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3 Dimensional Chat / Ravens Zombie model ... C&C'd

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23
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 01:36
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Ok, to better expain what bothers me about the ripps in clothing is the fact that they look like they were cut with sissors and not ripped. I thought this because you would fix it with the texture (draw tears in the cloth making sure to leave missing areas trasparant). Also maybe add a few more wrinkles to the cloth. I know you're not a texture artist so I didn't comment on them as you already know that they need to be improved.

As for the crack about realism, we could use just boxes and pretend they're mosters. Even when working on a completely fictional project you need to make it beleavable enough to keep the player intestested. If you have no illusion of reality people get bored with it.

Teenage Male Geek + Female Remotly Intersted in Common Geek Activities = Teenage Male Jackass
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 01:58
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Raven: "i've seen alot of comments like "his pant leg and sleeve are kinda floating there un attached that kinda unrealistic" ... and i suppose the Walking Undead are common around your town?"

That really isn't a valid argument. Regardless of how realistic or unrealistic something is, there are some lines you just cannot cross and still expect people to suspend disbelief.

In this case, pants that are cut or torn in the manner presented in your screenshots simply cannot, now or ever, here or anywhere, be considered believable. I can buy a walking undead gentleman, but I cannot accept magically levitating torn cloth. It doesn't matter if it comes from you, Simple, or Paul Steed...it's just not believable.

This falls into the common category of stuff that just can't be explained away, and those rules apply to everything fictional. These rules for reality versus expectation of reality, when violated, are glaringly obvious and will ruin the effect. As an example, revolvers that eject spent cartridges like an automatic pistol are a violation of this common sense rule. (This example comes from a Spider-Man comic strip in a newspaper.)

Also a violation of this rule are the missile racks on certain Battletech/Mechwarrior PC mecha, which are said to be internally reloadable (that is to say, their datasheet says there is more than one salvo available for the launchers), yet the blueprints (and there are blueprints, the most notable of which were drawn by Steve Venters for FASA in the early 1990s) show no provision whatsoever for the storage of the extra missiles, nor are there reloading tracks for same. Had they not published the fictional blueprints, I could easily have ignored the dubious nature of internally reloadable missile racks.

The same principle applies to torn clothing...if a part of the trouser leg is completely severed, it will (and must) either collapse around the ankle or slide off the leg completely at some point. It isn't going to stand perfectly vertical and intact as if it were a section of PVC pipe. This is even more true for shirt sleeves, which don't have feet and shoes to collapse around.

Really, Raven, you shouldn't confuse realism with plausibility. Just because something isn't, strictly speaking, realistic doesn't mean you have carte blanche to throw common sense out of the window and expect it to slide.

-Misanthrope
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Evil Noodle
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 02:36
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im sorry , i thought long and hard about not posting about something probably irrelevent to most of you , but please can youse ditch the swearing , it is not only a really bad expression of feeling but their are also people a lot younger than yourselves on this forum

T.A.F.K.A.C.M.O.T.D
The Artist Formally Known As Cut_Me_Own_Throat_Dibbler
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 03:21
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I don't understand it not being realistic...
a person will sweat even after they die, when sweat congeals it becomes sticky - so when you have alot of sweat + blood your clothes will stick to you. This is why Surgoens cut away clothing to make sure that if they have to remove the cloths from a wound because of being stuck it is easier and less complicated to do it with a smaller piece.

You only see the bones from the skeleton however no-one as said they don't disbelieve that the bones could move without a muscle, but that isn't to say that the rest of the limb isn't still within the pant leg is it? or the arm is still inside the sleeve.
The undead just is not real, not is it entirely plausable ... congealed blood & sweat acting as a form of glue and starch can actually be proved in real-life, just look at how a bandage will stick to a larger cut when you remove it.

Not to mention the enbalming fluid is also designed to harden once it has finished doing its job - and no body wonders how the heck a dead body can come out of the ground from a coffin when it is actually physically impossible for anyone to break open a coffin lid and push up 6ft (around 3tonnes!) of dirty from above them.
I'm sure given time you could dig out, however if you broke open the casket (which isn't very likely when Zombies are about as intelligent as a Llyod or Harry from Dumb&Dumber) then the earth would immidiately fall inside and you'd need not just super human, but more strength that 3x JCB's to push that much dirt up just to be able to tunnel out, not to mention comprehend the situation.

But no the one bit i'm being flicked at about plausibility is the Pant Leg & Sleeve. As for the other details they could be fixxed with a texture ... and really i could just fix that connection thing within a few seconds. Still seems stupid that the one beef about it is actually the most bloody plausible and scientifically possible part about the model.

And its not as if i'm the first guy to have a zombie model with bits like that ... i mean for crying out loud the Zombie Ghost in Blair Witch Project has entire limbs floating in mid-air. Don't hear any of you grumbling that, that isn't a professional looking model.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 03:31
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Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 04:29
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Raven, you can't assume that everybody who sees that model has an IQ of 1500 and an imagination broad enough to make up silly justifications for stuff that, simply put, violates expectation of reality.

Some stuff in reality is just too strange to believe unless you see it for real. So people view fictional works with whatever experience and knowledge they have, and the natural assumption held by most is that cloth is very much like water in that its form is defined by another object. So even if the zombie's pants leg and sleeve are starched stiff with unpleasant effluvium, it still does not look "natural" to the eye.

Especially if the beholder is not a mortician, forensic scientist, or anyone who would have a reason to assume that congealed fluid issue is what's holding up the severed clothing sections. And you do have to admit, that's still a really weak explanation. But if it were to be seen in real life, it wouldn't be questioned.

People don't argue with reality...but games, movies, and stuff like that are NOT reality and therefore you need to cater to expectation of reality rather than absolute reality. I could do an extremely realistic laser beam effect in DarkBasic, but people would complain loudly that it "isn't realistic" because there's no visible beam and no real sound save that caused by energetic interaction with the target matter. Yet people don't dismiss televised footage of the groundside testbed for the YAL-1's laser package or the MIRACL and THEL laser systems being tested in real life as "unrealistic", even though it looks nothing like the movies.

I could do a very realistic space simulation, but people would complain loudly at the lack of sound and the difficulty of controlling something in zero-gee conditions. Yet they wouldn't question footage of spaceflight, even though it looks nothing like the movies or TV.

My point is, in order to have fictional works make sense, it has to look and feel right, as opposed to being right. More often than not, it means catering to Joe Average's perception of reality rather than actual reality itself.

And I didn't grumble about that other zombie you so petulantly showcased as "inferior" in your previous post because I didn't even know it existed, and if I had, I would have critiqued it accordingly upon request.

However, as it stands, I'm getting the overwhelming impression that you and Simple are peas in a pod when it comes to criticism. Neither one of you handle it very well, apparently.

-Misanthrope
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the_winch
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 04:32
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I have seen clothes act like that in real life, if you walk through fields in winter you will get water on your trousers and when it gets to night the water will freeze making your trousers rigid like cardboard. If ripped the leg would then hang as in this model.

All it would take is for some liquid to be absorbed by the cloth and then for the liquid to harden. Proberly not too implausable with a rotting corpse.

The only real problem I can see is the cuts in the cloth are a bit clean.

Perhaps if you looked at the original post which simple didn't link to and download the demo of the game it was made for you would find this model more than adequate. It is not the holy grail of zombie models and the texture could be better but in the context which it is going to be used it is more than adequate.
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 05:00
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Yes, it happens in real life.

The fact remains, however, that Raven or anyone else who makes a model that exhibits obscure or strange real-life phenomena should design their models so that he shouldn't have to explain the oddities. The fact that he's had to explain (and you've kindly corroborated his explanation using frozen water as an example) the starched-leg issue still indicates that the model has failed to be immediately "accepted" visually by at least a few people, and for the same reason.

Ultimately, a game model should do its job well enough that any idiosyncrasies are not immediately apparent to the beholder. In doing this, it's often easier to simply remove or edit the offending parts of the model. Or even as Raven suggested, connect the parts by tatters in a few places.

Let me give you an example from personal experience. I created an aircraft model for an experimental flight simulator in another tool package that had underslung munitions such as rockets and cannons. I was told by no fewer than four people that the centerline 30mm cannon pod looked wrong because (surprise surprise) the upper surfaces were being brightly lit by the environmental lighting despite being in the shadow of the fuselage. This aircraft model failed the visual acceptance test in my book, and saying "Well, that's the fault of the renderer's lighting algorithms" was not an option.

Everything about that model was carefully thought out and designed, but it did not change the fact that the four people who tested it unanimously and independently said that it looked wrong in the game. So I eliminated the centerline cannon pod and replaced it with two smaller, wing-mounted 23mm autocannon pods. It suddenly looked right to the testers, and that was more important to me than "sticking to my guns" on my original vision for this aircraft.

Then again, I do my game models to look correct and visually pleasing to the target audience (players), not to boost or stroke my own ego. Perhaps that's an unusual perspective around these parts, given the sheer ubiquity of "No, it's just so and entirely right because I made it, and you're wrong to criticize it!" posts cluttering this forum like odious piles of dog leavings in a public park.

-Misanthrope
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John H
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 05:23
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Cant we all just sit around the table, lean back, watch TV and have a nice..Pepsi (some of us arent old enough for the...other stuff ) Cmon guys! We could all tell those cool stories (well..) like "One time at Band Camp.." lol! Comon guys! Cant we just give it a try?!

No? OK I cant say I didnt try...

[Straps on Kevlar and backs away slowly with the "Guys?" look on the face, everyone turns and nods to eachother and all chase RPGamer out of site and return to bickering,,,boy that was a long...thingy]

Oh boy....what have I gotten myself into!

Current Project: Eternal Destiny
Questions? Comments? Suggestions? Go to the Eternal Destiny Forum!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 05:56
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Quote: "Neither one of you handle it very well, apparently."


you wanted the explaination of how and i explained it.
that aside though, the point is there are ALOT of assumptions being made.

a) that the Texture is done and not going to be touched again.
b) that the Alpha Map (which most probably didn't even know existed) isn't identical to the Texture Map, nor has it been shown yet.
c) the plausibility of a greyscaled model which you'll be running from and will only be able to properly see when it is as good as ontop of you, somehow is subsided by trying to keep the count as low as possible as to allow it to be used on as many systems as possible (even 8mb cards) without any memory worries.
d) not taking into account perhaps the animation actually takes this into account, no one has seen either the animated nor alpha mapped model yet
e) that these screenshots where taken as part of a C&C request whilst developing, infact all they were ever intended as were to show Randi what i'm working on for her - nothing more, nothing less. So alot of detail omits arn't there which would be in a finished game model... i mean for crying out loud the end result is a greyscale model and someone commented about the colours of it. lol
f) y'all seem to believe this is the one and only model to be made... i mean adding details to add atmosphere after a model is mapped and rigged isn't too hard, its just a case of reenveloping the affected section and using a bit of blank texture space.

as for Misanthropes story, that seems kinda stupid. I mean if you don't understand the lighting conditions of an engine then its upto you to learn them and work around them rather than just change the model to suit your own realism.
You also should take into account about how and when the weapon would actually be viewed ... in my opinion it would be a job for the programmers to fixx, i'd note that the normals on the weapon although obviously within a shadowed area were still being taken into account. However that said i'd probably also either dim the texture colour as i know its in a shadowed area else i'd set the normal indices to positions which would mean it was always shaded right. You could also change the material so that it doesn't actually accept much external light by making its Specular Black at 0% or setting up its ambient & diffuse to compensate.

Also you have to weigh up the people who will with the people who won't... if i gave a model to say 30 people and only 4 come back and say something here looks off, thats only 4/30 (around 10%) and to be honest depending on how they answer - would depend on whether i changed it ... if they sounded like know it all nerds on the subject i'd just leave it, because quite frankly if your going to look at the game that closely and actually complain about something which is more the fault on the engine - then sorry i ain't doing anything about it.

I mean there is no point in wasting very valuable development time on something that is really a minor oversight - now if the Texture was putting the whole shading of the craft off, THEN i would do something. The point in developing professionally isn't to always have the 100% asthetic model, but to have one which will work within the environment your modeling it for.
If people let someone stupid spoil thier gaming experience then why on earth are they even gaming in the first place, especially someone as subtle as the highlighting on a weapon which would really be hidden from the cockpit or rear view. So really when your playing you wouldn't be able to see the bugger, its just when your inspecting the models closely - and what kinda freak buys a game just to sit there and inspect the models?

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Solidz Snake
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 06:25
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RPGamer, u wan some of my popcorns?
Other viewers at home, beers on the house
(RPG, dun u dare go near that beer table, wait until u're old enough)

Snake? What happened? Snake? Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake!!! - Colonel Roy Campbell

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 07:12 Edited at: 16th Jun 2003 19:34
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i was bored, this is no longer the Zombie that'll be shown in Randi's game mind you - just the place holder that i've finally got around to rigging again.

//note they're not there yet cause i can't connect to my ftp and i really can't be arsed to sort it out right now //



and before you ask, no not a great deal has changed - infact close to nothing cept the texture to grey & alphamap added render.
perhaps now you can understand that it does look extremely different with them.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 07:47
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"as for Misanthropes story, that seems kinda stupid. I mean if you don't understand the lighting conditions of an engine then its upto you to learn them and work around them rather than just change the model to suit your own realism.
You also should take into account about how and when the weapon would actually be viewed ... in my opinion it would be a job for the programmers to fixx, i'd note that the normals on the weapon although obviously within a shadowed area were still being taken into account. However that said i'd probably also either dim the texture colour as i know its in a shadowed area else i'd set the normal indices to positions which would mean it was always shaded right. You could also change the material so that it doesn't actually accept much external light by making its Specular Black at 0% or setting up its ambient & diffuse to compensate."

You try doing all that with 3D RAD.

Limited-feature engine, doncha know. Changing the model itself was the quickest and simplest fix, given how there really weren't any other options, and I'm not the guy who programmed 3D RAD.

That project was designed to find and explore the limits of that particular engine across a variety of issues, and the beta testers helped me gauge the overall performance of the executables created by 3D RAD across different hardware platforms. Yes, I could have just gleaned some germane data from their forum, but I don't really think a forum full of strictly basic-level users is a good place to ask "When does this engine, properly utilized, hit its knees and cry uncle?"

And changing the model, in that particular case, does count as "working around the lighting conditions". I texture pretty well myself, and I did shade the cannon pod's texture to account for its location. That was why it seemed so glaringly obvious to the testers.

Additionally, I think you were somewhat off base with your comments about "freaks" and "admiring models". When you're flying a relatively slow VTOL aircraft in close formation with others, you are bound to notice anything abnormal with your wingmen's aircraft...especially with ordnance loads of a highly visible nature.

I also don't distribute executables to "stupid" people. My testers were chosen because of their honesty, intelligence, and their ability to break seemingly invulnerable code. If they tell me something sucks, I value their opinion because I know that they're honest, and most importantly, intelligent enough to give me specific commentary.

I would have assumed that you'd be cogent enough not to post an incomplete model in a public forum without being aware of the potential consequences, especially with a "rival" just as eager to reciprocate your customary behavior when it comes time to compare manhoods. The old saying "A manuscript, much like the human foetus, is hardly improved by showing it ahead of time." comes to mind, even if it wasn't quite coined with 3D models in mind.

At any rate, I find your constant, not exactly subtle, and silly attempts to assert your "superiority" over the rest of us lowly peons quite amusing.

-Misanthrope
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SS1k
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 08:32
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Actualy, hear is my philosophy about gamming characters and graphics. I dont care how realistic they are, or how many good textures, animations, or details you put into a moddle. If it dosent fit into the context of the theme and situation of the game, it won`t work.

For example, that Zombie is supose to be in Randi`s game.(UGH! Dont make me get started on that b****)She said she wanted it to be scary, so that you whould have to flea instead of fight. That zombie looks so harmless and stiff/rotten, that I the player whould actualy laff at it and try to shoot at it anyway.

Sugestions. Add more flesh to the bones. Add vains and skin cracks that seep blood. Remove a limb or something. Do anything to make it the most frightining thing as possible inorder to scare the player, or the player will simply think this is a joke.

.:SIDEP0CKET:.
:..>Mind is Thought
:..>Play is Fun
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 20:03
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Quote: "Additionally, I think you were somewhat off base with your comments about "freaks" and "admiring models". When you're flying a relatively slow VTOL aircraft in close formation with others, you are bound to notice anything abnormal with your wingmen's aircraft...especially with ordnance loads of a highly visible nature."


but again you're forgetting that aircraft are metal and by nature reflect light which the nosecone can also reflect and a prefectly shiney weapon will appear to have a wrong shadow.

you say your not trying to fool Joe Public, but your trying to export to people with intelligence to spot these things - BUT THIS DOES NOT EFFECT GAMEPLAY!
Sure it might seem annoying to those who fell they understand Light and Caustics but it wont' bother people who actually understand how lighting works, nor would it bother someone who doesn't care greatly about realism and that it just looks like what it is suppose to.

As for not being able to do much in 3D Rad, i suggest around 6-7 things you could do one of which was altering the texture itself, if you can't texture in 3DRad (which i know you can) then why on earth were you even using it?
That aside i also know that 3DRad is capable of importing 3DS and other major formats, so you could've used a REAL 3D Package to create and edit your models.
I'll reitterate that this is a problem you should've brought to the coder rather than just decide to sort out yourself as they wouldn't have known and how else do they fixx bugs - most flight sims release format importers for the community so if the engine isn't fixxed then the community would want to know why their models are also doing this.

At the end of the day you used these tools you can either put up with thier qwirks else ... i mean you can't always listen to what is being said to you because sometimes comments that are said are just unrealistic. You took all of thier advice and rather than thinking a way around the problem you decided to get rid of it in replace for something that wont be affected.

And you wanna know the superiority here is that i actually understand what i'm doing, and most of you just believe you do ...
christ if you can't see the difference of thinking hard and making a model perfect and perfecting it for gameplay as a difference you really don't have a leg to stand on do you. And you little story has just proven that you don't really understand.

I mean what would you have done if you had an apache? just taken off its most major feature because it wouldn't look right to a few whiney people?
Becuase if you took it off even more people would complain because you notice something like a 20mm cannon missing from the front of probably one of the most famous attack helicopters in the world.
You would have been forced to either explain light indexing to those customers who don't think it was realisitic ... fixx it another way, else just release regardless.

And if yout want to bitch with people about realism of this, take 2 Metalic Objects (one a circle) go outside and then look at how the shadows ACTUALLY fall on them. You'll find they depend heavily on where the sun is in relation, but no one every thinks about that.

As i've said this is all about a balance NOT a perfection seek, if you get obssesed with perfection you will ALWAYS waste more time than you have for working on something - i think that most peopel forget betweena professional and someone doing this for amature projects is we think about ALOT more things than simply the appearance of the model.

Texture Sizes (vid size & processing power)/ Texture Power Needed (Shaders For Example) / Models Role (determins polys) / Animation requirements / Total Ram Required to load the Instance / Add onto this it must FIT the atmosphere it is going into, you can't have a colour model of a pixy jumping around in a game that is a 50s B&W Horror - oki maybe that is extreme but you understand the point.

Think about it oftenly we have to make around 20-30 models within the space of a month, we really don't have the time to sit there and exam the entire model over and over and have other examine it then go back to it.

As i've mentioned before everyone keeps mentioning about the texture, not the mesh - which can be changed at anytime i choose.
And we have Misanthrope going on about stupid plausibility yet there is no comment on the plausibility of
A)the walking dead, no matter how much you hope it just isn't possible
B)nothing about the Blair Witch model which is even worse for this than mine, yet no doubt that one is a professional polished look and mine isn't - but i doubt anyone will explain why (as they still haven't about the model on its own)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 21:50
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The Blair Witch model is Half Ghost/ Half Zombie. That means that parts of it are invisible. the invisible parts have clothing, and limbs attached, but you can't see them. So therefore the clothing is not really suspended in mid-air like yours, it is held by the spirit part of the zombie. Your model just shows bad foresight into the relationship between onlooker, and model. Even if you explain it away as congealed blood, and enbalming fluid, you have not portrayed a satisfactory representation of a zombie with torn clothing. This portrayal is age old, and has been featured in many films before. The portrayal is of a humanlike figure, which has died, and been reborn. The clothing has always been natural flowing. For it to be blood soaken, and hard would be out of character. Constructive criticism says it looks wrong, and that is for a modeller to pay attention to. The texture is also constructive criticism, even if you can't texture, you have been offered advice. Most comments are advice, and some people can't take it. Professional modellers on the other hand have a duty to listen to comments at work. You should be used to this sort of comment, but you are not showing any sign of taking advice given, and then going back to the model, and changing it. Joining scraps to the tattered drainpipe trousers would probably take you a few minutes. I have worked with professional modellers so I have some knowledge of what is expected.


Pincho.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 23:29
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fine Pincho whatever, i'm sure a Ghost Zombie is far more plausible to you ... i really don't care - ya'll are just being parrots about something i've already said will probably change.

Getting really pissed off with the entire attitude of all of your now, you bitch about the texture countless times even after i've said it is likely that will change as i'm not even happy with it.
You bitch about the fact that the limbs are floating - yet this is without seeing it animated, and i've also said i will probably fixx that as well.

But no you all have to bitch on about plausibility, the say over and over how you want the same things changed,

I NEVER ASKED FOR THIS C&C, THESE PICTURES WERE NEVER SETUP FOR ANY C&C OF ANY KIND, EVEN AFTER SHOWING THE MODEL I HAVE BASED THIS ON (THE BLAIR WITCH ONE ABOVE) YOU ARE STILL BITCHING ABOUT PLAUSIBILITY.

quite frankly you can take these comments and stuff them up your ass, because it seems quite apparent all you want to do it bitch about the model and you don't care what you say to bitch about it.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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APEXnow
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Posted: 16th Jun 2003 23:56
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You see Raven, this is exactly what I mean, you didn't even create the frigin post!

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 00:05
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Raven, you're getting fairly silly here.

"but again you're forgetting that aircraft are metal and by nature reflect light which the nosecone can also reflect and a prefectly shiney weapon will appear to have a wrong shadow."

Flat paint. Close air support aircraft, last I checked, weren't all glossy and bright. The weapon also wasn't anywhere near the nose either. Look at photos of the A-10 Warthog or AV-8A Harrier in CAS or Navy colors, and you'll see they're nowhere near as shiny as a 1950s vintage F-86 Sabrejet. My aircraft was of a similarly matte finish.

"As for not being able to do much in 3D Rad, i suggest around 6-7 things you could do one of which was altering the texture itself, if you can't texture in 3DRad (which i know you can) then why on earth were you even using it?
That aside i also know that 3DRad is capable of importing 3DS and other major formats, so you could've used a REAL 3D Package to create and edit your models."

I do use a real 3D package for my 3D models, thank you very much. 3D Canvas Pro suits me quite well, and it's extensible via plugins and scripts. Plus for $70 or less, it's one hell of a deal.

You also don't seem to know all that much about 3D RAD...or you'd also know that you can't create models or do anything but the simplest of planar UV maps in it.

"you say your not trying to fool Joe Public, but your trying to export to people with intelligence to spot these things - BUT THIS DOES NOT EFFECT GAMEPLAY!
Sure it might seem annoying to those who fell they understand Light and Caustics but it wont' bother people who actually understand how lighting works, nor would it bother someone who doesn't care greatly about realism and that it just looks like what it is suppose to."

I don't see why I have to settle for mediocrity. IMHO that's why a lot of games are boring and/or unexceptional...because someone said "Screw it, just ship it, they won't know any better" at some point. I'm not some 12 year old Counterstrike playing idiot, and I do have some basic standards I expect games to meet before I spend a single dime on them. My game collection is very small because most of the stuff published doesn't meet my standards.

And I think I have the right to be as much of a perfectionist about my hobby projects as I want.

"I'll reitterate that this is a problem you should've brought to the coder rather than just decide to sort out yourself as they wouldn't have known and how else do they fixx bugs - most flight sims release format importers for the community so if the engine isn't fixxed then the community would want to know why their models are also doing this."

LOL...and what makes you think I wasn't the coder also? You've obviously never used 3D RAD. First of all, 3D RAD isn't a flight sim. I wrote a dinky little flight simulator *IN* 3D RAD. I did the models for it too. Oh, and I textured them too. Come to think of it, I did the whole game myself.

Aaaaaaand this isn't just a 3D RAD problem, it's a problem with most of the packages I've used. To graphically illustrate what I mean, build two walls. Add a light to the scene. Make sure one of the walls blocks the other wall from the light. You'll see that the light magically illuminates both walls regardless of occlusion.

This is what my problem was, the sunlight was penetrating the aircraft and illuminating its ordnance load inappropriately. And it looked sufficiently wrong that people pointed it out. As the modeler, I listened. As the coder, I couldn't get around it. So putting on my modeler hat once again, I decided to get rid of centerline ordnance. Why? Because I designed the aircraft, and I can do whatever I want to it.

"I mean what would you have done if you had an apache? just taken off its most major feature because it wouldn't look right to a few whiney people?
Becuase if you took it off even more people would complain because you notice something like a 20mm cannon missing from the front of probably one of the most famous attack helicopters in the world.
You would have been forced to either explain light indexing to those customers who don't think it was realisitic ... fixx it another way, else just release regardless."

Er, now you're getting really silly. I can get away with removing or adding whatever it is I want because the aircraft isn't a real one, and because I designed it from start to finish. So I exercised the freedom I had as the designer. I guess you don't think other people have enough imagination and talent to design their own models rather than buying, stealing, or borrowing them.

And by the way, the Apache's chain gun is 30mm, not 20mm. And it's small and metallic enough that the incorrect lighting would actually make it look good. There's a big difference between a small, shiny metallic autocannon and a large drab-painted gunpod that occupies a shadowed concavity between two protruding fuselage halves.

Sorry, try again.

-Misanthrope
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Pincho Paxton
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Raven didn't create the post but he did ask for opinions after Simple made the post. He also asked for opinions on the Blair Witch Zombie, and I replied to Raven. It's no good asking for an opinion, and then saying that you didn't want an opinion.

Pincho.
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 00:44
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its not the fact of giving an opinion... its a fact that your all are saying the exact same opinions over and over and over in each of your posts EVEN AFTER i said that these things are not set in stone and they're likely to change.

What don't you people even have simple concepts of the English language any more?
the opinion on the blair witch mode as i've said is just as implausable...

as for Mis - well your saying several different things, perhaps if you stick to one then you can get actual advice... i know that 3DRad is a programming script engine for C, no i don't much else past that - but it doesn't matter because in DBP if your programming a game you don't blame the engine that your working in because the light isn't taking into account the aircraft it is most likely the fact that YOUR programmer isn't.

And you are missing the point, as there is a different between wacking out a model which just closely remsembles something and putting a perfect model out.

When your working to such low polygon counts, the last thing on your mind is - does the texture look alright ... it won't matter a dikkin' is the texture is wrong IF the animations are all messed up because of vertex in the wrong place, nor does it matter how many tears it has because people are going to bitch that the tears moves as a group when animated rather than individually which you just can't provide with limits so low.

Everything i said about what you did was totally true, it wasn't silly at all - you might be using 3D Canvas Pro (which i'd hardly call a decent modelling package) but you also said that you couldn't edit these things within 3DRad ... I can't edit the specular colour and ammount within DarkBasic Standard this doesn't mean the engine doesn't support them!

as an artist it is YOUR job to get the best out of what is available too you ... i mean it is all well and good making a hyperdetailed 1024x1024 head texture which makes all the rotting flesh of a zombie be pukingly realistic, if you only loose alot of that detail when it is changed to greyscale and then scaled down from a 250kb picture (which would expand to around 2mb in engine) to a 30kb 256x256 image which all graphics cards support and will expand to only around 200kb in memory.

If you want to go for perfection in Hobbiest Venture then thats upto you, after all its your venture and project. But don't go about telling me that this should ALSO apply to all the work that i do, because i might not be developing with a hobbiest "lets not care about anything cept the looks" mentality.
And thats cool you made up your own jet so you have complete creative freedom, but apparently i don't have this luxury because Zombies are more realistic than Jets for a FlightSim?

i swear you must be one of those people who sat through aliens and wondered why their blood was acid yet thier bodies were fragile & organic not... there are so many glaring omits all around, and yet people are picking on my work for such things that quite frankly you just wouldn't question if you saw it ingame (which WAS the original blasted idea)

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 00:48
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on last thing

Quote: "He also asked for opinions on the Blair Witch Zombie, and I replied to Raven. It's no good asking for an opinion, and then saying that you didn't want an opinion."


did anyone teach you the different between an opinion and telling someone something.

saying "i think that the clothes haning off like that doesn't quite look right." is an opinion.

saying "those clothes hanging off don't look right." and then aruging about how realistic it is - IS NOT an opinion

and repeating this fact AFTER someone has said "yeah, i'm most likely going to change that and just add a little bit."
is ALSO not an opinion. I'm getting sick of these stupid moronic posts.

Within the Epic battle of the fates the Shadow and the Angel will meet. With it will harbinger the very fight of good vs evil!
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MikeS
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 00:55
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Quote: "Raven didn't create the post but he did ask for opinions after Simple made the post. He also asked for opinions on the Blair Witch Zombie, and I replied to Raven. It's no good asking for an opinion, and then saying that you didn't want an opinion.

Pincho."


Obviously no one thought it would get out of hand like this.
Pincho, don't aggrevate the situation even more.

Let's just let this post flow on to the bottom of the pages.



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APEXnow
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I've already created a new forum post regarding this rediculous attitude that is obviously continuing to persist around the subject of modelling critique. When are you lot ever going to learn that irrespective of your opinions, you ain't gonna use the models in your programs, you ain't gonna pay for using the models in your programs, and you didn't create the models for your programs. So why insist on debating the negatives of the model designs if you're only going to critisize and insult the author.

I've seen enough of this banter to realize that I'm exposing myself to individuals who quite frankly, don't know their head from their arse, and persist on trying to prove themselves by arguing the issues of a particular model. I couldn't give a monkeys ass whether you like the model or not, but for Christ's sake, don't make it personal!!

Paul.

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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Misanthrope
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"as for Mis - well your saying several different things, perhaps if you stick to one then you can get actual advice... i know that 3DRad is a programming script engine for C, no i don't much else past that - but it doesn't matter because in DBP if your programming a game you don't blame the engine that your working in because the light isn't taking into account the aircraft it is most likely the fact that YOUR programmer isn't."

Er, no. 3D RAD is a dinky little 3D semi-point-and-click game creation app that's one step above 3D Game Maker and one step below DBC in complexity. It's not a "programming script engine for C".

I didn't write it, and that issue is one that a lot of 3D RAD users have complained about for ages. Swapping out the weapon for that one aircraft model solved the problem neatly. And it was a drastic visual improvement as well.

"Everything i said about what you did was totally true, it wasn't silly at all - you might be using 3D Canvas Pro (which i'd hardly call a decent modelling package) but you also said that you couldn't edit these things within 3DRad ... I can't edit the specular colour and ammount within DarkBasic Standard this doesn't mean the engine doesn't support them!"

Right, I forgot you use one of those ridiculously expensive 3D packages and naturally you'd dismiss the cheaper stuff rather than confront the possibility that you got suckered out of a lot of money. That is, if you actually did buy it instead of five-fingering it off Kazaa. To each his own, but I have yet to see a feature of a high-end modeling package that couldn't be plugged into 3DC Pro by anyone with a copy of Visual Studio.

And I haven't seen that specular highlighting and distinct vertex colors are possible to display in DBC. If this is possible, somebody correct me. (Not you, Raven. You keep confusing your rectum with your mouth.)

And thats cool you made up your own jet so you have complete creative freedom, but apparently i don't have this luxury because Zombies are more realistic than Jets for a FlightSim?

Actually, when you make up something fictional, it's not a license to throw common sense out the window. Just because I make up my own BS-errific vehicles doesn't mean that I'm immune to criticism. I bet some of my sillier designs would make an aeronautical engineer choke on his coffee. In fact, I'm quite positive the jet I designed for that little flightsim would fly about half as well as a brick if it used a sensible propulsion and lift system.

You do have the luxury of making your zombie look however you want. But if you toss common sense out the window, you will see complaints just like you have so far in this thread about drainpipe pants.

i swear you must be one of those people who sat through aliens and wondered why their blood was acid yet thier bodies were fragile & organic not... there are so many glaring omits all around, and yet people are picking on my work for such things that quite frankly you just wouldn't question if you saw it ingame (which WAS the original blasted idea)

Oh, that's easy. They're silicon-based according to the canonical Alien background, and as far as I know, silicon is impervious to acid.

I agree a lot of people wouldn't really have questioned the zombie you did (especially with the slightly improved new renders you posted recently), but you violated the age-old rule of "If your daughter's ugly, don't let the Prince see her up close until the wedding's set in stone." by posting a static shot of a fairly mediocre zombie model that would otherwise have looked fine in a game.

Admittedly, it was wrong of Simple to start this thread, but YOU did invite criticism in one of your later posts, and I quote:

"Don't mind that a C&C has been opened up, but it would've been nice to actually have been asked before someone made a post in my name and posted pictures of my work within it - i mean christ not asking is just plain rude wouldn't you agree?

any more suggestions for it i don't mind"

Hm. Like some mustard to sweeten these words, good sir?

-Misanthrope
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 07:18
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Quote: "Right, I forgot you use one of those ridiculously expensive 3D packages and naturally you'd dismiss the cheaper stuff rather than confront the possibility that you got suckered out of a lot of money. That is, if you actually did buy it instead of five-fingering it off Kazaa. To each his own, but I have yet to see a feature of a high-end modeling package that couldn't be plugged into 3DC Pro by anyone with a copy of Visual Studio."


i'm sure... because JTEdit & Milkshape also happen to be ridiculously overly priced modeling packages with all of the bells and whistles.

Quote: "In fact, I'm quite positive the jet I designed for that little flightsim would fly about half as well as a brick if it used a sensible propulsion and lift system."


and no doubt you never changed this, because that section of reality wasn't commented on so it wouldn't matter eh?

Quote: "Oh, that's easy. They're silicon-based according to the canonical Alien background, and as far as I know, silicon is impervious to acid."

hahaa so your telling me that if pammy-lee fell into a vat of acid her brests would survive? ... someone never took science at school i fear.

Quote: ""Don't mind that a C&C has been opened up, but it would've been nice to actually have been asked before someone made a post in my name and posted pictures of my work within it - i mean christ not asking is just plain rude wouldn't you agree?

any more suggestions for it i don't mind"

Hm. Like some mustard to sweeten these words, good sir?"


well that wouldn't have been the quote i'd of gone for because, that simply says i don't mind that the C&C post was opened - that isn't to say i wanted it. Nor did i think people would just start being stupid about it ... there is a grave difference between Constructive Critism and just nit-picking for the sheer hell of it.

Simple might have crossed a line, but a select few of you seem to believe that just because i allowed him to cross it means that you all have the ability to not only cross it but rub the entire f**ker away.

I didn't mind simple doing this because he is a bitter old man with bugger all else in his life (why else would he have done this?)
However you guys are just being bloody minded.

and if you don't think that DB has material settings, then you've obviously never used any of the material settings - as you can make some quite good metalic shines or semi-transparent model, or even set ambient lights to make things appear to slightly glow.
Of course you do need a material editor which is capable of changing the settings of the colours and depth of these things ... you can't export Max models directly into DB or DBP for example with the materials on standard setting because they just look at shiney.

as for the 3DRad thing, as i've said DB Enhanced has the abilities to edit the Normals of Objects to changing the lighting and i'm pretty sure 3DCPro does too (athough no doubt not quite as good as other programs like Wings3D)

Quote: "confront the possibility that you got suckered out of a lot of money. That is, if you actually did buy it instead of five-fingering it off Kazaa. "

its funny how many people seem to bring that up when they know they've lost... personally yeah i think 3DMax is a complete waste of money, but that said i didn't have a choice on whether i bought it or not - i could either work exclusively at work, or i could have one on my laptop so i could work no matter where i was in the world at the time. And if you'd been around long enough to know anything i personally hate Max more than most people who hate it, because first i truely hate it and secondly I HAVE to use it.
When i was working it wasn't a case of "oh i think i'll open up Maya today" ... you have to use what the hell they give you, and that was what i had to work with - there is no if/but/maybes.
But given the choice i'd still choose the bloody thing over 3DC or Rhino or Nendo as they're about as useful as an inflatable dartboard (imho) - i know some people like them and they're always harping on how 3DC has more features than Milkshape, but it costs more, it might do more, but its just pathetic for actual modeling.

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SS1k
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 07:45
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Wow, alot of hate in this forum! Spooky.

The only thing I am concernd about is if its scary enough. Scary dose not mean realistic, it just means it gives you chill`s now and then.

Right now the moddle is this type of scary:

As a game player, I want it to be this type of scary:

Wach some more Dawn/Day of the Dead and Zombie. You will then see how Zombies can be much more frightning with a little gash hear, a little gore there, teath, ect.

.:SIDEP0CKET:.
:..>Mind is Thought
:..>Play is Fun
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Shadow Robert
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yeah i know... i've been unable to find any of the movies despite having like 300movie channels, pitty it ain't Halloween lol
and to be honest i've never seen a movie with Zombies in it before, all i've got to go on right now is Resident Evil(1-3 as thats all i currently have, the rest are at a mates)/Blair Witch (game)/Typing of the Dead & a few online pics.
And to be honest the one you see shown i'd done during a single day, i didn't bother doing any research - didn't even look at anything else really, just had that picture of the Blair Witch zombie i'd noticed in a mag of mine.
Even then i spent most of the time i should've knuckled down and modeled watching the DBZ marathon on CN lol

i am currently designing new things, stuff to just add the atmosphere this time putting more than half-n-ass into it because it seems people want work they can tear apart as pro so i might as well make some sorta effort and actually work on them as if i were at the office
got alot of reference pictures now, some truely gruesome things from one site about horroy films ... and i've been onto Finearts to get some muscle/skeleton/skin examples so i can really let my imagination make this to the level where you wanna puke hehee

got some pictures of graveyards too so you can expect to see me working on a scary chruch and crap like that ... perhaps a Raven (it was only a matter of time before i did lol).
Also believe that if people want detail they're gonna get DETAIL.
not gonna spend 30minutes of actual texturing - i now know roughly howto use PS7, so i can get down to worrying more about the looks of the models overall.
Gonna be going on the assumption of say 180,000 polygon scenes (a p3-600 w/32Mb Ram w/GeForce 16Mb Card should be able to easily handle).
And i've got ahold of a Radiosity Vertex Baker

not gonna be around as much as a result though, i mean more Pro worth ethic means less time on DBP - but you can just see what Randi releases (cause i ain't releasing anything more on this to anyone cept her)

So what is finally achieved you can just wait and wonder about

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Misanthrope
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 13:08
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"i'm sure... because JTEdit & Milkshape also happen to be ridiculously overly priced modeling packages with all of the bells and whistles."

JTEdit isn't a good example. The author proclaims it to be "alpha quality" and "buggy, but improving". In my eyes, that's the same as saying "My daughter's a ravishing hottie who wants your body, but she's got gonorrhea, purulent anal cysts, and oral thrush in a major way. Don't worry, it's free if you want to give her a whirl. Wink wink."

It doesn't exactly inspire enthusiasm on my part when the author is as negative about his own work as JT is. And Milkshape didn't impress me terribly either despite its very attractive price tag, given the fact that I can do the same model in a much shorter time using 3DC...and with no exporting problems like a lot of people complain about.

Plus, at the time I had to choose between MilkShape and 3DC 3.32, 3DC was much easier to buy. Richard Borsheim doesn't ask customers to airmail him cash halfway across the world, and that's probably the biggest reason why he got $50 from me and Mete Ciragan didn't get $20 out of me.

"and no doubt you never changed this, because that section of reality wasn't commented on so it wouldn't matter eh?"

Didn't need changing because it looked just fine for what it was. Note that I did say "if it used a sensible propulsion and lift system", which is to say a conventional means of propulsion. The model in question relied upon science-fiction technobabble to get around in the air, so it needed to look the part. And it did.

Plausibility and realism are two different things, remember. So long as it seems plausible within the fictional context, you can come up with all kinds of wacky stuff without any ill effects.

"hahaa so your telling me that if pammy-lee fell into a vat of acid her brests would survive? ... someone never took science at school i fear."

Yes, it seems you didn't take science at school. Silicon is one of the major things that composes....gasp!...ordinary glass. Glass is, for the most part, chemically inert.

Why else do you think many strong acids are stored in glass or glass-lined containers?

Also, silicon is a fundamental constituent of photoetched circuit boards. Photoetching in this case involves a bath of heated and usually agitated acid, which dissolves the unmasked regions of the metal layers laminated onto the board. Yet the board itself isn't adversely affected by the acid.

As a professional miniature sculptor, I also work with silicone rubber when I need to make molds. It's very pliable, sticks to nothing except itself, and is extremely inert chemically. I would not be surprised if the eventual end result of Pammy's fall was a slick of silicone gel floating at the top of the vat. Then again, you forget she had her falsies removed, so we wouldn't even have the gel slick to look forward to.

"and if you don't think that DB has material settings, then you've obviously never used any of the material settings - as you can make some quite good metalic shines or semi-transparent model, or even set ambient lights to make things appear to slightly glow."

I never said DBC lacked material settings. I simply said that I haven't yet seen a model that showed off specular highlighting or varied vertex colors in DBC. Show me an untextured triangle with a red, a green, and a blue colored vertex blended into a rainbow gradient across the face, WITH camera-aware specular highlighting in a DBC demo, and I'll eat my words.

"as for the 3DRad thing, as i've said DB Enhanced has the abilities to edit the Normals of Objects to changing the lighting and i'm pretty sure 3DCPro does too (athough no doubt not quite as good as other programs like Wings3D)"

My, my, my...full of assumptions, aren't we? 3DC Pro is fully extensible with a comprehensive API for scripting and ActiveX plugin DLLs. In other words, it can do literally anything with the proper libraries. I'd dial back a little on the hasty and baseless "Such-and-such is a totally poo app" rhetoric if I were you.

And yes, it allows you to define normals very well both through the native interface and through the scripting/plugin API.

"its funny how many people seem to bring that up when they know they've lost... personally yeah i think 3DMax is a complete waste of money, but that said i didn't have a choice on whether i bought it or not - i could either work exclusively at work, or i could have one on my laptop so i could work no matter where i was in the world at the time. And if you'd been around long enough to know anything i personally hate Max more than most people who hate it, because first i truely hate it and secondly I HAVE to use it."

Uh, didn't you just say somewhere else that you never said you were a pro at 3D modeling, while defending your beginner-level modeling skills? Yet now you're carping on about how poor little Raven has to use MAX because it's required at his job...

Make up your mind.

Incidentally, on the subject of losing...I wasn't aware this discussion was a zero-sum competition, nor was I keeping score.

You keep making fallacious and self-absorbed statements in your replies, which I feel compelled to redact in the same way that I would clean up someone else's errant litter in my front yard.

After all, it wouldn't do to allow some future doe-eyed forum newbie to make the mistake of taking anything that comes out of your posterior as holy gospel.

I think I'll give this thread a rest because I don't like to see anyone grasping as desperately at verbal straws as you currently do.

-Misanthrope
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Rob K
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 16:11
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My 2p:

The model is OK, not fantastic, but OK, the mesh is pretty reasonable and the proportions seems fairly accurate and it the smooth shaded pic looks fine.

However, the texturing is terrible, and Simple explained all the problems with it.

It seems to be like maybe you too could learn from each other, certainly Raven you would do well to listen to Simple's advice on texturing.

The whole point of this model though was that it was made to help a DBP user, a DBP user who has actually produced something of worth. Its nice to see Raven showing a little community spirit for a change, no I don't think he is a pro modeller, but both of you are better than virtually everybody else here.

Do you want Windows menus in your DBP apps? - Get my plugin: http://snow.prohosting.com/~clone99/downloads/tpc_menus_103.zip
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APEXnow
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 16:27
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Quote: "The whole point of this model though was that it was made to help a DBP user, a DBP user who has actually produced something of worth. Its nice to see Raven showing a little community spirit for a change, no I don't think he is a pro modeller, but both of you are better than virtually everybody else here."


The problem with that is, assuming that they are better than virtually everybody here, is an assumption. The way I see it, if people are prepared to post images which will knock your socks off, then so be it, but it will instigate repeatetive and monotonous banter from people who are just posting to put their pennies worth.

I'm no guru when it comes to modelling but if I had the time and patients for creating a slick looking model with desent texturing, I would still think twice about posting it, at the end of the day, someone's bound to say something that'll just ssip< me off, making the whole excersise demoralising!

APEX!

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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actarus
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 16:45 Edited at: 17th Jun 2003 16:46
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-at the end of the day, someone's bound to say something that'll just ssip< me off, making the whole excersise demoralising!

Do you mean like this whole post which is rather a bash than a critique?

How can one post a textured model and ask for critique?

Does that make sense?(Well maybe for one that has no idea about criticizing a mesh )

Simple,as a texture artist,should've been the first to know that it's virtually useless to do so...and I think he did...I mean,are we supposed to believe that little manipulation on the first lines of the post?We ain't all kids here.

What!!?The guy is going to let's say,add a triangle here or there and then Re-Uvmap the whole thing or save the uv's and modify the map because of some debutant's thoughts on it?

Modeling Tip of the Week:The more details you put on a model,the more you will learn from it!
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 17:05
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Sure you can critique a finished model! You can critique such a basic texture map, because it is only a few minutes work! It's not detailed or anything. The mesh is of little importance to me really, the nose is too long, that's not a mesh problem, it's a facial problem to me. I don't look at a model as a model, I look at it as a Zombie, or whatever it is meant to be. In the industry, the people who make the final decisions about your models are bog standard buisiness men who know nothing about modelling, or programming. But they will say things like, "What is holding his trouser leg up?" You have to think like the bog standard buisiness man if you are going to get your models made without remaking them. Well really you have to think like the person who is going to play the game on here. Don't concentrate too much on the mesh..think of the model as a Zombie.
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Pincho Paxton
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As for Raven doing someone a favour, that was good of him! But remember this....most DB projects are Free software. So we all give our work away in the end.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 17:24
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Actarus

Quote: "How can one post a textured model and ask for critique?

Does that make sense?(Well maybe for one that has no idea about criticizing a mesh )"


Would you be kind enough to elaborate, I don't fully understand the quote or what you intentionally mean?

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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actarus
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 17:24 Edited at: 17th Jun 2003 17:25
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I think,first of all that many of modelers working in 'the industry' are Modeling/UVWmapping/Rigging/Animating artists and that most major companies will already split these jobs into different section to get devlopement done faster so really,texturing is another person's responsability as much as for criticizing it.


That said,sure being all of the above and having an additional good painting skill is a major plus,but when I think of a 'well critiqued' model,I think of a model that's been criticized from the first to the last vertex(not litterally) and this is exactly what Simple did for both his own last human models(the free one and the army guy)...

Beginning with a Flat shaded AND Wireframe(which annoys me when it's not supplied/shown because you can't judge the edgeloops which're vital parts of the animatability of a mesh),then maybe a rigged-Posed-textured-smooth-shaded version with an overlay of wireframes for the final result to show the absence/presence of the stretching and other visual aspects...

Then,it's not over,show the UVMap(where's Simple's experiment,can't be anything no one thought of before,c'mon) usually with the texture and again,a lowered opacity overlay of the UVW's.

Finally,the polycount and time is expected to be written as much as the software(s) used and the name of the author...Optionally,you can show the sketch artwork,which,IMO Simple should've shown since he's a good drawing artist.

With the above now said,how close does this post qualify as a Comment & Critique?

Modeling Tip of the Week:The more details you put on a model,the more you will learn from it!
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 17:36 Edited at: 17th Jun 2003 17:40
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Not many people have been hard on Raven's texture. We have been fair with him about his texturing abilities. When I said it was basic, and only a few minutes work, I meant that he could easily go back and redo some of the modelling, then UVMap again, and texture again, because it was not heavy on texturing anyway.
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actarus
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 17:48
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I agree you can restart a texture many times before getting it right...

Personally,with the way I work with layers and greyscale with a mouse I'd be satifiyed to have achieved that although I admit it would've needed a few additional fine stroke but without a tablet it's kinda hard(don't know what raven uses though)

Modeling Tip of the Week:The more details you put on a model,the more you will learn from it!
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Van B
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 18:07
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Pincho,
That texturing job took Raven 8 hours, he said so in Randi's topic, but it's fair to say that he's never proclaimed to be a good texture artist.

The main problem I have with the texturing is it's over the top. I'd rather see him start with a human face, then add zombie characteristics like putrid skin tone, a bit of knawed lip etc - perhaps a little like doing zombie makeup on a texture.

I remember a lot of zombie movies, I'm a bit of a horror fan, and it's quite common for a zombie to be mistaken for a normal person from a distance. If you imagine a zombie kneeling down over a body, he'd look scruffy but you would probably assume he was a vagrant or something, until he turns round with a bit of brain sticking between his teeth. Randi has probably got the zombie classics on VHS or DVD already - but the best one IMO is Dawn of the Dead - the one set in a mall, there's just something so eerie about the zombies wandering around like shoppers, plus malls are great survival movie settings.


Van-B

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 18:23
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He he I like that one too! I like the funny music with them all walking around, and using the escelator. I think that I would put some funny music in the game if I were making it. Plus escelators if I could manage it. Plus a Mall...with boxes to knock over and stuff. Tins of beans to shoot at and knock down from their pyramid. Maybe some human dummies that are used in shop windows. I suppose I would have to rotate them to the camera.

Pincho.
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APEXnow
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 18:27
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Ahh, but no advertising of Cokacola like those pathetic Australian soaps we're subjected to LOL

"Man who looses key to woman's appartment...... He get no nookie" - A wise chinese man.
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actarus
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 18:31 Edited at: 18th Jun 2003 00:41
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Modeling Tip of the Week:The more details you put on a model,the more you will learn from it!
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 17th Jun 2003 23:06
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APEXnow: "The problem with that is, assuming that they are better than virtually everybody here, is an assumption."

Amen. I'm glad I wasn't the only one to take notice of the trend for making inaccurate assumptions.

Just because a small number of people publicize their work on this forum doesn't mean they're the only modellers of some arbitrary skill level here. It's an inaccurate assumption...and as I've said in another thread, forums like this are not even close to being the first place the best 3D or texture artists would go for public exposure.

-Misanthrope
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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2003 01:31
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No Misanthorpe this isn't a modelling hotspot - it's a DB hotspot.

Raven and Simple post models that they're doing for games, other people, trying new techniques, etc etc etc etc. The critique people give here are in the context of engine usability, polygon counts as well as overall look - but the models never look the same in DB, so renders are fairly imaterial. Besides 'Wow, cool model' the other popular comment is 'What's the poly count?'.

Considering that you've yet to post anything - perhaps we need to retain out respect for those that make good models, not for those that talk good models. I've seen a lot of great work posted here by several users - the argument that the best modellers here don't post their work is tiresome, we're a sceptical bunch and like proof before taking comments seriously.

I'm interested in how many models posted on Polycount etc have featured in anything but a game mod. It's one thing to make models for Quake, HL and 3DRAD, but DBPro needs a different approach that not every modeller can get right.


Van-B

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actarus
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Posted: 18th Jun 2003 01:37
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You forgot'What software did you use?'

I'd say the way DB handles the .x format is fairly easy to grasp...It's almost got zero options.

Modeling Tip of the Week:The more details you put on a model,the more you will learn from it!
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Van B
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Posted: 18th Jun 2003 02:02
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Hehe, yeah, but the point I was making is that handling an animated model in DB is not easy, implimenting collision on a model is not easy - in fact it's fairly hard work to do it well. That's before you start worry about the model display properties!. I could'nt work with someone that did'nt consider implimentation before even starting a mesh.


Van-B

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Misanthrope
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Posted: 18th Jun 2003 04:28
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Van-B, you misunderstood the message in my post.

I am well aware that this is a game development forum and that any 3D models posted here are intended for game usage, and therefore should be viewed in that light. APEX's comment was simply a statement I felt strongly in agreement with, because I was raised with the belief that assumptions were a socially dangerous thing.

But anyway, the comment I made about this not being the ideal place to showcase 3D models is precisely why I wouldn't display static shots of my 3D work here on its own. This isn't a sensible place to get appropriate feedback on 3D models. But it is an appropriate place to get public feedback on how your models are received within the proper context.

I would gladly post here certain items like in-game screenshots or demos containing the model itself, for example. That way the model would be viewed in the appropriate context, and then it could be judged fairly.

You remember Simple's elite trooper model? You've said several times that it's awesome because not only did it look good, it also animated well and wasn't persnickety at all. You also had the chance see it in its proper context in DBP...unlike everyone else here, who saw only a few static "default-pose" renders of it. There's a pretty big difference in objectivity when you've seen something in its proper light versus someone who doesn't have the whole picture.

Likewise for Raven's zombie. It looks a bit better in the second set of screenshots, but it's awfully easy to bash because it's not being viewed in its proper context. I'll bet, however, that it would actually look fine in the game because there's usually no time to go over minute errors and nitpicks at runtime. Atmosphere and ambience can hide a lot of apparent "flaws".

I qualified that with quotes because even in professional games, those "flaws" are often deliberate for some reason or another...like the missing polygons or triangular grips on some weapons in Rogue Spear, for example. If Red Storm had posted static shots of those, they'd have been roasted alive in a deluge of flames...but in the game itself, those missing polies and incorrect cross sections are practically unnoticeable. Of course, there's also the flaws that come from bad modeling (The SA80 in Rogue Spear is just inexcusable), but those are just as easily overlooked at 30+FPS in a dynamic environment.

If I want a technical and aesthetic evaluation of my model's suitability for realtime rendering, I'll get it at Polycount because quite a few of the people there know how to model well for games. If I want an evaluation of my model's quality in a photorealistic render, I'll get it at the renderer's forum.

If I want the opinions of the forum denizens here on my 3D modeling work as it pertains to DarkBasic, I'll put up a small demo with the model in it or a set of in-game screenshots rather than just static renders or printscreened snapshots from the modeling package. THAT is the appropriate context IMHO for publicly showcasing 3D models here.

Does that make sense?

-Misanthrope
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 18th Jun 2003 05:28
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does anyone else find Mis just a tad... whats the word erm... Hypocritical?

I pride myself that i don't kill...
well not without a good reason
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MikeS
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Posted: 18th Jun 2003 05:32
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Chill misanthrope, you are getting a little hyped up on this.



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Let me know if you want your site to have a link on my page.
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Misanthrope
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Posted: 19th Jun 2003 00:27
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Yellow: Hyped up? I was quite calm in that post, actually. I shared my personal opinion on showcasing 3D work here, with examples of how I would do so, that's all. It wasn't a wax-stamped parchment Fuehrerbefehl inked in the blood of virgins mandating that everybody should do as I do or anything of the sort.

You're making too much of it. I don't tell you to stick your opinions where the sun doesn't shine, do I? I'd appreciate the same courtesy from you.

Raven: You're apparently the forum equivalent of the much-loathed local loudmouth, judging by all the posts I came across while tediously looking through the forums here and at RGT for any reports of problems with nVidia chipsets and static objects in DBC. (No search function here, and I hate being the guy who posts a question that's already been answered a zillion times before.)

I thought you were a better person than others were giving you credit for when I first came to the new Apollo forums, and that you were just having a bad week or something. Turns out you've been having a bad YEAR instead.

I also didn't know you'd actually been chased off RGT by a mob with pitchforks and torches either. I feel faintly silly for even saying anything to you in the first place because I don't usually pick fights with the intellectually and socially bankrupt.

Now that I know better, there's no point in debating anything with you. Besides, you apparently get more than enough of that from the rest of the forum. ::snicker::

-Misanthrope
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