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Geek Culture / An after thought on why people get offended at...

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Arrow
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 18:11
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...the God question.

Now I know I'm walking on very shaky grounds here with the "if you were God" thead beiong locked yesterday, but I just want say a few things.

First off, this will not turn into a flamewar within the first 3 posts. I'm looking to create a bit of open-mindedness, so no one go off on anyone else for being or not being part of said Religion. I'm posting this (risking a stern talking to from a mod) not to cause a fist-fight but to promote a bit of understanding.

Secondly I don't want this to turn into 'I'm right, your wrong' thread either, this is a philisophical thread, not a religus one. No saying stuff that can't be proved or disproved and passing it off as fact, ok?

Now that we've set up some ground rules lets get back to the question at hand. First off, I'm not religus but am spiritual. I may not beleave every legend or myth I hear but I do listen to them. Scieance is flawed and doesn't always work but at least it's consistant. Now, why do people get so upset over the whole God question? Even myself gets a bit peeved when I see a WWJD fishes (of course that because I detest the use of religion to earn an "honest" buck). Well I think it's because it gives use the shadow of the doubt that we might be wrong, and what do humans do when something threatens them? "HULK SMASH!!!", that's right we attack it.

Personally I believe in some kinda of higher power, weither it may be a celestal being, spirts of nature, of even higher alien life, I believe there is more to our sences and somewhere out there something wants us to be happy, even if that thing is a refection of ourselves.

That all I have to say, not really worth started a new topic over but I figured what the hell. And remember, no extream points of view that use flame starting arguments allowed, (aka God does/doesn't exist).


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
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Eric T
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 18:28 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 18:37
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Well it just proves that religion is a very touchy subject with some people. Me personally i am athiest and i do not belive in a god or religion, and that is the way that i choose to live my life. Some people belive in a being, or many beings that persuade everything in the known world, and they have they're rights to do that, and i don't mind it as long as they keep that damned god/jesus/resurection sh*t away from me.

Of course i am persicuted in my own family for my beliefs in no god, because my mother is highly catholic, and i was also born on Dec. 25, thus making them think i am some jesus. All i can say to that is, "So i was born on the same day as a holy figure, big F*ckin deal (sarcasm)"

Now as for my feelings on the Catholic Religion itself, I think it is full of boy fondeling preists and a messy bible, nothing against the catholic's themselves, but your preists have happy hands.

But catholics aren't the religion i hate the most, Mormons, I can't stand them. Women being forced to wear f*cked up looking underware, familys paying 10% a year of there salary, and more kids then a orphanage in each house. Trust me, till you have to live on the same block as them, you have no idea how much unlike a religion this is, it is on the lines of a cult. Hell i'm waiting for them to start sacraficing any woman who hasn't had 2 children by the age of 19. In the county i live in (Tooele County) we have the highest teen pregnacy rate in the country, all cause these mormons think they're women should have many children. I have a 19 year old freind who already has 3 kids and a husband, because of the church (she has left the church since). Oh, and lets not forget the mormons and the main street plaza, thinking they control everything, hell i've been arrested they're twice now in 2 months.

And all cause they're beliefs have them do this...its sick.


@#EDIT#@ Not intended to be flamebait... but im' shure it'll be becuase god and relegion is a touchy subject (kinda oxymoronic..lol)

A Dream is a Dream unless it is Real
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spooky
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 18:42
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I too do not believe in God am not religious in any form whatsoever. The only time I enter a church is for weddings, funerals and christenings because it is the done thing for some reason (and there is usually a pub nearby )

I can tolerate religion except when Jehova Witness freaks keep ringing my doorbell, usually very early on Saturdays and Sundays and start spouting a load of rubbish. I am 'that' close to telling them to f?#$ off sometimes but it is not in my nature to offend.

If your mansion house needs haunting, just call Rentaghost!
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 18:44 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 18:45
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Greets,

Usually I avoid posts like this. As in the vast majority of the time a response would only create lash-backs and nobody would be listening anyhow. But by the nature of your "no-flame" attitude I thought it right to post.

I'm not sure whether you're more into scientific fact or philosophical wisdom, so I'll try to keep it general.

It could be observed, that people for as far back as history goes believed in something -- beit God, aliens, etc. This presents an interesting idea. If there was a "first mover" who created everything or perhaps just us, it seems that whomever this was placed inside each person a "need" to know who the creator is. This makes sense right? If this "first mover" created absolutely everything about us down to the finest element, including our emotions and thought process, then believing that the "first mover" put a "need" there isn't so hard to believe. Why else would people for as far back as we can record worship things? If it was something that was just trendy then it would of been around for awhile and vanished, like disco.

This might make people angry thinking about it as we like to feel like we're master of everything, but if there was a "first mover", well, then your acknowledging there's something more powerful than yourself.

Ever hear the line? :
"I brought you into this world! I can take you out!

Of course, all of the above makes complete sense only if you believe in a first-mover.

And there are many other things I considered about this very subject, as I determined that if life was just an "accident" and there was nothing, well, what's the point to life? Why bother to strive for anything? And at the same time, I refused to believe something on blind faith.

Both Science and Math convinced me of what the truth is, and I would be happy to continue if you would like. (from a purely objective and factual standpoint)

Thanks for your time.
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Ian T
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 19:17
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I'm somewhat religious. I'm a creationist in the way that I find it ridiculous that life is an accident. I think something created us, and/or put us here, and perhaps is still watching/controlling us now. Furthermroe I believe there is some underlying power or plane of existence, a spiritual level so to speak, which basically encompassess angels/fate/luck/'real magic'/etc.

That dosen't mean I think there are 'no coincidences'-- something has to be pretty bloody weird for me to attribute it to anything other than chance .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 20:19
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We just wonder why we are here, and because we don't know, we have to come to some fairly outragious conclusions. Mine are all based on facts. That's why I don't like peoples opinions when they are talking about faith. Everything that I know has been proven scientifically. If faith comes into a discussion, it has a slight chance that it might alter my perception of my own existence, my mind slaps me in the face, and says "You mustn't allow these unknowns to alter your perception of reality, otherwise you are on the road to paranoia, and mental instability" I think that's why I see religious people as slightly mad.

Pincho.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 21:30 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 21:32
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One major thing remains true and troubled me a great deal initially. It is this:

It really doesn't matter what you, I, or anyone else believes. What we "believe" does not change what is real. We can believe the sun doesn't come up in the morning, but in absolute fact, it does. Just because we believe doesn't make it true. All it means is that we deceived ourselves.

This is true for everything. And I would ask this:

How do you know you're right? How can you be sure without a shadow of a doubt that you're correct? Is what you believe founded on anything solid, or was it something you made up? Was the founder of the "faith" making it up? How can you be absolutely sure they weren't?

This applies to everyone.

And to atheists I would ask this. How can you be so sure we happened by accident? The hard-core evolutionists went silent with the invention of the nuclear microscope. They thought a simple cell was just a blob of jelly. But... When they examined it with a nuclear microscope, they found that each simple cell contains thousands of "machines" (as they call them) that make that single cell function. If the machines don't work, the cell can't live. And your body is composed of trillions of cells. That alone makes it mathematically impossible that we happened accidentally. And the only alternative to the evolution idea is the "intelligent design" idea, and scientists don't want to acknowledge that, obviously.

Discovery channel did a study on human mitochondria. They found that our mitochondria are so similar that at one point (not far back) the human race had to only consist of 1 or a few families at most. They said something catastrophic had to have happened that nearly erased human-kind from the planet. And it had to of happened within that past 5000 or so years. The Bible and most faiths talk of a flood the wiped out all of the human race - except Noah and his family.

Science is slowly proving that the recorded events of the bible are accurate. Because physical and scientific evidence is largely in favor of a creator, I would make this challenge:

Prove to me that a creator doesn't exist.

I've noticed a hostility towards "religion" and that is fine, because I don't do religion either. I do truth and fact. If God is truth and fact, then I'll accept that. What God has to say must be pretty important. (if indeed it is true that there is a God)

But let's ask this. If I don't accept it, does it change anything? It doesn't change what's real and what's not. Therefore I have to live with the consequences, whatever those may be.

I welcome any feedback. I'm not afraid to research any topic that will result in the surfacing of the truth.
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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 22:08
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1. So it turned into Flamebait on the second post

2. Liquidz, If a very small percentage of wayward priests means they are all wayward priests, what does that make you as an internet user?

3. Being born on December 25th, means you were born on a pagan festival day, JC was not born in December. Ironically, that's a scientifically proven fact.

4. In the original thread, all the flaming came from atheists. There were no condemnations of atheist _______ (Insert your own defamatory noun) at all. Arrow asked a non-denominational question to which the masses rose up and mocked those who do have beliefs.

5. Science does not conclude where mass (as in matter, not the Sunday morning kind) originated. In fact, science is totally clueless as to where everything started. The Big Bang is a theory on where life started, but nobody knows where the matter that fed the Big Bang was created. Unfortunatley, anyone who places their beliefs in scientific fact has no starting point. Does that mean they don't exist?

6. Genesis is based on science and fact. If you haven't worked that one out, you're not qualified to comment on religion because you haven't understood the basics. Kinda like driving a car without knowing you need petrol.

I think point 6 will lead to someone making a fool of themselves. Let's wait and see.

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BatVink
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 22:17
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nuclearGlory: I'm impressed. The fact that you can't prove the existence of a God makes you open-minded. Shows far more intelligence than stating that lack of proof means there isn't a God, therefore anyone who does believe is a ________ (once again, please insert your own defamatory noun).

The world is flat, and Mercury cures illness. Toast causes cancer and it will be sunny tomorrow. You can't surpass data transfer of 200 Mhz, and copper telephone lines can't exceed 56K bandwidth. The scientists have spoken, it must be true.

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mog_squad
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 22:40
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Liquid snake, I know your pain...

I live next to poligimist...

God sucks. That is, if he were real... See, im deep like that, man... very deep...

DONT @$#%#@$% MESS WITH ME! I'll kupo your @$$!
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the_winch
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 22:42
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Quote: "I welcome any feedback. I'm not afraid to research any topic that will result in the surfacing of the truth."


Some links.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-chromosome_Adam
http://www.bmb.leeds.ac.uk/illingworth/6form/index.htm

You will never find the truth without some sort of time machine, and be carefull watching the discovery channel it's easy to make a tv show say what you want because the maker supplies both the for and against arguments.
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the_winch
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 22:50
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Quote: "Toast causes cancer"


I new someone at school claimed to be related to some bloke that resarched that. I think it was burnt toast unsurprisingly, burn practically anything and it will give off carcinogens.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 22:52
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@BatVink: Thanks, I know exactly what you're saying.

@the_winch:
I am reviewing your links. I will post back.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:24 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 23:36
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Link: http://www.bmb.leeds.ac.uk/illingworth/6form/index.htm

It immediately states: "Aerobic metabolism didn't appear overnight, but evolved gradually over several billion years as primitive fermentative cells adapted to the exhaustion of raw materials, and the appearance of oxygen in the earth's atmosphere."

And then it builds from there. There are some problems with this. Where did the primitive fermentative cells, raw materials, oxygen, and earth all come from? We're trying to figure out the start point and this seems to be half way through the process already.


Link: http://www.bmb.leeds.ac.uk/illingworth/6form/index.htm

"A comparison of the mitochondrial DNA of humans from many races and regions suggests that all of these DNA sequences have evolved molecularly from a common ancestor sequence."

Notice the usage of the word "suggests" here, which implies that it's one idea or theory about DNA sequences. In other words, they don't really know, but they proceed to build a complete theory on top of this.

On the hotlink for the word "evolved molecularly" you eventually come to this statement:

"But the two do not relate in a simple way, and exactly how is a subject of more than one scientific controversy. "

The two they're talking about is: "the evolution of molecular sequences" in relation to "evolution" (the theory of)

Meaning that there is controversy about how molecular evolution and the actual evolutionary theory line-up. And remember, that the evolutionary theory is in fact a "theory" not a fact.

So what we have here is:
A theory, built on top of controversy, which is itself stemmed from another theory.

Can you give me concrete facts and not theory?

Also, here are some links to new science ideas, this material makes evolution highly questionable:

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/faqs.shtml?main
http://www.reasons.org/resources/fff/2001issue06/index.shtml?main#interstellar_rocks
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Fallout
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:41
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My two cents on the god debate is ...

I dont believe in religion, but I may believe in God. I'm not really sure if I go for science all the way, or if their is space for God in science. Either way, I don't really like religions (but despite my desire to explain why, I won't to prevent a flame war), but I do believe that a higher entity may exist.

One thing that is fact though is that people need to calm down when their beliefs are questioned ... even aggressively questioned. If someone burns down your church or your mosque or your shinto temple, or drags your local vicar out into the street at night and stones him to death in his yfronts, then religion is under attack. If someone says "blah blah I don't believe in god and you're stupid for worshipping blah blah blah" then take it with a pinch of salt.

Some people are tactless, some people are mindless and some people are souless. Some people have no imagination, and some people are just brainwashed by their upbringing. The point is, this is a discussion forum (albeit, not one to do with religion, but still for discussion) and words can't hurt your faith, the same way someones words can't convince me I'm a heathen for thinking Christianity (or any other religion) is wrong.

So lets all try to take everything with a pinch of salt, respect other peoples differing views, shrug off peoples insensitive attacks and remain open-minded. Your doing an injustice to yourself and your beliefs if you rise to a silly little forum post, and encourage another locked thread.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Preston C
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:42
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Oooh, my post started an uproar about philosophy


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IanM
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:42
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Is this thread going to go the same way as the first I wonder ...

Anyway ... I think, therefore I am ... but what about you? I have this theory that you all might actually be physically real, and not just a figment of my imagination ... but can you prove it?

You see, there is no such thing as absolute proof. In the final analysis, everything we know is a theory. We just work out the best theory we can that fits what we percieve of the world - we know it as our worldview.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:44
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One other thing I didn't mention, is the scientific law of "entropy" and it is defined as this:

"a measure of the disorder that exists in a system"

In science, it is used to describe the break-down of complex systems into a more and more chaotic state over the passage of time.

Note: This is a scientific "law"

If we're constantly breaking down, this presents the idea that we started at a more complex (more orderly) state than we are now.

The scientific "theory" of evolution states the exact opposite. It states that we become more complex over time.

So why do they accept "theory" when it violates their own "law"?
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Ian T
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:45 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 23:48
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Pinco, I find that rather amusing. Because evolution and the big bang are not facts, they are theories. In fact, evolution is not even a theory, it's a thesis without collected evidence.


Liquidz-- Christian Christmas isn't really the birthdate of the Christian messiah. It is celebrated because it's around the time he was supposed to have been born, nobody knows exactly when. It is indeed a Pagan festival and has been since long before the Christian religion was practiced . Furthermore, statistically one out of every 365 people is born on that date, so if you're a messiah you're one of many.

BatVink-- Very, very good point. Scientists have been wrong so often, so much in the past.


If anyone is seriously interested in a completely factual, scientific argument that IMO pretty much knows evolution back to Thesis status completely, get Darwin's Black Box. It's an excellent book, with a lot of very interesting science in it-- but you don't need to know any of the stuff beforehand to understand, as the author explains it quite well.


Edit-- Three people posted while I was writing! IanM makes a good point too, scientific proof dosen't exist. Remember that 'the scientific method' is thesis, analysis, theory, analysis, law-- it's all based on perceptions, there is no proof.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:53 Edited at: 20th Oct 2003 23:56
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@ the people who posted while I was typing

I have not posted to bicker, but to state absolute facts. And if one is to assume that his own ideas are truth, and absolute truth states otherwise, that one may find himself facing the consequences of absolute truth.

I.E. "You hold your hand bare hand in fire, it gets burned"
(regardless of what you convince yourself about the status of your hand)


I'm going to state the obvious bluntly, as this comes down to one major thing in particular. When a person knows he/she is wrong, that person won't want to admit it, and will cling to their ideals beliefs regardless of how the truth is presented to them. That's why false religion and pain is so rampant, because of our rejection of the truth.
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Ian T
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:55
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Okay, now that's quite offensive. And directly against the rules Arrow posted. 'False religion' is quite rude. You know what I think of your religion? That it's false. But I don't mind that you keep worshipping it, and I won't hammer it in your face, and I will listen with an open mind to what you have to say about it.

Keep it polite and civilized .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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nuclear glory
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Posted: 20th Oct 2003 23:58 Edited at: 21st Oct 2003 00:04
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@Mouse

The term "false religion" here was used in the context that all religion is false. Or that one in particular "religion" may be accurate and the rest would be false. It has no connection to my own beliefs, because my own beliefs aren't valuable, remember?

But all of them cannot be true at the same time. Therefore, some must be false.

EDIT:
Furthermore, I will not be posting anymore on this thread. As the objective of the post has been misguided. The objective was to find truth, and the large majority have posted your ideas about the truth, but have disregarded the truth entirely.

If God was real, what would he have to do to convince you?
If he did that, would you try to rationalize it as something else and forget about it anyhow?
Is it possible that God already knows a miracle won't change your mind?

God Bless
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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 00:01
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.. but its possible none of them are true.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 00:17 Edited at: 21st Oct 2003 00:18
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Hard questions ..

Quote: "If God was real, what would he have to do to convince you?"


I personally believe if a God exists, it is too arcane to even be conceived. It'd be like the very fabric of life and the universe and would be as equally powerless as powerful.

Quote: "If he did that, would you try to rationalize it as something else and forget about it anyhow?"


We have to look for a scientific explanation before we look to the arcane. If we didn't do that, we'd still be living in caves. Proving things or explaining them with science is the very thing that gives us the technology we use today.

If the sky turned orange tomorrow, it'd be silly to assume it was the doing of an arcane entity. First, you rule out the scientific explanations and then if you believe, you look to the arcane. My personal belief is, if a god exists, it is fundimentally tied in with the laws of physics and science and therefore science and god are the same thing.

Quote: "Is it possible that God already knows a miracle won't change your mind?"


Yes. Anything's possible.

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 00:23 Edited at: 21st Oct 2003 00:24
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@nuclearglory

I'm just skimming through this but this caught my eye.

"One other thing I didn't mention, is the scientific law of "entropy" and it is defined as this:

"a measure of the disorder that exists in a system"

In science, it is used to describe the break-down of complex systems into a more and more chaotic state over the passage of time.

Note: This is a scientific "law"

If we're constantly breaking down, this presents the idea that we started at a more complex (more orderly) state than we are now.

The scientific "theory" of evolution states the exact opposite. It states that we become more complex over time.

So why do they accept "theory" when it violates their own "law"? "

Short Answer: Read http://www.talkorigins.org specifically http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-misconceptions.html and the part about the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Long Answer: Entropy only increases in closed systems. We are not a closed system. We take in energy all the time(read: breathe,eat). We are an open system.
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KNau
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 00:33
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My followup question would be: What does it matter if God exists?

If you had absolute proof either way of God's existence would it cause you to live your life any differently than you are now? Would you be a better person if you knew God existed and if so, why aren't you a better person without him (or her )?

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 00:35
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I just wanted to say that I only believe in proven facts. I don't believe in evolution, or the big bang. They aren't proven facts. I don't base my beliefs only on science, but on everything that I see with my own eyes. Everything I currently know, is proven, or I have seen it myself.

Pincho.
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Easily Confused
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 01:12
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A little telling off:

In the original thread a lot of you took it WAY too seriously and were not really willing to have a bit of fun with it, which I was ( although I'm not funny). Instead you turned it into a bit of a farce and made a God v Evolution thing and got it locked. You either believe in a god or you don't, simple as that. We did NOT need to know why or have explanations proving or disproving the existance of one.

There, I've told you off, now hang your heads in shame and go stand in the corner

You are all entitled to your beliefs what ever they are and if they help guide you through your life then fine, I wish you well.

Anyway, while I'm here, because it got locked I couldn't post this:

If I were a god I would still be second to Microsoft as they would buy me out and sell copies of me in little packages at ridiculous prices.

Programming anything is an art, and you can't rush art.
Unless your name is Bob Ross, then you can do it in thirty minutes.
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BatVink
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 01:23
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Quote: "If I were a god I would still be second to Microsoft as they would buy me out and sell copies of me in little packages at ridiculous prices."


If Bill Gates' watch is wrong, does he just get Windows patched to match his watch?

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Ian T
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 02:10
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Once again Pincho, nothing of what you believe is proven. There is no scientific proof. On top of that evolution and the big bang are nothing but thesis' in scientific circles. Your beliefs aren't nearly as stable as you think...

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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greenlig
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 02:45
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Hrrm....very interesting post.

I had a huge one typed for the other topic and then it got locked!! grrr....

Anyway, What is religion by definition? I believe there is truth and there is lie. Thruth and Lie. I, admitedly, have been in a christian family all my life, so i could be seen as brainwashed, but there comes a time when every christian makes a personal affirmation of there faith in God.

That said, I believe fully in creation. As stated earlier, there was a defining factor in every evolutionary theory that caused something to happen, there was a catalyst for change. But where from?

And what about the evolution of species in themselves? surely, if we have evolved, there must have been in-betweens, species inbetween the slime and the wombat? How then would the half evolved slime-turned-wombat live? all the vital and necessary organs for life are in the wombat(take one away and see what happens ). This would make it very hard for the lesser evolved version fo the wombat to survive, if at all! The theory to 'fix' this little glitch is punctuated equlibrium(sp?), but that in itself is really just a pathc to cover up serious flaws in the evolution theory.

Thrue to say, it is a theory, and should be given some slack. But when people say it is truth, it deserves a thourougf bashing

regards
greenlig

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
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ESC_
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 02:51
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Quote: "Your beliefs aren't nearly as stable as you think..."

Are yours?

"That's not a bug, it's a feature!"
"Variables won't, constants aren't."
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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 03:02
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Here's an unstable belief for you ...

I believed buying rolling baccy instead of marlboro would (A) save me money and (B) cut down the amount I smoke.

In actual fact it has (A) improved my rolling technique and (B) resulted in much more ash spilt on the keyboard. The desired results havent been achieved. On top of this, I think I've doubled my intake of tar.

The moral of the story is, whether you believe in god or not, rolling baccy is only the right choice for your wallet, and not for anything else (especially not your health).

Insiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide!
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 03:10
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Quote: "Once again Pincho, nothing of what you believe is proven. There is no scientific proof. On top of that evolution and the big bang are nothing but thesis' in scientific circles. Your beliefs aren't nearly as stable as you think...
"


I already said that I don't believe in those theories. I have my own theories that ARE based on tested facts.
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mog_squad
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 03:22
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Okay, im not saying riligion is wrong, but if I said God didnt exist, dont you think he'd come down here and prove me wrong, I mean, realy. If you created a bunch of peoples, and some started not beleiving in you, wouldnt you get pissed and show them that you do exist.
And in the case of the Bible itself...
Think about how much money the church itself makes...
Selling bibles...
Taking donations...
Heck, most the things they have were donated, they dont pay for anything...
Its not imposible that some dude wrote the bible, thinkin he'd make some quick cash selling to lost souls, or it even could have started out as just some normal book, like TimeLine or sumthin...

To sum it up, I dont believe in nothing blindly. I believe in Dumb luck, fate, and ironic occurances. If god realy want us to believe in him, or if he realy does exist, he'd drop out of the sky, say "Hey, im god, and stuff" do some magical things, say "Now believe in me, kay?" and go back up into the heavens. plain and simple. CAN I GET AN A-MEN!

DONT @$#%#@$% MESS WITH ME! I'll kupo your @$$!
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 03:35
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God.....see...is just highly improbable. There is no way to proove that 'Fruity King' doesn't exist if I say that he does. It's not a mickey take, it's an example! Long live 'Fruity King' the god. Now then, if you are a believer in God through faith, then you have the faith to believe in 'Fruity King' also. If he were in the Bible then you would now believe in him, and you would be getting annoyed at me mocking his name. It's very true that this would happen, therefore I have in a way given you believers an opportunity to look at yourselves the way that I might see you. But please do not be offended.

Pincho.
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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 03:36 Edited at: 21st Oct 2003 03:38
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Whoops why isn't there a delete!

Pincho.
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Ian T
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 03:51
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'Are yours?'

I never said my beliefs were based on rock solid facts. I have faith.

'Okay, im not saying riligion is wrong, but if I said God didnt exist, dont you think he'd come down here and prove me wrong'

Why would he waste his time? No.

'God.....see...is just highly improbable.'

I find evolution far, far more improbable than a supreme being.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 04:08
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I'm one of the few who believe in a divine entity and all the scientific things.

Evolution seems like fact to me, as in our own life time, we've seen many examples of evolution in the bacteria world. For example, the increasing problem of super bacteria, which have evolved in a short period of time, as a result of antibiotics and antibacterial chemicals. As many trillions of bacteria are formed every second, it's extremely probably that some of these will be formed mutated, with slight differences. Eventually a combination of these differences formed a bio-structure which made them immune to antibiotics/antibacterial agents. These are where the "super bugs" came from. This has happened in our life time, and this is exactly what evolution is. Our evolution from these bacteria is just this whole process multiplied exponentially.

Why is every creature in the world so suited to its natural environment? Because something has threatened its existance and through evolution it has adapted. Now, you can struggle to come to terms with the theory of evolution on a mass scale. It's a tough concept to get to grips with, and I don't hold anything against people taking a step back and saying "We came from bacteria??? Nah". But in its most abstract form, when you look at the proven and modern phenominon of "super bugs", it's simply a case of seeing the link, and getting to grips with how the world has changed over millions of years and how creatures have adapted to see its not that improbable.

I said I believe in a divine entity, and I do, but I believe the part it plays coincides with science and things such as evolution.

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Fallout
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 04:12
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Btw, here's another point. Ask yourself why the vast majority of the smartest people in the world are men of science? Who are we to say "evolution can't be right" when the smartest percentage of us, who are capable of thinking on a much more complex level, believe in it?

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the_winch
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 04:41
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But the men of science have been wrong before and I am sure they will be wrong again. You can proberly say they provide the best conclusion for the imformation available to them but not that they are getting the correct conclusion.
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Ian T
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 04:50
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' Who are we to say "evolution can't be right" when the smartest percentage of us, who are capable of thinking on a much more complex level, believe in it?'

Scientists don't have any better functioning brains than great men in any other walks of life. Master chess players, great artists, master authors-- they have the brains to be scientists, but they chose to do other (and in my opinion far better) things with their lives. Who am I to disagree with them? A human being with free will. Just like them.

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Great Knight
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 05:17
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My house is White with blue shades and has a roof and my house has windows. oh look i am off topic.

AMD Atherlon 2400+ XP, 380 DDr memeory, ATI Radeon 9000 64 DDR, Windos XP home edition.
-----------------------And a Katana.
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greenlig
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 05:36
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@Mog_Squad:

It isnt God's wish for everyone to beleive. With a limited understanding of the Bible and no real desire to explore it further, i can see where you are coming from. It is a common misconception that God is just a Santa Claus that wants everyone to believe in him. That is not how it goes. Although there are passages in the english translations such as "For God so loved the world..", in the context of the entire passage, and in the original greek and hebrew translations, it is very clear that God only wants his elect saved. No, he doesnt want everyone. He doesnt love everyone. Mog, if you are saying that you dont believe in God, dont fret mate, cause He probably wont have you as one of his elect.

I think the christian society as a whloe is basing far to much of our salvation on our personal efforts, on our strength to save ourselves. God doesnt have a universal love, and it isnt his desire to save everyone, "Jacob have I loved and Esau have i hated" states it pretty clearly.

God doesnt need to prove himself mate, if you are to be a child of His, dont worry, you wont have any choice

btw, not meaning to flame anyone or anything

reagrds
Greenlig

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greenlig
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 05:40
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Just as a side topic....why has history only been recorded for the last 5-8000 years? Methinks because the earth has only been aroun that long

Oh yeah, and on the creation issue,

1 year is based on the rotation of the earth around the moon
1 month is based on the stages of the moon
1 day is based on the earths rotation
1 week is based on the creation account in the bible..theres no other base for it.

funny huh?

I got best and fairest for soccer WHOOHOOO!
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Wiggett
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 06:06
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in my opinion most of the bible stuff relating to jesus's story prolly did happen. Don't get me wrong im atheist and i spit and laugh at religions, but the likelyhood back in those times of someone rising to fame just by making a few scientific 'miracles' is rather high. I mean people back in history have been very gullable, just think if we took a lighter back in the middle ages how many people would think we are heretics, because they don't have the same grasp of technology and science as we do. for all we know jesus was a time traveller posing as the jesus we all knew from the bible, and when he was in siome cave for 3 days he survived on moss and lichen an dused a pnuematic drill to escape. but anyway, all im saying is do something funky science magic wise back in and you'll have hordes of followers. Once he died from being crucified or whatever they all followed him cause of their gullabillity, priests had the real power, so whose to say they didnt fudge stories to sway things into their favour and to keep the population under their control hmm. no wwher ewas i, oh yeah, playing q2.



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Ian T
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 06:42
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I have a feeling that at least some of it is indeed rooted in history, but, like all stories, it has grown & changed in the telling .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

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Arrow
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 07:14
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@Liquidz Snake's First Post: Thanks for giving this thread a flamebate tag, next time show some self control


Quote: "Everything that I know has been proven scientifically."
Science has yet to understand or define what life is.

Quote: "Arrow asked a non-denominational question to which the masses rose up and mocked those who do have beliefs."
Corection I asked a non-denominational question to which the masses rose up and mocked those who do and do not have beliefs. Half the time I see Athiests gets harped on for not believing.

Quote: "Oooh, my post started an uproar about philosophy"
No this has been around since before the witch burnings, you just struck the nerve.

Quote: "If we're constantly breaking down, this presents the idea that we started at a more complex (more orderly) state than we are now.

The scientific "theory" of evolution states the exact opposite. It states that we become more complex over time.

So why do they accept "theory" when it violates their own "law"? "
Not sure about you, but I see highly complexe thigs as highly choatic, the universe operrates on basic ideas of physics yet it appers very choatic.

Quote: "Scientists don't have any better functioning brains than great men in any other walks of life. Master chess players, great artists, master authors-- they have the brains to be scientists, but they chose to do other (and in my opinion far better) things with their lives. "
Try to remeber that when you father is dieing of canser and no one is working on a cure.

Quote: "Just as a side topic....why has history only been recorded for the last 5-8000 years? Methinks because the earth has only been aroun that long "
Can you remember when you were born? Then why should we have history of owr origin?

Ok, just a quick question to all you 'creationists'. A) Do you bealive that God created us and us alone? A few recent discovories have threatend a few anti-evolution aruments. First is discovoring planets our side our Solar system, with that discovory give more hope to the idea of alien life. Secondly a study discovered that early life is a bit more stable than perviously thought. Here's a good question, if srats and galaxies can pop into existance without divine intevention, why can't life? We've seen births and deaths of stars it happends all the time, why not life? Why can life be the next stage of a planet's existance? If stars and planets spontaniusly exist why not life, I'll tell you why. People don't like the idea that we don't have a purpose. We need something to look forward to, something to distrack us from the idea that we will die. People like to feel special, unique, that's why Chirstain believe there's only one God (personal opinion), why highly regilous people tend to believe less in alien life than less religous, why people are against cloning, genetics, birth control, or anything else that gives us some control over life itself. Fear holds us back far to much, as Galileo
once said "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forego their use..."


DDR is the best form of exercise money can buy.
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Ian T
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 07:35 Edited at: 21st Oct 2003 07:37
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'Try to remeber that when you father is dieing of canser and no one is working on a cure.'

Working on a cure that's poison at the same time. Despite the 'miracles' of western medical practice, death rates have seen very little change at all over the past centuries.


' A) Do you bealive that God created us and us alone? A few recent discovories have threatend a few anti-evolution aruments. First is discovoring planets our side our Solar system, with that discovory give more hope to the idea of alien life. Secondly a study discovered that early life is a bit more stable than perviously thought.'

It is my belief that the-- let's say 'supreme being'-- created the universe; that encompasses all of the possible billions of galaxies and trillions of planets out there.

'Here's a good question, if srats and galaxies can pop into existance without divine intevention, why can't life?'

I never said it couldn't.

'People don't like the idea that we don't have a purpose.'

Agreed, most don't.

'We need something to look forward to, something to distrack us from the idea that we will die.'

Hardly. I do not follow my beliefs to avoid the truth about death. It gives a meaning to life, not death.

'People like to feel special, unique, that's why Chirstain believe there's only one God (personal opinion)'

Pagan religions and other religions with multiple gods' faithful followers feel every bit as 'special' as faithful Christians do.

'why highly regilous people tend to believe less in alien life'

The only evidence I ever see of this is in the Christian religion, and that is very clearly because that the Bible, to most people at least, states that God created human beings and animals on earth and no other alien life.

'why people are against cloning, genetics, birth control, or anything else that gives us some control over life itself'

I don't think the human race is ready for the power of life. It utterly abuses it, as we see around us every day. That power is not something we should have.

'Fear holds us back far to much, as Galileo once said "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with senses, reason, and intellect, has intended us to forego their use..."'

Astronomers have all the backing in the world from me. We can colonize galaxies and I won't have a problem with it. The control of life is a different matter indeed.


By the way, you've lost track... where is question B?


I believe that it is each human beings' purpose in this world-- whether given to them by a supreme being or perhaps even transcending its purpose here-- to live. I don't think the human race is supposed to do what it's supposed to, to put it that way. We have emotions, feelings, and that is the most wonderful thing about all life, everywhere. That is what these men who would control life would take away. It's plastic surgery, prolonged life, pills and vaccines, adhering to the system, believing what you're told, each human being 100% productive. They love the ideas of hand-tailoring children to server their own vision of complete efficiency and perfection, living forever, and putting a rational explination on every single aspect of life. To what purpose? In my view, this complete control, this perfect system is the antithesis of emotion and indeed even life. These men are the ones who forget that without emotion, life would be nothing but a self-serving cycle of existence, a dry shell covering nothing whatsoever.


Done .

--Mouse: Famous (Avatarless) Fighting Furball

A very nice %it, indeed.
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Wiggett
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Posted: 21st Oct 2003 09:11
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so mouse you say that we shold all follow this religion? isnt that the same as hadn tailoring children? I mean correct me if im wrong but i'd much rather father a child knowing that he isnt going to die in two years from some cancer than take my chances, but that doesnt mean that i want him to have black hair or whatever. So why cant we genetically alter our future to prevent bad happenings? Having to lose a child to some disease that could have been prevented if some stupid religious group said 'oooh no you cant research that cause god will get angry at us.' isn't a very nice thing to go through, so be like your god, show mercy to those families and let their children live! WONT SOMEBODY THINK OF THE CHILDREN!

Quote: "Quote: "Scientists don't have any better functioning brains than great men in any other walks of life. Master chess players, great artists, master authors-- they have the brains to be scientists, but they chose to do other (and in my opinion far better) things with their lives. "
Try to remeber that when you father is dieing of canser and no one is working on a cure.
"


HAHAHA i pissed myself laughing when i read that, that was a very good call



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