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Dark GDK / IS GDK really all that powerfull... could it and other plugins make a game like BF2?

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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 17th Jan 2008 06:27
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IS GDK really all that powerfull... speacking could it and other plugins make a game like BF2? With performance in mind??

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david w
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Posted: 17th Jan 2008 06:33
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yes
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tempicek
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Posted: 17th Jan 2008 09:54
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Forget that, you will be smashed by performance problems a way before you reach a serious game demo (not talking about how difficult would it be to get there with GDK). Stick to a casual plaything and you can go thru pretty easily though.
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 01:40
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So ur saying its not worth attempting it. Coz that was my original thoughts that the program really isnt fully complete for something like that??? anyone have thoughts on this??

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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 01:42
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Interesting to see wat others have to say... maybe someone that has used GDK for a while..???

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david w
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 01:50
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It has the same issues as dbp less so if you only use the 3d graphics commands and c++ for everything else. I think you can make whatever game you want to with this. "If you can."
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 02:02
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I see.. my questions is more so even if everything is done top notch can the performance meet other comercial games??

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Windsept
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 03:13
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The game speed also depends on your programming skills and not just the language.
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david w
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 03:50
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I think you can make a game that is comparable to commercial games.
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 06:56
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has it been done yet?? like with DBPRO or GDK... like i no there are a few but i havnt heared of more than 2-3 games that have gone comercial.??? no of others??

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tempicek
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 08:28
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Quote: "I see.. my questions is more so even if everything is done top notch can the performance meet other comercial games??"


Not AAA titles, where the graphics engine is thoroughly optimized for the purpose. GDK is for fast and easy coding. Besides, the graphics provided by GDK is pretty old, so you would have to write tons of modern shaders anyway.
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Morcilla
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 10:25
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I have to say I'm going commercial with a DGDK project very soon. Of course it cannot be compared anyhow to any game 'on the shelves', and that is mainly because one single person (or a few) cannot beat a whole company team, no matter the graphics engine used.
The amount of things to do is cumbersome, not just coding, so any speed up at the coding, like DGDK provides, is crucial to make the whole idea realistic.
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 12:00
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Wat might ur game be im interested in the looking at it... Neeways I agree with what you are all saying.. Any other comments??

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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 12:02
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My interest is on the side of massive terrains with hundreds of plants trees ect with many players etc running arround.. what problems or limits could i run into wen doing this with GDK??

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david w
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 12:13
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That shouldnt be to hard to do. You would have to manage the trees and plants though manually to be able to maintain a good frame rate.

To show you that it is possible I threw this together. This is in dbp. But in DGK it will be much faster and smoother.

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david w
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 12:17
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Also here is another screen so that you can see that GDK is indeed powerful enough to handle any game as long as you can make it.

So I really think that it is really up to you if it can be done.

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tempicek
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 16:11
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Quote: "My interest is on the side of massive terrains with hundreds of plants trees ect with many players etc running arround.. what problems or limits could i run into wen doing this with GDK??"


An open space like Oblivion, Battlefield or Far Cry, huh? Forget that (But you can still use GDK for the network, sound stuff..., just don't make yourself aims that huge )

GDK simple doesn't give you enough control. And it blocks your way when you try to get on the lower level (not totally, but let you think - why the hell am I fughting it if I can make my way easier without that?), which is where you need to get to build a complex engine...

For a real graphics engine, I recommend to try out some cheap or free solution (like OGRE, Axiom, Irrlicht, Crystal Space etc.) or grab some older game/MOD engine (Unreal,iD Tech...) or build it from scratch. Or XNA could be a fine choice, since the development is extremely simple (based on .NET) and you have still full access to the lower level (plus portability to XBox360).
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 18th Jan 2008 23:56
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Very Interesting, Hmm what do you think would be the best choice to actually make a commercial game in the future? Something thats gunna be worth working on and will be kept up-to-date in the future and not left on the ground half done like TGC usually does lol I more so interested in something that has the power to create a game like BF2 or Farcry? By the way thanks for your expert comments as some people can be very vauge. I like the help you other and would like some more lol Im thinking that XNA is the best choise?

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tempicek
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 01:16
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Quote: " Im thinking that XNA is the best choise?"


For BF2 or Farcry? Don't think so. Partially for a performance reasons - your code in C++ will be faster, partially because it's still too low for a project that big - do you have enough manpower for the whole project? I doubt. Try to find some finished game engine (Source,Unreal,iD,...), even older one. I'm afraid I've lost my list, but there are surprisingly cheap ones (like thousands of dollars)... Depends on what services you need. Or take the free stuff way (OGRE + ODE + FMOD etc.), could be a bit jerky, but still it's a way and a free one.
Regarding XNA, I think it's gonna be a perfect choice for any serious development, but rather casual games, or in a mid-range (not AAA titles). It's extremely simple (not like GDK, but the development is faster anyway), pretty powerful and most importantly - it's being watched by big brother (so we can expect long term support and improvements) + its totally free, an easy way how to get on XBox360... Basically I'm also looking for not that expensive engine for a team, but until I find one which would fit our needs, I think I will write a lot of code using XNA
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 02:17
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For curiosity purposes, were would I look if I’m looking for an engine like that, I mean something that could handle a game like BF2 or farcry?? I think I might use XNA anyways to work on something.. What can I expect to be able to accomplish with XNA, like maybe examples of games made not necessarily with XNA but of what standard am I looking at?? What about something like Devil May cry.. I feel it could easily handle that??

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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 02:23
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Oh and in terms of DirectX10 what should i be considering in development means like i know XNA is Dirextx9 could this be a bad thing??

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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 02:38
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I might consider buying Visual Studio 2005 Proffesional if im gunna be serious about it.. I can get it for $200 lol much cheaper than most retails.. What are ur thoughts??

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Sephnroth
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 11:18
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GDK can be pushed pretty hard. Most of the barriers i've come across over the years have been bugs rather than inherant lack of ability in the engine - the difference being of course that one hopes that in the future those bugs will be gone.

You can actually push alot out of it but you have to write some pretty darn fine code. You'll need to manage your own visibility and balance your other routines in order to give a nice fps for the complex games.

I often go low level with dx for drawing to images and other such stuff - as temp said it can be a bit of a fight sometimes to go that low with dgdk but in answer to his "why am I fighting if i can do this with dx anyway?" simply because the other 20,000 lines of my engine were damn easy to write and arnt the 50,000 lines another engine would of made them!

A little bit of difficulty is worth it now and then and if you are aiming for commercial, top notch A class games then you cant expect a smooth ride anywhere xD


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tempicek
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 13:25
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Dark Angel_1246,

Quote: "were would I look if I’m looking for an engine like that, I mean something that could handle a game like BF2 or farcry"


That I was answering in the first paragraph of my previous post.

Quote: "What can I expect to be able to accomplish with XNA, like maybe examples of games"


It's only a year "on the market", so the code/project base is not that big, but it will likely grow rapidly considering the way how it is supported by Microsoft (worldwide presentations, contests,...). You can google a bit, you will find servers with a lot of stuff. It worth mentioning that there are sample games (so called starter kits - with source code and everything) distributed freely with the game studio and some of them are pretty cool (like the racing game http://creators.xna.com/Education/StarterKits.aspx#RacingGame). DungeonQuest is also very interesting demo, as it has been developed during a 4day contest - check it out: http://exdream.no-ip.info/blog/ct.ashx?id=ff31f4b8-bea4-456b-8e87-68ba7cb2b07b&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.unifaces.de%2fDungeonQuest%2fDungeonQuestSetup.zip

Quote: "Oh and in terms of DirectX10 what should i be considering in development means like i know XNA is Dirextx9 could this be a bad thing??"


Not these days, DirectX9 will stay with us for a long time, since DX10 doesn't run on WinXP. On the other side, in a long term speculation, it is a bad thing that XNA won't support DX10 (the functionality is limited due to compatibility with XBox360), but I'm pretty sure MS will answer that question when the time comes... (until that, it is limited to DX9 and that is a factor...)

Quote: "I might consider buying Visual Studio 2005 Proffesional if im gunna be serious about it.. I can get it for $200 lol much cheaper than most retails.. What are ur thoughts??"


Depends on your team size. I'm accustomed to Pro version, so I miss some stuff in the Express version of 2008 (which I haven't bought Pro edition yet). It can still be used pretty easily I think up to few members in a team. On the other side - if you can get it for $200, I wouldn't hesitate.


Sephnroth,

Quote: ""why am I fighting if i can do this with dx anyway?" simply because the other 20,000 lines of my engine were damn easy to write and arnt the 50,000 lines another engine would of made them!"


Truth. It's always what exactly one needs and wants. For example if you are ready to write your graphics from scratch, GDK can still offer sound system, some network layer and so on. If one has those stuff solved too (previous projects, other libraries etc.), then GDK starts to be pain in the ass (sorry for that, but everything starting from the installer to docs to code standard seems unprofessional to me).
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 13:52
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Thanks everyone for your comments, they have been very helpfull.. Tho i think its still open for argument if someone has something to say?? Speak up lol Laterzz...

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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 14:01
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oh i cant seem to get the Racing game working it says the template isnt supported.. not sure y this is any ideas.. the other templates work fine.. Let me no if u have any ideas why this is??

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tempicek
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 16:33
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Quote: "oh i cant seem to get the Racing game working it says the template isnt supported.. not sure y this is any ideas.. the other templates work fine.. Let me no if u have any ideas why this is??"


I've just tried and it works for me. Maybe it can have something to do with Visual Studio version, do you have 2005 installed? Not sure what the prerequisites are.
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Cryptic Dragon
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 16:51
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Very interesting discussion. I think that for the most part your idea of creating a game all by yourself is dependent upon your actual skills, knowledge, artistic ability, education, and even most importantly your drive and desire.

Maybe ask yourself are you doing for the fame and money or because you are truly a computer addict and you love to create new designs, ideas, and technologies.

Myself I have all of the required skills, knowledge, ability, education, and both the drive and desire to complete every single aspect including the entire website design and interface. I also allready have the entire game layout designed in my mind including the 3D graphic design. I also have a game name and website domains for the game name registered for it. I personally can not stay off of the computer and yes I am a computer addict. I will go days without sleep just to solve a coding problem.

Keep in mind, you can create the absolute highest quality 3D game on the planet with elite sound effects chocked full of the best AI and tons of levels all by yourself and the absolute worst quality team of C grade average programming students who sort of know some graphics stuff can create a pile of junk psuedo 3D/2D game with a number of levels that can be counted on one hand that will out sale you 1000 to 1 simply because the general public gets mezmorized by that products combination of effects. The general public is the random factor, look at how successful Pacman was and somewhat still is. I even found a file on the net produced in M.S.Excell that plays pacman with Excel and it is identical to the origional game. I am not kidding, and M.S.Excel or M.S.Access code is open source code called M.S.VBA so I have the M.S.Excel VBA code for Pacman.

[quote]oh i cant seem to get the Racing game working it says the template isnt supported.. not sure y this is any ideas.. the other templates work fine.. Let me no if u have any ideas why this is??/quote]

If it is the one available at MS then I tried to get it to work the other day and I have the same problem. I installed the VSI and used it in which the file unpacked just fine but for some reason it just will not set itself up in MSVC#Express2005 like some of the others do.

CrypticDragon

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Cryptic Dragon
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 17:07
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Pacman Excel

http://www.hanselman.com/blog/PacManWrittenEntirelyInExcel.aspx

CrypticDragon

You know for a fact that you have reached the edge when you can absolutely see sound!
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 19th Jan 2008 23:16
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Very Interesting guys, I am a computer addict lol.. neeways anyone else??

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tempicek
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Posted: 20th Jan 2008 11:06
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Quote: "oh i cant seem to get the Racing game working it says the template isnt supported.. not sure y this is any ideas.. the other templates work fine.. Let me no if u have any ideas why this is??"


Oh yeah, I think I know what it is. You need to create the new project in Visual C# 2005 Express Edition using the RacingGame template. The template is not compatible with Pro version of Visual Studio, which is probably what you used for it.
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Dark Angel_1246
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Posted: 21st Jan 2008 10:43
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Yeah i think ur correct.. Hmmm.. neeways fullas going away for a few weeks... Have a good one... Laterzzz

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