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After reviewing the free license for GDK, I found that doing a game subscription MMO style would be fine. They're not paying for the software - only the right to connect to the game server.

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programing maniac

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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 15:01

what about if you had a donations button, where people could donate to the cause of making a better game, but they don't HAVE to buy the game.

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dbGamerX

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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 16:25

Yeah. Like you donate, you get access to more of the game but you can still play for free.

See here for old sig

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SunDawg

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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 20:01

It seems extremely ungrateful to the great effort of Lee and the TGC team to try and exploit their freely available version of an excellent library.

My site, for various stuff that I make.

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david w

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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 20:34

why not just pay for the license if you think you can make any revenue via. donations or any other form?

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Zuka

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Posted: 28th Jun 2008 21:55

Hmm, I guess the donations thing could work. Save until I have $600? That was my plan before, anyway.

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programing maniac

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Posted: 29th Jun 2008 02:17

Quote: "why not just pay for the license if you think you can make any revenue via. donations or any other form? "

That is what I think you should do, and I think the game I am working on will end up like that, where we buy the lisence and then sell it, but for the earlier ones, they will have a donations thing.

Quote: "
It seems extremely ungrateful to the great effort of Lee and the TGC team to try and exploit their freely available version of an excellent library."

Very true, and my way of using the donations thing is to support the project until it is at commercial level. I don't want to have to make people buy a bad version of the game.

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kBessa

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 07:26

Oh, I answered this a lot...
No, even a donation button is not possible.

I have my old DGDK.NET Freeware license here (IIRC, it's the same for C++ version).

Quote: "(d) create, in strict accordance with the associated documentation, unlimited Freeware Games (as defined below), and copy and issue copies of these Freeware Games to the public in object code format only, and subject always to the provisions of section 4 below. The term "Freeware Game" means any Game (as defined in section 1.4 below) which is distributed or licensed to third parties (or otherwise exploited) on a strictly free-of-charge basis, in such a way that no person derives any commercial benefit from the exploitation of that Game;"

If you're accepting donations, you are getting a commercial benefit from the exploitation of the game you created. Even if you say: "But the game is free!", you probably wouldn't be getting ANY money it the game did not exist.

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Zuka

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 09:30

What if we weren't taking donations for the game, but for ourselves?

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SimSmall

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 10:13

Quote: "What if we weren't taking donations for the game, but for ourselves?"

The income is still coming from the game, not from yourself. If the game makes any money at all, for whatever purpose: the software is not strictly freeware, and thus you're breaking the terms of the freeware licence.

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Syncaidius

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 15:28 Edited at: 30th Jun 2008 15:30

You can't make money in any way, even donations of any kind, using a freeware licence.

ANY kind of money you get from the game through any method would be classed as being used for commercial purposes, no matter how you would like to think of it.

EDIT:
What you could do if you really wanted to make an MMO is create the entire game under a freeware licence, use the public to test it (FOR FREE, BETA), then when you are ready to start making money, buy the commercial licence and start charging people subscriptions or whatever.

Forum Thread

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programing maniac

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 15:34

hm... I was hopeing the donations would pay for the commercial licence

.

Well it isn't a huge problem, I think that is about fair, I mean, TGC probably put a lot into makeing darkGDK, and I guess it wouldn't be fair to make money but not buy the license.

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jason p sage

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 19:48

http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry

DarkGDK can be used for a ton of different game genre's, the performance is decent for games not requiring super super intense rendering processing or game power. In short - its easy to use, very capable, and trust me when I say it does A LOT of DirectX chores for you freeing you from tasks like transforms and other math wizardry.

It's definately worth the cash... even if you have to save up for it! I mean you spent hours upon hours (hopefully) having fun making your game, you learn a lot about games in general while you do it, and when you finally get around to releasing some commercial venture, you've been using this product for probably many monthes.

Furthermore, you buy the license one time - and make as many games as you can...

Cough up the dough - its worth it.

--Jason

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Sephnroth

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 19:54

being honest, and dont quote me on this because im not going to stand up in court and vouch for this, I dont think that TGC would have a huge problem with programing maniac's situation. Especially if you bought a commercial license a week after launching your game.

They arnt nazis, they just want to be treated fair. If you're going to make a ton of money off using their stuff then you need to buy the right license. If you're going to score 20 quid they probably wont even notice, let alone mind.

What I have a problem with is people intentionally trying to circemvent the license issues and find stupid "loop holes" and other crap in order to try and make money without paying any. I'm not even sure of the original posters intent - to boast or to draw attention to a possiable mistake - but it seems they intended to use the loop hole.

If you think your program is even remotely worth people paying for and that they will then you can afford the license, even if you have to borrow off grandma for the first week! And if its not good enough to sell then you dont need anything but the freeware license anyway. Its all a mute point - anyone with something sellable trying not to pay is just a poop.

DarkGDK/WinAPI Tutorial [Old - VC6]

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jason p sage

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Posted: 30th Jun 2008 20:06

http://www.jasonpetersage.com/?PAGE=ironinfantry&SECTION=ironinfantry

LOL - Amen!

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Zuka

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 04:02

I'm not trying to cheat them out of their money. I was suggesting a possible mistake, as Sephnroth said.

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Niels Henriksen

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 11:19

Zuka - I know you want to pay for it but maybe it will take some time to get the money.

But.... what TGC has made is "just" a wrapper for DirectX. You can make that by your self, but think about how long time you need to work to make the same... 1000 hours? 10.000 hours? Then the commercial license is VERY cheap

Niels Henriksen
www.tales-of-the-realms.com
if Microsoft can sell software with bugs, so can I.

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Bishop

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 13:06 Edited at: 1st Jul 2008 13:53

I can't believe we are even discussing this. Firstly, creating a commercial quality mmo cannot be done by a single person or even a small team. Throw flames, insults, and "nu-uhs!" at me if you like but this is a fact that the sooner you get through your head the better.

It's been repeated a thousand times and a thousand times again. MMO's require huge teams of dedicated, skilled professionals to create. Compound the resources required to pay a team of programmers, artists, designers, legal and technical staff, multiply it by the years it takes to create, then figure how many copies of the game need to be sold before you see a cent of profit. It's a lot.

Secondly, yes, it is possible to create an MMO in darlGDK. However, no offense to Lee nor to the Game Creators, it is far from optimal. Many programming companies use in house engines for a reason. DarkGDK is excellent as far as free engines go. I use it often. Optimal for developing a game on the scale of a competitive modern MMO? Absolutely not.

Quote: "being honest, and dont quote me on this because im not going to stand up in court and vouch for this, I dont think that TGC would have a huge problem with programing maniac's situation. Especially if you bought a commercial license a week after launching your game.

They arnt nazis, they just want to be treated fair. If you're going to make a ton of money off using their stuff then you need to buy the right license. If you're going to score 20 quid they probably wont even notice, let alone mind."

TGC would never allow such an obvious breach in contract, even for only a week unless you specifically made a new contract with them. Lee can pop in and contradict me, but otherwise this is why; if TGC did this, it would create what's called a "precedent". This means that, any time in the future is anyone wanted to do this, even if it was a minor breach in contract, the would be able to without TGC being able to do anything about it. such a Precedent would take away some control TGC has over their license. Allowing someone to blatantly breach their contract, however minutely, would be a legal disaster.

Feel free to contact them and request a special license, but other than that you're outta luck unless you want to bite the bullet and buy the license.

/rant

As far as the license issue goes, I would enjoy you attempting to use this "loophole" and watch TGC's legal division have a hey day. Enjoy.

Tux is my guildmaster.

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programing maniac

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 15:04

Well, Bishop, I believe you are right and wrong.

First of all, I am working with a team to make a MMOFPS, and it is only three people. You don't need millions of people to make an MMOFPS. I guess you would if you were having a P.S. 3 quality game, but if you can do that- you shouldn't be using darkGDK.

My team is actually almost done with the first version, we have physics, online play, the shooting system, and now we just need to put it together.

So I would say you are right about darkGDK, but I still think you can make good games that can be sold with it. I think that if you have the skill, you can make whatever you want with it.

Quote: "it would create what's called a "precedent"."

That is completely true, and I think if you really expect to make money with a game, maybe don't sell it the first version, and just see how well it does. If it does amazingly well and millions play it, buy the liscence, add some new features and sell it.

Quote: "Feel free to contact them and request a special license, but other than that you're outta luck unless you want to bite the bullet and buy the license.
"

isn't the liscence 50$ I can't remember, I am going to look it up again. But if it is only 50$, I am sure you can just get the liscence no problem and not have to ask for special ones or that stuff, I don't think it is THAT big of a hassle.

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Mahoney

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 20:03

It's $500, actually. Maybe $450.

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Mahoney

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 20:05

http://gdk.thegamecreators.com/?f=order

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programing maniac

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 20:08

oh........

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Mahoney

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Posted: 1st Jul 2008 20:10

Sorry. It's a lot more. Not worth getting unless you really think you'll make something off of it. I'd wait till farther down the road of your programming experience.

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Bishop

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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 08:27

Quote: "Well, Bishop, I believe you are right and wrong.

First of all, I am working with a team to make a MMOFPS, and it is only three people. You don't need millions of people to make an MMOFPS. I guess you would if you were having a P.S. 3 quality game, but if you can do that- you shouldn't be using darkGDK.

My team is actually almost done with the first version, we have physics, online play, the shooting system, and now we just need to put it together.

So I would say you are right about darkGDK, but I still think you can make good games that can be sold with it. I think that if you have the skill, you can make whatever you want with it."

Glad your having success! What I intended was, you cannot make a commercial quality modern mmo with a small team. I guess if you can get people to pay for it, it would be commercial quality. It's also the incredible amount of money needed to maintain servers and staff, not just the creation of the game.

Small time free/lowcost mmo? Definitely doable. Competitive modern MMO? Not seeing it =)

Cheers!

Tux is my guildmaster.

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programing maniac

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Posted: 2nd Jul 2008 14:57

Quote: "Glad your having success!"

Thanks.

Quote: " What I intended was, you cannot make a commercial quality modern mmo with a small team."

That too, IS possible, if you have a lot of time. I mean, if you have a small MMOFPS, then you just add to it, and add to it, it will become better and better. I guess if you want a game that is commercial quality in 1.5 years, then you need a LOT of people. But my team is just planning this to be a long term thing. we aren't expecting it to be GREAT by next week.

Quote: "It's also the incredible amount of money needed to maintain servers and staff, not just the creation of the game. "

You mean, also the incredible amount of money to buy the liscence for GDK

. And also, we are going to try to get some sort of deal with the game creators. We will say that we will sell the game, and once we make 500$, we will buy the liscence. But that is later when the game is ready to be sold to the public.
And for the servers and staff, I don't think we need many, we are all probably just going to make something for it so that we can watch what is going on with out doing much. Also, the server we are going to sell, in case you want to advertise things, you will be able to run the server and then when people play on your server, there will be a loading screen with your ads on it.

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Zuka

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Posted: 6th Jul 2008 05:17

I'm not going for World of Warcraft, quit the lecture.

I'm doing a simple (for now) MMOFPS, 128 people per server. Not at one time, I mean once you sign up for that server, it's the only server you can log in to.

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Niels Henriksen

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Posted: 7th Jul 2008 23:50

@Zuka - aaa... comon... dont be afraid... just make a now AoC, WoW or EVE

Niels Henriksen
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if Microsoft can sell software with bugs, so can I.

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Zuka

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Posted: 8th Jul 2008 00:52

Quote: " just make a now AoC, WoW or EVE"

But then I'd have to actually try!

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jezza

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Posted: 8th Jul 2008 09:30

128 isn't MMO, Thats just a MOFPS

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Zuka

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Posted: 8th Jul 2008 10:19

Not when there's 5+ servers. I guess...

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Bishop

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Posted: 9th Jul 2008 08:42

Quote: "That too, IS possible, if you have a lot of time. I mean, if you have a small MMOFPS, then you just add to it, and add to it, it will become better and better. I guess if you want a game that is commercial quality in 1.5 years, then you need a LOT of people. But my team is just planning this to be a long term thing. we aren't expecting it to be GREAT by next week."

Well mate, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Take an experienced MMO developing company, say EA Mythic, and see their progress. Warhammer Online, canceled in 2004 but relicensed in 2005 iirc, has been in development for 3 full years and is just now going into beta stages. 3 full years of a dedicated team of around 40 likely highly paid professional programmers, artists, and designers working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Now take a team of hobbiest programmers and artists. Being generous, maybe a team of 5 members and do the math. Unless you want to work on it for decades, I'd lose the idea and get on to a more realistic project =) No offense intended!

Quote: "I'm not going for World of Warcraft, quit the lecture.

I'm doing a simple (for now) MMOFPS, 128 people per server. Not at one time, I mean once you sign up for that server, it's the only server you can log in to."

Quote: "Not when there's 5+ servers. I guess..."

While there is no exact number of players that determines an MO- game or an MMO- game, I would certainly say this is MO class.

I'm growing weary of these discussions ='( Maybe it's just me and my old-timer, washed-out, apparently useless knowledge. I'm no pro-game developer, but I am graduating soon with a BSCS. Don't count for much these days =P

Tux is my guildmaster.

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Zuka

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Posted: 9th Jul 2008 21:33 Edited at: 9th Jul 2008 21:34

Bishop, how do you know that we're doing a game as high quality as that? Maybe we're doing a smaller scale game?

Here's my plan for FleetWars:

Download ship data from FTP.
Store the ship data in memory.
Make ship objects and fill their properties with the ship data.
DELETE the ship data files.
Connect to the server, download data about the player. Position things around the player according to the map data and the player's server-side position.
Download data from the server about other players, position their sprites accordingly.
Allow player to... play.
The player can use WASD to control their ship. It always stays in the center of the screen for them, and everything around them moves, to simulate the ship moving. They can chat with other people close to them, and use their long-range communications device to communicate one on one with other people further away.
On exit, the server saves the player's position. The server created a "player" object when the player joined the server, and kept that object updated with info from the player. This allows the player to just leave the game without signing out.

The server keeps .player files on the computer it's running on. These .player files are just .txt files with a different extension. These files contain everything about the player they're about - their username, what system they're in, where in that system, if they're docked with a station or something, their hull integrity, how much money they have, and their friends list.

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Mahoney

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Posted: 9th Jul 2008 21:40

On the topic of MMO's, Google is making one. Just thought I'd speak up.

http://www.lively.com/html/landing.html

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Zuka

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Posted: 9th Jul 2008 23:28

Uhh... LOL.

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programing maniac

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Posted: 9th Jul 2008 23:28

Quote: "On the topic of MMO's, Google is making one. Just thought I'd speak up."

Wow, I wound't think they would....

Quote: "Well mate, we're going to have to agree to disagree. Take an experienced MMO developing company, say EA Mythic, and see their progress. Warhammer Online, canceled in 2004 but relicensed in 2005 iirc, has been in development for 3 full years and is just now going into beta stages. 3 full years of a dedicated team of around 40 likely highly paid professional programmers, artists, and designers working 8 hours a day, 5 days a week.

Now take a team of hobbiest programmers and artists. Being generous, maybe a team of 5 members and do the math. Unless you want to work on it for decades, I'd lose the idea and get on to a more realistic project =) No offense intended!
"

That is a good point, and what I really mean, is that it won't be AS great as that, definetly not, but It is possible to Make a MMOPFS that is good quiality and good gameplay. In my game, there is no computer, so that makes it a lot easier.

www.globalwarfare.tk

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Zuka

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Posted: 9th Jul 2008 23:32

FleetWars will be easy. The only AI I'll have will be extremely simple. They just fly around randomly. When attacked, they use simple strategies, like fly in circles around the opponent.

Once I have my scripting engine running, I'll make them more complex.