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Sorry for making this thread when I tried it before, but hear me out! This one will be in much more detail. If this were to be made, it could sell millions. I know I'd buy it! Okay here goes;

Premise I've asked people how I can easily make games and almost everyone says to learn coding. That's fine and all, but do we non-coders really have the time? At least not most of us! Sure there are programs like FPS Creator that are helpful, but are too limited and somewhat broken. Many important mechanics and much needed game elements are either left out or messy. I had the idea of a game design software that could create even BETTER quality games with less the effort. It would be so simple even a 10-year-old could pick it up and play.

Layout The program would be windows-based. This does not mean Windows exclusive, but instead means that it would be in a simple, yet professional layout. It would however be mainly for Windows to start with. It would contain multiple editors packed into one program toolbox. It might contain the model editor, character editor, weapon editor, item/pickup editor, particle editor, cut-scene/animation editor, texture/material editor, sound effect/music editor, Menu GUI/HUD editor, level/terrain editor, and global game editor (and whatever else might be appropriate.). These would all be simple and accessible within the program, as well as consistent. For example, you create a cool model and put it in the map. But later you want to change it. So you do, and the program automatically updates the model in each map it was put in. Stuff like this would be important! There is absolutely NO stock content as this emphasizes user-generated content through its editors, while still being entirely GUI based, meaning NO CODE AT ALL! All simple-to-understand buttons and sliders and such. Also note that the program engine for all your games would utilize great graphics compatible with modern systems as well as an advanced physics engine like Havok or PhysX.

Model Editor This would also be simple, as it would not be a modeling program with multiple windows. Instead, it would be a WYSIWYG 3D window with simple panning, orbiting, and zooming tools. It would use a set of many different kinds of primitives that could be moved around, moved up and down, scaled, stretched, skewed, and mapped with a custom texture on to each primitive as well as exploded for more advanced texturing. Then could be set up to use sounds, materials (like the sounds it plays when you walk for footsteps on it or activate it.), options, triggers, tags, and the like. Then saved directly to the editor. Note for modeling, a scale ratio character can be enabled or disabled within to give a size comparison. Normal scale of character would be as tall and big as a fit built human male of the age of 30.

Texture Editor This is simple. You are given multiple kinds of material layouts such as wood, liquid, metal, dirt, grass and such. Then, using these, you can change their color channels to look just how you want. After wards, you can use special paint brushes applied with colors to add effects to the texture based on the chosen brush. Then there are cutter brushes that add non-colored effects, such as bullet holes, wall scratches, scorch marks, and more. The texture is rendered seamless using a special repeat-tiled texture interface. The texture can then be saved to use on a model or map material.

Sound/Music Editor This editor uses different types of instruments and primitive sound pieces, to be used in a music sequencer. The sounds are placed on a timeline and a tempo is set up along with pitch modulation slider(s) and reverberators. The same is done with instruments to create music. The sound is then saved and can be used later for models, materials, and others.

Character Editor This is easiest of all. All you do is choose different body pieces, change their shape and scales, stretch them or skew them, and apply a skin color using the built in tools. The face can be changed to look the way you want, such as shape, eyes and eye color, hair type and hair color, facial hair, etc. Male or female, or even no gender at all, like a robot, alien, or zombie, can be made. Then you chose the clothing types such as shirt, shoes, pants, gloves, belt, hat/helmet, facial wear like goggles or a mask, and others too. These are textured using textures you make within the editor the same way the normal texture editor works. Skin effects, like blood, scars, and zombie deterioration are available as well, even for apparel. Settings can be changed like the AI behavior, animations, sounds, stats, weapon(s), and dropped items. Each can be enabled or disabled as well as changed entirely. Characters also can have options for gibbing such as gib amount, shapes, material, colors, blood/particle trails, and the like. Once again, it can be saved directly to your custom library.

Particle Editor You start by choosing the type of particle effect like emission for fire and such, or explosion, or particles for blood or splashing, etc. Then you can change the animations such as speed, amount of particles, directions, size, and intensity through a system of sliders and counters. Then you can chose the colors and the way the colors work with transitions, such as if the particle changes color like from red, to dark red, to black. Then you can save it. They can be used in the settings of other objects like model explosions and character impact or even weapon muzzle flashes.

Weapon/Item Pickup Editor This is sort of like the layout of the character editor, but uses different parts for weapons. It would contain parts to use such as for the body, the stock, the clip, the handle, the attachments (if any.), the barrel, and others and even the positions of each. Then the built in texture editor like the normal one lets you texture it. However this is more different as it has set textures to add effects to and change the colors of because the guns and special model parts that give detail which need to be pre-textured for the program. Then the settings can be changed like sounds, particles (for muzzle flashes, smoke, and tracers.), the starting and max allowed ammo, reload (games like Quake or Unreal don’t use reload.), reload clip max (how much a clip can hold if reload is enabled.), animations, and others like the way it looks and animates in the game for when you pick it up. Hands can also be changed such as if you want visible hands, skin color, skin effects, gloves and material (like metal armor, cloth, etc.), gloves color, arm wear material and color, and even weapon position, such as if the weapon is on the right side, the center, or the left side of the screen as well as what hand holds the gun. The same is done for ammo and pickups except ammo has to be assigned to the gun. Special primitives like the model editor are given to model and customize like before to create pickups like health, armor, keys, objective items, special power-ups, and more. Save to library.

Menu GUI/HUD Editor This would be partially like the texture editor, but would not use a set of materials. Instead would use sets of shapes that can be edited with material “styles” that can be customized such as colors, effects (like scratches, blood, hologram, static, etc.), and shapes. You can create health bars, numeric, boxes and outlines, etc. Then you can change their sprite animation effects to give a cool look like glowing or static. Save to library.

Cut-scene/Animation Editor This works with the same timeline sequencer system as the sound editor, except you control your objects and characters on a custom level you create. You create their paths and animations, and place them on the timeline to work. You can create the duration of each segment and also add your own dialogue. Cut-scenes may also be used as menu backgrounds. Save to library.

Level/Terrain Editor This works like a grid-based editor, except for a few things. You can orbit around the full view of the level while moving and editing to get a good view. You also paint the terrain more professional in a way to get a better shape than just squares. You can use multiple brush shapes for level buiding as well as terrain building brushes that allow hills, cliffs, and slopes. Zones can be added and edited to allow triggers, water cubes (a placed water cube will fill its grid segment with water, even allowing floating water!), sound triggers, and cut-scene triggers. Using the materials you created, you can paint floors, walls, and architecture. Everything you’ve created can be used and placed, such as models, characters, weapons, player spawn, item pickups, and particles. Test level mode is also available.

Global Game Editor The global game editor lets you finish your game with its level layout order, menus, HUD placements, music and background ambience, and the game controls. You can create the player’s character, choose settings for starting health, max health if any, gravity, jump height, stats, weapon slots, starting weapon if any, sounds, footsteps for material types, and others. Game cheats can be created as well as power abilities, like plasmids or force powers. These can be limited by making them only accessible through a pickup, or entering a level. Power-up pickups can be created like invincibility or mega health but that’s for items. Another important feature is a game map editor. What this does is let's you create a map of the game's levels and how they react like connections allowing to and from levels, going into a level, being able to travel back to another level, and such. Finally, when everything has been put together, you can create a manual .PDF using a text editor and image thumbnails you can create from the library object editors for your content to give them descriptions. Then you build the game package .EXE.

This is the kind of program that should have been created YEARS ago. I’m surprised TGC has never done this before! So this was my program idea pitch. I hope at least one of you takes this into consideration, because if this becomes a reality, I will most certainly buy it! And I’ll bet you a million bucks (not literally!) that this would sell big, and I mean BIG. Plus, think of the possibilities! Who knows what games we could see from this? So please, don’t do it for me, do it for ALL of us!

-Gibbagobba

All ready working on it. See link below.

S3DGE/E/W can be used without needing to code?

Yes, that is the primary goal of the project. In fact, its planned to also include Procedural Modular Entity Construction for creating unique Game Assets (for those of us challenged with creating Art).

Awesome! How far is it right now?

Short Answer: One cannot make a game with it without coding.

Long Answer: S3GE has most of the core libraries in place to become a fully operational game engine. Many Core Systems such as GUI, Networking, Scripting, Particle Effects, are functional. However, development on the High Level Systems such as Modular Entity Construction has not started. These systems require lots of work (aka Design, Programming, and Testing) and im currently working on these solo.

I just bought it, it's called Little Big Planet 2.

lol
yeah, love it, but just cant get the hang of it yet...

Im sorry if i seem to be a skeptic.... Whats the short cut if you have to learn to use a multitude of tools and learn a predefined system when you compare that to using a programming language, modeling/ texturing software, and audio software? Honestly it seems the same thing is accomplished by cutting and pasting routines/functions and learning to model. It doesnt matter how you slice it: To get the true unique genuine game you have to learn to code in a language. If you want to take the easy way out use fps, or any other game maker available.

Im not trying to say that these are the easy way out... hear me out.

Consider this. A game maker is a tool that makes things easier to put together and takes up the backbone of the the work. Technically these interfaces might take out 70% of the work... but also take out the choices in features. In a game creator the more open ended you make it the more powerfull you make it... but the harder it is for the user to learn. The easier it is to learn the harder it is to add functionality. When you make it so complex that a user has to read a manual to figure out how to use it... whats the point? They may as well pick up a good book on c++, learn a modeling tool, and either learn how to write music, or contract someone. Techlord... im not saying that your product isnt going to solve alot of the 'middle of the roaders' needs. Im just saying that its always going to be a physical impossibility to create the cure all game creator as long as pc's cant read peoples minds. Either people have the drive to learn what it takes to take advantage of hardware through programming and hard work or they want to create as hobbyists for thier own personal pleasure. No big deal.

Overall:
If you want to take full advantage of the power of your pc,create limitlessly and make the gem game of your neighbors dreams(hopefully shes hot!!) Then learn to program, get a modeler (or learn to model), and get someone to write music (do it yourself!) and conquer the indie industry.... any other method will always fall short. Consider what happens when the tech that your game creator supports becomes outdated..... youll always have to wait for someone else to update the software so that you can create cutting edge cookie cutter games.

To be fair. There are a number of us. Me included. That want to create games just to create games. This is great. There are easy solutions for us. FPSC, techlords creation...(which i havnt checked out...)... these are all quick and easy satisfying ways to create. All with different difficulties of use.

One other thing to think about.... if your creating for windows your actually creating with a set of tools already built by someone else... dx open gl.... windows gui itself... your still riding on the backbone of other people just like a set of predifined classes. DX was created to simplify access to hardware. Its still possible to go even farther and write your own driver sets.... (not recommended... dx has it down pretty good.)

My point is you can get as in depth as you want. A quick and easy fix is always going to fall short of a labored endeavor.... but it will be faster. Programming knowledge is always going to get you were you want... fast and easy is always going to get you the bare minimum.

EDIT:
re reading your initial post... what your describing seems more like a bundled set of software... with the exception of a compiler. Look into blender.... it seems that actually fits most of your needs. It has a game engine, modeling, texture, rendering, composition.... basically everything except extensive audio editing support.... really check into it.

I agree with Primal Beans (interesting sentence ),
There is no easy way to make computer games. You can use "game-makers" and things like little big planet (which is pretty incredible btw) but you'll still have to put a lot of work in to learn how to use that software and build your game, and at the end of it you have useless knowledge whereas if you learn a programming language you can build on what you've learned and make better games that are closer to your visions. It's more work and slower to get a game finished but in the long run you will be a better game developer and make better games than you ever could with a game-maker.

same story ive heard, but thats not the thing i was going for. im going for the idea of a versatile engine that helps those of us who cant code

anyone can code... you just have to learn. There are tons of online resources free for use... you just have read them.

@OBese87
Thats really amazing that i made any kind of sense when i posted that.... can you guess why my head hurts today??

I believe you can bolt a GUI on top of anything and that includes using a GUI to generate code underneath. That is what modern day Editor Applications are all about. Some people just work better with pictures than words, I think that what middle of the roaders are looking for in menus, buttons, sliders.

I agree. Gui's take the legg work out of the redundant part. My point is technology is always changing and it would be hard to create a gui that isnt going to get left behind in a year especially if you dont have a team thats keeping everything up to date. I was just looking through all the releases of dx9.... there are a ton. Even microsoft was having to update constantly to keep dx usable.

What i mean is: Something like this will definately be usable and feasable, but your not going to make top shelf stuff with even the best editor, but youll be able to satisfy most hobbiest interest.

Anyway ill give your project a look Techlord.

That is exactly the challenge of Gibba Gobba's proposal. To create an integrated Game Maker Suite a single hobbyist can use to make top shelf stuff, without coding, within a decent time-frame. There is definitely a market for one and it isn't that far out of reach. TGC Products are extremely close.

It's the evolution of the Game Maker and the question isn't when its going happen, but, who is going to make it happen...

Clever... (im serious.) I guess your right. I guess for someone like me (Im not very good at programming.) who wants go to the length of learning to program, it might be easy to be sceptical about a game maker. I gues it just seems threatening lol.

Actually, there are many Game Makers all ready available, however, they are not specifically developed for the hobbiest game developer market.

In my opinion, the coding is NOT the greatest challenge in Game Development. For the most part, programming at the lowest level {variables, operators, conditional statements, jump labels, etc} hasn't changed much in decades. In fact, most of the technological breakthroughs at the higher levels, are still built on top of 30 year old school programming instructions with just more and faster processors.

In my opinion, the creation of unique media designed specifically for ones game is the greatest challenge in Game Development. This is the area where the innovation in Game Maker software would have the greatest impact. A Non-Artists' Game Designer... Perhaps, we should start looking at ways to fill in the human resource and artistic talent gaps with Computer AI.

There are no shortcuts.

If you don't know some measure of coding, you don't know the limitations. If you don't know some measure of art (and no coding), you don't know how long things take to do or how they can be integrated.

Really, if you don't know at least parts of every discipline in the industry, you won't be a good game designer.

Ideas are a dime a dozen. Everywhere. Chances are other people have already thought of YOUR particular idea, albeit in another shape, and if they're not already working on it, they might do so in a month or so.

Period. An architect can't draw a house without engineering knowledge, or the house might fall on itself from the weight of the materials used. Similarly, a game designer needs to know the materials, constraints and requirements of game construction.

It's really as simple as that. So if you don't want to learn how to program, do art or perform the other tasks of the trade, you won't be a good game designer either.

Some people just work better with pictures than words, I think that what middle of the roaders are looking for in menus, buttons, sliders.

I find this thread to be one of the most intriguing in the forums, because a great majority of us here at TGC, came to this place initially searching for such a Game Maker. Who is willing to challenge the Game Development Paradigm and produce a Game Development Platform so simple even a 10-year-old could pick it up and play?

It is not impossible. We have seen the likes of 3D Gamemaker, Video Game Tycoon (), and other point & click game makers. IMO, these products are very close but fall short due to lack of in openness and modularity. They simply were not designed to evolve with the Developers, nor the Players.

FPSCreator was one of the inspirations for what I visualize in the ultimate Game Maker. It provides a variable degree of complexity that one has the option to expose themselves too as their game development skill evolves. Beginners can use the prefabs to start building. When ready they can dig into the scripting for more customized features. The Media Packs keep a steady flow and variety of media to choose from.

FPSC does a very good job at rapidly producing quality First Person Shooters, so why not develop a MMOCreator, RPGCreator, RTSCreator, FighterCreator, SportsCreator, PuzzleCreator, and so on? This was the question I asked myself a bazillion times before I figured out what DOSP was actually going to be.

"Our goal is to provide a Free, Open Source, High Performance, Modular Game Engine that will allow DGDK Game Developers to dive immediately into the Game Content Creation and experiment with various game mechanics without the need to alter source code." That quote is taken directly from the DOSP Thread and my strategy for achieving this revealed within.

For a non-coder game engine, I am very surprised no one brought up Blender. I know people whine about it being too complex but it's totally worth it to learn it. You get the full 3D animation suite that's comparable to "high-end" expensive programs, the game engine with pretty much drag-and-drop game logic (sometimes a little python), runs great even on a P4 with Intel graphics card (Linux helps), and it's open source.

I could go on and on here.

I\'m actually working on getting into the game engine right now while I model my main character (virtual deaktops RULE!). I\'m not sure what kind of game yet but right now I think a platformer is the best idea, Like Mario64. Maybe some Family Guy like humor. Uncensored swearing, especially when the main character gets hit. Uncensored blood and death. I loved No More Heroes 1 and 2 by the way. And to top it all off, the main character is a little anthro fox. Loved Starfox too.

Anyway since I just thought of it, I might as well document the progress over on my website and the how It\'s all put together.

The point I\'m trying to make is that Blender can handle it for the full game design, and theres a tutorial at http://yofrankie.org for converting Blender logic to Crystal Space.

And to see the Blender game engine handled by the pros:
http://download.blender.org/apricot/yofrankie_1_1b_bge.zip

Blender's GUI interface is complex. In fact, Gibba gobba is describing is a Integrated GUI Front-End for editing Game Content for a Game Engine. If a game engine is designed in such a way that Game Mechanic Modules (Game Mechs) can be added, mixed, and combined to satisfy every possibility one doesn't need to code. However, one will need one heck of GUI front end to edit the parameters of the Game Mechs, if you don't want to use Text Editor to do it.

As I stated before, programming and scripting isnt the hard part. Code can be reused and is transparent to the Gamer, however, a majority of the artwork isn't and must be specific to one's game to give it a unique look and feel. This is why I believe the focus should be directed to simplifying content generation: Modular Construction, Procedural Construction/Animation Techniques, User-Generated Content. Blender is not competitor with its current unfriendly interface.

i think i did say something about blender. lol

I totally agree with PrimalBeans:

@Gibba gobba, when I read your original post, 90% I had the feeling that you are describing existing pieces of software because I could name applications that are already doing what you want: modellers, music editors, paint programs, even complete game makers that let you place triggers, paint walls and test levels exactly as you describe. You only need to find the tools, put them together and learn to use them, there is no way out of that. If you create a new super game maker application, then that has to be learned as well by any new user.

I doubt it. If an application offers so many options and choices that you have listed, then it will be inherently complicated. If not, then it will be very limited.

----EDIT START: This paragraph is changed because it sounded rude. I got too carried away with it yesterday, sorry about that.----
The other 10% of my feelings was that you are suggesting things because you don't assess the difficulty of implementing what you say, or how huge item library you would need to make it truly customizable. In a game maker tool you work with predefined building blocks and configuration options and there should be really a great many of those to avoid repetition. When you have a tool where you can select from predefined elements, you will always find that the one you are looking for is not there, and then you either need to start creating something yourself or buy additional options, similarly to how new models can be bought for FPS Creator. ----EDIT END----

My final doubt is that you don't say much about how a game creator like this would handle game mechanics. Selecting elements is one thing but they need to behave some way and that's the part that no game creator can solve without at least some programming on the user's part (scripting) because the needs of every game are different. E.g. you say the creator allows you to place triggers, but they trigger what? A door, a light, an elevator, or simply stop the player from moving further? What if you want to make a platformer with swinging or rotating platforms, configure how an enemy should move through the level, or create an RPG with lots of dialogs and inventory menus? (You don't even mention what types of games the creator is intended for - it's impossible to make one that is able to do every possible game type you could ever invent.) You need at least an elementary scripting system to create a fully functional game, and that's already programming.

Anyway, what's the fun if the tool is doing everything for you? Let's suppose that you have a tool that lets you construct a game with a few mouse-clicks, hit "start" and it works! Will you feel you have created something of your own? Would you be able to implement a really original game, putting in ideas that set it apart from the rest?

I wish you good luck in finding a tool which meets all your expectations, but I wouldn't have high hopes about it. I'd say look at the existing tools, select what seems the closest to your purpose, then find out how you can work around the features that seem to be limited or missing. You can't take all the difficulties out of the creative process.

I have edited the above post because it partly went the wrong way and it was not quite what I wanted to say. In one thing I have to agree with the OP and with TechLord: the capabilities of the tools that we are using can be pushed further out and game making can be made even easier than it is today. However, I somehow resented the idea of a game maker which does not require at least some technical effort and learning curve on the user's part.

@Mireben No, no, I completely understand, I'm just giving a nice layout. I've analyzed the layout of what it might be and how it would work(mostly thinking of a tile-based event and action coding system like Alice) but this is mostly just a beginning idea. I wasn't putting too much into the thought at first because I just wanted to get some opinions first. It is possible, it would just need someone to put the pieces together(no, I'm not using reverse psychology).

LOL, there is way more in your proposal than just a layout and none of it simple as stated at the beginning of each Description.

Well, I believe Gibba gobba is onto something.

When I hear a lot of the arguments above, I'm reminded of the early PC vs MAC debates. The PC purists completely discounted that there were people out there who wanted ease-of-use first... and that's what the MAC brought. Well, the PC "techs" were a bit arrogant... and certainly not market savvy. Apple did ok. So...

... back to an ease-of-use engine.

There is a H-U-G-E (and growing) market for a good and easy to use engine/editor. The only trick is to make it very easy to use for the casual gamemaker/gamplayer... and the ability to "open the hood" for more advanced users. And as with all commercial software, the trick is not to simply give a million buttons for every variable... it's about making a scaled-down interface that's intuitive. That is the rub.

thats EXACTLY what i was thinking about!

I'm not sure why there is a argument about this at all, especially in THIS community. TGC's foundation is based on the need for such tools, FPSC and other products are examples of their recognition of the need.

UDK, HeroEngine are extremely powerful Game Creation Systems. But, these are developed for Game Developers, not Gamers who want to develop Games. I want to have serious FUN developing my game and that is the type of Game Creation System I'm developing. Its quite obvious too me that the masses prefer simpler interfaces and so do I. The simpler the better. As far as im concern its all about presentation and the `Make Game` Button isnt too far out of reach.

That's where LBP2 is ingenious, you CAN program things but you use visual components and objects instead of writing code.

This is just the basics, you can fill microchips with hundreds of components and make really complex logic for AI and game mechanics.

Techlord, Do you understand what was happening in that post? It was an example used to illustrate a point. It was an illustration.

Maybe I'm just older and remember those arguments firsthand? I remember PC/Dos people hating MAC's OS environment... and even distrusting Windows when it came about. Why? Because it was easier-to-use... but variable were hidden.

The success of LBP and LBP2 are testaments to the gamer wanting to create. Old-school modders and garage gamemakers might be a bit resistant, but ease-of-use gamemaking software (TGC's "bread and butter") is "the next big thing."

* thanks for LBP videos, need to watch them. Never got to play it.

Hi everyone. I've been watching this thread and been biting my tongue until I had something a little bit more solid.

This is the area of development I've been personally trying to dream up for a good while and here's my take on it:

Easier Programming?

I'm currently developing an editor in the likes of an "Iconic Programming Editor" that I'd guess would resemble "Kodu"
where you can select icons to program out your game. I've briefly seen "Alice" also and I guess this could be comparable to that too but I'm not to familiar with it. My vision here is to have a free flow round about way to be able to select "functions" and set them up in some kind of programming logic flow fashion.

Ofcoarse, these "functions" are pre-made for use where you can always code in the function that you need. The idea here is to make them "modular" where you can pretty much drag/drop or plug/play them right into the editor. Basically you will never be stuck with a set amount of functions because you make them. So I see it as the best of both worlds here where you have an iconic progamming editor using a library of functions "that you select from" that you and others have made/coded.
* Personal note: I started programming back in 1983. Like everybody else, I'm full of ideas and want to code them. But personally, I'm getting tired of the actual keyboard button push'n and having to sift through 1000's,10's of 1000's, 100 of 1000's, etc... lines of code. I'm not a fast coder and the code sifting can put a strain on me eyes. So eventually having common functions to drag and drop and not having to see every line of code through the visual iconic programming editor would be heavenly for me.

This editor will not be like kodu or alice where as you can instantly see how the program runs( well... not at first at least. I do see it possible though through simulation ). Instead, The editor will be able to take the info and piece it all together for the final programming code, a single .dba file, for the DBPro Compiler itself to compile the program into an executable. So with that, you'll still be able to use your favorite plugins within the pre-made functions.

Even though DBPro is a procedural language, I'm planning on to introduce a very basic element of the OOP's object class. Here you will be able to group up variables, constants, types, arrays, ... as an object class. You'll be able to select what data types you want in the object and name them. You'll then be able to select an object and drag and drop it's named data types into the iconic editor area that can be manipulated by the functions or other logic controls. When the editor creates the dba code, you'll be able to see that the variables within these objects will have the object's name prefix'd to the variables. This helps in avoiding duplicate names.
* I look forward to this aspect to help avoid common syntax errors caused by misspelling also.

That's the basic premise of the programming aspect of it. You will still have to "code" your functions. But eventually, you will have a library of functions that hopefully many of them will be so common that you will not have to change them. Even if you need to change a "function" to better adapt to your game design, you still have that "power and control" to do so and hopefully will be easy for you to do. I guess it's almost like having a scripting system, except you still get to use the same language that you know. Also, these coded functions can be released and shared by others like code snippets.


Editors within the Editor?

On one hand, I do agree that there are a lot of different free to costly software out there that one can learn and use to create their own games with. And on that same hand, I believe that there will never be a "perfect" solution where a software author can take all these different software areas(ie: modeling, rigging, 3d/2d animation, 3d/2d art, sound effects maker, music making, etc... ) and put them into one piece of software to make one grand game making software. I can only imagine what one would go through trying to keep this kind of software updated with the latest technology. I guess Unreal Tech FTW here!
Techlord, bravo to you and your contributors on your DarkGDK engine. I'm always keeping an eye on that!

On the other hand, even though I really wish I can stop everything I'm doing and finally start on making a game for once, I do enjoy creating up ideas for various game dev tools/editors. If I want to make a game tool that is something more specific for use with my game idea that I want to make, I will want to create that tool. It could also be the fact that I can't afford a specific 3rd party software in which is why I want to make my own specific tool.

This editor will allow you to add custom made editors to allow you to work along side with the iconic programming editor. Not by scripting, but by allowing you recompile the editor itself with your new custom editor code. The editor source code will come free with it along with the custom dll I've been developing along with it mainly for GUI foundations. Plus the dll has a couple of other goodies.

So "eventually", this editor "could" become your "almost perfect little tool". You and other people can make terrain editors, modeling/animation editors, 2d/3d image editors, etc.. and share them with everybody to hopefully be easy enough to add on to the editor to recompile with and use. Pretty much a completely customizable editor that "could" potentially serve at least your basic needs in a visual game design/programming tool.



Will something like this be of practical use for a large amount of dbpro users?

Dunno. I would guess a lot of people would say no. But this is something that is not just something I want to do, It's something I'm almost ready to release to the public. Don't know when though. As long as I stick with the K.I.S.S. rule, everything is conceptually easy for me to do. Ofcoarse I have to sell the product of it's usefulness by supplying a handful of functions to play around with and probably include a game to let people see how it's put together. It "could eventually" become close to a non-coder type of tool specially if there are enough modular functions out there created to pick and choose from. Alas, GUI desinging and Documentation, not that fun for me. Hopefully I can stir up something good enough there. Also, being that the source code comes along with it, it has the chance of becoming bigger and better then I ever thought through other people's contributions. I have currently implemented Phaelax's XML parser plugin to allow xml scripting for the graphics that the gui can use. So people could even make different gfx themes. Anyways, it's something that can become close to what Gibba Gobba wants. well see.


Any thoughts about this design approach? Did it make any sense with my ramblings?

I get your point and there will always be fanboys. IMO, the tone of Gibba gobba's introduction instigated this type of debate. At the end of the day, the debate/argument is futile, just like the age old question of which came first? The Game or The Game Engine.

If anyone is interested in discussing How To Develop the Next Gen Game Creation System for Gamers, Non-Programmers, and Non-Artist, post your thoughts in this forum.

tone? what tone?

Premise I've asked people how I can easily make games and almost everyone says to learn coding. That's fine and all, but do we non-coders really have the time? At least not most of us! Sure there are programs like FPS Creator that are helpful, but are too limited and somewhat broken. Many important mechanics and much needed game elements are either left out or messy. I had the idea of a game design software that could create even BETTER quality games with less the effort. It would be so simple even a 10-year-old could pick it up and play.

Tone isn't necessarily negative, but, does prompt challenge from the Programming Fanboys.

oh, lol. wasnt really thinking about that in the future

This is exactly where I'm at in my life as a programmer. I'm still chock full of Game Ideas and really want focus on the development of high level game concepts and automate as much of the low level work possible.

Sincere Thanks Todd. For my first official C++ project I'd say its progressing extremely well. It has the basics: scripting, 2D/3D physics, networking, GUI, path-finding, particles.

S3GE will be the Game Creation System for Non-Programmers and Non-Artist. My strategies are to 1) Use Modular Entity Construction Systems for 2D, 3D, and Audio Assets so Parts can be connected in combinations to create a wide variety Entities; 2) Use network distribution systems that make it easy for Programmers/Artist of all skill levels to contribute Part Packs and Logic Modules for Non-Programmers and Non-Artist to use; 3) Use Visual Construction Tools (ala Spore Creature Creator) to assemble these Assets and apply Computer Automation in complex/tedious areas. 4) Use a Visual Logic Editor to create customized Game Mechanics at a high level using Logic Modules.



I took a gander at the Visual Logic Editing approaches used by Kodu, Kismet, Alice. What I admire about LBP's Visual Logic Circuit implementation is that complexity level is scalable. Simple circuits can be combined to create more complex ones. Additionally, LBP's visual representation is unlike any of the others described above. It makes a beautiful game out of creating mundane logic. That philosophy is on par with what I desire to do and a majority of my inspirations for the ultimate Game Creation System come from Games not Game Engine Tools.

So for about an hour or two, I've been pondering on a approach to Visual Logic Editing. My current idea based on my experience in writing Script Systems and my plan is GUI-tize a stack-based Virtual Machine with a relatively small Visual Logic Instruction Set. The Logic Circuitry (Input/Output Connection) System that Kismet and LBP uses does appear to be very intuitive. The trick for me, will be to find a way to make Visual Logic Machine equally intuitive visually.

I do like your idea behind the your Modular Entity Construction System. I have a conceptual idea in the works where I can use CSG via the per-polygon method. Using an octree method( instead of more common bsp method ), I can apply an octree around each object. Then through the object's octee's I can quickly find the poly's that intersect from each object and then do the CSG operations. I hadn't finish the whole algorithm yet, but in a nut shell, that should allow me to create an editor to select pre-made "3d parts" and allow one to create whole 3d objects. It won't be as slick as the Spore Creator( If I remember right, I think they use a marching cube algorithm in the mix with that), but basically close enough.

Then there's 3d animation. I do have a DLL project in progress where I can now create Real "Bone Limbs" using the guts of the DBPro system. I need to add stuff like commands to set the vertices to the bones, some basic commands to set animation frames, stuff like that so I can finally see it manipulating the skin mesh. So, one could create bones/animation editors any way they want from walking/running body animations to facial animations. Manually or applying BVH data.

Then I have been working on a physics DLL based off of the Bullet Physics Library. I see and believe that I can get Bullet to allow rag doll physics. Along with the other common physics it offers, that's "another editor" that I can add to this Visual Editor thingy I making.

Ofcoarse, at least a 3d world view to be able to place 3d objects, terrains, AI pathing, etc... but that's a little sketchy for me at the moment do the nature of being able to add custom editors for anything you can create and add to it. Probably something "basic" enough for people to modify if needed.




I'm seeing my effort going on the lines as these flow chart editor's or even like the BUZZ sound machine software where I can actually move around the icons and string them up in the flow of how the program should run. Sort of like LBP, I would have input/output connectors on the logic and function blocks where I can connect the lines to. So unlike how text of code is confined in a window, I can move the whole area around to find something quickly. Ha, thats kind of hard to explain at the moment.


That sounds like it would be very do-able and even sounds like something I would end up doing if I were to go the C++/Dark GDK route like you. I say that because the concept behind what I'm doing with DBPro is that I don't need that extra "scripting" for the editor itself. I can use the DBPro code itself when writing the "functions" that will then be iconized when viewing the editor. On Compile, the editor takes the dbpro code from the custom designed functions and creates dbpro code for the logic and puts it all together into one .dba file via the visual logic that the author created/designed. Then let the DBPCompiler let loose on it. I could probably create an editor for C/C++ to use DarkGDK, but since you can do soooo much stuff with C/C++ code... it almost gives me a head-ache thinking about how I would do it. Since DBPro is a simple procedural designed language, I can work with it a whooole lot easier. And that's why I would probably go the "scripting" route as like with your idea with Dark GDK so I could keep it basic enough to deal with.

Anyways, I do like the path your taking because you get the advantage of the power and optimization of what C++ can deliver. C/C++ is in fact my preferred language. But, I still believe that DBPro is still fast enough to make good games with and with this idea I'm doing, DBPro is perfect for it. With the editor which will be released for FREE itself and being open source, anybody can come along and make it even better than I could ever do with it. That's an exciting thought I think.

I keep looking up at Gibba gobba's first post. Those ideas are very possible and make me excited to think about. It just takes time and effort. Ofcoarse we may not see something good as what other software can produce out there, but we can at least have basic "versions" of stuff like modeling, texture, terrain, character, etc... editors that can always be made better down the road. Everything always has a starting point.

* on the editor I'm creating, I want to get something like an alpha version out and get a wip thread started asap. But I'm currently working on the dll side of things to get the callcompiler type of command going and then I need to finally piece together a simple gui design to get a basic work flow going. I'll try to only focus on those three areas and not go any further to get something out soon. Even though I would like to see if I can get it to be able to recompile itself. Editor source code won't be available until later.

I too considered that Developers will desire certain 3D Entities to appear as whole entities. To achieve this, my idea was to employ several algorithms (borrowed from 3D/2D Editors such as Blender/Gimp) to weld the Seams between connecting parts: 1) merge/blend/smooth the outer polygon faces, 2) adjust the skeletal animation weights, 3) Merge/Blend textures.

sounds great... how far along is it really?

me? Hopefully I can get an alpha version of the main Iconic Programming Editor out at least by this coming weeking. I just need to start putting all the pieces togethor.

I think the issue here is that there are many people -- like myself -- who are coming at game design "later in life." As a filmmaker, screenwriter, and artist, I think ease-of-use apps for learning the basics of game design and for building a resume are absolutely invaluable. Do I have aspirations in the game industry? Certainly. Do I have aspirations to become a coder? No. But without at least small demo examples of work, how to become part of a design team? And how to learn all the aspects of creating a workable demo while working a day job and having a family? Again, an idea like the one above seems invaluable, and as long as coders and such can tinker "under the hood," I think it's a GREAT idea. IMHO.

Curious as to how your progress is going. No pressure from me of course.

We've been discussing the development of a Console over here. I even included a Non-Coders' Game Development System as part of the Console's OEM Application Package. So Players can start making their own games out-of-the-box.


TechLord's Power-Tower Entertainment System

Power Tower Specs


Power Socket Specs

That's interesting and will keep an eye on that. Would it have proprietary development at least like the xbox360 with XNA dev? Or would it still be easy for hackers to mod the software for cheating just like always with any PC game?


My gosh, how did I get "weeking" out of weekend?

Anyways, I've been hammering away on the actual "Text Input" component code for the editor in which is what really slowed my progress down a lot. Instead of having a normal single line input where you type from left to right, I needed to have input for entering numbers( ie: entering a specific vertex position or even something like how a calculator works ) where when typing, the numbers starts from the right and then goes left when typing more numbers.

The input component is getting pretty solid. I can use home,end,left,right,delete and the backspace keys on the input so far. It also has a blinky cursor at the text position and can be positioned via mouse pointer/left mouse button. The text scrolls nicely when typing text that's longer then the text box area.

I have decided that this will need a "code editor" of it's own. I really don't like the idea of having to go to another code editor to make the code for the iconic functions. This way, I can make sure it's more organized/tailored towards creating the functions properly for use with the "iconic editor". So currently I'm working on the code editor.

I'm hoping my progress will speed up now. I've already been able to implement the XML Plugin by kaedroho into the program. With this, I'll be able to do a setup file, gfx themes, sound themes and whatever else that may be needed. Also, I was able to extend my c++ dll to include commands that call the dbpro compiler.

Here's a list of commands that this dll currently has[note: possibly subject to change before released to the public]:





Thanks, CapnBuzz! If this project takes off and people start to write the FUNCTIONS and share them, it shouldn't take to long for people to just "design their game and compile" without any coding. Hopefully. Even if needed be, tweeking the iconic FUNCTION's code to fit your game design shouldn't be to difficult. Obviously, to try to help catch people's interests, I will have to write a bunch of these functions myself to provide examples of different games that can be created using them. Proof of concept.

When will I have something to show? My initial design is pretty much solid now. I thought I would have something to show by now. Sorry bout that. Now, I'm guessing 1 or 2 weeks now. I will try to keep it simple as possible as I want to get something out ASAP in it's own WIP thread so people can discuss it. I really think the code editor is a must to add.

[Update:June 25th, 2011]
I'm still at it... slowly. Some ugly crash problems arose and had to deal with them. Also because of job, my progress slowed down considerably. This is something I really want to do. Unfortunately, I can't give a time frame for anything now. :\

I can visualize the Power-Tower as a completely viable Game Console. You store the Power-Tower in a nice cool discreet area, connect it up, power it up, load it up. You place the compact Power-Socket in your entertainment center, connect it up, power it up, and turn it up.

The primary difference between the Power Tower Entertainment System and a typical PC is its 1) Slick Case Design(s), 2) Use of specific and regulated hardware/software (proprietary development at least like the xbox360 with XNA dev) , 3) Marketing as a Console Entertainment System. The Power-Socket is the poster-boy for what we visualize a console to be by today's Standard. The Power-Tower is what we visualize to be PC/Server by today's Standard. So naturally, folks will attempt to mod it for multi-purpose use like a regular PC. But that's not our problem, because doing so violates the warranty - lol.

I couldn't agree more. I have this crazy luck where all my friends can code like a banchee, but I don't have time to learn how to code. I just have the moniess

So I, for one, would dfinitely buy this software.

this is really great!. i feel like this guide could help me. After i wasted 20 bucks on Xquad editor, i thought... you know, i believe i can make a better game editor than this. maybe ill start small with just a simple level editor and keep evolving that into something better like a simple game engine. But this guide can really help me along the way

I can really tell you're putting a lot of thought into this.
Don't get me wrong, it's great and I can see where you're coming from, but there are programs like this out there. It just depends what games you want to make. (I.e. Rpg Maker?)

I have been working hard on coordinating The Super 3D Game Platform (S3GP). S3GP is the ultimate Non-Coders/Non-Artists Game Creation/Designer System Project. The development strategy is to build a High Performance Game Engine and use the Game Engine to power the Editor Suite. This strategy will provide the most accurate editing results and ultimately reduce the development time and workload thru systems re-use for Applications & Games. The Engine is being developed with C++. This is full featured Project open to the TGC Community featuring SVN, WIKI, TASK Manager, and more.