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Dave J
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 09:42
Am I the only one who feels stunned and just a little bit excited about this new competition? Who'd have thought a four-month long competition with the only restriction being an alien model REQUIRED in the game. The prize? An ugly green PC! Okay, that's just a personal opinion of mine, it does look ugly but who cares, I still want it

Rich, I think you've topped the last competition already, Time = Plenty of Awesome Games.

This will be tough.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Oliver
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 10:26 Edited at: 21st Aug 2003 10:30
I'm definatly going to enter this time. Only problem is my current game is going to look pretty stupid with an alien in it

Dave J
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 10:37
Start a new one then.

Oh, and an interesting thought - Will the alien be one from say Aliens or Independance Day, Predator, E.T. or Marvin the Martian? I'm taking a punt that it will be a 'scary' type alien but we won't know for sure so it's hard to start planning.

Oh and why couldn't you guys hook us a PC like this:





"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 11:23
I quite liked the design of the PC, and it left me wondering if the 'alien' would actually be a model of the Alien computer.

Either way, I feel a strong desire to model Ripley in that funny warehousing walker robot thing...

Pneumatic Dryll
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 11:29
This is certainly cool... as i have the GeForce version of that Alienware computer - and its speed is just outstanding
and not too noisey either, which makes it pretty awesome. (any why i generally buy thier comps)

Wonder what the Alien is going to look like

Van B
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 12:25
Whoah that computer looks sweet - Nice one Rich, looking forward to this compo.

I hope we get to see the alien soon and get to know what animations it has, I'm hoping they go for a standard monster style alien, but given the sponsor, I can see it being a bug eyed thingy with green skin and a fat head. I got ideas for any type of alien, so it's cool either way .


Van-B

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Dave J
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 13:14
Here's an interesting question: Are we allowed to modify the alien, or, for example, give it more animations?

I'm guessing a likely answer will be no modelling modifications but we will be allowed to add animations. Or at least I hope we will.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Mentor
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 14:02 Edited at: 21st Aug 2003 14:14
then again that gives the advantage to people who can model and animate if the alien starts breakdancing all over the place like a rice crispies advert or something whenever you score a point ,I would say the model will be copyright to Alienware and intended to advertise or represent their systems, so it may have to be the main character or prominent in the game, added in as an afterthought (some copies of the model stood beside the road in a driving game or something), would not score points, and what do points make?, PRIZES, (must stop watching cheesy quiz shows), and you want points when the prize is so desirable, I already hate the guy who will win it (won`t be me ), I hate you!, do you hear me?, bah!, humbug!, a pox on decent coders!.

Mentor.

PS: I suspect the head of it will be not unlike the one on the front of that PC on the contest page.

David T
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 14:22 Edited at: 29th Aug 2003 19:03
Well it seems this time we've been given a bit more notification, so my answer is a definate maybe.

Although I don't know whether ot start afresh or add aliens into my current project (it'll be easy).

Theres no place like 127.0.0.1
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Dave J
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 14:59
Quote: "then again that gives the advantage to people who can model and animate if the alien starts breakdancing all over the place like a rice crispies advert or something whenever you score a point"

Yeah, that also crossed my mind but what if the animations aren't enough to fit in your game or aren't suitable? Surely we'd be allowed to add more appropriate ones?

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
lcfcfan
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 15:22
I'm looking forward to this competition i did not enter the last one through lack of coding experience but think i have a better chance now if i work hard at it!

Ermes
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:02
boh! i'm not so happy of this new compo.I pass retro compo, i will pass this one.The prize is low, and there are teams much better than me at coding, some "Darkbasicpro Sharks", whit one at music, two at 2d graphics, 2 at 3d models, two programmers and a designers, i'm a poor one team made, so i'll sure lost the prize.
Much better develop my games in my way. That's the realty.

Free Download for a Free World
spooky
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:15
Well, I'll be entering. Give me something to do over Christmas for a change instead of stuffing my face with junk food and drinking the local pubs dry!

My DB knowledge has increased a hell of a lot over last 6 months and feel it's time to unleash myself on the world!

The programmer formerly known as sonic
hexGEAR
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:21
i just hope the alien model is limbed, don't think mesh deformation is possible in classic withought a special .dll. i do however have a feeling they will permit us to create more animations.

to live is to suffer, to survive, well, thats to find meaning in the sufferening.....
Mentor
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:36 Edited at: 21st Aug 2003 18:52
Hexgear: I think you are supposed to be using Pro, that just might be why they had the competion in the Pro section of the site, yes?, you can always download the enhanced Pro demo they released to allow none Pro users to enter the competition, it`s not as though you would be left out.
Ermes: the prize is low?, you think a $2000 PC is a cheapskate prize?, just what would you call a good return for four months part time work at your chosen hobby?, yea gods! the mind boggles $500 a month, $125 a week for part time work on a program that will NOT be having Carmac looking over his shoulder or have any real financial worth, you can`t make a program worth anything in four months (or at least I can`t), it would take a year or more to create the models, and they have to hand the prize over even if the best entry they get is tic tac toe in ascii, it`s not like you would be on to a loser.

Mentor.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:39
this competition will no doubt attract more 'lonewolf' programmers, simply because the prize this time can't actually be shared ... but that aside it is a far far better prize, especially for the gamers amongst us - i'm sure ALOT of the more experienced guys here would kill to get thier hands on a rig like this.

personally i have a pretty MAJOR question here - but
WHY is the competition machine going to have a Radeon, when the Alienware standard 3Ghz Pentium4/AthlonXP machines come with GeForceFX 5600ti 128MB?

could we have the option of choosing between either a GeForceFX 5600 Ultra or a Radeon 9600pro?
(as i'm guessing the Radeon 9600pro is the one they're currently thinking of bundling)
I mean after all it is a matter of $46 (£30) ... as the prize is already close to $2,000 in price doubt its any skin off TGC's nose

(though it would be cool if we could choose between FX5900ti & Radeon9800pro )

Mentor
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:45
Raven: could be it was one made to someones order that didn`t have the money to pay for it, or an ex demo model, or one made from parts they had lay around, I aint cribbing, for that sort of prize I am definitley gonna give it a try, even though I will get soundly whupped in the attempt.

Mentor.
Arius Myst
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:46
I was gonna buy an FX 5600(Not Ultra) and it was crap in comparison to the Radeon 9600 pro on a benchmark i saw(cant remember the site, he tested a lot of cards together using 3d mark 03 and actual games). The frame rates seriously dropped when performing pixel shading aswell as basic 3d scenes.

I dunno a lot about graphics chips so dun flame me on the basis of whats above. But with all that being said id much rather have a radeon chip than a geforce one.
Van B
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 18:47
Ermes,
I'm a one man team with a heavier workload than most, and I'm entering - there's no reason why a team of 60 people would automatically do better. Some would say being in a team has it's downside too, like not having total freedom or the added stress of someone elses work being wasted as well as your own. I'm pretty sure that it's the same principal as all the other compo's - make a fun, original and complete game and you have a fair chance. Advanced stuff like pixel shaders and bump mapping etc should really be left at the door.


Van-B

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 19:19
Quote: "I was gonna buy an FX 5600(Not Ultra) and it was crap in comparison to the Radeon 9600 pro on a benchmark i saw(cant remember the site, he tested a lot of cards together using 3d mark 03 and actual games). The frame rates seriously dropped when performing pixel shading aswell as basic 3d scenes."


and my brand of GeForceFX 5200 gets a score of 1,200 on FutureMarks site using a Pentium4 2.5 w/512Mb Rdram w/DirectX 9.00 w/Detonator4 44.03

but for some reason my Duron800Mhz w/256 133Mhz Sdram w/DirectX 9.00 SDK Debug w/Detonator4 44.12 (CD Drivers) got 3,800

... i see across the board on the internet the Radeons so-called out performance of the GeForce equivilants - but by some miricle when i get a new GeForceFX in my system it not just can go head to head with a Radeon equivilant but it wipes the floor with it.
Especially using Shaders, in particular the 2.x & 3.x specifications.

Rob K
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 19:28
Quote: "WHY is the competition machine going to have a Radeon, when the Alienware standard 3Ghz Pentium4/AthlonXP machines come with GeForceFX 5600ti 128MB?"


I think the card will be better than that - probably a 9700Pro or a 9800Pro

I'd take a Radeon over a vacuum-cleaner GeForceFX anyday.

Ian T
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 20:51
Agreed

--Mouse

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hexGEAR
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 21:17 Edited at: 21st Aug 2003 21:17
Mentor: check out this dark basic page, under what do i need to do? it says "You need to write a game using either the DarkBASIC Professional or DarkBASIC programming languages" but i guess it could be changed later on

Mentor
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 21:30
my bad!, at least they excluded the 3D game maker, we wouldn`t want unfair competition (LOL), seriously though, If you won and seeing you are in Nigeria, who gets to pay for the parcel post?, you, Alien or DB?, and what if it won`t run on the local power? (although I should think it has a universal power supply), just wondering

Mentor.
hexGEAR
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 21:37 Edited at: 21st Aug 2003 21:38
true well, i'm in the UK periodically so "IF" i win then there shouldn't be any post problems however when i return to Nigeria there might be some power problems, but nothing a good adaptor can't fix

Rob K
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 21:42
Quote: "i see across the board on the internet the Radeons so-called out performance of the GeForce equivilants - but by some miricle when i get a new GeForceFX in my system it not just can go head to head with a Radeon equivilant but it wipes the floor with it.
Especially using Shaders, in particular the 2.x & 3.x specifications."


Yes results do vary from system to system, however the general consensus is that the GeForceFX 5900 is the fastest card out there, but the R9800Pro isn't far behind.

Are you using the newest NVidia-cheat-proof 3DMark03 for testing?

Also you mentioned 3.x specifications - I wasn't aware that Pixel / VS 3.x existed. 3DMark03 / Tomb Raider / HL 2 and anything else you care to name uses 2.0 at best. All the documentation for both the FX and Radeon series claims that 2.0 is the latest PS/VS version they can handle.

Shadow Robert
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 22:33
yeah i use the uptodate 3DMark03 ... and my FX card WELL outperform the Radeon equivilants.

think about it Rob, Alienware make PERFORMANCE gaming machines and they're bundled with GeForceFX card not ATI Radeons as standard - not because nVidia sponsor them (as they've been bundling GeForce cards well before they did) but because they're the best performing cards.

Quote: "Are you using the newest NVidia-cheat-proof 3DMark03 for testing?"

from this i assume you think i cheat when i benchmark, however i do have the latest patch ... and whenever i benchmark i reset any overclocking i MAY have done. Not that i overclock as a general rule because i prefer my hardware to be stable, and thats not paranoia WindowsXP actually compiles specifically to your hardware - and any instabilities in calculation when it is compiling make your systems totally unstable.

and i'd suggest for pixel/fragment and vertex shader versions you check out the DirectX SDK Help & Cg nv30 Specifications.
all current games might use ps/vs 2.0 for compatibility reasons - but there is a 3.0 specification which has been out for about a year now was created along side 2.0, and currently to my knowlage only the GeForceFX 5800/5900; Quadro4 XGL; QuadroFX cards are capable of them.
There are also some of the 2.0 extensions which are only available in GeForceFX based cards.

the specifications of the GeForceFX 5900ti may interest you, because most Radeon owners and alot of gamers don't want to admit it but the card sorely ... and i mean SORELY outperforms the Radeon 9800pro and even the new R480 only comes close.
I don't know why almost every techy alive seems to want the Radeons to be better - but just look at the technical specs of both cards, even if you don't use them it is quite obvious which can do what ... even on thier sites they have the technical abilities of the cards.

Yet somehow people are going to tell me that my system is special because it can achieve what the cards technical specs actually SAY it can do?

sorry but i don't buy it that my systems are some how super optimised to the point where they can quite admirabirably outperform everyone elses system - even though i'm using out-of-the-box software and a brand new Windows installation on a Fat32 system with no optimisation done at all?

feel free to look across the web at the stats of these cards, technically the FX should well outperform the Radeons - and on my systems they do with ease. So how come techies who do these internet benchmarks always come up with the Radeon beating the FX?
I mean geez even ATi have admitted that the GeForceFX 5900ti is the most powerful card on the market, but goto Futuremark and look at how many Radeon 9800pro's are up there beating them!!
Can you honestly tell me you trust these results?

cusoi
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 22:40
I wonder when the rules will be up, in other words when the newsletter will be send.

B-e-a-utiful... Visit my site: www.cuso.tk
Andy Igoe
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Posted: 21st Aug 2003 23:17
As soon as I saw the feeder I just knew Raven was going to go a thread jack about graphics cards...

I hate ATI on the grounds that I used to work in technical support, so I think you know where I stand on that debate.

With regards to the competition, you know, what this thread is actually about... It is a shame that the prize is not something which can be shared, I for one would much rather work in a team - computers are a lonely enough hobby as it is and I need 'some' social interaction from time to time.

Therefor Banshee will probably be working on the coin toss principle - you know the one, throw a coin on the floor and...

Anyway, I see no reason at all why extra animations should be forbidden, so some people dont have the skill to animate... So what? There's going to be a fair number of other models in the game, should we ban animation of them too to give the same people a chance?

Personally I haven't decided on a game, but one thing is for sure - when the alien appears in my first game (you know me by now right, i'll probably write 12 entries in 4 months...) it will appear very differently to how it does in every other game, I am not sure what technique I am going to use yet, but 'somehow' I will be making sure I change it's appearance, just because I dont want to play 100 games with the same prominent looking character when it comes to results time...

I hope they are allowing themselves longer to judge it this time

Pneumatic Dryll
Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 00:24
Quote: "from this i assume you think i cheat when i benchmark"


No,no - I didn't mean that at all. With the original version of 3DMark03, NVidia implemented some very blatant cheats in their drivers, which gave them a huge advantage. Of course, if you are using the 3.20 or later release this has been dealt with.

I attempted a search on PS/VS 3.0 but I could find little information on it or support for it, other than it is not even supported fully by top-end cards, and that it will be in the next-gen chips though.

It is entirely possible that NVidia cards perform better on your machine for whatever reason, all I can say is that I haven't seen that happen anywhere else.

Shadow Robert
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i can't see how nVidia could add anything to cheat the tests, as your score is based on your overall FPS for all of the given tests + your CPU fps rating.
so really i can't see how its possible for them to get any advantage, add to this the fact that this would increase not decrease the scores.

i mean feel free to explain this to me because i honestly can't figure out any way they could give themselves and advantage ... and usually i'm pretty good at figuring ways around the impossible.

its not just my machines that seem to perform well with the FX line, the machines at where i used to work also got similar benchmark results ... this was even prior to the release of the DetonatorFX drivers - there are also my friends machines, and several companies that make pure games machines suchas Alienware, Games Basement & Ulitmate Gaming Rigs.

It seems only reviewers and home users who bitch about the speed, and i don't do anything special - i mean christ only my FX5900 & nv40 machines even have AGP8x support, all the rest of my rigs only have 4x with less than 512MB Ram ... they only think really special about them i suppose is the fact that they're virus free and defragged weekly.

i don't really have any other optimisation on the systems, most are running at standard speeds for the processors with standard either sdram or clk2 ddr (PC2100) ... so really hardly anything special.
Most are even on SiS & Via chipsets rather than the Northridge or nForce2 chipsets unlike most home & reviewers systems now.

you add to this i'm using the DirectX9.02 SDK Debug which runs a good sight slower than the retail one that adverage gamers use... anyway you look at it, really my systems should be performing dismally comparied to other peoples.

-- -- --

and yeah 3.0 is really what the next generation of cards should be using, but the GeForceFX 5800/5900 are the next generation cards, as 3.0 was specified in late 2001, and has been developed for since March 2002 by nVidia who are setting all of the standards in the format - hense why not alot of information on it.

But Cg uses it, for DirectX its specified as nv30 and for OpenGL you use ps30 ... the specification is no doubt going to be nVidia only though because they've developed 4.0 which superceeds it.
So like OpenGL 1.5 being only nVidia Shaders 3.0 will no doubt be too

if you get a chance to check through the Dx9 SDK it has the specification of its format as of October 2002, and alot of the stuff are very nVidia orientated.
DirectX doesn't even detect cards that can use it yet either ... max version it'll return is 2.0 (even though the FX and Radeons use upto 2.5 & 2.2 specifications respectively)

personally i doubt anyone here should worry about the newer formats if they're getting into the development - just use HLSL or Cg and let them worry about the fragment and pixel formats
i generally stick to 1.1 anyways because that covers
GeForce3, GeForce4Ti, GeForceFX, Radeon 9x00 (except 9000)

Ermes
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 01:51
eh, excuse me but i've mistaked, i was thinking the prize was only the case of the computer.....!
anyway, i'm in doubt of the judging system... in the only compo i've entered with my first game, i've ranked a 6th place on 60.
i've see the 5 previous, and they was ranked with the "RND(10)" command of db....
I'm afraid of this, i've see very good game in retro compo be classified far by the first.....
Then, why waste my time with a compo i think i never win...this for me is an hobby, i don't want to become workaholic for win a computer, and see my game lost in a pile of other's games with the same alien as main character...
simply this... i'm not remissive, i think it's better to cut the cake in more pieces, not only one.

anyway thanks to dbmen for this compo, nobody ask they, but they do.

This is my opinion, for sure a wrong system to rate this compo, i know.i'm like this.sorry!

Free Download for a Free World
the_winch
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 01:58 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2003 07:13
Quote: " i can't see how nVidia could add anything to cheat the tests"


http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/30860.html

Another link about dodgy behaviour from ati.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/3/30880.html

Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 02:09 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2003 02:10
Quote: "i can't see how nVidia could add anything to cheat the tests, as your score is based on your overall FPS for all of the given tests + your CPU fps rating.
so really i can't see how its possible for them to get any advantage, add to this the fact that this would increase not decrease the scores."


nVidia most certainly did cheat on the tests, I can't remember the exact details and I have to go now so when I get back I'll explain exactly how they did.

Edit: Nvm, The_Winch found a news article

Ocean Runner
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 02:31
Quote: "
The only condition is that your game has to feature a special 3D Alien model that we have created and animated especially for this competition.
"


Yes the model will be animated.

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1.5 tons.
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Ian T
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 06:36
Oh yeah, there was a big hubub about it. nVidia cheated pretty big. Fixed it in the next driver and pretended it hadn't happened

--Mouse

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MikeS
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 09:41
Heh, I'll enter the competition. Win or lose, just for the fun of it. Of course, I won't drive myself up the wall to finish this project. With school and all, I'm very busy. It should be fun, and I'm still waiting for the alien model.(newsletter soon hopefully.)



A book? I hate book. Book is stupid.
Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 09:49
Quote: "Yes the model will be animated."


The question was if we'd be allowed to add additional animations to the premade ones.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 11:39
well i saw no performance increase in just 3DMark03 nor did i see any drop of quality between the Radeon 9x00 and GeForce4/FX lines ...

the "cheats" look interesting - question that puzzles me though is why don't the nVidia drivers simply allow for floating point compression?
i mean with 128bit floating point (which is what shaders use exclusively really) they can squeeze 2 64bit floating point values into the hi/lo registers and get a good 40-50% speed increase
and all without the aid of any tricks.

That said in don't remember ever having these problems with my FX's in Mark03 graphically nor do i get such low Mark scores, as my FX5900ti gets 8,000 marks - but thiers only got 5,800?

seems kinda childish that either would cheat ... but kinda just justifies my point that the 3DMark programs are really a waste of time for benchmarking reasons.

Rob K
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 14:01 Edited at: 22nd Aug 2003 14:03
There was a big article on the cheats, however, basically summarized:

- On the DOOM-type level, areas which were not visible in the on-the-rails demo ignored instructions to clear the backbuffer (in the developer version you could see smeared stars)

- Several counts of Vertex / Pixel shaders being replaced with ones of poorer visual quality

- Clipping planes added just beyond the edge of the view in the airplane demo

- Various 3DMark03 commands ignored

As for ATI, they did replace some of the vertex shaders with ones optimised for their architechture, however, the replacement shaders with functionally and visually identical to the originals (unlike NVidias)

Said cheats gave a 24% performance boost on some FX cards according to Futuremark corp.

The advantage of such a program is that you can test very specific areas of a card's performance - unlike a game such as Unreal 2 for example.

Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 14:14
If I recall correctly, nVidia's argument was that: "It's a natural practise and used to speed up games not just 3DMark." - which is quite untrue

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Arius Myst
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 14:38
http://www.rage3d.com/#1060871192

ATI Technologies and Microsoft Announce Technology Development Agreement - 10:26 am EST - MrB
ATI Technologies Inc. today announced it has entered into a technology development agreement with Microsoft Corp. Under the agreement, ATI is developing custom, leading-edge graphics technologies for use in future Xbox products and services.

“We’re combining Microsoft’s vision, software experience and R&D resources with ATI's pioneering leadership in graphics technologies to create innovative future Xbox products and services that meet the lifestyle needs of consumers in the Digital Decade,� said Robbie Bach, senior vice president of the Home and Entertainment Division at Microsoft. “We selected ATI after reviewing the top graphics technologies in development and determining that ATI's technical vision fits perfectly with the future direction of Xbox.�

I'm not saying that makes ATI better than nVidia. But you really have to question why Microsoft are switching from nV to ATI chipsets for xbox2??

I also read somewhere that they are changing from Intel to AMD(Can't remember the site tho). I'd imagine its for the extra feature of a cooker inside the chassis.
BatVink
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Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 16:15
My thoughts on the comp and the comments in this thread...

The Competition - fantastic, it didn't have to be done
The Prize - fantastic, it didn't have to be provided
The model - fantastic - a head start for the programmers
Allow extra animations - why not, we're allowed to add code! I'm not an animator or a modeller, but hey, some of the modellers aren't as good at programming! I think the keywords here are "Balance", "creativity" and "Originality".

Good luck everyone, I'll be at the starting line, but may not reach the finish

StevieVee
http://facepaint.me.uk/catalog/default.php
ReD_eYe
23
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Joined: 9th Mar 2003
Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 16:20
anyone want to make a game for me???something along the lines of an alien sci-fi adventure would be good, i can give you an animated model of the main character but you will have to make all the other models yourself aswell as proram the game. You will also not be credited in the final game. If anyones interested email me
[email protected]

comp sounds cool guys can't wait to start

I have a website!!!
So go there: http://www.freewebs.com/darkb/index.htm
on second thought you probably shouldn't
Arius Myst
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 16:39
lol yea but still, a free comp is a free comp
Dave J
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Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 17:45
Quote: "I'll be at the starting line, but may not reach the finish "


Lol, I was thinking the same thing about myself.

"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
Shadow Robert
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Location: Hertfordshire, England
Posted: 22nd Aug 2003 22:40
Aruis... Mircosoft didn't choose ATi over nVidia - nVidia turned around and told them to go f**k themselves after how Microsoft had treated them in the original development.

Specifically the fact that they had to completely redesign the GeForce4 series because the original agreemtn said that the GFXB would become the GeForce4 core chipset, then Microsoft turned around and said "actually no, we want this chip to be exclusive to the XBox." which ment rather than spending $240billion on development which Microsoft only recouped them $120billion for, then then had to spend another $100billion on making the chip different as Microsoft are the ones who hold the copyright on the design.

After nVidia heard that Microsoft wanted the FX chipset and another redesign they told them where they could shove thier redesign because there didn't want to loose another $200billion because of Microsoft, its what crippled thier ability to get the GeForceFX out on time in the first place as the chip was suppose to be released August last year and it only just hit the market in January.
You add to this the constant outperformance of the FX by the Radeon by everyone who used it ... i've gotta talk to a few more FX users but the conscensis i keep hearing around is that the FX appears to not be performing to the speed they should be.

I'm still gonna say that i've been using Mark03 since its release with an FX chipsetup over several driversets and i've not seen any of these cheats.

-- -- --

as for the comp we can't really talk much about it until the new newsletter is finally released with all the details we need.

zzabb
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Location: Seattle, USA
Posted: 23rd Aug 2003 00:27
hey where is the info on the new contest?

My advice is free -
unfortunately you get what you pay for (-:
Andy Igoe
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Location: United Kingdom
Posted: 23rd Aug 2003 01:27
Goto the top nagivation menu zzabb where it says "developer", click that it'll take you to the developers centre (that's us, we are developers) and that is where the main announcement is (I think, didn't actually check before I typed this).

Quote: "I'm not saying that makes ATI better than nVidia. But you really have to question why Microsoft are switching from nV to ATI chipsets for xbox2??"


First Microsoft screwed nVidia in some hoo harr about development - probably what Raven is saying - then nVidia screwed Microsoft by trying to raise the prices on the contracted chips.

It all got very nasty and their supply deal was being done with lawyers instead of salesman and purchasers. Therein lies the heart of the problem with such commercial establishments, they brought it on themselves. Fire the lawyers, employ human beings, then none of this would have happened.

Your responce has been forward to our automated flame retard handling system. If you are a gimp, press 1. If you need help getting an e...

Pneumatic Dryll
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Posted: 23rd Aug 2003 07:02
im gunna enter. and im gunna get last. w00t
~haxor

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