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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Questions about animation lag.

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Broken_Code
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 12:59 Edited at: 21st Dec 2011 12:17
[Edit]
This is just copy and pasted from the last post:

@All:
Yay! I've found the solution! Woo!
The method used in FPSC was to use the 'EnhancementsFREE.dll' included with the free FPSC source file download (in U6.6 Extras) from here:
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2000&page=upgrade6-6

And the code from the FPSC source code went like this:
stop object ObjID
set object interpolation ObjID,100
set object frame ObjID,Frame

Combine that with the 'fastbone.fx' bone animation shader and everything's good!
Here's another chunk of code to show the improvement:



I've included a handful of functions which can replace the standard ones to use the new method, feel free to use them or update them in any way, although please share if you do improve them!

Would it be possible for a MOD to change this from 'Questions about animation lag' to 'Solution to animation lag' or something similar to make it easy to find for anyone searching for it and I'll edit the first post to include this solution, thanks.

It'd be great to hear if this has any performance improvements for anybody else too!

Thanks,
BC





[Original post]

Hello again!

I've run into a bit of a problem trying to use animated objects in DBP, the commands work fine but there's a huge amount of lag caused by animating the objects, so mush so that just a handfulk can bring the FPS to a crawl. I've read this thread on the subject:

http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=189288&b=1

But it's inconclusive, if I'm understanding it right the lag comes from interpolating the limb positions between keyframes as they are not spaced regularly in time and therefore DBP must search the animation for the correct position, is that correct?

If so, is there any way to convert a keyframe animated model to an absolute animated model, and would this acctually help?

How does FPSC get over this issue?

Is there another work around, such as saving limb positions of each frame in an array and repositioning the limbs for each frame as needed?

Thanks in advance,
Broken_Code
chafari
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 13:33
Could you show us your model to test?

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
MrValentine
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 13:58
Im keeping a close eye on this one... as I need the answer to this too before I come across the same issue...

chafari
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Posted: 15th Dec 2011 14:06
Not all 3D programs export the same standar .x . Some programs export 10 frames or more exactly, and or example if our model has 30 frames, when exported it'll have 300 frames. So we can easyly make our own funcition to speed up the animation.

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 12:49
Sorry I couldn't get back to you on this yesterday.

@Chafari:
I don't think you understand what I mean, let me explain a little better: the problem is not with the speed at which the animation plays, but rarther the crash in FPS you get when the animations are playing, it seems totally disproportionate to the amount of extra work the computer is doing in animating the model. Is that any clearer? I've got an example further down that demonstrates the problem perfectly.

@All:
I've been doing some experimenting and have found that, like in the other thread, the frame numbers have a lot to do with the size of the crash in the frame rates; the higher the frame numbers the bigger the crash.
Here's the example:



The model is attached in a .rar.
Now notice the frame rate crash when you press the spacebar and animate the objects? Notice how the size of the crash in frame rates increaces almost exponentially when you increace the 'NumberOfObjects' variable. Now remark out the lines:
//DIE BACKWARDS 02 ANIMATION (HIGH FRAME NUMBERS)
SF=3380 : EF=3440
and un-remark the lines
//DIE BACKWARDS 01 ANIMATION (LOW FRAME NUMBERS)
`SF=0 : EF=19
Notice how the frame rate crash is now almost nothing? The higher the animation frame numbers are the larger the FPS crash.
With this example and 4 objects with the low frame numbers I get 60FPS not animating (that's the maximum refresh rate of this screen) and 58FPS when they are animating, which is what I'd expect. However with the high frame numbers I get 60FPS when not animating and then around 20 FPS when they are animating.

Also, to throw another spanner in the works, with the high frame number example the frame rate doesn't come back up immediately when animation stops to 60FPS but stays around 30FPS then slowly back up to 60FPS; which I find a bit strange?

This is what I (think I) know about the problem: the animations for these objects are keyframed, however unlike absolute animated objects the keyframes do not have to be at regular time intervals so DBP must search from the beggining of the objects animation to find the right frame, this is why higher frame numbers cause a larger crash because DBP must search through more frames before it finds what it needs. So it dosen't matter what method you use to animate the model, loop object, play object or set object frame DBP still has to do this search. Does anybody know if that's correct or have I made an error there?

If anyone can shed some light on this I'd appreciate it.

One last thing: does anybody know of any workarounds? Could we strip the animation from the model delete all the unneeded frames and then reapply the animation (thereby reducing the frame number) or could we load the model into a modelling program and re-export the model as an absolute animted model, or, better still, does anybody know if we could adjust the DBP search code (as suggested in the other thread) to be more efficent? Are any of those things possible solutions? Does anybody have a better idea?

Thanks,
Broken_Code
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 13:03
@Broken code
Ok now I'm out with my phone. I'll have a look at it later on.
Cheers

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Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 13:12
Thanks, I really appreciate your input!

Thanks,
BC
Dimis
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 13:47
Are you using the latest version of DBpro? I had frame rate problems with earlier versions of DBpro, when I imported models with large number of key frames. After upgrading I never had a problem again.
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:09
I'm not sure acctually. I've always used the updater to check for updates (Help>Check for updates...) and it says that I'm all up to date.

When I go Help>About DBP then it says version 1.054 and an editor version of synergy editor build June 23 2010. Is that the latest? If not where can I get the latest update and will it ruin my projects like the last update did?

Thanks,
BC
Dimis
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:32
I am at work now, so I can't see my version of DBpro, but I think that I upgraded in 2011. I downloaded the latest upgrade somewhere in the TGC site.

Still I can't be sure if this is why you have frame rate problems. I think that I had problems with a more earlier version that June 2010.

I will try your model this weekend to see if I can help more.

Cheers
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:39
I'm upgrading on different PC, just in case it breaks my project, I'll get back to you on weather or not it works.

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:47 Edited at: 16th Dec 2011 14:53
@Broken Code
I tested your object, and it doesn't slow down so much....I think that is normal, unless in your PC slows dramatically. How many fps() get you maximum and minimun ? . Try this code again



Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:50
Alright, I've tested the latest update and although it didn't break my project or anything untoward the animation lag is still there.

On this machine the lag is even more apparent (as the screen allows a faster maximum refresh rate), using 4 objects with that same example, with the high frame numbers I get 110FPS while not animating and 32FPS while animating. That's quite a difference.

So we can rule out not updating as the problem persists in the latest update (great call though, I needed to update anyway ). Any more idea/leads on what we could do?

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:54
Sorry...I was editing at the same time. Try this code to see what hapens.



Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:54
@Chafari:
With 4 objects I get around a 40FPS drop on my slower machine (although the max FPS of the screen is 60 so it's hard to tell if that's as fast as it runs or if that's where it's been capped) and my faster machine I get a drop of 78FPS.

Have you tried the high frame numbers too?

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:57
Have you tested my last update of your code?

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 14:58
@Chafari:
That's instancing the object, i.e. drawing the same object to the screen several times, meaning that they all share the object data, including animation so the animation frame interpolation is only done once for all the instanced objects and not once per object. So although this would work, it's not indicative of a gaming situation where you'd want all the objects (even if they're the same object) to have different animation frames. Have I explained that well enough? If you don't get what I'm trying to say just add a reply and I'll try to be a bit clearer!

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:03
Sorry...you'r crear enough !! I'm trying to help you somehow. I will have a look what I can do. We can have shorter animations and use the append command...perhaps you have done it already.

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:06
Thanks for the input I thought I'd solved it using instance object too but to my disappointment after spend a good hour adjusting my game's code I found out it didn't work! Ah, well we live and learn, right?

I've seen the append animation command before but never used it, what does it do exactly?

Thanks,
BC
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:11
Just looked up append object in the help, it seems to be going in the right direction for a workaround but I'm stumped if I can think of a way to use it to extract specific animation data from an object, any ideas?

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:14 Edited at: 16th Dec 2011 15:20
Quote: "I've seen the append animation command before but never used it, what does it do exactly?"


We can have our object with just the first animation(100 frames or even less) then we can load a new animation and assign it to our object....when we append, we just load the animation, and not the entire object, so that could be a solution. There are many other ways to get more speed, if objects are not in screen, just sclude objects to gain speed, or even change mesh to the main object and reposition it where it hast to be...that's ok if your object are not being in screen at the same time, and if you need many objects in screen, just use billboards if they a far from the camera....that't the way most old game engines work...nowaday there are very power engines but this is not our case


EDITED.
You don't extract animation....you have to append animation of other object, so the other object must contain just the animation you need...so you are going to have more objects with less frames.



Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:26
I see, thanks for that; it's opened up some new possibilities. However, the animation I need is all stored in the one object file, have you got any ideas on how I'd be able to get just the animation out of the file to append to my object? I think this could be going somewhere, I'll have a play around with it in a bit.

At the moment I'm just looking into changing the model from keyframed animation to absolute, I'm not even sure if it's possible but I'll tell you when I've tried it!

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 15:58
I will have a look to find out if we can extract parts of an animtion...I guess not but nobody knows. In the meanwhile have a look in this link....there's a very useful method of adding many object to your program keeping the frame rate.

http://www.telefonica.net/web2/paskyprog/

You have to look for "OCULTACION DE OBJETOS NO VISIBLES A LA CAMARA " "hiding objects that are not in front of the camera "

It comes in spanish sorry, but little by little you can translate into you mother language.

Cheers.

I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Dimis
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 16:09
I don't know if this will change something, but you can try saving your model in dbo format to see if it helps.

Quote: "if I'm understanding it right the lag comes from interpolating the limb positions between keyframes as they are not spaced regularly in time and therefore DBP must search the animation for the correct position, is that correct?"

Something that I just thought, if that is the problem, then if you set object interpolation to 100, meaning direct transition from one key frame to the other, without extra calculations will produce no lag, right? It will not help solve the problem, but you will be able to see if this is causing it, if I 'm thinking correctly.
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 16:12
Thanks Chafari, that's bookmarked! That'll definitely come in handy.

@Dimis:
I hadn't thought of trying the .dbo format, I'll try it now and get back to you.

Thanks for all the input guys!
BC
Broken_Code
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 16:15
Just tried .dbo objects, the problem is still there.

Thanks,
BC
Dimis
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Posted: 16th Dec 2011 16:18 Edited at: 16th Dec 2011 16:35
How many keyframes and limbs are you using?

Edit:
Never mind. I will try the model at home, to see what happens.
Broken_Code
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Posted: 17th Dec 2011 19:27
Ok, I've totally failed to find anything that convert .x files to a format that 3DS Max can load so I'll put the unkeyframing idea on hold for the moment. I've sent TGC an email because I thought that if any one would know it;'d be them, will message again when I hear back from them!

BC
WLGfx
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Posted: 17th Dec 2011 20:26
DBP does have an issues with playing animated models but I do believe the only way around it is to set the frame manually instead of using the play object function.

Mental arithmetic? Me? (That's for computers) I can't subtract a fart from a plate of beans!
Warning! May contain Nuts!
Irradic
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 04:12
You can use the Enhanced Animations plug-in to split the animations from the model. However the plug-in does cost a little bit.
Have you considered offloading the animation work to the GPU with a bone shader ?
The performance increase is significant. If I remember right such a shader was in the newsletter as part of the Bruce Lee game tutorial (aprox. 2008).

MrValentine
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 04:24 Edited at: 18th Dec 2011 04:29
Circa. ( no I am not trolling just think its the word that best fits that date estimate... sorry if anybody was offended by this notion but I do it for friends around the world a lot so its become habit now... sorry again)

speaking of which... I still need to catch up on reading those newsletters in the backdated group... maybe I can start a debate thread on then after I finish my current debate posts...

EDIT

Imeant a single thread to debate all the newsletters not one for each... in caae anyone was thinking it. ... I am talking about 2-3 months down the line if lucky the start of Feb but if someone else wants to hit it... be my. guest... but please start with issue one and debate it thoroughly

EDIT

I hate being blind some typos elude me... But I do catch them all... almost

JRNTexas
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 13:20 Edited at: 18th Dec 2011 13:30
Everyone wants to get maximum FPS for their games because they believe it is necessary for smooth and seamless game play. But FPS above 15 may not be necessary in many cases. Animated movies are typically produced at 15 fps and most movies are produced at 24 fps.

The point being that I have set my frame rate down below what is being produced (say 20 fps) when the game has been ranging between 25 and 40 fps. That way, there is no perception of speeding up and slowing down.

This may not be acceptable for some games because the calculations only take place 20 times a second as opposed to 60 times but for most of my games (both 3D and 2D) I have found this an acceptable approach. And believe it or not, 2D sprites seem to be even more CPU intensive than a lot of 3D animation.

I typically don't set the sync rate until I am finished with the game and know what the fps ranges are. As long as they don't drop below about 20 fps, I can still set the frame rate below that and not only does it run smoothly, but it runs the same on moderately fast PCs as really fast PCs. I always check my "optimum" frame rate (say 20) throughout the development process just to be sure that it doesn't have unintended consequences but remove the limitation for most development.

I have also found that some windows processes can soak up a lot of bandwidth, causing my DBP application to slow down because there was no more headroom in the CPU. The Windows process wmpnetwk.exe is famous for taking up to 60% of the CPU for extended periods. It's easy to disable wmpnetwk.exe and it is actually only used to look up information on music files being played by Windows Media Player. Why it runs when no music is being accessed and is so CPU intensive is a mystery.

Hope this helps in some way...
Broken_Code
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 18:13
Seems like a lot has happend since I've been gone.

@WLGfx:
I'm afraid the problem will persist with any kind of animation of keyframed models, even set object frame, as DBP can only find the frame you specify by searching for and interpolating it! So we need to find another way around that, or a solution to the original problem?

@Irradic:
I've heard that EA is good but as that method would only reduce the impact (as opposed to removing it) I'm not sure I'm ready to pay for it! That bone animation shader sounds good, do you know any more about it/how it works or is used? I'll check out the newsletter later too!

@JNRTexas:
It isn't a matter of maximum framerates, it's a matter of the hugely dispropotionate amount of work the PC has to do for animating a keyframed model. Have you tried that example I posted at the top? I get a FPS drop of 78FPS with only 4 objects being animated (with 9 objects it drops all the way to 2FPS!).

Thanks,
BC
Irradic
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 22:59
EA's does not speed up animation (performance), it comes handy if you want to share animations on multiple characters (which use the same bone setup). It can also speed up loading times by only loading animations which are required opposed to loading the whole character including all animation in a single file.
But you are correct, the plug-in does not solve your problem.
However the fastbone shader should.
It's really simple to apply,

The attached shader only uses a diffuse texture, but I should have a version with normal mapping somewhere on my HD.

chafari
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Posted: 18th Dec 2011 23:14
@Irradic

It really speed it up more than the double !!. Thanks for share...I just ordered Enhanced Animation plug-in.

Cheers.



I'm not a grumpy grandpa
Broken_Code
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 16:27
@Irradic:
That's a great shader, decreaced my animation FPS-drop by 40% (it's not effected by frame numbers either)!
I'm pretty happy with the results from that, thanks for sharing!

I'm currently using Evolved's lighting shader edited by GG to include Bumpmapping and specular, I'm not too great with shaders (I started playing with them last week) but if I can shoe-horn this baby into it then I think I'll be set!

Also, in the other thread someone said which bit of the code caused the problem, I've never done C++ before but Visual Studio's on the download, I'm going to see if I can't poke about a bit and switch it to a binary search (as suggested in the other thread), that'd give around a 7X speed increase, so that coupled with this beauty of a shader should fix it for good!
Wish me luck!

Thanks for all the help!
BC
Broken_Code
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Posted: 19th Dec 2011 17:02
OK, that was pretty stupid, obviously you can't change DBP's code as an end user, really should have thought that through!

Still, I'm gonna have a go at limb-based animations again now!

BC
Broken_Code
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 09:47
I've been doing some experimenting with limb/frame animations and the results thus far are really good!
I got the idea for this system here:
http://forum.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=189929&b=1

Baically what I;m doing is looping through each frame, grabbing the object's mesh and then later applying each of the grabbed meshes to a null object as limbs, giving the object a set of limbs that represent the frames of an animation. Then by simply turning limbs off and on again we can get the effect of animation.

Here's the code, using the same model as before:


I haven't cleaned it up or anything, that's just as it is including all my previous attempts, it's dirty but it works. There are some upsides and some downsides to this method:
The upsides:
*Super fast animation
*Easy custom animations
The downsides:
*No bone collision
*No limb detection
*(I suspect) large file size

When I say it's super fast, I mean with the 4 object example I get a non-animating FPS of 60 (on my slower machine) and an animating FPS of 59, that's a 1FPS drop to animate 4 objects frame-number independent, that makes it way quicker than the standard commands. However, there is no limb collision detection as each frame is a limb of the object and there is no bone collision either as the bones aren't really being animated. Also, I haven't checked it out yet but I think that the file size and memory usage might be quite high too?

Any thoughts or improvements? What FPS do you guys get when animating and not animating?

Thanks,
BC
Broken_Code
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 09:54
Just ran that 4 object example on my faster machine, I get 256FPS when not animating and 253FPS when animating. Just in case anybody wanted to know.

Thanks,
BC
Broken_Code
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 10:48 Edited at: 20th Dec 2011 10:51
Yep, just tested the file size of the object, it's pretty extreme; a 250 frame object is around 29MB so that kind of runis that plan.

Anybody got any more ideas/things we could try?

Thanks,
BC

[Edit]
Just got a reply from TGC:
These models work well in FPS Creator which was developed in DarkBASIC Professional. If you want to see how the engine deals with these issues you can access the source code from our google code archive. The engine is open for anyone to study.

I'm gonna see if I can find the archive they're talking about and see what FPSC does about it.

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 20th Dec 2011 12:07 Edited at: 20th Dec 2011 12:09
@Broken_Code.
I have done something like that, but instead of adding limbs, after you have made the amount of meshes you need for the animation, what about having your main object with just one mesh, and use the command CHANGE MESH to animate your object?


Cheers
Broken_Code
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 11:59
@Chafari:
Good idea, I haven't tried it out yet though as I think I found a solution!

@All:
Yay! I've found the solution! Woo!
The method used in FPSC was to use the 'EnhancementsFREE.dll' included with the free FPSC source file download (in U6.6 Extras) from here:
http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=view_product&id=2000&page=upgrade6-6

And the code from the FPSC source code went like this:
stop object ObjID
set object interpolation ObjID,100
set object frame ObjID,Frame

Combine that with the 'fastbone.fx' bone animation shader and everything's good!
Here's another chunk of code to show the improvement:



I've included a handful of functions which can replace the standard ones to use the new method, feel free to use them or update them in any way, although please share if you do improve them!

Would it be possible for a MOD to change this from 'Questions about animation lag' to 'Solution to animation lag' or something similar to make it easy to find for anyone searching for it and I'll edit the first post to include this solution, thanks.

It'd be great to hear if this has any performance improvements for anybody else too!

Thanks,
BC
chafari
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 14:39
@Broken_Code

I'm glad you solved. Do we need this enhancementsfree.dll to run your last example code ? do we have to install old U6.6 to get it ? Could you rar this free dll ? Please !!

Cheers.

Broken_Code
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Posted: 21st Dec 2011 16:05
@Chafari
You don't need the .dll to run the code, but that's the .dll that stops the frame crash! You don't need U6.6 installed, just the free 'extras', I've up loaded them on this post, just read the readme and once it's all in the right folder everything's good!

Hope this helps,
BC
chafari
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Joined: 2nd May 2006
Location: Canary Islands
Posted: 21st Dec 2011 16:15
Ok thanks . I will take a look at it !!

Cheers.

Broken_Code
15
Years of Service
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Joined: 20th Aug 2010
Location: Bremen, Germany
Posted: 21st Dec 2011 18:04
Sorry to keep double/triple/quadruple posting but I've just made some updates to my functions here, one has been changed and there's a new one, all the rest stay the same:



This change and new function will keep the models animating at the same speed whatever the FPS is.

Thanks,
BC
Dimis
15
Years of Service
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Joined: 12th Jun 2011
Location: Athens, Hellas
Posted: 21st Dec 2011 18:29
Good to know that there is a solution. I 'll give it a try soon.

Generally I don't use the "set object frame" method to play large animations, because my models sometimes scale up or down during the transition between animation frames. I don't know if that is a bug, or if I do something wrong. I wonder if anyone else has noticed that.

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