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Geek Culture / An iPhone/iPod Touch DBP plugin?

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Zeus
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 18:55
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Seeing all of TGC's new iPhone/iPod Touch games, why do they not make a DBP for iPhone or iPod Touch development? Or maybe a separate engine? Just a thought..

Cheers!
Zeus

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Clbembry
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 19:01
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The iPhone supports BASIC?

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AndrewT
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 19:02 Edited at: 8th Jul 2009 19:04
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Because it wouldn't even be DBP anymore! It wouldn't run on DirectX and the entire engine would have to be rewritten from the ground up. It would also most likely use C++, C, or Objective-C, and development would only be possible on Mac, as opposed to just about every other product made by them which run exclusively on Windows.

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David R
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 19:20
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Also, even if they made a product to develop iPhone games, it couldn't be a BASIC interpreter or engine, since this would be a breach of license for developing on the device (in the same way Java interpreters/runtimes are prohibited)

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BatVink
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 20:35
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Quote: "it couldn't be a BASIC interpreter or engine, since this would be a breach of license for developing on the device"


DBP isn't interpreted, and isn't BASIC when it's compiled. It is C++
It would be nice to think that TGC are using these games to create a development application.

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David R
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 20:43 Edited at: 8th Jul 2009 20:44
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Quote: "DBP isn't interpreted, and isn't BASIC when it's compiled. It is C++"


I'm 99% certain DBP simply embeds bytecode (generated from the BASIC input) in the output EXE. And bytecode execution is still interpreter-based

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dark coder
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 20:57
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Quote: "I'm 99% certain DBP simply embeds bytecode (generated from the BASIC input) in the output EXE. And bytecode execution is still interpreter-based"


You are 99% wrong then.

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lazerus
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 21:04
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you dont argue with the dark coder

Time won’t tell, fate shall’nt decide and the gods themselves can’t intervene for fear of my retrubution. You cannot hide, now face me.
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David R
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 22:09
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Quote: "You are 99% wrong then."


Why is the compiled code stored inside _virtual.dat then? Just for kicks?

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dark coder
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 22:17
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Quote: "Why is the compiled code stored inside _virtual.dat then? Just for kicks?"


DBPro's compiler doesn't fully generate the exe, that file stores the compiled code among other things and just jumps to it at runtime.

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 22:53
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Why doesn't someone here start working on their own BASIC for iPhone dev, and beat TGC to the punch? I've considered making a BASIC IDE for iPhone dev, which does nothing more than converts the syntax to Objective-C, in which the user has to manually compile himself. It would be a fun project and many people could learn from the conversion results.

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AndrewT
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 23:09
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Quote: "which does nothing more than converts the syntax to Objective-C"


Now THAT would be popular, because from what I've heard/seen Objective-C is absolutely hideous.

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Jeku
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 23:15
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Quote: "because from what I've heard/seen Objective-C is absolutely hideous."


Yes... yes it is

There ARE ways to use C and C++ for iPhone dev, I just haven't bothered using that method because most of the tutorials focus on Objective-C.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 8th Jul 2009 23:30
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Quote: "from what I've heard/seen Objective-C is absolutely hideous."


It makes a lot of sense in some ways but in other ways it just doesn't. What's the point of being able to see the names of the variables you're passing when you can't rearrange them or leave some of them to defaults?

I.e. if this works

why can't


It's stupid. If you're gonna force us to enter all that crap alongside our variables, at least let us enter them however we damned please.

As for that preprocessor idea, I'm with you on that. What'd be extra nice is a structured code editor so you're not working with mistypable words; instead, commands are solid blocks and variables/functions have to be dragged and dropped.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 04:38
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Quote: "Why doesn't someone here start working on their own BASIC for iPhone dev, and beat TGC to the punch? I've considered making a BASIC IDE for iPhone dev, which does nothing more than converts the syntax to Objective-C, in which the user has to manually compile himself. It would be a fun project and many people could learn from the conversion results."
That sounds cool. Just wish I had the know-how!

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David R
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 11:36 Edited at: 9th Jul 2009 11:39
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Quote: "Why doesn't someone here start working on their own BASIC for iPhone dev, and beat TGC to the punch? "


That's a very good point. I've been learning Obj-C and thought I might make a C++ -> Obj-C converter just for myself, but putting BASIC in there could be a good idea too...

Quote: "DBPro's compiler doesn't fully generate the exe, that file stores the compiled code among other things and just jumps to it at runtime.
"


Which means it's behaving like a virtual machine. Even though the instructions are stored within itself, there's still a clear division between 'it' as the machine and the code it's executing. I'm fairly certain it's probably still squarely outside the licence - but it's irrelevant anyhow. The 'host' segment of the DBP apps does so much oddball stuff (extracting to TEMP for example) porting to iPhone would be nigh-impossible.

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dark coder
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 12:17
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Quote: "Which means it's behaving like a virtual machine."


yes, if being nothing like a VM constitutes as being like one.


Quote: "Even though the instructions are stored within itself, there's still a clear division between 'it' as the machine and the code it's executing."


A difference of no significance; the program code(x86) is merely not stored within the program itself. What does this have to do with your original argument?

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Van B
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 13:40
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More and more people are looking to make their own casual games, so I think any sort of BASIC would be successful on the iPhone - maybe interpreted is the way to go, like DBClassic.

It's a shame that mobile game creator thing didn't take off, if it had, then TGC could have moved onto the iPhone platforms, taking their customer base with them.


Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
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David R
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 15:35 Edited at: 9th Jul 2009 15:41
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Quote: "yes, if being nothing like a VM constitutes as being like one."


Well, actually it is quite a lot like a virtual machine. The 'stub' part of the EXE takes care of setting up the environment (DBP_PROGRAM in TEMP) - it is also "in control" (memory allocation, controlling the events and windows) whereas the code it is executing is not. The framework it creates is also present continually until the user code exits, much like a process host of some form.

Every instruction is directed at a set of DLLs which act like an interface, and could easily be replaced - providing a potential level of abstraction, much like a virtual machine. (The project which replaced DX dependencies with OGL is proof of this, for example, and the user code didn't even need altering)

Quote: "What does this have to do with your original argument?"


Because my original argument is that such a mechanism breaches the licence for iPhone apps, which I'm fairly certain it does. Embedding a ROM in an emulator app isn't a tolerable workaround for that point on the licence, so presumably having a VM/Interpreter like app with code embedded in it isn't valid either (OK, it may not be a verbatim interpreter as such, but the the way in which the fixed stub section of the EXE "takes charge" in the execution of the embedded code means it could be referred to as such. Also, is _virtual.dat valid/pure executable code, or is it just a listing of the DLL calls necessary? If the latter, it could still technically be an interpreter)

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 17:18
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@Jeku

You can't interpret code on the iPhone, it goes against their stupid restrictions. And Omega Basic was Java based; not allowed on iPhone.

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Zeus
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 17:38
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Quote: "
You can't interpret code on the iPhone, it goes against their stupid restrictions. And Omega Basic was Java based; not allowed on iPhone.
"


Apple sucks.

I wish I would've have bought Omega Basic, especially since the development of Blox.

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David R
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 18:22
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Quote: "You can't interpret code on the iPhone, it goes against their stupid restrictions. "


Nah, he meant conversion to Obj-C before being compiled / ending up on the phone. So like a preprocessor type tool to just convert between the languages.

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NeX the Fairly Fast Ferret
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 18:25
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Quote: "I think any sort of BASIC would be successful on the iPhone - maybe interpreted is the way to go"


A preprocessor might be allowed but this is Apple we're talking about. It's double standards; release source code for a lot of the OS and then pile restrictions on developers and users.

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AndrewT
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Posted: 9th Jul 2009 19:04
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Quote: "A preprocessor might be allowed but this is Apple we're talking about."


But Apple wouldn't even be aware that any of this is happening; for all intents and purposes the game would be written in Objective-C. However the game would actually be written in C++, BASIC, etc. before hand, then it would run through a precompiler that converts it to Objective-C, then it would be compiled. So I hardly think Apple can restrict us from doing something like this.

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Jeku
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Posted: 10th Jul 2009 05:54
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Quote: "A preprocessor might be allowed but this is Apple we're talking about. It's double standards; release source code for a lot of the OS and then pile restrictions on developers and users."


Apple would have NO idea you're using a preprocessor. I'm talking about developing software that runs on a Mac that converts BASIC code to Objective-C. The user would then have to take that code into XCode and compile it himself. There can't be rules against that kind of a thing as it's simply Mac software.

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Zeus
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Posted: 10th Jul 2009 06:02
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Sounds pretty cool Jeku.

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Darth Vader
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Posted: 10th Jul 2009 11:14
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All in favour of Jeku starting this project say 'I'...


Just kidding mate

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 10th Jul 2009 15:45
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GLBasic is due to be able to allow compilation for iPhone/iTouch - the only real problem at the moment is SDL apparently isn't compatible with OS 3
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Caleb1994
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Posted: 27th Sep 2009 05:17
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GLBasic? is this going to be only for apple also

New Site! Check it out \/
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JoelJ
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Posted: 27th Sep 2009 07:09 Edited at: 27th Sep 2009 07:12
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Quote: "I've been learning Obj-C and thought I might make a C++ -> Obj-C converter"

You don't need to, you can write C++ code just fine already. It's just the "standard" for Mac/iPhone is Obj-C so all the documentation/tutorials are in Obj-C so everyone seems to just stick to that.
You can even mix C++/C/Obj-C code in the same project.

Quote: "A preprocessor might be allowed but this is Apple we're talking about."

http://monotouch.net/

this is a subject that facinates me. Ever since I saw this video I've wanted to do something like that. It's a really cool way of doing things.

Golly. Now you guys got me all excited about this again

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Phaelax
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Posted: 27th Sep 2009 07:55
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Even with .Net now available for development on the iPhone, you still couldn't use the darkgdk because of DX.

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David R
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Posted: 27th Sep 2009 13:30
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Quote: "You don't need to, you can write C++ code just fine already."


I was under the impression that you cannot use UIKit with C++ (so you would have to write some Obj-C at some point, even if the guts of the app were C++)

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