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DarkBASIC Professional Discussion / Any Plans for OpenGL support in DarkBasic Platform?

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Shuck
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 11:56
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Yes, I know...this is definitely not a "simple" thing to do....but it sure would be nice if dealing with "the other" gfx standard out there.

Or is anyone out there working on this as a DLL extension already? Just curious.
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Dave J
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 11:59
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TGC have stated that they will never support OpenGL, although there was a DLL in the making a couple months ago called DarkBASIC OpenGL which apparently used OpenGL. Link: http://www.thegamecreators.com/?m=forum_view&t=13851&b=8

However, after that thread in July there's been no word of it since.


"Computers are useless they can only give you answers."
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Shuck
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 13:50
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Interesting thread.

TGC might have to rethink its stance on OpenGL eventually...its benefits are too compelling to ignore completely.

Besides, "DarkBasic Pro for Linux" has a nice ring to it, don't you think?
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Elleomea
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 14:17 Edited at: 9th Nov 2003 15:08
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I started writing a little program to convert DB to C++ using SDL and OpenGL, to make it really multiplatform. You can see a screenshot of the first ever DB program compiled natively in Linux here: http://mainframe39.mikeasoft.com/junk/pasteimage.jpg
The DB code for which was:


And the C++ output from my program was:



But working out a way of handling variables well is probably a bit beyond me, so it'll probably never be finished.

How much ham could a hamster stir, if a hamster could stir ham?
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David T
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 14:22
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Ellomea, that really shows just how simplified DB is

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Rob K
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 14:24
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Quote: "TGC might have to rethink its stance on OpenGL eventually...its benefits are too compelling to ignore completely."


Unfortunately DarkBASIC uses DirectX not just for rendering the graphics, but it also uses it for multiplayer, sound, and it uses DirectX' many helper libraries extensively for 3D maths and so on. Hence converting DarkBASIC Professional's 3D engine to use OpenGL would be a massive task. Unlike other engines such as Unreal and Half-Life, DBPro was designed as a DirectX platform from the ground up.

In addition, the compiler can only produce windows executables at present, and the compiler itself is written in Visual C++, therefore converting it to a Linux executable would be another major task.

Unfortunately OpenGL's benefits are not really significant enough. Although I think that there would be a good market for a amateur games in Linux / MacOS, the percentage of users running those systems on the desktop compared with Windows is tiny.

Which benefits of OpenGL were you referring to specifically?


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David T
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 14:26
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Quote: "and the compiler itself is written in Visual C++"


I've alwyas wondered how they did that - get a language interpreter together then an asm (presumably) compiler. It must be incredibly complex!

"The trouble with the French is that they have no word for 'entreprenuer'" - Pres. George W Bush

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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 14:55
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Quote: "its benefits are too compelling to ignore completely"

And what are they ? Apart from being availiable on other computers, I dont know of any other OpenGL advantage - its not even easier to use.


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Rob K
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 15:08
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Quote: "its not even easier to use."


It is easier to use, hence more popular with bedroom coders. But DirectX is handy in the sense that it provides supports for all aspects of the game engine and not just graphics.


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Elleomea
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Posted: 9th Nov 2003 15:11
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Plus, there's also great software rendering support through Mesa3D, something DirectX greatly lacks.

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Andy Igoe
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 15:17
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software rendering? Does anyone still have a Diamond Stealth 64?


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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 20:31
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Actually it isn't easier to use... the Basics are just less confusing when you first start.

thats why it appeals to newbies, because at first glance it appears simpler - you stick with both longer and OpenGL has so many differences in itself that if you've not used something before you have to research it, where as Dx is very intuetive in its coding structure.
It's also alot neaters to code with.

That said they're right, for DarkBASIC to move to Linux/Unix/MacOS/AmigaOS/RiscOS then you'd need to do alot more then simply change the libraries.

Firstly you'd need libraries to match
Windows - DirectX, WinAPI, Win32 Template (builtin Alpha/PPC/x86 support) ... thats all you need
Linux - OpenGL/MesaGL, SDL/GTK, OpenML(media), OpenAL(audio), NetworkPL(networking), Bin Template (self program processor types)

And if you want to know what the Mac needs then just goto Mac's site. Considering over 90% of the Computing population uses Windows, and everything really is self contained and the keyword COMPATIBLE aithout much pissing around.

I fail to see the 'benifits' of adding OpenGL, you add to this Lee is the lead programmer and he stated before DBP was created that it was going to be DirectX, simply because he doesn't like OpenGL Programming. At the end of the day unless you want to replace the lead programmer and creator, then a decision like that is often final.
And to be honest i don't blame him disliking OpenGL, as personally i'm not too keen on it either ... and as the entire gaming industry is phasing out this APi in favour of DirectX9 which to be honest is pretty my a breeze to program with comparitively
until nvidia help to release a form of OpenGL that can truely go head to head with DirectX, i don't see it happening.

Quote: "Plus, there's also great software rendering support through Mesa3D, something DirectX greatly lacks."

DirectX doesn't lack software rendering, it just isn't used because it's pointless ... but it is there for a) comptibility means and b) because of Windows.
If you don't believe me then download the DirectX SDK, it is capable of achiving every operation in its library in Software or Rasterized mode.

And honestly in this day and age, who the hell doesn't have a Hardware 3D Card?


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Elleomea
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 21:53 Edited at: 10th Nov 2003 21:54
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Quote: "and as the entire gaming industry is phasing out this APi in favour of DirectX9"


*cough*

Doom 3 anyone?

IDSoft take the sensible stance, that the only reliable standard is an Open standard. (Not reliable as in stability, reliable as in not subject to the ploys and power struggles that a closed standard is used as a pawn in.) And ID is a pretty loud voice in the gaming industry.

Quote: "Considering over 90% of the Computing population uses Windows"


How many people use other systems is irrelevant, the fact that we're having this discussion shows there is a desire for portability.
I'm not saying Lee should convert DBPro to OpenGL, that's unreasonable, it'd be simply too much work on top of the hard work him and the rest of the team already puts in. But we are a forum full of developers, of very varying skill levels, so maybe we'll be able to cobble something together ourselves.

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 23:08 Edited at: 10th Nov 2003 23:10
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doubt it
well actually ill just speak for myself then
I don't actually see much use of openGL for DBP. Sure it would attarct a bit more ppl to it and open more possiblilities but like many ppl here said, its too much work for too little of a cause. I mean the entire world doesnt rotate around DBP, there are other 3d engines out there that support it. (not that i'm saying DBP isnt popular)

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empty
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 23:12 Edited at: 10th Nov 2003 23:13
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Quote: "I've alwyas wondered how they did that - get a language interpreter together then an asm (presumably) compiler. It must be incredibly complex!"

Well, the DBP compiler is heavily based on DLL calls. Thus the more complex things, like memory management are "pre-programmed". That takes a lot of workload off the whole thing. Also the executable files aren't created from the scratch. They use a template program (which is stored as a resource in the compiler) that extracts the DLLs and a file called virtual.dat (or something) which presumably contains the compiled code. A similar method is used by Blitz products as well, except that the template contains the libraries (so no DLL extraction) and the compiled code is linked as resource data to the executable file (again no extraction needed).

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build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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empty
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 23:16 Edited at: 10th Nov 2003 23:16
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Quote: " Actually it isn't easier to use... "

It is easier to use.
The API is more consistent. Consistency, that's something MS libraries aren't famous for.

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 23:32
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elle, sorry but id Software is one company out of thousands.
and when i say thousands, i mean LITERALLY THOUSANDS.

OpenGL is still a very good stands for Systems like the GameCube and Playstation2 ... in these area's it will never die out.
However it is obvious that you've never had the misfortune to program a game in OpenGL.

Tell me, have you ever tried to create yourself a spinning cube with a Vertex Cache in OpenGL?
... the APi is fantastic if a)you prefer C programming and b)you have a set platform your developing for.

why? Simply because if you want to do anything remotely good, even something as seemingly simple as Object Alphaing ... you have to recode it specifically for EACH graphics card using thier own extensions.
why? Because the default version is just far too slow as it relies on Software rendering.

Want to get into Vertex Colours?? Because christ that is just a nightmare.

If you are used to C programming and creating games for specific targets, then yes ... OpenGL is nice. If not then you just can't beat the speed and overall compatibility that DirectX holds over the market.

Yes the same code between OpenGL and DirectX to achieve similar result make take 10lines in Dx as opposed to 3 in OpenGL, however if you want to then edit the function in DirectX you've already outlined everything you'll need in the setup, whereas OpenGL you have to spend several extra lines creating fixxes and go arounds to achieve things that Dx has built into the functions.

This is why alot of people preffer Microsoft things, they might be slower ... but they leave NOTHING to chance. Everything you'll ever need within a function is in that function or tied directly into it.

Quote: "How many people use other systems is irrelevant, the fact that we're having this discussion shows there is a desire for portability.
I'm not saying Lee should convert DBPro to OpenGL, that's unreasonable, it'd be simply too much work on top of the hard work him and the rest of the team already puts in. But we are a forum full of developers, of very varying skill levels, so maybe we'll be able to cobble something together ourselves."


Not really... the added development time doesn't warrent the number of requests i'm afraid.
Remember that adding OpenGL support to DarkBASIC Professional, is one thing. However to make that support for another Operating System, is a totally different bag of chips.

And that is why you people want OpenGL. Not to have an alternative Graphics API but you believe that it'll give you Linux support.
But to achieve that will take rewriting DarkBASIC Professional from the ground up WITH that support.
The demand just isn't there to make the financial burdon of doing such a task worth while ... and giving Windows OpenGL support is a pure waste of time when you already have DirectX, which is 100% compatible with the Windows Platform.

Sorry to say it, but TGC are not here just to give people a product for free. They want to turn a profit, and Linux is just NOT a profitable market because it doesn't reach enough people. And those it does reach actually already know C/C++, so really what the hell is the point in DBP for an OS against a language which people can download for free along with the graphics api for free?
Everything about Linux really, is to be FREE or at the very least not very costly... DarkBASIC Professional is hardly what i'd call a cheat language.
PureBASIC does Linux, Windows & AmigaOS and it's only $19.99
Problem is you'd have to use your own Graphics APi if you want to create an engine.

... so i'll reiterate.

What is the point in OpenGL Support?


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empty
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 23:42
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Quote: "Tell me, have you ever tried to create yourself a spinning cube with a Vertex Cache in OpenGL?"

Yes.

Quote: "Because the default version is just far too slow as it relies on Software rendering."

No.

Quote: "Want to get into Vertex Colours?? Because christ that is just a nightmare."

Why?

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 10th Nov 2003 23:50
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really you've created a Vertex Cache before... for what card?
this i'd love to hear


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empty
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 00:06
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Ever heard of the GL_NV_vertex_array_range extension? Guess for what card it is.

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 00:12
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Quote: "I fail to see the 'benifits' of adding OpenGL, you add to this Lee is the lead programmer and he stated before DBP was created that it was going to be DirectX, simply because he doesn't like OpenGL Programming."


Er... no.


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Elleomea
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 00:27
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I'm afriad I'd don't share your values Raven. For me whilst creating something like this might not make ecconomic sense that doesn't matter. If just one person finds it useful then I deem it to be a success.
I never said it'd be an easy thing, or that'd it just be a matter of converting DBPro to using OpenGL. If you'll look at my past post you'll see I've already started on a way of compiling DB prorgams to multiple platforms, though I know that with my current knowledge the completion of such a project is far beyond me.

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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 00:35
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so what about Radeon cards then Empty?
you just made my point quite abundant without even realising it

Quote: "I'm afriad I'd don't share your values Raven. For me whilst creating something like this might not make ecconomic sense that doesn't matter. If just one person finds it useful then I deem it to be a success."


it's not a case of sharing values, it's a case that TGC are not doing this as a hobby.
this is fulltime work and what they make on DBP must pay the dividends so they can afford perhaps those nice luxuries of life suchas Rent/Food/Bills/Internet Service/Etc...

Linux is built upon a community developing something as a hobby by the community for the community. DBP isn't... DBP is created by a company for one purpose, so they can afford to keep on creating it.
They just can't afford to take out several month from DBPs updates just to give the 10-20 Linux users here out of the 4,000 currently on thier site, just to make them happy.

Unless those 10-20 are willing to pay 40fold for thier version of DBP... are you?!


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empty
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 00:43 Edited at: 11th Nov 2003 00:51
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Quote: " so what about Radeon cards then Empty?
you just made my point quite abundant without even realising it "

Well, I knew what you'd reply when I posted it (that's partly why I wrote it).
Your question:
"really you've created a Vertex Cache before... for what card?"

The last time I created a vertex cache in opengl, I was using the NV extension because I wanted to test it.
If I was to release something I'd use OpenGL's vertex array mechanism anyway.

And a little example
http://members.lycos.co.uk/sotmailings/storm/cubes.htm

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Elleomea
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 00:58
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Quote: "it's not a case of sharing values, it's a case that TGC are not doing this as a hobby.
this is fulltime work and what they make on DBP must pay the dividends so they can afford perhaps those nice luxuries of life suchas Rent/Food/Bills/Internet Service/Etc..."


Sorry, you don't seem to have grasped my standpoint:

Quote: "I'm not saying Lee should convert DBPro to OpenGL, that's unreasonable, it'd be simply too much work on top of the hard work him and the rest of the team already puts in. But we are a forum full of developers, of very varying skill levels, so maybe we'll be able to cobble something together ourselves."
(Myself, earlier in this thread)

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 01:05
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Quote: "But we are a forum full of developers, of very varying skill levels, so maybe we'll be able to cobble something together ourselves."


Quite probably. Blivvy was already working on a DBGL plugin, and essentially you can just use DBP as a compiler and write the engine as a completely seperate 3D DLL.


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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 01:11
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Right now it is pretty obvious to me that DarkBASIC is a Windows only product, and there will never be a Linux port.

I really hope and long for the day when someone creates a Linux BASIC (or other procedural languaage) that allows 2D and 3D graphics programming even half as easily as DarkBASIC. But I despair that it will be a very very long wait. The longer we wait for such a programming environment the less important it becomes.

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empty
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 01:14
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Who knows...

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Megaton Cat
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 02:03
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boriiiinngggg.
(thats right I only said this to be annoying, sorry I'll leave now )

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Shuck
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 04:11
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A lot of discussion here...I've been watching it with interest.

I agree with the whole "market viability issue" when it comes to marketing a potential product - aka. "develop in Windows or die a painful death"...but I also tend to think that one of the major reasons why Linux, MacOS and platforms are currently so unappealing as a development platform is precisely because of a relative lack of easier development tools for it.

To compare this idea with past efforts...even MSDOS had its QBASIC and its basic language compilers, allowing for a broader range of coders to write their first few programs. (I tended to use these kinds of tools more often than I used my C compilers, simply because I hated to write low level code every time I needed to build something quickly). The Amiga platform (very successful in its day) also had similar kinds of ease-of-programming tools, and there was a lot of development that occurred consequently.

All of this being said - I can't tell you how often I've bought into a platform...just because of ONE compelling single software program developed for it. Some past examples for me: Amiga, Nintendo, Playstation, Atari, etc.

This gives me the idea that the O/S install base is not the only reason for developing for it...especially if the alternative offers advantages that are not available in the Windows platform (stability, security, consitent hardware API's, etc).

In other words: "if you build it, they will come".

When considering this factor, I just wonder sometimes if some of these alternative platforms might be boosted quite a bit through providing accessability to easier kinds of development tools (aka. DarkBasic). Linux and MacOS have some incredible appeals for me, but I just can't afford to develop for them right now - and only because I don't really want to be writing low level code for them.

(And Java sure doesn't strike me as a viable alternative for intensive graphics applications, simply because of the whole "virtual machine" issue - aka "inconsistent performance". If I really wanted to write code for that type of machine, I'd stick to the Z-machine and update my copy of Inform).

Darkbasic is proving to be a time saver for me (excepting for the circumstances where I have to build a Windows MDI type GUI)...and providing easier access to the OPENGL standard might allow for easier cross development initiatives in the future....including porting a DB type compiler to another platform. It's certainly not going to be profitable immediately, but one might be surprised at how quick it could grow and develop as a market to the coder nerds like us.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 07:34
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http://www.glbasic.com/en/about.html


Not exactly up to DBP's quality, but it's a start. OpenGL BASIC.
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ESC_
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 08:21
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One thing that should be mentioned: Blivvy said that DBGL was never meant for cross platform support, only for OGL support on windows

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KNau
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 09:42
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Didn't someone mention that Dark Basic programs work fine under Linux if you use direct X emulation (WineX)?

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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 13:21
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Quote: "I really hope and long for the day when someone creates a Linux BASIC (or other procedural languaage) that allows 2D and 3D graphics programming even half as easily as DarkBASIC. But I despair that it will be a very very long wait. The longer we wait for such a programming environment the less important it becomes."


Its called BlitzMAX and it won't be out until next year.


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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 13:58
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If at all...


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 15:42
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In this day and age, I think it's pretty narrow perspective to only set desk top machines as possible target platforms. The portable markets are only going to get stronger, as these devices get more and more powerful. This is certainly evident in the PDA market.

While windows support assures DBpro has the largest possible
market share from TGC's perspective. It could be argued that Windows is actually a fairly un attractive system to write 'independently released' shareware software upon, purely based on the vast levels of competition today.

If TGC decided at some future point to offer a DX / GL based engine, at least that open the door to Mac/Amiga/linux users running our Dbpro / GL based apps under emulation. In terms of prices, they could easily charge more for such functionality.

Personally, before they go down this road, they should work towards giving DBpro the ability to target a DX level. The modular design of the compiler, should make this relatively easy. AKA, the compiler shouldn't have anything 'DX limited' within it. Just swap the DLL's and then add a DXlevel to the oepration table.

Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 16:04 Edited at: 11th Nov 2003 16:05
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Quote: "as these devices get more and more powerful"

And they wont be as powerful as desktop machines for years yet (if at all). And some are only just starting to have 3D libraries written for them, so there is no point doing a PDA version for quite a while (if ever).

Whilst a Mac and Linux version may be nice - it would have to be done by an outside firm, meaning it probably wont be profitable.


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 17:15
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Erm, and who exactly said anything about 3D ?. Moreover, why would they need to be as powerful as a desk top, they don't have the same display size / bandwidth ratios of a PC, so it's unnecessary.

Titles like Tomb Raider are already were starting to appear in 2002. So I wouldn't say never.

Kevin Picone
Play Basic - Visible Worlds - Kyruss II
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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heartbone
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 17:38
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Thank you Phaelax!

The more you see, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you see.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 17:55
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Rather modified - most PDA games are 2D, due to the rather slow performance of PDA's. Any 3D games that do appear will be stripped down.


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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Rob K
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 19:21
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@uwdesign

I agree to an extent. I think that DarkBASIC would need to be redesigned from scratch as a multi-OS compiler - it is a mammoth task so you couldn't expect to see it in the next couple of years.


BLUE GUI Plugin: http://blue.robert-knight.net / BLUE IDE [href]http://blueide.sf.net/ - Replacement editor for DBPro[/href]
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Phaelax
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Posted: 11th Nov 2003 21:42 Edited at: 11th Nov 2003 22:17
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Quote: "Didn't someone mention that Dark Basic programs work fine under Linux if you use direct X emulation (WineX)?"


I do remember a guy saying he was trying to get DB working with Linux. From what I've heard, he could mostly only get 2D commands working. I haven't been able to get WineX working for me, so I haven't been able to try this out yet.


I just found this on gamedev.net:
http://www.basic4gl.net/

Another BASIC OGL??
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Shadow Robert
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 01:55
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:: sighs :: i think alot have missed the boat entirely on what OpenGL is and the point in the support.

OpenGL under Windows is quite frankly a waste of time.
On the whole it is no faster, apart from for cards specifically designed to utilise it (GeForce/Quadro/WildCat/FireGL/Trident) than DirectX9... As the only exception to the speed rule in Consumer 3D Cards is GeForce, and to actually give these cards that added speed you have to develop specifically using thier specifications.

Then again someone explain the point of OpenGL in DBP?

if you think cross platform, then i've already explained you can't just change the graphics ... DBP relies HEAVILY on C++, Windows and DirectX for everything.

This is for several reasons,
a) Lee knows them well
b) They are very easy to program for across the board
c) DirectX's memory management is second to non
d) Windows & DirectX have far more openly available and easily accessable information for development
e) 80-90% of ALL computer owners, run Microsoft Windows which has DirectX installed as standard.

From a Business point of view, from the Programmers point of view, and from the customers point of view ... DBP under Windows and DirectX quite frankly is the best solution.

And for TGC to shift into Multiplatform development they would have to alter the core of DBP completely, switch from MASM and Visual C++ to NASM and Codewarrior 6.0 (or Cygwin 6.0)
They would have to take many more months just to get the basics working across platform. Code would prefferably have to be coded in C, but then Linux C++ really is C with all the limitations.
Macintosh, would be a bugger to find the information and Amiga would be a bugger to get ahold of the hardware cheap.

.. .. ..

DarkBASIC and DarkBASIC Pro <4.1 will work on Linux with WineX (works on Mandrake and Red Hat) ... however Compatibility is LOW, VERY LOW.

and as i've said PUREBASIC compiles to Windows/Amiga/Linux, the only problem is YOU have to code your OWN 3D and 2D Engine ... using the APi of your choice.

and to be perfectly honest MesaGL is actually far far better for Linux Platforms.


To Survive You Must Evolve... This Time Van Will Not Escape His Fate!
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empty
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 02:42 Edited at: 12th Nov 2003 02:42
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Quote: "
Macintosh, would be a bugger to find the information."

Erm, what???

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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Phaelax
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 09:47
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Well some would argue that OpenGL looks better. I was one of them until I got Unreal 2 awhile back. But for OGL, there is sound like Direct sound. OpenAL I believe its called.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 10:15
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Quote: "Erm, what???"

Apple aren't exactly helpful if you want to program in their machines (apparently) - and try finding a programming book...


Mirrors are more fun than television. Well, that was fun, in a not-so-fun sort of way...
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Shuck
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 11:30
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Raven's points are right on the money: it's the issue of support which always drags this kind of issue down.

With respect to this issue, software companies either do one of two things:

1) They stay small and serve their existing smaller base very well for as long they produce good products.

2) They attempt to grow larger to serve a larger base for a wider range of products, but not very well at all (Microsoft being the prime example).

I understand the dilemna all too well.

(I just think it's too bad that excellent tools like Darkbasic aren't often extended somewhere into the "1.5" range, just to see what might happen as a consequence).
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empty
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 13:13 Edited at: 12th Nov 2003 13:14
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Quote: "Apple aren't exactly helpful if you want to program in their machines (apparently) - and try finding a programming book...
"

Programming book, ok, point taken.
But their developer's site is amazing
http://developer.apple.com
And the adc support people do reply to you emails.

Me, I'll sit and write this love song as I all too seldom do
build a little fire this midnight. It's good to be back home with you.
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OSX Using Happy Dude
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 15:20
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Oh yes, just not very helpful replies...


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Kevin Picone
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Posted: 12th Nov 2003 16:39
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Quote: " I agree to an extent. I think that DarkBASIC would need to be redesigned from scratch as a multi-OS compiler - it is a mammoth task so you couldn't expect to see it in the next couple of years."


While it may appear to be mammoth task, it doesn't need to be. Dbpro is a lexical scanner based compiler. I.e. it produces byte code, then translate the tokens to exe format.

So, Building a 'Basic to C or ASM' application which's translates the byte code/token 'form' into a lower level language, is not very demanding. In fact anybody could do it. Attaching the command set is done through macro's/function calls, depending upon your target really . This way, anybody (3rd parties) could write exporters for their machine/language/engine. Providing the BK format was open.

While glossing over concept a little (nope, not giving everything away) this is the way I'm looking into going with Play Basic. But we'll see when that bridge comes.

Kevin Picone
Play Basic - Visible Worlds - Kyruss II
[url]www.underwaredesign.com[/url]
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