shop only had 1 card available. Actually I was hoping to get a Ti and spend a few hundred quid but they just didn't have a card to sell me and I figured any card is better than no card.

Quote: "Proove it.

I know the guy who owns a PC parts shop near me and they rarely make anything more than say 15% profit on a component. That is why graphics cards all retail for roughly the same price.

Even when a shop buys a video game which costs 50p to actually produce, they have to pay the publishers of the game £20 for it."


Thankyou Rob, you might not realise but you're prooving the point I was making in my argument.

We pay £45 to buy a graphics card, but the cost to manufacture is actually extremely cheap - a few pounds.

So if the right company (ie one with the purchasing or manufacturing power to accomplish the task) is backing the console, then £120 is very realistic and not - as some forum dwellers where suggesting - £400 short of the manufacturing cost.

Now lets look again at the name of the console, nFinity, that's a lowercase N and an uppercase F. I wonder if that is the sort of name a certain world leading graphics card producer would use...? I think perhaps a company like that would have the purchasing and manufacturing power to pull it off.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Danmatsuma
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:06
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Your project is fundamentally differrent from mine how?

Oh yeah, you want to charge money for it...

Hmmm, foolish not to even consult me on this, but good luck

Actually the reason I started the db-box post was that I was actually in the process of building one, and thought others might have been interested to do the same.

I didn't receive an email from anyone about this, though I have a transcript of a msn chat I had with raven on the subject:

Raven|Tourniquet says: I did get to mention your db-box idea to*snip*

So go ahead with the project, but don't kid yourselves that it's fundamentally different from my initial idea, because it is in fact excactly the same, though yours is going to cost.

Perhaps I'll wait a month or so, then release the plans to my one, and then see how different they actually are Ie: will anyone buy an "nFinity" when the plans to the machine are freely available? And if I did this would you actually try to sue me? interesting

Like I said, saying this is somehow fundamentally different to my idea is ridiculous, though I'm not angry, just interested to see how you can really believe that

ZX Spectrum 48k Issue 3, Radio shack Tape drive, Rank arena 12" T.V. set.
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Witch Bomber
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:10
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If you really have got the Graphics Card producer you hinted at interested then you might be able to pull it off. However if you are just speculating (as is very likely) then you're just wasting your time.

Quote: "No sober man dances unless he happens to be mad"

If that is the case, what happens when a madman gets drunk?
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Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:13
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Yeah, I can imagine what your going through PD, I mean nobodies here thinking that they'll never make a penny, we all hope to make money from this - you have a much better chance of doing that if you can work full time. I'd love to work with DBPro full time, I just hope Lee, Rich, and Mike have lots of kids so there's still a DBPro when I retire (only 40 years to go - hang in there DBS!).

I don't think you should rely heavily on the console idea, but read on...

I had this idea that I'll share here, because I won't follow through with it, but it might work for you, might be a really good for Banshee.

What you do is take a product, say the new style Gameboy. Then you make an accurate model of it with as much functionality as you possibly can - like buttons should be animated etc. Anyhoo - companies send a product to you, then you model them and create interactive demonstrations using the models. So you might start with a closed GameboySP, click it and it opens, maybe show a movie of a game on the screen, and let the user mess around and explore it. The idea is that a company might pay you to make interactive demos of there stuff - for people to download from their website and play with - giving them a better idea of what the product is all about. Personally, if I was looking into something on the net, and there was an option to download a 3D interactive demo with all the details inside, I'd sure as hell do that!. Maybe you could make a demo of an item in your house as a test, once you've done one demo - most of the work is in replicating the items (ever used a micrometer?). You gotta think how many of these demos would be downloaded, and how many people would see the name Banshee Studios.


Van-B

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empty
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:22
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Quote: "
I've had an unlucky run for a while now - lost my home etc. and maybe the console will fail too and there's no future for me developing for it... But i'm working the theory that I deserve a little luck, if not then all I have actually lost is 6 months developing games and getting paid to do it - oh woe is me if that's a bad thing!

If the console fails then it meens next year I have to look elsewhere to sell my games. If it succeeds then Banshee will be established as a software house and on the shelves next to the big boys.
"


Well call me ignorant or even arrogant but if that is your business plan then I'm surprised that you survived 13 years in the computer business or in whatever business at all.

Ogres have layers.
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:33
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" then £120 is very realistic and not "

MS make a loss on every box they sell, and they charge £120 to retailers AND their box is way below the specs of ours.

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:45
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[About cost to manufacture] "actually extremely cheap - a few pounds."

No, it costs more than that. It isn't just the manufacturing costs which have to be considered, the development costs, staff etc. as well. NVidia have to make a profit on the chips they sell, they are not going to give the cards to you for manufacturing cost.

I'm telling you once, and I'll tell you again - this is all just speculation - we have no realistic idea on the industry rates for these things.

Plus, even if you did manage to make the console with parts costing £120, you have at least £20 worth of labour per machine, plus cost of shipping (and a box weighing 1-2KGs a piece).

This is the most ridiculous business model I have ever heard of. The design I proposed, or the design initially proposed is way faster in terms of processor and has a far better spec than anything else out there. With the ability to play custom games + ANY PC game, you could easily get £200 for it. It would have a huge library if it ran Windows.

As well as the cost of production (you would need to set up a building with all the associated costs + initial capital as well), you have the costs and times associated with software development.

You would have to:

a) Get a custom BIOS, you can't have a console with a standard PC bootscreen

b) Re-do the Windows XP frontend logo and get the startup-speed sorted. Normal PCs take 30 seconds to boot. Console end-users won't accept that.

c) Get rid of ALL Windows XP references / Windows 2000 references.

d) Program the following items:

1) Net account signup >> NO way AOL - They cost a bomb. The user should just be able to enter standard ISP details

2) Customised browser to fit with the look of the console

3) Boot app for launching / installing all Windows programs

4) Customised Windows XP theme

5) Net config utility

At the end of the day, the present plan cannot work. It has not been thought through properly and doesn't stand a chance of even becomming a downloadable set of plans until this is resolved.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Van B
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Posted: 30th May 2003 16:53
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"MS make a loss on every box they sell, and they charge £120 to retailers AND their box is way below the specs of ours."

So GAME make £9.99 for every X-Box they sell?


Van-B

Hate me clown because I'm not from your town y'all. Hate me clown.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:03
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Quote: "Well call me ignorant or even arrogant but if that is your business plan then I'm surprised that you survived 13 years in the computer business or in whatever business at all."


I don't know whether to pigeon hole you as envious or ignorant.

If you want to see my business plan you'll have to delve a little deaper than a forum posting. Infact you'll have to try very hard indeed to see it because i'm not asking anyone for money or investment, and therefor havn't put together a presentation and have no intention of prooving my plans to you.

You can see our latest game for yourself at http://www.bansheestudios.com. If you think it's crap then flame me for making a crap game, or if you think it's good and as several people on different forums have said it's the best game ever written in DBPro - then maybe you will cut me some slack and realise i'm not a 14 year old kid making a Final Fantasy MMORG.

Infact i've been around the computer industry a long time, i've worked in research and development, manufacturing, technical sales, solution programming, post sales technical and engineering.

Just maybe it is a mistake for me to write games in DBPro, and maybe nobody will want to buy them... In that case I havn't lost anything because i've been writting computer games for over 20 years and I love doing it.

If you guys don't think i'm good enough to go professional, then you are entitled to that view. You don't have to buy the games.

Personally I have seen lots of shareware written in DB and not one of them has been up to the standards of our Asteroids game in my opinion. Why should they be worthy and not me? I really need a lucky break right now, so why shouldn't I sieze this opportunity and try to make something of myself.

Quote: " had this idea that I'll share here, because I won't follow through with it, but it might work for you, might be a really good for Banshee."


Thankyou for the input Van-B, your a good programmer and you have some excellent perspectives, but this idea doesn't fit the Banshee mould.

I've never worked at being a professional programmer before because I hate writting databases, I write games. The nFinity is an opportunity to be rewarded for that, and it's the path the team has collectively chosen to follow.

Quote: "However if you are just speculating (as is very likely) then you're just wasting your time."


No comment.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:09
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That's me, i'm not a kid.

Pneumatic Dryll
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W0LF
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:10
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Yeah...
You have nVidia's backing??? Sure, and the GBA has a 300mhz processor :-s

HOOOWWWWLLLLL!!!!!!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:22 Edited at: 30th May 2003 17:22
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You have a coin, on one side:

President Mugabe posted an advert in a national daily about emails promising to deposit large amounts of cash in your bank account to get it out of the [Zimbabwe] country.

The scam, according to the advert, results in you getting kidnapped. The summary was that if something is too good to be true then it probably is.

On the other side:

When he was younger my father was offered an opportunity to go into business making headlamps for cars, the only company doing so at the time was Lucus so there wasn't much competition and the profit margins where huge.

My father declined it because he didn't want to take Lucus on.

A year later the fledgling company signed a contract never to sell in the UK again for a £1,000,000 pay off. This was the 60's. They used the money to build up their European empire and are now larger than Lucus' automotive division.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:31
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"That's me, i'm not a kid."

The picture seems to think otherwise.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:34
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@PD

I think you are a talented enough coder to go pro - I just don't think you have the resources required.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_102.zip
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:45
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Quote: ""That's me, i'm not a kid."
The picture seems to think otherwise."

"Like all mature men approaching their 30's, Banshee's Andy Igoe is infact a small child with a leg hair problem."

Pneumatic Dryll
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empty
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Posted: 30th May 2003 17:48
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Quote: "
Personally I have seen lots of shareware written in DB and not one of them has been up to the standards of our Asteroids game in my opinion. Why should they be worthy and not me? I really need a lucky break right now, so why shouldn't I sieze this opportunity and try to make something of myself.
"

There's a huge difference between selling shareware games and being "established [...] on the shelves next to the big boys."

I don't always agree with Rob K. (Euro, metric system ) but his last sentence hits the nail on the head.

Ogres have layers.
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 18:37
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@PD

I played Asteroids for a while just now. It is good for a DBP game, but be honest, you could never sell it for more than £10.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 19:40
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I wouldn't ask £10 for the type of game Asteroids is, it's the sort of thing that would work as part of a classic games collection - the point I was making is one of quality.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th May 2003 19:47 Edited at: 30th May 2003 20:50
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(Message clipped by author to avoid flamewar) ...have it your way Dryll .

I hope the moderaters will unpin this ridiculous thing...

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:07
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Quote: "Because you've coded a fun asteroids clone, you think you can get nVidia and Microsoft's BACKING with a CONSOLE?"


You f*****g tw*t. Where above does it say i'm making this console?

I have come to an agreement with Robert Lettan to develop games for it in exchange for cash, paid as I complete each game - we've got a pricing structure laid down and he knows what titles I am making so there's no overlap with other teams / developers.

The problem you have with this is what exactly?

My dellusions of grandeur extend to getting paid for what I do already, make games. If i'm delluded at all, it would be because the money never arrives, but as i'd make the games anyway - it doesn't really matter.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:11
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Incidentally, i'd just like to point out that I have actually developed and released two proprietry computer platforms in the past, both where corporate workstation platforms and are used in computer television.

If I did want to release a console and I could get backing for it, then yes I believe I would have the skills to make it happen. However as i'm not so crazy as to make a console myself, we'll never find out.

Some people on this forum are probably more experienced in the realm of computers and quite involved in the industry than you actually realise.

Pneumatic Dryll
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hexGEAR
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:21
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hey mouse your kinda stepping outta line here lets not turn this into a flamewar shall we by the way, even if a console does come out, i'd make games for it!

everyday of life is a new chapter that has already been fortold but is up to the soul to capture.
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Ian T
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:49
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True, I was a bit annoyed... .

The main thing that irks me is that this ridiculous post is pinned.

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 20:50
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"the point I was making is one of quality."

Updating a 2D asteroids game to a newer 2D asteroids game doesn't proove the point very well.

You could not use that game to sell yourself (which you would have to do).

Asteroids (the DBP one you made) is far too simplistic for anyone to judge your talent or skills. Produce a 3D game, original, with say just one or two levels, and then you could use it.

Seriously though, be honest, asteroids is not good enough in terms of quality or innovation to qualify as a console game or part of a collection of console games. It is good for a DBP project - but in the real world - it moves to a whole new level.

"I have come to an agreement with Robert Lettan to develop games for it in exchange for cash, paid as I complete each game "

And you trust Raven? - No wonder you got screwed rotten in the business world.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 30th May 2003 21:07
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Quote: "Asteroids (the DBP one you made) is far too simplistic for anyone to judge your talent or skills. Produce a 3D game, original, with say just one or two levels, and then you could use it."


You don't like 2D then I take it 3D is all well and true, but there is still a place for 2D games. I'm not saying I only work in 2D, I just believe that some formats or genre's of games still work well in 2D therefor it shouldn't be written off - take Sudden Strike as a recent example.

Quote: "You could not use that game to sell yourself (which you would have to do)."


If I was having to sell myself, i'd point to my curriculum vitae or my long list of releases (you can see my profile at the Banshee web page), and not just 1 recent game. However I don't need to do that, I have one prospective publisher in Robert, and I still have the right to show the first product to other publishers if I preffer. I don't need to rely on my past pedigre at all.

Quote: "Seriously though, be honest, asteroids is not good enough in terms of quality or innovation to qualify as a console game or part of a collection of console games. It is good for a DBP project - but in the real world - it moves to a whole new level."


Well it was only ever meant to be a retro remake and not intended as a flagship product, but to be fair, every console needs the classics and not too far removed from the original - perhaps there is a place for games like Asteroids, if developed only a little bit more than it currently is.

Quote: "And you trust Raven? - No wonder you got screwed rotten in the business world."


I've never been screwed in the business world, this is a missconception - i've never been in business for myself.

As for trusting Robert I intend to test the water and see how cold it is but I think your comments are not so much bordering on the slanderous as going through the border checkpoint at speed in a juggernaught.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 30th May 2003 21:41
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Quote: "No wonder you got screwed rotten in the business world."


Sorry for quoting this Rob, but i think this is slightly uncalled for.

I know that freedom of speech & opinions is allowed here, but putting down ppl because u dun like another ppl is not quite a nice thing to do.

I ain't siding with anyone, personally I enjoy reading this as a healthy development topic & professionally debated subject. Even to some ppl it may sound ridiculous or impossible, if u dun like it, say everything out; just no bad remarks to the person's intuitions or his/her personal life.

My bad on my post here. Do qoute my nice words.

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Rob K
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Posted: 30th May 2003 22:07
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Sorry, that was out of order, apologies.

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