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3 Dimensional Chat / Blender .x or .3ds texture

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SJH
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Posted: 25th May 2009 20:21
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Can blender export models with their texture(s) applied to them as .x files or .3ds files? If so how? And if not is there a way to acheive this method?
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Venge
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Posted: 25th May 2009 20:57
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I don't believe so, but as long as the model is UV-mapped, you can apply the texture to it in a separate program/engine.


Black procession through the narrow aisles/Another's gone for all to see
Near the site for one who lost his trials/Sleeping 'neath the ground is me
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SJH
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Posted: 25th May 2009 21:03
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about UV mapping, is there a way to get the UV map and then put it into another program like adobe photoshop and then making the textures? Oh and ps: so what you're saying is that if you assign the texture to the 3d model in blender as a UV mapped texture, and export it, the texture will follow?
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Venge
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Posted: 25th May 2009 21:14 Edited at: 25th May 2009 21:14
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Not sure I understand about the texture "following"? Do you mean it will be included in the .x file with the geometry? I don't think so, you'll just have to keep the texture file with the .x file in a folder or something. And yes, you can use programs like Photoshop for making textures from UV maps, although Blender contains some basic painting tools for painting directly on the model. Use this button

to export your UV layout to an image file for editing in a third-party program.


Black procession through the narrow aisles/Another's gone for all to see
Near the site for one who lost his trials/Sleeping 'neath the ground is me
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SJH
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Posted: 25th May 2009 21:34 Edited at: 25th May 2009 21:41
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When I export the UV map the thing is I have no idea where the map was exported to. How do I specify where to export the map or how do I know where it is?
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 25th May 2009 22:51
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Quote: "Can blender export models with their texture(s) applied to them as .x files or .3ds files? If so how? And if not is there a way to acheive this method?"


Generally if the model is UV-Mapped in Blender, and you export to .x, the model will be UV-Mapped ingame as long as the UV Image is in the same relative location to the .x file as it was to the .blend file. For example, if you keep your textures in the same folder as the model, you must do the same with the .x file, but if the texture was one folder up, and then in a folder called 'Textures', your media folder for the game must have the same structure, unless you manually change it by editing the .x file.


Quote: "When I export the UV map the thing is I have no idea where the map was exported to. How do I specify where to export the map or how do I know where it is?"


When you select Export UV Layout, a window should pop up that lets you change a few settings, when you click ok, one of your windows should change to a file browser which lets you select a filename and location. The image is not actually exported until you hit export in that window.







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SJH
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Posted: 26th May 2009 00:29 Edited at: 26th May 2009 00:32
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There are still some problems... You know what, I'm just going to put the UV with textures and the model into mediafire and if someone can can they please get the UV map to work, and if they do can they please tell me how or what I did wrong?

Here's the link for the blender model:
http://www.mediafire.com/?ydzx4mmr1wy

and the UV is attached to this message, just right click and click save.

If someone can, can they please make this UV map work with the model and teach me how or what I did wrong? Thanks

-SJH
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SJH
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Posted: 26th May 2009 01:37 Edited at: 26th May 2009 01:55
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Phosphoer, did you make the models for spaec potassium in blender? If so, did you UV map the textures onto the object, or did you assign the textures in blender and export it someway that the textures follow. (PS great work on Space Potassium, the astroids look amazing!) Anyways, if you made your models in blender, can you teach or tell me how you assigned sepperate textures to the same models (like the banana ship ) Oh, and are the astroids bumpmapped or did you use blender and blender's sculpt mode on a sphere and then assigned a texture and shader... either way, the graphics on space potassium look like one of todays play station 3 games (even though the models look cartoonish), esp. the third pic on your first post in the thread.
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 26th May 2009 02:59
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I think I'm going to write a tutorial on texturing in Blender. In the tutorial you will texture a cube, but you should be able to translate the skills to your sword I'll try to have it up in a couple hours. It should cover all of your questions ^^.

Quote: "Phosphoer, did you make the models for spaec potassium in blender? "


Yes, I made all the models and textures.

Quote: "If so, did you UV map the textures onto the object, or did you assign the textures in blender and export it someway that the textures follow."


I think you are a bit confused about textures in Blender. The material editor, along with the associated textures, have no impact on what is exported in a .x file. The only way to get a textured model in-game, is to UV-Map it in Blender. When you UV-Map a model and export it, the resulting .x file doesn't contain any information about the image. What it does contain, is information about how the model looks unwrapped, so that when you load an image to be displayed on it, the image fits nicely on to all the parts of the model, assuming the image was made with the UV layout in mind.

Quote: " (PS great work on Space Potassium, the astroids look amazing!)"

Thanks! I'm actually working on reviving the project since summer is coming up and I have more time.

Quote: "the graphics on space potassium look like one of todays play station 3 games"

Haha thanks, but I don't think I'd go that far. The asteroids are using a normal map, which is a bit different than a bumpmap, I'll explain how it works in the upcoming tutorial.

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SJH
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Posted: 26th May 2009 03:24 Edited at: 26th May 2009 05:07
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Thanks, and btw, I figured out about smart uv wrapping just a while ago, and it more fluently displays a UV mapp so that you can keep track of all the parts of a 3d model. I'm going to texture that and see if that works. Hope that tutorial comes out soon, a lot of us newbies on blender will desperatly need it . Ps, on the ships on ur pic http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v440/MasterChief54924/SpacePotassiumRevisted03.png did you normal map again or bump map, because the bumps that show up on this pic look different from the ones on the astroids. Ps, this pic is the one that to me looks like a XB360 or PS3 graphic thing. This is amazing!
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 26th May 2009 07:22
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Hello, I'm back. I've finished the tutorial, I unwrapped the space potassium ship just make it more interesting than a cube.

Link: http://www.thewonderemporium.com/Html/Tutorials/TexturingAndExporting.html

I totally forgot to include the bit about normal mapping, so here's the deal.

Bumpmapping is an older technique, which just involves a grey-scale image. Lighter areas looked 'raised' on the model, and dark areas were depressed, which helped to make a model look more detailed.

Normal mapping is far more advanced, because instead of simply representing how much to raise part of the model, you can move parts of the model in all three dimensions. This is why normal maps are 'rainbow' colored with red, green, and blue. Each color represents a different direction to offset pixels on the model by. This obviously creates a much more realistic affect, and is what is used in many games today.

The reason my space ships look so different from the asteroid is simply because the normal map shader I am using is different. The asteroid is a plain normal map shader, while the space ship shader includes a simple reflection of the environment as well( But not a reflection of in-game objects, it uses an environment map image to reflect ).

Hope the tutorial helps!

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SJH
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Posted: 27th May 2009 00:12 Edited at: 27th May 2009 00:57
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Wow, thanks Phosphoer! I realize what my a big problem in my UV mapping was, that I didn't use seams! I decided, in the end, to smart map everything, and actually it divided the object up well, but not well enough! And ps: are you telling me that the model in that awesome looking spaceship picture of yours is the same model as in the old game except with a different texture and normal mapping (and a shader)? If so, THAT IS AMAZING! To thing all the old games already made that can be remade just with a little hard work! Anyways, thanks for the explanation. I'm going through the tut. right now .
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 27th May 2009 00:51
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No problem, I've been meaning to get a tutorial section on my website for a while now anyway

Using seams is always going to be better than the smart unwrap tool. You'll always end up with something that is much easier to texture than if you had used the auto unwrap.

Quote: "are you telling me that the model in that awesome looking spaceship picture of yours is the same model as in the old game except with a different texture and normal mapping (and a shader)?"


Yep , same model. Only difference is the shader, and the normalmapping is actually counted as part of that shader. I used a single shader file for my spaceship model, which includes both normal mapping and reflection.

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SJH
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Posted: 27th May 2009 01:06 Edited at: 27th May 2009 03:55
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IN-CRED-I-BLE! Just to think, you make a prototype game with bad quality, and with some simple tweaking, it can be a final copy! Anyways, one, or I guess,two questions: 1.) Does the UV background that is unused have to be black, or any color that is different from the ones used for the textures. and 2.) how did you add a shader to it? Did you use Dark GDK, Dark BASIC Pro, Dark Shader, or another program, and for that matter, did you make the shader, get it with the program, or download it? Either way, Space Potassium is the best graphiced game I've seen made with blender models. Personally I think you should go beyond Space Potassium. With your knowledge of game programming, model making, and texturizing, you could a game worthy of a gaming console!

Oh yea, and I made a new UV that's better (the smart unwrap thing) and textured it and added it to the UV grid, but it still doesn't project to the render. Is there some way I have to make the new UV texture apply to the model after it is already applied to the UV grid (loaded the image of the texture)?
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SJH
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Posted: 27th May 2009 04:15 Edited at: 27th May 2009 04:18
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Dude, thanks for all the help! I figured out the UV map thing on the manuel and finished it all. There's a pic of my sword on this message (PS, I don't know how to use the image button on the message thing, am I supposed to upload it onto the internet and put a link for it?). I still need to work on UV wrapping, for it was complicated, to get the hang of using everything like seams. Otherwise, all I have left are shaders and bump/normal mapping to go over. Thanks for all the help people of this forum, esp. Phosphoer. oh, and btw, can you also make a tutorial about shading and bump/normal mapping, if it isn't asking too much? Thanks! (PS, the blender render has a bit too much lighting, that's why the textures look bright.
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SJH
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Posted: 27th May 2009 05:23
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I exported the model as a .x file and tried it out in dark shader, and for some reason the handle was stripped! Here's a messed up pic of the sword handle stripped (can't think of a better word) attatched to this message
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 27th May 2009 05:28
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Hey looks nice! Well done.

I am definitely not a shader guru, but I can make a quick tutorial about how I accomplished the look. I'll post back here when it's up.

About the UV Background, it's generally a good idea for the background to be a similar color/pattern as the textures. You shouldn't see the background on the model, but on the event that there are a few edges, you want them to be as unnoticeable as possible.

Space Potassium( The most recent one ) is written in DarkGDK. I forget exactly where I got the shader, some google searching led me to both a plain normal map shader, and the same one but with reflectivity. I attached the shader I used for the blue ship, if you want to use it you'll have to edit the values in it. In my upcoming tutorial I'll try to touch a bit on doing editing on the .fx files.

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Phosphoer
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Posted: 27th May 2009 05:29
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Quote: "I exported the model as a .x file and tried it out in dark shader, and for some reason the handle was stripped! "


Your handle's normals are messed up. Select all the vertices in blender, and press ctrl-n->recalculate all.

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SJH
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Posted: 27th May 2009 05:39 Edited at: 27th May 2009 05:46
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I did what you said about the handle, and it still looked all stripped up. Maybe its just the program, let me try importing it into another thing and seeing if that works. Thanks for the advice though. Thanks for the complement, too! And I hope that turorial comes out soon. The last tutorial you made came out fast! In like a single day!

EDIT For the most when I imported the object into another program, the texture didn't follow and the model looked completely black. However, there were no strips on the handle, and this is good because in DarkSHADER the object also didn't have a shader but did have the strips, after I did what you said about the objects normals. I just think it might be the program now.
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 27th May 2009 06:50
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I downloaded the model that you posted near the beginning, and assuming you didn't fix that already, it is definitely a normals problem.

I know the DirectX exporter has been reported as having problems exporting changes if you don't close blender and re-open it. Try re-calculating the normals ( for the entire sword ), saving, closing Blender and re-opening. Then export to DirectX. Also, delete the original .x file, because I'm not sure if the exporter can deal with replacing files.

Here's a quick how-to on normal fixing, just to be sure you aren't missing a step.




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Phosphoer
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Posted: 27th May 2009 08:23
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This one was quick ^^.

Here's a link to the new shader tutorial: http://www.thewonderemporium.com/Html/Tutorials/UsingShaders.html

This tutorial writing is pretty fun

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SJH
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Posted: 28th May 2009 01:13
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Thanks Phosphoer! The whole time I've used blender and, there sometimes appears those weird lines, and I'm like, is this a glitch? Now I know the normals are messed! Thanks a bunch! And thanks for the shader tutorial. About the normal shader thing: did you make the shader in gimp? I mean, you use a 2d program to make shaders? I honestly never knew that ^^. So, two questions: 1.)does this mean that you can make shaders in any 2d image creating program, and 2.) can I use photoshop instead of gimp? PS: Phosphoer, I'm serious, you should go beyond Space Potassium, I mean its awesome and all, but think of what a person like you with this knowledge of awesome programing, modeling, texturing, shading, and all that, can do! If I were you I would try my hand at an online FPS game, like up to a maximum of 16 people, doing awesome stuff. Kind of like space potassium, but with a wider range of stuff to do. Anyways, thanks for all the help so far!
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 28th May 2009 03:47
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Quote: " did you make the shader in gimp? I mean, you use a 2d program to make shaders?"


No no, shaders are not made in 2d programs. The images which the shader uses, are painted in a 2d program. A shader is like a program or function, and it takes these images as input, among other things, and returns a value. This returned value creates the effect that you see on the model, in this case, shiny metal with bumps. You can create shaders with any kind of text editor, and there are also special programs ( Dark Shader, FX Composer, etc ) which make the creation of shaders easier. Think of Dark Shader like Adobe Dreamweaver is to HTML.

As for Photoshop, you can use it to make your textures sure, I believe it has some sort of normal map generator plugin which you can use to achieve the same effect that I got in GIMP. In fact I think that the normal map plugin in GIMP is an attempt to reproduce the Photoshop plugin, so you should be set for that.

Also, if you create a high poly version of your model, and create the bumps and wrinkles that you want in the actual geometry, Blender has a function to render out a normal map onto the model's UV Map, which you can then apply to your low-poly version.

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SJH
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Posted: 28th May 2009 05:00
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Ok, I get it. Now there's something annoying now in blender. I use make the normals.. normal... again, and then I render an image, and right before I know it, the normals are messed up again. I did hte control n thing, and then remade the UV map the same way Idid before, and as it turned out, the UV map was made with the messed up normals, and with each render, the messed up normals were applied to the object again. I think its time to remake the UV map . Anyways, thanks for the help, I understand that shaders use textures, and after analyzing what you said a few hundred times I thought, do I have to learn a shader language, and the obvious answer was: yes. I have one question: is the language hard to learn? I mean, you said yourself that you're no guru, but is it that confusing to you, or do you mean that you're just to lazy or preoccupied with other things to actaully learn the language? Anyways, I tried remaking the UV map, but as I used different objects in the mesh in the sword model, it was pretty hard to use seams, so I decided to completely remake the sword as one entire object; all the vertices connect to make one mesh. Its actually quite easy (for the sword mesh is simple and extremely easy to make). Making the handle and the hilt of the sword were the hard parts, but I re arranged and made new faces on the hilts top face so that it can be extruded to make the blade. In other words: I'm on the easy part now, for the blade uses a lot less vertices . Anyways, one last question: are you still working on Space Potassium? I mean if you are then I am definantly getting Space Potassium 2; the graphics are awesome and the gameplay looks rather fun .
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 28th May 2009 05:17
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Quote: "I use make the normals.. normal... again, and then I render an image, and right before I know it, the normals are messed up again"


That seems very strange, can you post the .blend?

Quote: "do I have to learn a shader language, and the obvious answer was: yes. I have one question: is the language hard to learn?"


You only have to learn the language if you want to write shaders yourself in a text editor. Although it would be helpful, you don't necessarily need to know the language to use something like Dark Shader to create nice-looking shaders. As far as whether it's hard to learn, I imagine it's not overly difficult. I really haven't even tried to learn it. When I need a shader, I just search for a free shader that does about what I want, and sometimes I'm able to successfully make some small changes if need be.


Quote: "Anyways, I tried remaking the UV map, but as I used different objects in the mesh in the sword model, it was pretty hard to use seams, so I decided to completely remake the sword as one entire object; all the vertices connect to make one mesh. "


You shouldn't need to re-make the whole model, although I will say that the handle on your sword was far too high-poly. I generally find it easier to unwrap if the model is composed of multiple pieces, but it depends on the model really.

Quote: "are you still working on Space Potassium?"

On and off, I'm hoping to re-vitalize the project fairly soon, but I keep getting distracted with other little projects. I will release a demo when I feel there is enough content to be interesting. At the moment, it's pretty much just a sandbox. Neither team can win yet, and the big banana ship hasn't been fully implemented. Also I haven't re-made the outposts that were in Space Potassium 2(1?). The naming is a little confusing, this should really be Space Potassium 3, because the real first one was a 2d game.

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SJH
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Posted: 28th May 2009 05:23 Edited at: 28th May 2009 06:25
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Quote: "That seems very strange, can you post the .blend?"

Here's the link to it on Mediafire: http://www.mediafire.com/?hh4kmiddzxf. I think I know the problem: I unwraped the UV map before you told me to recalculate the normals, and without remembering this vital fact, went on and made the UV. When I tried to recalculate the normals and then UV unwrap the model, the UV map looked about 70% the same as the other, except certain islands in the UV map were now a part of other parts of the sword. So everytime I render the object, the texture with the UV map with the uncalculated normals is applied to the mesh again, and the meshes normals are re messed up... again. I know it would be easier to just remake the UV and then make the new texture, but I decided to entirely make the sword again, just because I already started the model and am like 60% done modeling, so I decided to just finish it, as it looks better than the first model . Anyways, about modeling a single mesh versus modeling a single mesh with certain objects (like going into edit mode for an object and then loading new meshes in there, and then back in object mode all the meshes are grouped as a single mesh). Will UV mapping be messed up if I use multiple objects in a single mesh, or is it ok and I just have to be very careful about where I put the seams for unwrapping and then rearranging the islands in the new UV map to my specifications. This, I think, is a very important fact to know. To make a Large story short: in all of your models, do they use a single object for the mesh, or mupltiple objects for the mesh. If they do then that still leaves a question to answer, but if they do, I guess that the multiple object in a mesh plan is a go (for MANY of my future models would use several objects in a single mesh, so it would be hard to make it all as one). If I sound to confusing because I repeat the same thing a few hundred times and that just confuses you, please feel free to ask me to make it simpler to understand, because I am very desperate about this particular question .

EDIT: I'm done remaking the sword that is entirely one mesh (one mesh inside the edit mode for another mesh; all the vertices connect to make one mesh), and I used seams to make the new UV, and I cannot beleive how easy it is to texture it! it is so organaized and easy to use! Anyways, since no one has answered the question yet, I'll ask again: since this sword is entirely one mesh, and the other sword I posted on this thread is several meshes in the edit mode for a single mesh, I think that UV mapping is easier/possible with a mesh with only one object in its edit mode. Can UV mapping occur with several meshes inside the same edit mode (like adding seams on certain places then moving the islands around until everything is organized)? Anyways, I still can't beleive how easy UV mapping is now! Before I thought it would be torture to make a single you, and now I realize its simple! Go figure (ps, I use a lot because its my favorite smiley!)
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 28th May 2009 07:35
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I figured out what was wrong with other other model. You had multi-res enabled, which seems to undo the normal changes upon the render.

Quote: " Can UV mapping occur with several meshes inside the same edit mode"


Oh yeah definitely, I've used multiple meshes in the past, it's not really any different. I think it's almost easier depending on the mesh. You can use the 'l' key to select single meshes, both in the UV window and in the 3d window, which will help you move the parts around. Just use seams as you would normally, and when you unwrap it should work fine. I know a lot of commercial models are actually made up of multiple parts, especially before bone-animation.

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SJH
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Posted: 29th May 2009 00:13
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Oh thank god! This is going to make modeling so much easier! Now I'm relaxed a lot more... Anyways, about the multi res enabled thing... First of all is multi-res a bad thing? and second of all how do I disable it? Still feeling happy about the good news
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 29th May 2009 01:20
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Multi-res is similar to subsurf. You can use it to have different levels of detail on your model. Not a bad thing, it's most commonly used for sculpting. To get rid of it, click Apply Multi Res when 'levels' are set to 1.

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SJH
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Posted: 29th May 2009 02:56
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Iu nderstand how to turn multi rest off, but I can't find the tab for it! Its not in the modifier sectino or multries section... I know how to turn it off, but WHERE I do is the real question.
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 29th May 2009 04:02
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This is where it is for me.



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SJH
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Posted: 29th May 2009 04:15
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Phosphoer, you're a life saver! I did make and texture the other sword, and everything went well on that except that I couldn't get the blade to show the faces better (probably since the blade is arranged differently than the first one) and I especially had no idea how I made the hilt look like solid gold. When I textured it, I made it as dull, scratchy looking hold, but I guess the lighting made it a solid and nice gold. I want to make more textures like this, but alas, I don't know how. Oh well, how hard can it be, and besides I won't need to figure it out until I actually need it. Anyways, I looked at the multries at first, and thought there was nothing there, but than I saw a little bar below the add multries button. That's when I realized "Ohhhhh...." and clicked apply, and right before you know it the normals don't go screwy anymore . Thanks a lot, it would have been deadly difficult to remake the sword and especially the texture effects that I am trying to figure out . Thanks for all the help. First I think I'll have some more practice with modeling and UV mapping and texturing and seams and all that, and then I'll move on to shaders. First, let me get this straight: when you export a model that has a UV map that you assigned a texture to as any type of file, the texture won't follow the model but the UV map will, and as long as you enabled texturing though UV mapping in the 3d modeling software, you can apply the UV texture in any program and the UV mapping will still occur:
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 29th May 2009 06:12
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No problem

Quote: "First, let me get this straight: when you export a model that has a UV map that you assigned a texture to as any type of file, the texture won't follow the model but the UV map will, and as long as you enabled texturing though UV mapping in the 3d modeling software, you can apply the UV texture in any program and the UV mapping will still occur:"


When you export a UV Mapped model, the file will contain the model's UV coordinates ( Assuming the exporter supports this ).

The image is not exported, or contained in this file in any way. In order to see your image on your model, you need to have both the model file, and the image file in the same directory.

If you load the model file into any other 3d software, you will still be able to see the UV map.

That clear things up?

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SJH
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Posted: 29th May 2009 06:51
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Yup ^^! What I didn't do was keep the image and the file within the same directory. That certainly helps .Thanks.
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Posted: 30th May 2009 22:51 Edited at: 30th May 2009 22:55
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Ok, I just finished a combat knife. I'm probably going to change the texture of certain parts of the knife later, but for the mean time I'm going to show you the picture. Its attatched to this message, (ps, to use the image button do I need to load the image onto the internet and then give the url?) Anyways, thanks phosphoer, I couldn't have done it without you. (Well, I could have, but it would have taken me such a long time that I probably would have given up). . Anyways, there is something wrong with the handle of the knife. And yes, I know the handle of the sword looks like metal, but the truth is the lighting on the handle that gives it some shadows to make it look metalic. I'll fix that later, right now I'm just happy that I was able to make the knife in a little amount of time .
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 30th May 2009 23:17
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Hey that's pretty nice looking The handle does look a little strange. I assume this isn't a game model? The serration looks quite high poly, although it is really nice.

To use the image button you should upload your image to a hosting site like Photobucket, and then put the URL in between the img tags.

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Posted: 31st May 2009 01:28 Edited at: 31st May 2009 01:37
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Thanks Phosphoer. To tell you the truth, at first I was thinking of using it in a game, but than I decided, nah, for these 3D models are just practice. And to tell you the truth, The knife isn't as high poly as you think. The handle, I'm assuming, is the one giving you you're opinion. In reality, its not high poly, its smoothed, (as in I didn't subsurf). To tell you the truth I still don't have the grasp of high and low poly. Actually, what I was planning on doing, was getting a software such as Action 3D from the game creatores to lower the poly count. One more thing, I just want to know that I'm right but, when I took an ordinary cube and sphere and added set smooth to them, I noticed that the model didn't turn anything smoothed, it just introduced the model a to better lighting, which gave it the illusion of looking smooth. Am I right about this, because there is a big deal about high and low poly. Anyways, I don't think the poly count will be a problem if I use programs such as Action 3d, for when I mathematically converted the amount of verticies into faces about that bug model on the Action 3d game creator page, there was a poly loss of over 4000 faces, yet the model still looked great. I'm thinking if this can be acheived with such a program, then I can lower the poly count for varios models. One thing that disturbs me is a question: Great games (such as Halo, Call of Duty, or the Metal Gear Series) have used high poly models. Am I right in assumming this, or do they make the model and then use some program such as action 3D to lower the poly count as much as they can and then adding it to a gaming console such as the play station 3 or the x box 360 that have specially made hard drives that have no cluttering but game data, compared to a computer which has a stronger harddrive but a much more cluttered one. Anyways, I'm going to make a few many things first, and then I'm going to make in-game models. About photobucket, I'll sign up for that later, for I am far to busy right now with other things. Summer sounds like a good time to get back on track. Oh, and one last thing, the knife isn't that high poly as you might think. If the handle is giving you this impression, than I just used the set smooth option to turn the faces into smooth round ones with the illusion. Honestly, give me your opinion. Since you downloaded my sword model, I'm assuming you've checked it out already. Do you think that sword is high poly, and If I made more models with the same quality of this one that the game I use them in will lag like crazy? If so, I'll try to do somthing about that, but on a different note, I'm going to save up for 3ds max. the interface seems a lot simpler, but that doesn't mean I WILL get it, all I'm implying is that I might, for it looks simpler and better to use. For the time being, I'll use blender, and If I get the hang of it and think the interface is easy (for I hope I do ) then I'll stick with blender. One thing I find interesting is that blender is as good as a modeler as 3ds max, and it doesn't even cost anything! The interfaces is the only thing that divides them: 3ds max is easier to use. I dunno, maybe if I find it easy I won't even want 3ds Max. But anyways, on another note, can you give me you're opinion on high poly models that can make a game lag (And for that matter how to figure out how many polygons a figure has in blender, as in a poly count).
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 31st May 2009 02:43
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The thing to remember about poly count in most 3d apps, is that game engines convert all polys into triangles, so if your model is made using four-sided polys ( recommended ), you will need to convert it into tri's ( ctrl-t in Blender ) to see what the real poly count is.


Quote: "The knife isn't as high poly as you think. The handle, I'm assuming, is the one giving you you're opinion."


Quote: "The serration looks quite high poly"

Serration is the jagged bit on top of the knife ><


Quote: " One more thing, I just want to know that I'm right but, when I took an ordinary cube and sphere and added set smooth to them, I noticed that the model didn't turn anything smoothed"


'Set Smooth' in Blender has no effect on poly count, nor does it have any effect on the exported model. All it does is change the way Blender renders faces on the model to make it look smoother instead of the default faceted look. If you want to actually affect the geometry, you can use 'Smooth' in edit mode, or Subsurf. Smooth will not add geometry, but moves vertices around to reduce corners. Subsurf divides all the polys in two, and also smooths out corners.

Quote: "One thing that disturbs me is a question: Great games (such as Halo, Call of Duty, or the Metal Gear Series) have used high poly models. Am I right in assumming this, or do they make the model and then use some program such as action 3D to lower the poly count"


3d models used in games will, and always will be, as low-poly as the developer can manage while still achieving the desired quality. 3d content in large commercial games such as the ones you mentioned often looks quite high poly, but much of the detail you see is achieved through tricks like normal maps and quality textures. And why does this disturb you? O.o

Quote: "Oh, and one last thing, the knife isn't that high poly as you might think."


Think you might have mentioned that already.

Quote: "One thing I find interesting is that blender is as good as a modeler as 3ds max, and it doesn't even cost anything!"


This is why open-source is excellent, and also why the industry standard 3d apps aren't worth the money.

Quote: "But anyways, on another note, can you give me you're opinion on high poly models that can make a game lag "


It really depends entirely on the computer the game is being played on, and the 3d engine in use. All I can say is to keep the poly count as low as possible. I believe a standard character ( not DirectX 10 ), can be around 3000 polys without slowing things down. But again, it really depends on how you will be using the character, how many characters will be rendered at one time, etc. Obviuosly a single unit in an RTS is going to need to have less polys than a main character in an RPG.

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Posted: 31st May 2009 04:39 Edited at: 31st May 2009 04:43
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Thanks for the tip about figuring out the poly amount ^^
Quote: "Serration is the jagged bit on top of the knife ><"

Oh sorry I must have read a bit too fast and skipped a few words . And anyways I honesly didn't know what serration was, thanks for telling!
Quote: "'Set Smooth' in Blender has no effect on poly count, nor does it have any effect on the exported model. All it does is change the way Blender renders faces on the model to make it look smoother instead of the default faceted look. If you want to actually affect the geometry, you can use 'Smooth' in edit mode, or Subsurf. Smooth will not add geometry, but moves vertices around to reduce corners. Subsurf divides all the polys in two, and also smooths out corners."

Oh, thanks
Quote: "Think you might have mentioned that already."

Yea when I said that I had the strangest feeling of dejavu

Quote: "This is why open-source is excellent, and also why the industry standard 3d apps aren't worth the money."

I completely agree with you! There are only a few things they need to add in the upgraded versions of blender and blender will officially be just as good/better than industrial 3d design softwars!
Quote: "I believe a standard character ( not DirectX 10 ), can be around 3000 polys without slowing things down."
If you observe in the rendered combat knife picture the render window says there are about 2000 faces in the model, and assuming that by character you mean each 3d model, than I think I'm covered for that. However, when I took your advice about making all the faces triangular, the poly count went up to about 3600. Lol, will that be fine? And last...
Quote: "3d models used in games will, and always will be, as low-poly as the developer can manage while still achieving the desired quality. 3d content in large commercial games such as the ones you mentioned often looks quite high poly, but much of the detail you see is achieved through tricks like normal maps and quality textures. And why does this disturb you? O.o"
Oh thank god. To tell you the truth I have a dream of making a game with 3d models and textures as good as some of the greatest games out there, and the fact that this might not be possible with someone like me disturbed me a bit, but now that you told me it is possible (very, very hard) but possible, this eases my pressure by a mile!
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 31st May 2009 09:57 Edited at: 31st May 2009 10:00
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Quote: "If you observe in the rendered combat knife picture the render window says there are about 2000 faces in the model, and assuming that by character you mean each 3d model, than I think I'm covered for that."


Actually, by character, I did mean character, as in a character in the game. Not a prop.

Quote: "However, when I took your advice about making all the faces triangular, the poly count went up to about 3600"


Of course it did, all the squares were divided into triangles, my entire point was that you have to plan for the game engine converting the model into triangles when you load it. Your knife is really 3600 polys, not 2000. Even if you didn't convert to triangles in Blender, Dark Basic will still convert it to triangles anyway when you load it, just try viewing the wireframe of the model displayed in Dark Basic

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Posted: 31st May 2009 19:00 Edited at: 31st May 2009 19:40
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Ok, I get ya. About the character thing though: Would you coun't the character holding a prop as part of the 3000, or just the character up to 3000 and the prop with a different limit depending on its size and accuracy. I understand about the character poly limit, but what about a prop the size of a knife, a sword, and a staff. One thing that confuses me a bit is how many characters and props someone can have in a level, and for that matter how many levels in a game. I think I'm asking too much, so I'll try to figure it out by my own, for it does depend on the computers accuracy to play the game without lagging like crazy. By the way, I know this is the wrong message board, but since like you said dark GDK is like DBP except with a db before the commands, how do you UV texture an object in GDK or DBP. I exported the sword and saves the UV texture in the same folder as the sword, and when I loaded the model, then the image, and than told the program to texture the "object 1, 1" as it told me to do for object number and image number, not only did the texture not show up, but there was no texture at all. The model still stayed a blank white model with the same green background, and thats when I got confused. Anyways, my main concern is the poly count a game can take, the poly count a level can take in the game, and how many levels I can have in the game, (unless you call the game to load the new level each time so the poly count doesn't just repeadetaly go up). And I can't remember if I said this before, but I'm considering making the knife an in-game model by taking out the seration and replacing it with the smooth light and sharper part on the edge of the blade, or even just take out the whole seration. I dunno, but either way, I still have to figure out the problem with the knive's handle and for that matter the blades texture line thing... If you look at the knife about in the middle there's a crease between textures, and I think it's because of the UV textures texture positioning, so I'll fix that, and make the rest of the textures for the knife first.
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Posted: 31st May 2009 22:36 Edited at: 31st May 2009 22:38
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Ok, I finished the knife. I tried my best at imagining what colors would go best with the knife's parts, but I'm not the most imaginative guy around, so if you have any suggestions about the knive's colors please feel free to tell. Also, if you think there are any improvements I should make or anything that looks wrong, don't hesitate to tell.
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 04:01
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I just made that, it is 367 polys (triangles). That should give you an idea of how many polys something like a knife should have.

Quote: "not only did the texture not show up, but there was no texture at all."


Can you attach the knife model and the texture for me to test?

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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 04:11 Edited at: 1st Jun 2009 05:22
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Ok. Both are on media fire. Here's the blender model of the knife: http://www.mediafire.com/?3nhqm0x2idj and here's the link for the texture url: http://www.mediafire.com/file/zzczlzmzkzn/ (Edit:ps sometimes when I load and image with the file name in the sharing url, the link won't show in the message but if you copy-paste it into a browser it should work fine, so for the moment I tried deleting the file name from the URL EndEdit). Tell me if the image URL doesn't work, I was confused a little about the sharing url for that. Also, I just want to test something:
Hey, cool! I didn't know pictures loaded onto media fire would have their own image adresses! At least I have solved the image issue of mine ^^ (though the image does look a bit blurry - I'll just get a photobucket account later). Though just a tip and a question. The tip is on the knife the top of the blade looks round, when it should be flat, and the handle sphere things should be a little more smoother. Though that is quite 360 polys on that knife. And the question is about how you made the knife. Is it all one mesh, or a few meshes inside the edit mode of the knives overall mesh? I think the answer to that makes a difference. Also, I think the serattion would account for the most of the polys, so later, (as in the next weekend) I'll take the knife and remove the seration, and than tell you about the poly count. I'm guessing still that the poly count will be around 1500-2000 or so if I do remove the seration, so if that happens I'll just take screen shots of the knive's side view and front view, and then use those images as image backgrounds and remake the exact same knife except with a (what I suppose to be startling) low polycount of triangles, (or at least a lot lower). EDIT: I just took another close look at my model, and stupid me, I realized the handle was a big contributer to the poly count (It accounted for about 1600 of the 3600 polys!). That, and the seration accounted for another 1500 polys, so when I deleted them both (I just deleted them to see the poly count and then undid them via ctrl+z back) the poly count went from 3590 polys (all triangular) to 578! All I did was delete the seration and the handle, and about 3000 of the polys were deleted. (Lol, I assume I should make more practice 3d models to get the hang of using as low a poly count as I can ). I didn't notice that the handle would have a high poly count until I was going through the knife's edit mode to look at the seration, when I realized that the handle had too many lines (faces) from the triangulation of the faces. Instead, next weekend I'll just remove the handle and seration permanantly, edit the blades mesh to cover the seration's location (after I delete it), and make a new handle, somewhat like yours except a bit smoother. I'm still a bit surprised about the handles poly count being higher than the seration . Oh well, and thanks for the intel about the poly count of a normal knife! At least now I have a grasp (somewhat) on a good poly count. And also: your knife is missing some of the key points in my knife... actually one of it. The edge of the blade. That sharp part is what makes the knife look kind of nice, you should add that and it shouldn't account for more than 30-100 faces/triangle polies. and also again, I'm not saying your knife is bad, actually I'm assuming you made that knife by looking off of mine. Thats actually great work for that, for my knife was modeled after an m-9 bayonet. I found a picture of it on the internet, saves it, and used it as a background image in blender to trace the knife by. That is why the sword and the knife have different qualities: the knife was traced while the sword was just my imagination, which is why the knife's quality looks better. That's also where the seration came from. I assume that without the seration the knife will still look good, not as great, but good . I'll also try to fix up the blade a little to remove a portions of the polies, so my goal is to get the knife to a poly count of 300-700 polies. And also also also, I'm starting to see signs about what you said that professional games use as low poly as posssible. When I think about it, I don't see seration on knives or anything that looks like it uses many faces. And that when I realized you were also right about the normal and bump mapping thing. If you take a game like halo, you can see parts of the game that use bump or normal mapping that make the objects in the game look quite high poly. I feel calm, but I can't do ANYTHING until the next weekend, when I'm not that busy. And lastly, about the texture not loading in dbp, all I did was
There were other lines of code in the program, and the program ran just fine. Everything worked except the swords texture, so I'm assuming this is something wrong in the code. PS, I remembered I have the dark game studio dvd and decided to download GDK, for I knew that sometime (of course, not any time soon) but sometime, will use it, and there was an error in registering the c++ express thing. I sent an email, they'll respond with the answer, and all that. I'm just the type of person that likes having everything before hand, instead of get everything when you need it (for sometimes I can be very, VERY forgetfull). Dang I can talk, and one last question: when you open the UV editor in blender, is there any way to make the editor grid thing bigger along with the UV mapped meshes (the meshes I can just scale, its the editor I'm curious about).
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Phosphoer
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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 07:24
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Generally things like the inset on the blade of the knife, and the serration, would be accomplished with textures.

Quote: "is there any way to make the editor grid thing bigger along with the UV mapped meshes"


Zoom in and out? Mousewheel.

Quote: "Is it all one mesh, or a few meshes inside the edit mode of the knives overall mesh?"


The blade, the hilt, the handle, and the pommel are all different meshes.

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Posted: 1st Jun 2009 21:57 Edited at: 1st Jun 2009 21:58
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So I took a look at your model, and it has a lot of issues that need to be worked out. It has tons of unnecessary polys, and a lot of weird problems with the mesh. I was able to recreate nearly the exact same knife with just 810 triangles. I didn't model the serration, because that would be accomplished with an alpha mapped plane.

These images point to some of the problems with your mesh. You had a lot of subdivision that didn't add any detail.







I'm not sure what you did here, but the mesh was very messy.



Your UV map shouldn't look like this. The big blue square in the background means that there are parts of the mesh which haven't been unwrapped.



Here is my re-creation of your knife with a cleaner mesh. Notice how all the polys add detail of some sort, barely any of them go to waste. In your mesh, there were many places where there were a lot of polys on a flat plane, which is pointless.



Because of the cleaner mesh, this model will be much easier to unwrap and texture, not to mention that it will have far less effect on a game's framerate.

I will unwrap the knife and upload the model for you

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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 00:52
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First message: When I ment make the grid bigger, I meant like make the surface area of the grid larger, not zoom in and out .

Second message: To be frank with you I have no idea what those extra faces are doing there, it might ahve something to do with this being one of my first models and the triamgulating faces thing... (if you keep clicking the ctrl+t will the faces divide even more each time? Like subdividing?) Lol, I'm not sure what those faces are doing there either. Anyways, next, by overlapping faces, do you mean that I have two of the same face on the same spot? I have absolutely no idea how that happened. And last, your model of the knife is amazing! How did you clear up all the extra faces so fast? Did you just delete them? Or did you litarally re-create the knife? (If you deleted them, can you please teach me how? Everytime I delete I delete an edge, the program deletes the face unless its not a triangle...) Bottom line can you tell/teach me how you made the model with so much less polys. And just for a very good example, you should have a picture of the old model with a billion polies, and the new model with a lot less polies, and then a comparison of the amount of faces... That, plus the fact of how you reduced the poly count so drastically, would help a lot . And just out of curiosity, you seem like a realy good expert in blender, how long have you been using it? (Or at least how long have you been making 3D models?) I'm still astonished at how fast you cleared the model! (Ps, about the UV mapped thing, the background face thing is not in mine...
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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 01:14 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 03:58
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Quote: "First message: When I ment make the grid bigger, I meant like make the surface area of the grid larger, not zoom in and out . "


You can't, and there is no reason to make it bigger. The UV area will autoscale to the size of the image you are using. Until you load an image, the UV area has no real 'size', it is just proportional.

Quote: "if you keep clicking the ctrl+t will the faces divide even more each time? "


Nope. All it does is divide each 4 sided poly into 2 triangles. If it is already a triangle, nothing happens.

Quote: "How did you clear up all the extra faces so fast? Did you just delete them? Or did you litarally re-create the knife?"


I just re-made it from scratch, using yours as a reference for shape. Yours was pretty much beyond repair. Perhaps the next tutorial I make will be a modeling tutorial

Quote: "And just out of curiosity, you seem like a really good expert in blender, how long have you been using it?"


Thanks ^^, I've been using Blender for about 6 years. If you stick to it, using the hotkeys and navigating the menu's will become second nature :p I probably couldn't tell you all the buttons I press when I'm modeling, but my mind knows where the keys are lol.

Here's the completed knife, download is attached.
Study the geometry and the unwrapping, you'll get the hang of it.



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Posted: 2nd Jun 2009 03:08 Edited at: 2nd Jun 2009 03:32
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Wow, you're knife is way better than mine. I took your advice about studying the geometry, and now I see there are a lot of keypoints in your design. First of all, I see that most of your meshes are made form either a cube or a face extracted. I can see that extracting is a major part of modeling. I used extracting for the most of my model of the knife, but as you can see and compared to your model of the knife that I serisouly used extracting very unwisely O.o. Since I agree that I need more practice, I'm going to try to remake the knife myself, and use your method. Also, I see that the seration is also a stretched out plane. Are you planning on texturing the seration with alpha on the unused spots? And speaking of texturing, did you use a UV texture? If so two things: first: the UV didn't show up in my uv window. It had your image under the loading bar, but for some reason the image didn't show in the UV editor and does show in the model, and for that matter the only texture in the texture editor is "clouds"... How did you texture your model (unless it's already in your texture tutorial, then I'll just go check it out there). Either way, the way you textured is starnge, seing as the texture still shows up (the colors at least do) when I go into solid mode, and how the model looks purple-pink when I'm in shaded mode... Also, does the knife use some normal mapping on the handle? I noticed the handle looks a bit strange, but also very interesting. Anyways, my main problem is your texturing, I have no idea what you did or how to analyze it... but the modeling is superb. I'm going to try to remake my model as practice, as I said before, and then I'm going to put my hand in modeling objects that are not all violent, like a play station 3 or x box 360 controller. PS, thanks for all the work you're doing to help me understand . Oh yeah and when I turned your model into a triangle-poly mesh, it went from 398 to 796 faces. I'm assuming that this is a nice amount of faces for something as this knife . Lastly, wow, six years! No wonder you're such a pro! I only started now and compared to you, feel like lower than a novice! I feel like someone completely introduced to the subject. (PSS, I checked the images for normal mapping and stuff, and to me they're just images. Is that realy what normal mapping is about? making images and than the computer uses the dark and lighter colors of the image to calculate a bump like shader? I all lookes interesting, but honestly I don't think I'm ready to use shaders until I've mastered (or at least gotten the hang of) modeling and texturing. Especially texturing actually... My uv textures, as I assume you've downloaded and seen, are all blocks of textures. Should I make mine like yours, when you trace the the parts of the image that were seams in the model, and then texturing like that? And if you don't mind me asking, how do you trace it? Do you use something like the polygon tool or the magic wand tool to get the outline, and then you make an accurate UV? (PSSS, I have dark matter pack 1, and in that it shows the model and the UV map of the model, and they were made like yours ). I suppose I should start making UV models like that... Lastly (I think) what does the "clouds" texture do in your model? Is it kind of like mine (I render a clouds filter onto my textures and then I add it as a layer on top and then bring down its ocapacity so that the model looks more diverse and kind of rusty in certain spots. I suppose there are a lot of things I need to learn too before I make my first ACTUAL game, as in completely original and has lots of models and stuff . For the mean time I'm going to follow my schedule of working until summer, then I can work on these models a lot more, plus take up stuff like shading and normal mapping .
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Whoops, I changed the name of the diffuse texture so Blender didn't recognize it, I uploaded the fixed version for your download, or you can just fix it yourself. In the UV window, with the 'KnifeUV.png"=' thing selected, choose Image->Replace... and open KnifeDiffuse.png. That should fix it.

Quote: "Are you planning on texturing the seration with alpha on the unused spots?"


If I decided I wanted serration, yes, that's what I'd do.

Quote: "And speaking of texturing, did you use a UV texture?"


Yep

Quote: " Also, does the knife use some normal mapping on the handle?"


Sort of. The way I like to texture things sometimes is to use Blender's bake tool. It's basically a way of replicating the way your model looks rendered with materials, onto a UV map.

Assuming your model is already unwrapped, and you have created and assigned Blender materials to it, it is a good way to get a base texture going. I generally edit the texture a bit in GIMP to make refinements.

First you need to get your materials made and assigned.



Make sure your model is unwrapped, then create a new image for the render to bake to.


Since we will be baking the render output to the texture, render options actually matter. Ambient occlusion is a nice way to get even lighting.



Now we just select the object, and choose Render->Bake Render Meshes->Full Render



The UV window will begin rendering out the texture, and when that's done, go into textured mode and look at your model!



As you can see, it is nearly indistinguishable from the actual render:



I'll compile this little post into a real tutorial later ^^.

Quote: "Should I make mine like yours, when you trace the the parts of the image that were seams in the model, and then texturing like that?"


Preferably yes, it is easier to understand later on. When I do texture completely by hand, I usually use polygon or bezier select to select sections of the UV map. Sometimes the magic wand tool can be used as well.

Quote: "what does the "clouds" texture do in your model? "


The clouds texture was used in the material for the blade to simulate brushed metal. I stretched the clouds really far in the y-direction to make it look like little lines.

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