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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Ideas for Upgrade 6

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Fallout
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 00:04
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Hell yes! polygon to polygon collision! Bring it on! That's what stopped me creating my greatest game of all time ...... uhh ... or what could've been my greatest game of all time, maybe.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 00:16 Edited at: 31st Aug 2003 00:16
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Raven - interesting ideas, but I think that there are some more immediate language requirements which need to be addressed, such as an OPTION EXPLICIT compiler directive.

Actually, the OPTION EXPLICIT part would probably have to be a checkbox under Project Manager.

And, dare I say it, the debugger could use some work.


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Easily Confused
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 00:25
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Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not familiar with the terms "Node Trees & Portals", what are they and why/how would they make our programs faster?

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 01:38
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Short explanation:

They are a way of removing polys which are not visible from the scene to speed up the framerate.

Long explanation:

Node Trees basically means dividing your world up into equal-sized cubic spaces or "nodes". By means of various checks and tests, it is possible to find out which nodes are visible from any given node, and which nodes are not visible from that node (because they are hidden by other nodes in front).

DBP checks to see which node the camera is currently in, then calculates the nodes which are visible from that particular node, removing ones which are obscured. For example, if you have nodes A and B, and the camera is in node A:

A
--
B

where there is a wall completely covering the side of the node facing node B, DBP calculates that anything in node B will not be visible, therefore there is no need to draw it.

By only passing the polys in the visible nodes to the renderer, it is possible to drastically reduce the polycount of a scene. Less polys = more speed.


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Easily Confused
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 04:01 Edited at: 31st Aug 2003 04:02
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Interesting

Is this technique only for BSP or will we be able to use this for any 3D environment?

If the latter, then VERY interesting

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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Terabyte
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 04:58
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BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG! BRING BACK FOG!


What the hell happened to the brilliant dark basic fog...

dbpro fog looks crap.

If you look across diaganals you can see clearly. and if you look on one of the adjacent diaganals you cant see anything.

the fog in dark basic pro just isnt even.
quite frankly it sucks and its crap!
i used matedit and put fog on. and remebered how decent fog was in db. some of you might disagree so couldnt we have an option like

Decent fog on
and
crap fog on
(joke)

so.... why what happed whats gonna happen what can we do

>>TerraByte. Putting the Byte back into Terragramming<< If my post has less than 20 typos then it wasnt me who wrote it!
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Luke
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 05:24
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arrays should have no limit to the amount of dimensions.

the rotate object command needs to automatically wrap the angles, you have to do that nearly everytime you use the command anyway.

these are some commands I'd like to see eventually in Darkbasicpro, even if they can't get into U6:

show matrix
hide matrix

save matrix(like an object)
load matrix(like an object)

make matrix from mesh
make mesh from matrix

glow object(like using a pixel shader to brighten the area / pixels around the object, so there is a glow effect.

blur object(with a frame amount of blur)

free flight commands for limbs

and, of course, the particle commands should be fixed and with more commands.

But I'd say focus mainly on fixing bugs until new commands, like the ones I mentioned, are added.

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 13:46
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I guess DBP just uses the standard DX commands for fog - which changed from DX7 to DX8 perhaps?


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MicroMan
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 14:32
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I'd like a better TYPEDEF structure with the possibility of arrays inside the typedefs. That's high on my wishlist. Also an unequivocal GLOBAL command -- the one that now exists doesn't seem to work...

I'd also like a clearer SUB structure. Both QBasic and Visual Basic has it, so there's precedence for it in the language. With SUBs the code would be clearer and could be broken down into more manageable chunks -- and you could get it out of the way when you're done with it.

I know you can do this with the LABEL: return stuff, but the esthetic in me require a proper SUB -- ENDSUB structure. That's my wishlist, but I don't expect them to be in the next upgrade.

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DarkRevolution
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 17:06
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What i would like is an option to reduse the strain put on the processor, if you want to make a background prog you cannt because dbp programs use all of the processor

Welcome to my Revolution
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IanM
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 17:13
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Global works fine for me. Also, a sub is just a function that doesn't return a value, and we have that already.

I'd like to also see 'pass by reference' for variables, types and arrays.
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Rye
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 17:13
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There have been a lot of good ideas that i hope will be put into an upgrade even if it is Upgrade 1000. I didnt think there would be this many replies.

Its been an interesting read!
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Duffer
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 19:34
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Glad to hear that Save Object is penned in for Upgrade 6 and that BOTH Save Object and Append Object are scheduled to work with .dbo.

Couple that with the new Vertex and CSG stuff and the saddos amongst us can write the 3D Object Designer / Animator that we've always wanted to...

One or two basic 3D Object Animation Frame commands (saving a new frame, copying a frame from one Object to another?) would go down well too...

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the_winch
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 20:04
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I would like to see a cbaracter that could be used like this
position object 1,%,%+0.1,%
sprite 1,x#,y#,%
insted of typing out
position object 1,object posision x(1),object position y(1)+0.1,object position z(1)
sprite 1,x#,y#,sprite image(1)
The character that did it could be any unused one.
Another job for a pre-processor I think.
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ZomBfied
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 20:37
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And how would you know when you've finished one case statement (and you dont want it to fall through to the next one), without an endcase ?

Well VB seems to work fine without Endcase. When you hit a Case Statement or an ENDSELECT there's your endcase. Actually it's really no big deal. I'm just lazy.
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ZomBfied
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 20:41
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position object 1,%,%+0.1,%??

Hell yeah that would rule.
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Duffer
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 22:46
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Some sort of cross-over between 3d object commands and 3d matrix commands and/or terrain commands would be neat now that we have the one internal format...

why cant matrices become more like 3d objects? and as the chap above says, why not convert object to matrix and vice versa...

also, what about effects for matrices ie. ripple, wave, sea, splash, general water etc - or even for objects... after all, we have the snow and fire particles...

and what everyone else above has said about arrays and UDTs
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jrowe
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 23:11
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I'd just like them to get rid of matrices and finishe LOD terrains.

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Rob K
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Posted: 31st Aug 2003 23:37
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Quote: "Some sort of cross-over between 3d object commands and 3d matrix commands and/or terrain commands would be neat now that we have the one internal format..."


There was a big debate about that on DBDN recently. Everyone agreed that it would be good if everything was an object, so bump mapping could be used on a matrix for example. The tricky bit was converting between the old and new systems - the suggestions being:

Handles - Like Blitz (myobj=CREATE MATRIX())

Association - (ASSOCIATE OBJECT WITH MATRIX, applying bump mapping to the associated object would make the matrix be bump mapped)

Conversion - CONVERT MATRIX TO OBJECT, turn a matrix into an object.


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Duffer
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 00:39
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@ Rob K,

what would be excellent would be if you could texture and tinker with the texture on each of the 'tiles' on the 'matrix' individually - even if it wasnt then a matrix - if you see what I mean...

Conversion is probably neatest - would it slow it down chronically to have all the 'tiles' as limbs - or will this new vertex level stuff solve our probs?
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 01:26
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I think you misunderstand how it would work.

Basically, if matrices were objects, you could use the standard object commands on them, PLUS the existing matrix commands like GET GROUND HEIGHT() and so on.


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IanM
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 02:34
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Just to put everyones mind at rest, a very large part of the discussion was how to do all this without breaking any existing code.

There were a lot of good points there ... the best were mine of course
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Rwilson
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 05:46
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What I Would like to see is the ability to return multiple values from a single function. Man oh MAN would that shrink some of my code! I'm running 10 functions for something that could easily be crammed into 2 or 3 funcs. I had heard it mentioned that this was planned for Update 6, but just making sure someone mentioned it.

Beyond that, this node-tree stuff sounds nice, and bug fixes are always welcomed.
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MicroMan
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 08:04
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Quote: "
Global works fine for me. Also, a sub is just a function that doesn't return a value, and we have that already.
"


GLOBAL doesn't work for me, for some reason. I don't know if it's because of my setup, or because I'm doing something wrong --so I won't start screaming "Bug!".

In any case, if I declare a variable global in the main program, it doesn't become global.

As regards FUNCTIONS/SUBS, it's not a disaster if I don't get my subs, but I still want them because I like them. Gosubs are too reminiscent of my spaghetti-code days.

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MicroMan
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 08:15
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Actually, there's two more items on my wishlist that I realized now. I want to new core commands: KEYDOWN() and MOUSEKEYDOWN() and JOYSTICKKEYDOWN() to check whether a user is holding a keyboard key, a mousekey or a joystick key pressed.

That would be good for, for example, an FPS with a sniper rifle, or for a paint program, or for anything.

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Moriar
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 09:07
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How about fixing the help! Right now the help system sucks. The descriptions are usually too short, and the examples links don't point to any examples of the command half the time. There needs to be a serious update to the help. If the help was as indepth as MSDN then there would not be half of the postings for help that exist right now and we could concentrate on writing some serious applications. That's all I want! FIX THE HELP!
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Rob K
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 12:52
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Quote: "What I Would like to see is the ability to return multiple values from a single function"


ie. the ability to pass UDTs out of functions would be very handy.

Currently though, you can easily code around this my having a global array called FunctionParams() with about 10 indicies. Create functions to push values into the array PushResult(result), and functions to get the values from the array GetResult().




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Duffer
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Posted: 1st Sep 2003 22:16
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@ RobK,

See what you were saying now - sounds good - will become a believer when Save Object and Append Object *.dbo are introduced in Upgrade 6...
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greenlig
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 07:46
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I agree with moriar

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DMXtra
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Posted: 2nd Sep 2003 13:31
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The help is currently being overhauled according to Rich. I don't know when its going to be finished, just that its being worked on in many formats and being updated with examples and all that.

Saving/Loading DBO objects are still a part of Upgrade 6, unless Lee changes his mind, it should be in there. I will update you if things change, but thats what he told me.

Dark Basic Pro - The Bedroom Coder's Language of choice for the 21st Century.
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AsCii
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 17:14
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First of all,I'm sure that the endcase command is not at all useful. Anyone remember QuickBasic (any ver of it).It never had a command like that.If that compiler can cope with that, I'm 100% sure that DBPro can do the same.
Now, as for suggestions.
What I'd like to see in further DBP vers is some further control over FTP. For example I'd like to be able to have random file access when downloading a file (like Download Managers do). Also, I'd like to be able to manipulate file b4 saving to disk. That means download and save to memory.
Also, I'd like to see some streaming support. I'm sure there will be ppl who'll want to add voice communication between players in a multiplayer game (Voice-Over-IP)
Furthermore what I consider MOST important is the upgrade of the Help System. I'm sorry to say it is pathetic . There should be further explanation over some commands(especially on the 3DMaths commands). There should be a link directing to similar/useful commands (i.e. In the UPPER$ command, there should be a link to the LOWER$ command). Finally there should be explanation of command group (I don't know how else to say it...) i.e.When I open help for the if command block, there is nowhere an explanation for the full syntax of the block.(I hope I made it clear what I wanna say...)
There are other things as well but u guys above covered me

cheers,
AsCii
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AsCii
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 17:41
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Ah,I forgot. I'd also like to see a function declared as user-defined. I mean that for example I have the type:

TYPE coordinates
x as integer
y as integer
endtype

wanting the func to return a value of type coordinates

Now, how about having the support of unions or classes(like some features of C++) I mean giving the DBPro some object oriented features.
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Rob K
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 19:02
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Quote: "Furthermore what I consider MOST important is the upgrade of the Help System."


I think a semi-online help system would be even better, where users could submit their own comments and examples.


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spooky
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 19:12
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Good idea Rob K, I am currently learning PHP and the main help file you download also has tons of user submitted snippets for each command and has really helped me. In fact PHP's helpfile which is a simple compiled CHM file is probably the best help file I have ever used.

The programmer formerly known as sonic
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kevinthekangaroo
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A good function to have would be the "set camera to follow" command to be updated, another flag to calculate if the camera is colliding with an actual 3D object or bsp.
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CattleRustler
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 20:25 Edited at: 6th Sep 2003 20:35
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-Option Explicit
-Option Strict
-Intellisense
-regular functions like vb

intVar1=myfunc(9,"s")
Function MyFunc(x as integer, y as string)as integer
...do whatever...
End Function

where the function name IS the return, not just deciding to return any variable - that to me makes no sense and is unreadable

-With-End With would be nice too

With MyType
.prop1=0
.prop2=10
.prop3="Joe"
End with

my 2 cents

EDIT: also some sense of Object Collections would be great or some array of object types that we could access like

intLoop as integer
For intLoop=0 to SoundObjectCount-1
Delete SoundObject(intLoop)
Next intLoop

but for all dbp objects, so we would never need to now specif array indexes, we could use counts and item index values to access things.

-YES THE HELP how did I forget
-and of course all BSP/COLLISION bugs

-RUST-
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M00NSHiNE
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Posted: 6th Sep 2003 23:39
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Blending bone animations so there can be third person mouselook systems, portal/nodetree support and a method of scripting (for basic A.I., triggers and the like).

"It's amazin' what you can do with a computer and access to t'internet"
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orv
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 01:52
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ENDCASE is redundant, but I can see how it makes it easier to parse the code for the compiler.
In VB there is no ENDCASE or equiv.

Sample valid Select Case in VB:

Select Case n
Case 99
Case 100, 120, 333
Case 0 To 98
Case Else
End Select

It sure would be nice to have this syntax in DB Pro but I'm sure there's alot of bigger fish to fry. I understand VB's dev team is or was over 3000 developers!

As far as how the parser would check when to stop running the code after the Case statement....
when 1) we run across another case statement (unless their's nesting... this is where it gets sticky)
2) when we hit the End Select or ENDSELECT in DB statement.
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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 02:10
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@CattleRustler

Intellisense is an editor feature. TGC don't write the editor, and don't have access to the source code I believe.

Quote: "where the function name IS the return, not just deciding to return any variable - that to me makes no sense and is unreadable"


That depends on how you code.

Personally I always put the return value into a variable called "result", usually prefixed with the type.

@Moonshine

Portals & Nodetrees are already in for U6

To further my comment about help systems earlier, Rich has already put some time into that, but he needs volunteers to help enter commands into the database.


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Dreamora
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 02:51 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 02:52
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One thing I would be really happy to see would be real pointers so it would become possible to make own UDTs like Bin Trees, Fibonacci Heaps and other things that are needed to make efficient algorithms, since I hate nothing more than have a slow programm just because DBP is to stupid to accept UDTs with list-like structures in.
Other possibility would be allowing arrays in userdefined types *with the capability of making them to lin lists/stack/queue*

Example:

Type Node
left as *Node
right as *Node
value as integer
data as dword rem this is just a Ptr to a memblock for dynamic datatype
ENDTYPE

the * just tells DBP that it must NOT try to preprocess left and right (just a pointer to a variable of TYPE Node, at the moment of compiling with no adress of course). because it is doing exactly this atm which is causing dataexplosion and compiler crash.

The other possiblity would be somehow through arrays / linlists, although I'm not sure how this should work due to the restrictions of DBP.


PS: Just before I forget: don't come over with "stupid" workarounds like right/left as memblock pointer to and arranging the whole structure as a memblock chaos, because memblocks are damned slow, so this would be a performance overkill.
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TheOneRing
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1. Arrays in UDTs
2. Return UDTs from functions
3. The ability to reposition the file pointer while reading a file (unless I missed something in the docs)
4. Bug fixes
5. Better help.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Address of variables...


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Hamish McHaggis
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Like I said in my other post (I don't know if anyone has acknowledged it yet), a command like intersect object, but instead of returning the distance from point one to the intersection, it could return the normal somehow (as angles or coordinates). Maybe INTERSECT OBJECT NORMAL(). It would be very handy for sliding collision, deflection of objects off of walls, placing bullet hole plains flat to a wall, and I'm sure quite a few other things I haven't thought of.

I know 1 other person at least would like this command also.

Brains are for idiots.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Might be worth e-mailing Lee about it now...


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Hamish McHaggis
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 19:19 Edited at: 11th Sep 2003 20:04
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Gd idea. I've never had to mail lee, just [email protected]?

Brains are for idiots.

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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That should be it.


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Wik
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Posted: 11th Sep 2003 23:49
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they should add a command to disable dx 9.0b features so u could make it 8.1 compatible even if u lost some features

The rock has rolled!
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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No chance of that, I'm afraid.


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KOL
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 03:13
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How about a more discriptive error message:
'Runtime Error 7008 - Object does not exist at line 239'
sometimes dosen't help and I have to add more code to find out what's going on.
How About:
'Runtime Error 7008 - Object ##### does not exist at line 239'
Or
'Runtime Error 7008 - Object <undefined> does not exist at line 239'?
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KOL
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Joined: 10th Aug 2003
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Posted: 12th Sep 2003 03:26
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Here's another:
A real throw back to previous basics would be the use of the ? as a Print command.
Hell, even Timex Synclare understood that...
Hell, even a Vic-20 understood that...
Hell, even a C=64 understood that...
Hell, even GW-Basic understood that...
Hell, even Amiga Basic understood that...
Hell, even VB 6.0 understands that...
Well, DB dosen't understand that!
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