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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / What does a good game need?

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Programmer Dave
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Posted: 31st May 2003 03:37
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Please answer the following question: What does a good game need?
If you know of a 3d Modeller thats easy to use please contact me! Visit my game making site at http://www.dc-games.tk
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MrTAToad
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Posted: 31st May 2003 03:42
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Action (and plenty of it), suspense, thrills, spills.

And me of course.

Good news everyone! I really am THAT good...
http://www.nickk.nildram.co.uk/ for great plug-ins - oh my, yes!
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Chenak
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Posted: 31st May 2003 03:52
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Id say it has to be very long (but not boring) and take at least 48 hrs to complete cause too many games out now are really short. Took me about 5 hrs to complete Unreal2 and 9hrs to complete enter the matrix (and that cost me £40!!!) Also you need decent graphics and a decent story in the game depending on what game you wanna make.

Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny...
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 31st May 2003 04:31
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Inferno thats kinda the burdon you have to carry for being british mate (^_^) scientifically proven better gamers, hehee
remember reading about it in PCG a few years back... the needs and abilities of the gamers were measured from a tonne of gamers, kinda proved what developers had known for a few years already that the Brits and Japanese found games alot easier than thier European and American counterparts

heres a challenge your invited to beat though, Quake3 on Nightmare Mode ... to complete it in under 2:43minutes

that aside the more important aspect of a computer game is the gameplay, if it plays bad then people will hate it. Everything else is a frill that you add afterwards to enhance thier experience.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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aprilfan
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Posted: 31st May 2003 04:36
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Lots o' cool effects oh yeah!

I like the little things like Tekken 4 water(not tag damn it!) Avi sky boxes(like tag!) just neat little graphic stuffs that care cool to look at and think "yoah I want to do something like that!"
Oh yeah and inteligent enemies that do cool combos and make you refine your strategy...
A good story something that makes you think and wonder about whats happening next.
If it's an RPG it can't have wander-time: definition: time you spend doing nothing and pulling your hair out in impatience because you don't know where to go!
Yeah and lots of replay value something you never get tired of.
Characters that have emotion and are really just... ...cool...

so there, if you put all of that in a game with good graphics and sell it for 40$ I'll buy it and just about anything you make there after. Now get to work!

The Great Schism.- The Earths reaction to Heavons invasion.
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Attreid
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Posted: 31st May 2003 11:17
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I think that a good game doesn't need good graphics. It isn't the most important because even with the best graphics a game can be very boring. I don't say that a game with cylinders for trees and boxes for houses can be a good game !
The most important in a game is :
1. the scenario must be good
2. the game must be long
if you don't have a team, don't work on the graphics before you have finished your code, or you won't spend enough time with the code

"He will come...the voice from the outer world,
bringing the holy war, the Jihad, which will cleanse the Universe and bring us out of darkness."
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Eric T
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Posted: 31st May 2003 11:21
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1. Storyline, no story line no players

2. Somthing to WOW players, maybe graphics, gameplay , or even the storyline.

--Eric

I always win don't you know that?
Programming RPG games in Dark Basic
Since 1999.
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Shady Simpson
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Posted: 31st May 2003 11:40
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I'd say that you'd need quite good graphics, a few twists, and alot of action.

A bit like Metal Gear Solid 2 WITHOUT the shitty ending.

you can tell I'm mad at that game, took me a whole 4 days to complete and then the guy turns round and says ... Better not spoil the * great surprise * for other gamers. but in all I thought it was a great game until the end.

(Lousy Ocelot, Lousy Snake, lousy colonel, lousy guy with dodgy arm, lousy Rose, lousy Olga.... etc.)

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st May 2003 12:19
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There seems to be a trend in the industry now of making shorter games, but more of them,

I remember the days when I could buy a game and get 30 hours + out of it, now I am lucky to see 15.

I hope that it does not happen with Half-Life 2, it is supposed to feature 12 chapters, 3 to 4 hours long each.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st May 2003 15:45
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GAMEPLAY


The player must be constantly engaged, and suprised. The skills required of the player must change constantly to keep the gameplay evolving and challenging.

If your doing an arcade game, it may be important at the start to shoot all the baddies, but then get the player to dodge stuff - then get the play to run in amongst the baddies and collect a power up - then get the player to use the scenery and so on.

In a puzzle game, you can't just throw the same puzzle at the player continuously but with more coloured balls. You need to change the layout entirely between levels.

In an adventure game, and so many DB RPG projects fail here, you can't just throw a load of background story at the player and expect them to be a) interested in the slightest and b) thoroughly engrossed in plot and intrigue.

If there is a really vital plot point - do it as an FMV to get the users attention, otherwise shut up! To keep an RPG interesting you need to throw different monsters at the player, that need killing in different ways. Don't just add 10 hit points to the boss mob, change his AI or lay the dungeon out in such a way that the player has to think about how to kill him.

Although i've postponed the project in my NFP game I designed an encounter where the player had appalling melee skills and a few minor attack spells - yet she had to take on a mighty Troll, the way to kill him is to use the most innane of her spells to entice him over a cliff.

In a race game, circuit design is 50% of the game, a bend with the turning after a crest or a 'thinking mans' corner like Russel Bend at Snetterton. The other half of the game is the AI - I don't know about you but i'm sick and tired of commercial race games being in the vein of 'overtake a load of cars, watch an accident with loads of debri and spin out when the phone rings so overtake a load of cars again'. I want to come out of the pits on a full fuel load and get the lighter, faster Ferrari overtake my clapped out Jordan. I want to battle for position with another car for 10 laps or more because he is slightly faster and all over my rear wing.

The only exception to 'gameplay is god' is if your doing a beat em up, then really all you need is lots of amusing weapons and a good particle effect for blood.

Pneumatic Dryll
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The Darthster
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Posted: 31st May 2003 16:00
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Quote: "In a puzzle game, you can't just throw the same puzzle at the player continuously but with more coloured balls."


Tetris?

I reckon a game just needs to be addictive. Whether you get so much satisfaction out of beating small elements of an action game that you keep playing, or you are so engrossed in an RPG's plot that you have to see what comes next, it's about addictivity. Is that a word? It is now!

Once I was but the learner,
now, I am the Master.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 31st May 2003 16:12
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How many people read through every book script in Diablo and/or Dungeon Siege?

I rest my case, smuggly victorious.

Gameplay is about achieving addiction, you just can't add chemicals to make it happen. A game becomes addictive when the body releases adrenaline playing it, and yes sometimes the simplest things work like Tetris - more often than not, it's a changeing and dynamic environment that keeps things interesting and challenging.

Oh one last thing, never ever under-estimate the power of music.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Rob K
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Posted: 31st May 2003 16:57
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Very good points - the number of RPGs that have a background story that could fill several novels. Sigh.

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MikeS
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Posted: 31st May 2003 20:25
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If you want a long game play Morrowind.(100+hours)

The only thing was after about 10 hours into the game I was so overwealmed with how much there was to do, and so many people to talk to I gave up, but then I experimented with the construction kit, and that got me back in the game.

The game itself doesn't have to be very long, but I advise putting in some kind of map editor, so you can get players to come back for more, and make there own fun levels to play.

(Current)-Game entering concept art stages-
(progress)-Should have demo in 6 months latest-
(misc.)-Started modeling buildings and other objects-
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Critters
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a great game always has to make you think, it has got to be long enough for you not to be able to rush through. I am not a strong believer in good graphics but i beleive it helps, the gameplay must bring you to ground level with the charictor if you know what i mean

The best game i have ever played would have to be, warcraft 3

i have played it none stop since i got it when it came out, i think what makes it so addictive is the fact every match changes, but anyway, thats just me



Martin Wyatt

http://www.freewebs.com/jaxteam/
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Terabyte
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 16:18
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I'd say a great game has at least 1000 textures to it. Never the same texture more than twice in the same area.
Decent Polygon models and well animated models.

You have to have good fire effects. There is nothing worse than a game with decent models animations textures plot ad spening all of that time if your gonna rush the fire effects.

For the ultimate in crap fire effects check out half lifes team fortress clasic [img] [/img]I Gaurantee that ist crap

Info Q.&statments corect@da time of going to pres. I acept 0 responsibility for typos gramaticaly incorect txt swering or pety complant tht u hve so just piss off unles u r anserin da Q.
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indi
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 16:20
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entertaining simluation of game interaction always wins over everything else

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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Flashing Blade
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 16:27
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1 frog
a busy road
a river of logs/turtles/crocs
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indi
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 18:50
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den, den, den, den,, den, d,d,d, da, duh,
den, den, den, den,, den, d,d,d, da, duh,

hehe

i had a better link for the intro song but this will do


http://www.sys2064.com/files/emudx/froggerm.zip

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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UberTuba
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Posted: 4th Jun 2003 23:14
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the game above all else,must be clean, no slowdawn or anything else.
slowdown ruinined skycars 4 me.

Life is a terminal disease.
You never survive it.
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kevinthekangaroo
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 00:54
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A game must be fun, hours of gameplay and graphics arn't everything.

Artificial Intelligence is the key, there's nothing worse than hundreds of creatures blindly running towards you and fighting to
the death even though they're getting seriously hurt.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 01:36
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Quote: "Artificial Intelligence is the key, there's nothing worse than hundreds of creatures blindly running towards you and fighting to
the death even though they're getting seriously hurt."


Artificial Intelligence in commercial games is still, over 20 years on from the launch of the Spectrum, bloody dire!

The best computer game AI's on the market today are unchallenging, dim-witted and profoundly un-engaging.

The reason? A good AI uses system overhead that the graphics could use, and graphics look good in glossy magazines.

I played that new Tom Clancy thingamyjig the other day, and the strait-backed security guards in some jail wandered around like an 80's platform game. It was sad, very sad. The game looked great though.

I agree in that I believe a good AI is an important gameplay aspect. I disagree with anyone who says that any commercial game out there now has a good AI.

AI is not just about path finding. In strategy games the AI is the collaboration of all resources to a given 'side', in role-playing games it's the 'party' or 'group' of monsters working together and using the scenery against you. In driving games it's the ability of the AI cars to overtake and run a dynamic race strategy that plans ahead.

A game's AI should follow the same thought processess of the player and consider the same gameplay aspects to achieve the goal. If the AI does not, then it is not intelligent, just artificial.

Pneumatic Dryll
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Ian T
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 02:44
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Not in all games. Just wait 'til HL2, buddy

--Mouse

Famous Fighting Furball
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Andy Igoe
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Quote: "Not in all games. Just wait 'til HL2, buddy "


I have seen nothing from Valve to suggest they have even the slightest competence in writting an AI to the same standard as the rest of the industry, let alone break from the commercial-mould and produce one that finaly delivers what it should.

Pneumatic Dryll
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DevoureD
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As far as AI, I'm going to have to say I was pretty impressed with Hitman 2. Not the best but when the cops are looking for a suspicious bald guy and you are a suspicius bald guy... they shot and ask questions later. just my 2 cents on the ai, or lack of, in todays games.

As far as What makes a game fun.. Game play. if your graphics departmen shines but you can't pull off a smooth paddle in pong... it's gonna suck.

Oh yeah, and in order for any game to be a great title, email me the code and media for 'play testing'

Thats my girlfriend over to the left, don't tell my wife.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 13:23
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Half-Life had pretty good Ai, but still as Pneu says - hardly anything that would challenge you.
Black&White is a true sight of what Ai is, but that is a SINGLE Character and the overhead is enourmous ... we're talking it takes 15% of the entire games calculation, the Karma Physics takes another 25% once you're left to share the rest you can see ALOT has gone into the graphics to make them look good even so low polygon.

Half-Life2 add almost NOTHING to the current Ai they have, sure it is a little more advanced - but i doubt they rewrote what they had in only 6months along with the entire graphics engine, you watch the 30min vid and you can see it works alot like HL's do. The game'll be nothing but eye candy this time around.

you want to know why games are getting shorter and shorter?
because artists worked thier ass's off before, now they're working overtime to get the level of graphics up - and to be honest we're not bloody miricle workers, no matter what programmers believe it takes time to make something of worth ... we can't simple plod out a model and then go "oh it has bugs" and fixx them a little, everything has to work at each stage else it can screw everything else up big time.

best thing to work towards is gameplay, once you have a good playing game you can then add some nice content and spuce up its graphics.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Beta1
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I dont think there are any rules as to what makes a great game.

Its certainly not the number of textures, or the number of polygons. That might make a great looking game but it can still suck.

Civ2 was arguably one of the best games ever but looks hideous.

Equally we've all played enough generic FPS 2 type games that look fantastic but have no real spark to them.

You just have to write the game that you most want to play and hope theres other people out there who feel the same.

At least that way you'll be having fun.

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Cpt Caveman
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 14:21
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Fun, addictiveness, simple gameplay, non repetitve, crashing and bashing of vehicles/people,shooting, freedom of movement(go anywhere, do anything),realistic physics, an editor and multiplayer for longevity and maybe a little nudity and offensive language now thats my perfect game, but any combination of 4 or more of my above attributes would make a good game.
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Nilrem
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 19:06 Edited at: 5th Jun 2003 19:08
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All depends on what genre the end-user likes in my opinion.

Quote: "Civ2 was arguably one of the best games ever but looks hideous."


I agree with that statement wholly, but what made it great, well it was everything about it, but what appealed to me and Beta1, might not appeal to you.. hmm it's hard to explain properly.

Basically, if one thing is really great then the other things don't matter as much (To a lot of people anyway).

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
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Soyuz
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Ok this isn't meant to be a Civ debate but this is why I felt Civ series were great and so engrossing:

1 - Every level could have a totally different outcome each time you played it
2 - Levels weren't in the form of campaigns where you play one level over and over until you win, then prgress to next level - A Civ level was an entire game.
3 - It wasn't a short term game. You couldn't just sit down for a few minutes of mindless fun - it required players to think long and short term. Plan strategies and watch as they came to fruition or collapsed in disaster!
4 - The AI wasn't a walk over. If you play the game on a hard level and don't cheat it is a pretty tough game.

Ultimatly I felt the game put the player through a range of emotions. You concentrate on your tactics building up an invasion force. You are confident you will win. The battle begins, things don't go according to plan .. you start to worry that this could drag on longer than anticipated....Despair! Your attack is faltering - a counter attack is pushing you back -damn will those reinforcements get here on time? YES!! My last two units held off five enemy attackers just in time for my reinforcments to arrive - the enemy is weakened, I could win this battle after all. YEEHAAAA LONDON IS MINE!! Die like the pig you are Queen Elizabeth!

You get the idea. The player is engrossed.
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 21:10
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I agree that Civ was a great game, but the AI was strategically inept, infact even the path finding was pretty poor which I found a great let down. The only thing that made it difficult was the AI players 'cheating'.

I can't deny that it was a great game though, infact it's one of my all-time favorites

Pneumatic Dryll
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 5th Jun 2003 22:35 Edited at: 5th Jun 2003 22:37
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My vote on AI = Metal Gear Solid (obviously! lol!)

But even that game lacks on one AI aspect (which lacks in almost, *not all* every action games): SELF-PRIORITY.

U know, the thing about:

"Owwwww I'm being shot! Instead of to continue attacking like my mindless comrades infront there, I think I'll head back to the barracks and get more guards. Hmm... on seconds thought, i think its not really necessary, since once one of us are being shot & another one noticed it, the whole place are on alert *automatically*. Anyway, might as well I get me some of those Medipacks lying around behind the secret entrance meant for the heroes, as if I can't use them. Once done with that, I think I'll go and guard another post on another level, since no one really pays me to do this, and no one really minds me as long as they see me as a *patrolling guard*. hmmm.. perhaps i would consider to be a sidekick to that hero, not that the he cares, better dying as a hero than an unpaid watchdog."

Well, that so of thing.. or do they have one like that? (not close like that, i mean exactly like that). Or my take is that either its already in a developing game currently, .... or it might make the game go too bad! lol!

[does anyone notice i wrote "i think"? It would make the AI more *human* than a mere AI! ]

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Soyuz
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LOL that could be really funny - AI that say "Bugger this being shot at by the hero lark - I'm off to the pub for a beer!" Suddenly our hero finds he has no one to shoot - "Ahh bugger this, I think I'll join all the guards for a beer too!"

And we all lived happily ever after.
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Andy Igoe
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I wrote a very good tactical AI that is/was way beyond that which i've seen in commercial games. This was some years ago in my Gettin' Shot Up 2 game, however I didn't get as far as doing a good strategic AI in the game, so there is not as much inter soldier co-operation as I would like and the opposite side does not control or inter-relate his forces well. It is a very dated game now, but some aspects of that AI show up commercial games even now, a few years on.

I too yearn for AI's that consider the same aspects of the situation as the player does, when I write my AI's I make them play the game like I do whereas commercial games seem to make their AI's to operate according to already available game data.

Personally I start by constructing a multi-relational and multi-dimensional internal data structure for my AI's, but commercial games seem scared of handling data and prefer to make decisions based only upon what is current in this pass of the main loop.

I'm not saying that i'm better than all the commercial programmers out there, i'm certainly not. I'm saying that commercialism undervalues the gameplay reward of a good AI.

Corporate bigwigs descovered they could have 'a good AI' by making it difficult to beat, rather than intelligent. Difficulty is easy to program, intelligence isn't.

I am working on a game at the moment that will hopefully bring a fresh look upon an established genre, and shake up the status quo somewhat. I vow here that I will pay particular attention to the AI! However i'm not looking to release the game until christmas - so you'll have to wait

Pneumatic Dryll
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 08:48 Edited at: 6th Jun 2003 09:09
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Quote: "I vow here that I will pay particular attention to the AI! However i'm not looking to release the game until christmas - so you'll have to wait "


Amen.

Yay! Christmas present!



Quote: "I'm saying that commercialism undervalues the gameplay reward of a good AI."


This is a good quote, PDryII.

--> Multiplayer rules so far.

--> One classic AI that *almost* matches my description was in Pacman.

[ark! he ate the bloody Power Pill! All Ghost for himself! Attack him back when his power wears off! lol!]


--> One current good AI example: anybody played Halo here?
(everybody have to agree with me here!)

[There's too many of them!]
[Ark! Grenades!]
[Haha! I got one!]

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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LoKiDeCaT
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 11:12
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My vote on AI = Black and White. Never has there been a more intricate, dynamic, intelligent, adaptive intelligence on that level. Several million lines of code for AI alone.

But as for the topic:

Have something to look forward to. Period. That's the answer to a fun game.

A new sword.
A new quest.
A new car.

Keep it so you advance and there's always something new RIGHT around the corner.

It's completely Pavlovian.

( For those who don't know Pavlov's experiment. It's where he rang a bell when he fed his dogs. After a while they'd hear the bell, and associate it with food and start salivating. Then he took away the food, and just rang the bell and they would salivate. It's called conditioning.)

If you have things spaced too far apart, the "bell" effect wears off. Keep something RIGHT on the brink of occuring, the feeling of imminent change. Then people will want to play if for no other reason than to see what's happening.

It's like shutting off a movie 30 minutes before the end. You'd spend the rest of the night wondering how it ended. THAT is the feeling you want your player to have. That way, when they finally DO quit out, they will want to come BACK to keep going.

sorry so long

Loki D'Cat - Modeller, Composer, Animator
Nerdsoft Creations
Machine Specs: Athlon XP1800+, ATi Radeon 8500 64mb, 1GB RAM, Windows 2000 AdvSvr
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Nilrem
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Agreed (Not the too long part the rest of it LoKiDeCaT).

I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.
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Eponick
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 18:04
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Should be alot of fun(For replay-ability) and be sorta fast paced, but take a long time to complete(at least 2-3 days game time total). Good story is a must for most Genres, also being able to choose diffrent paths(Like in RPGs). That will also add to the replay-ability.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 6th Jun 2003 20:56
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you know B&W Creature Island had far-far improved Ai over the original you creature really came into his own when he starts to communicate with the other creatures to achieve things.

Personally hope that B&W2 is going to improve on this further
Ai in games though has to be a balance, because the graphical side of things takes up ALOT of power from the computers... so the ability to have Ai with bloody good abilities within a good looking game would be rare to say the least, and making Ai isn't actually a simple task unless your making a Bot or NPC which are what most games use because they're fast, simple and you can setup a standard Ai engine and then plugin as many NPCs and Bots to that as you like.

but even then the most enjoyable and long lasting games are those with the simplest of ideas - i mean take Pokémon for example, the Ai is probably the worst in the world ... but it is a truely addictive game, because it takes a long time for the player to see everything within the game, you can play it several times and each time it is a different experience because of the randomness - and the world is small but setup in a way that makes it seem large
or even games like PuzzleBobble or Tetris, very little in the way of difference - just progressive difficulty.

as long as you can make the game work as a whole, you can make it good

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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ZomBfied
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 00:57
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It has to be fun.

Storyline is not that important --it should come from the game, not the other way around.

What I mean is don't think of a storyline and then make a game to fit it, but rather make a game first, then let the storyline around it. You'll come up with a much more original and fun end product that way. In other words if you make a good game, the story will write itself, and don't force feed it to the players, let them create their own story.

As an indie game maker try not to make a game that's already in a given genre. Like don't make an FPS or a racing game or a clone of anything. You should try to find an angle, something that hasn't been done to death already.

Don't make long cut scenes you can't cut past.

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ZomBfied
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 01:00
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"there's nothing worse than hundreds of creatures blindly running towards you and fighting to
the death even though they're getting seriously hurt"

I donno, there's a lot to be said for having hundreds of creatures blindly running towards you and fighting to the death... I've had a lot of fun over the years in just those kinds of situations. [b])

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 04:58
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Quote: ""there's nothing worse than hundreds of creatures blindly running towards you and fighting to
the death even though they're getting seriously hurt"
"

There are times when I quite enjoy Diablo/Dungeon Siege. Mostly when i'm feeling braindead.

These sorts of games have their place, but they're hardly the sort of thing that you can get yourself stuck into over a number of evenings solid gaming.

Pneumatic Dryll
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ZomBfied
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 12:36
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I was thinking of Smash TV, actually. "I'll Buy That for a dollar!"

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 13:31
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lmao... oh no its the singing christmas tree of death

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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indi
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 15:02
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dryll i think your forgetting the korean obsession with d2xp

While im not korean I do like that game sometimes a lot more than say a night of shooting someone in a fps.

I confess to racking up at least 16 hrs straight in one huge session when i first started and for a while there i was hooked for about 2 years finding wicked stuff for trading or pure pk challenges.

imagine everquest junkies and how much time they spend in a game.

my gf and I played for an hour today which is rare for me but she will happilly rack up a few hours a day if i dont tease her about doing art work.

Theres a huge fan base inside warcraft 3 modded maps as well as starcraft broodwars modded maps which have taken countless hours of my time

I would imagine each game has a concentric ring of users from diehard to noob and casual player.

I think you will find that we can escape into our minds when we develop but if you have a crummy job thats brain dead u want to escape possible more than you or I would. gf left you and you want to simply escape,etc....

If u take a look in a net cafe where kids who may not have net access of 5 gig a second at home and cant run quake3 because there 486 wont cut it then it will show you some pure gamer motives and actions.

Its even more prounounced in arcade parlours because a lot more input is being processed, the machine, the pretty lights, the extra noisesand background chatter and music, the cute girl, that guy who you hate, your buddys about to die.. etc...

Just an obsvervation inside the minds of all gamers who dont develop but just play and not care if that sprite took 46 hours to hand craft with a magnet distorting pixels on your monitor

game = psychological crutch or a form of entertainment ?

http://www.lunarpixel.com

http://www.lunarpixel.com/dt/
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 15:53
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lol... well we now have a nice philosophical aspect on all of this now

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 7th Jun 2003 16:57
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Quote: "imagine everquest junkies and how much time they spend in a game."


I am one! I once played Everquest 5 days in a row without sleep because I was determined to get that Runed Mithril Bracer...

I played Everquest so much that for a while I was one of the important support characters (I play a cleric) in one of my servers top guilds.

Everquest doesn't have pretty graphics and doesn't really have gameplay (the most strategic class is cleric, which is why I choose to play one - but even then the game play is not challenging).

So how does a game with awful graphics, poor sound and music, no gameplay and bugger all reward version effort you put in ever succeed as one of the most successful games of all time with an annual turn-over that would delight Bill Gates to receive, what's more how does a game like this survive year after year after year when other games stop selling 3 months after release?

Social Interaction.

Everquest is a social game, you wont achieve anything note-worthy without a group of players, in most cases small groups of up to 6 people, in some cases massive raids of 40 or 60 or more people just to kill 1 big bad monster that's one part of one very long quest to get 1 of those people a new ring item.... Everquest is like going down the pub and playing pool - the game isn't the reason you are there at all.

I only stopped playing heavily when I woke up one day and realised I was socialising with a load of Germans, what's more - they weren't even particularly efficient - so I found a bunch of Yanks and after teaching them how to raid they got all very 'we are so special' yet they'd only worked out basic big raid principles 3 weeks earlier - damn Yanks - but finally I found some Brits to saddle up with.

The only problem with other British players is there's so few of us we can't do anything worth-while. So I don't play much anymore.

Pneumatic Dryll
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ConsoleBoy164
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Posted: 8th Jun 2003 01:15
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If we are gonna moan about AI i might as wll put my 2 cents in!!
Take Phamtasy Star I and II On XBox GC and Dreamcast. 80% of the creatures all had the smae AI. You get within X distance of Booma/Dimenian/Evil Shark. Booma/Dimenian/Evil Shark Face you. Slowly Walk (or sprint in Ultimate mode) Toward you. Stop X Distance and surround you, Onslaught of claws, sabres and photon bullets. Dead Hunter/Ranger/Force! The same AI throught the whole game, the only thing that made this AI annoying was that they surrounded you, You keep your distance and youve crcked it! And a thin about PSO - Its bloody great. Ive been playin for 40 hours now on GC and iom still only half way through hard (Difficulty 2/4) so thats around 80-90 hrs Gameplay!! However the game is repetitive!!! The AI Is crap though! I actually said to my mate "I could program better AI than this!!". My Mate laughed at me sarcastically!

We are borg... You will be assimilated - Your technological distinctiveness will be added to our own... Resistance is futile!
Current Project: Bomber Pro
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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 11:51
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Quote: "The AI Is crap though! I actually said to my mate "I could program better AI than this!!". My Mate laughed at me sarcastically! "


Then tell him this from me:

Any idiot, and I meen ANY IDIOT, can code a better AI than is seen in the majority of commercial games.

Only a few commercial games feature one beyond the grasp of a drunk felopian crawler and have the distinction of an AI that I would award the accolate of "sub-standard".

It is my honest opinion that you, ConsoleBoy164, could write a better AI than the one you described. BTW: Do you program at all?

Pneumatic Dryll
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DarkSith
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Posted: 9th Jun 2003 13:14
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Speaking of AI, I was watching a trailer of Ninja Gaiden that I had been given as a gift by Zack when playing as Tina in Dead or Alive Volleyball and the AI looks really complicated.

"He will join us, or die my Master..." - Darth Vader
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