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Geek Culture / On Ultraviolence in Games, and the Lessons of Porn

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TheComet
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:44
Still waiting for the link.

Your first comment derailed the thread btw because of your pathetic grammar nazi behavior. I tried a few times to get it back on topic.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
RedneckRambo
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:45 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 20:47
Pincho - For someone who spent 38 years studying so much, it's incredible that you don't actually know the difference between a plot and story. I believe it was 2nd grade we learned what a plot was? Did you manage to skip elementary and high school? Did you spend your entire life sitting in front of a computer "studying?" Because that's what I'm getting.

I find myself actually getting dumber the more I read Pincho's posts. It's truly baffling as a single person has never had that effect on me. I actually physically feel my IQ dropping.

Words cannot describe my Greatness... But I'll give it a shot.

I am awesome....... Yeah, that works.
Kezzla
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:46
watching this thread degrade, I think to myself(at the risk of further derailing the thread(sorry OP)) Is there some kind of official trolling Olympics?

a series of events where cool tempered, understanding and patient people are forced to endure peoples relentless trolling tactics.

What would the events be?

there would be olympic style trials where the lesser trolls are cast aside and ignored and forgotten, until finally the last remaining super trolls face off in an octagon of sheer no holds barred flaim-bait. the victor being the last one to post.

I think there might be a new thread in this one, however this post just seems at home here.

Sometimes I like to use words out of contents
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:47 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 20:49
Quote: "Pincho - For someone who spent 38 years studying so much, it's incredible that you don't actually know the difference between a plot and story. I believe it was 2nd grade we learned what a plot was? Did you manage to skip elementary and high school? Did you spend your entire life sitting in front of a computer "studying?" Because that's what I'm getting."


There you go, read that. It appears to be my version, strange isn't it that my version is in Wikipedia? ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_%28narrative%29

TheComet
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:47
Still waiting for the link.

Oh wait, you can't post it because there is no such thing as you proving everyone right.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:51
Quote: "Still waiting for the link.

Oh wait, you can't post it because there is no such thing as you proving everyone right.

TheComet"


So that you can have another tantrum. Nah, I like to stay on topic.

TheComet
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 20:53
Quote: " It appears to be my version, strange isn't it that my version is in Wikipedia? ..."


Quote: "The cards are that plot is being used incorrectly it needs fixing. Waste of time repeating it, but science will."


Ah yeah, TOTALLY your version.

Still waiting for the link.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
TheComet
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 21:57 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 22:12
Thank you, that was interesting. I am not going to have a tantrum because you actually tried backing what you said with some information. I'm not saying you are correct though.

First off, here's an overview of what you linked:

-2009 post from a banned profile "Pincho Paxton" on a science forum
-a google link searching for the keywords "bubble universe"
-a google link searching for the keywords "bubbles around suns"

I would have appreciated it if you were more specific with your information. Anyone can google "bubble universe", it doesn't really qualify as a valid source of information for three reasons.

1) The google results change all the time.
2) There are a number of different results which can potentially have nothing to do with what you intended (such as "bubble fractals").
3) Google uses data from the browser's cookies in order to search for things so everyone is going to get different results.

You need to post specific articles, not google links.

Nonetheless, I looked and read your thread on the science forum. It's interesting to see that you're doing the same thing there as you're doing here: You're posting information (which isn't necessarily wrong in any way), but you're not backing it with anything valid at all. That's why you're getting responses like these:

Quote: "Is that Jesus (on the left)?"

Quote: "Nope, just a new type of dildo!"

Quote: "You listening to voices only you can hear would certainly explain a lot."


Photoshop images from your imagination doesn't count as valid information.

You've also been banned from that forum which suggests you've just been trolling.

I looked and read the Multiverse article on Wikipedia. The first paragraph states:

Quote: "The term was coined in 1895 by the American philosopher and psychologist William James.[1] The various universes within the multiverse are sometimes called parallel universes."


Which is clearly before 2009, so you didn't come up with anything new.

I looked and read the Sun Blisters article, which was the first thing that google spat out at me. It had nothing to do with anything important, and to boost, it was around since 2008, so before your claim in 2009.

I looked and read the Big Surprise from the Edge of the Solar system article, but it didn't really have anything to do with what you proposed in your thread.

Also, in all of the articles I read I don't see anything about the "kissing problem" you mentioned in your thread. Actually, I had to google it to see what it meant in the first place, which just shows again that you didn't back anything you said with any valid information.

Conclusion

You haven't backed any of your information with anything and you haven't supplied any specific links, just google searches. Your claims are nothing but wild hypotheses and can't be taken seriously.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:03 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 22:19
My trolling device broke down when I got here. *trolling maintenance*

TheComet
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:14
Is that referring to my post?

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:16
I...wow.

This thread man, it's painfully funny to watch. Like a car pile up full of Twilight actors. *Bella's face remaining as wooden as always during the event.*

Honestly, I think Pincho is now simply confirmed to be a troll, or a moron.
mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:18
Quote: "Is that referring to my post?"

Nope, I just saw first page and posted.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:25 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 22:31
And that's why I said it would go off topic. Now I am supposed to find all of the other posts that match the replies.

Well you can forget it. Keep the thread on topic.

TheComet insisted that I post a link, then was determined to wreck the thread. I have threads that perfectly match the scientific versions. No more links, and I didn't mention multi-verse, so forget what TheComet replied with.

Back to plots, and removing the gore factor from games.

When you first think up an idea for a game try to be as creative as possible, and also think about the things that the player has to repeatedly do to accomplish a task.

mr Handy
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:39
Pincho, sorry, I can't resist:
Quote: "Back to plots,"



Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:41 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 22:43
Bubble Universe, also known as inflation theory. The first realistic model was developed in 1979 by a Russian called Alexei Starobinsky. It predates your argument.

Now, you may wish to claim you did not know prior, but I suggest the ideas have been mentioned, referred to or hinted at or your own understanding of science might have suggested such a think might be a possibility.

When I read more in depth about the Big Bang theory and I thought to myself, "what if there's an unlimited number of big bangs and big crunches and new universes are created at the end of another?". This is interesting because later (probably a couple of years) I had learned about the Oscillating Universe Theory, also know as the cyclic model. It was something Albert Einstein had considered and it was something I had thought of.

This is a true story.

It's by no means impressive. I had an idea, it turned out to be an existing theory.

Quote: "I have threads that perfectly match the scientific versions. No more links, and I didn't mention multi-verse, so forget what TheComet replied with."


You should have picked one of them instead. You didn't care the thread was off topic until this came up.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 22:50 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 22:54
OFF-TOPIC

See 25 Forum Posting Etiquette Tips (ad ridden link; you've been warned), and RFC 1855 for "netiquette."

Quote: "11. Do not double post (post the same message twice in one thread) or cross post (place the same message across several forums)."

I've seen at least one occurrence of a double post here.

Quote: "16. Do not use someone else’s thread for a private conversation."

The conversation is mostly between TheComet and Pincho Paxton with others mostly just commenting but not contributing in a useful way.

For private conversations like this (especially considering Pincho does not appear to want to provide links on this thread) use email. Both TheComet and Pincho Paxton have publicly visible email links. However, I'm unsure of whether Pincho's email is valid. His website's link isn't, where as TheComet's is. That indicates out of date information and may be the same for email. Regardless, I recommend that TheComet send a private email to Pincho so that they can resolve their differences there.

I'm not a moderator (obviously), but I think some common sense and "netiquette" should be applied here.

----

Quote: "When I read more in depth about the Big Bang theory and I thought to myself, "what if there's an unlimited number of big bangs and big crunches and new universes are created at the end of another?". This is interesting because later (probably a couple of years) I had learned about the Oscillating Universe Theory, also know as the cyclic model. It was something Albert Einstein had considered and it was something I had thought of."

I had my own idea about the universe when I was younger, after hearing about black holes and white holes. In my head, I just figured "Well, black holes make connections to other universes, which then start expanding through their own white hole. The origin of the big bang must be this universe's lone white hole! And since we'd be so far away from it, we probably wouldn't see it any way. It might appear as just another star." I'm not saying that's what I currently believe (we shouldn't go into that here anyway), but it was just an idea I had. There's nothing impressive about that idea though. Your post just reminded me of it. That's all.

/OFF-TOPIC

----

Quote: "When you first think up an idea for a game try to be as creative as possible, and also think about the things that the player has to repeatedly do to accomplish a task."

IMO that depends on what you're going for. (The text in the following section is a general remark and not aimed at you alone.)

----

As a consumer I'm perfectly fine with playing the same reiteration of video games as often as possible. For first person shooters and similar action / "just-go" games, their story doesn't matter that much to me. In fact, I could care less who Mario is trying to save. All I care about is having fun while I'm playing the game. In that respect, I don't see much room for innovation on the actual core game play. There are of course different "types" of games and different game mechanics, but I haven't seen much innovation in between. (If that makes sense?)

As for "violence for the sake of violence" ("ultraviolence" is the term coined, by the author in the article, for this) I don't mind it in games. To me, that's just "free world game play." i.e., you get to do what you want. Saying that's a bad thing doesn't make much sense to me. IMO, it's all up to the game's designer.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 23:02 Edited at: 24th Aug 2012 23:41
Quote: "Bubble Universe, also known as inflation theory. The first realistic model was developed in 1979 by a Russian called Alexei Starobinsky. It predates your argument. "


My theory is about magnetic bubbles of Dark Matter. Go to the end of my 2009 link.

NASA link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HbJiY1wATQ

Now this is the last one so just look at my attached image. You can find links to the image from years ago, before Voyager got to its position. My first post about the bubble is 2004.

This is 2010, a Year before NASA, how I was creating the bubbles...
http://www.avforums.com/forums/12923547-post87.html

Now get back to gore in games.

TheComet
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Posted: 24th Aug 2012 23:53
[Ignoring Pincho mode activated]

Quote: "As for "violence for the sake of violence" ("ultraviolence" is the term coined, by the author in the article, for this) I don't mind it in games. To me, that's just "free world game play." i.e., you get to do what you want. Saying that's a bad thing doesn't make much sense to me. IMO, it's all up to the game's designer."


This is my personal opinion, but I think that these "ultraviolent" games can get pretty nasty and can potentially scar people due to inappropriate imagery. I think that they are going completely overboard with it and I find it unnecessary.

The other problem with them is that while I consider myself old enough to deal with it, all of us know that 12 year old kids have the power to get hold of these games. That's certainly not healthy for them at all.

As I stated on the first page of the thread, I view it as a desperate attempt by the game companies to "make something new" when they're losing market.

TheComet

"if you don't understand recursion than you probably don't understand recursion." ~Jerico2day
Aaron Miller
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 01:14
I agree that it's unnecessary, but it's also not necessary (IMO) to go so far as to ban them (just as an example; I say that because you brought up children). The issue with kids getting hold of the game can apply to any number of things. They see all sorts of things that clearly aren't healthy for them, but that's not really the fault of video games. That's life and the problems it comes with. What they see in video games is probably not as extreme as some of the things they might see in movies and other forms of entertainment.

I don't think they should see it though. It's my opinion that it's better for them to avoid those sorts of games. If they happen to see them though, then fine. It's likely they know what it's all about anyway. It's not like they go to the store and think "Oh! This game is going to be about lollipops and running away from zombies! Who's this chick on the cover?" It's more likely that they think "Hey, let's kill some bleeping zombies and try to look under this bleep's skirt. Chainsaws! Bleep yeah!" (If that counts as cussing let me know.) My point is, they usually know what they're getting into with video games. I mean, it's not like they go out and buy Rage or Battlefield 3 and think it's going to be all "Happy Happy Joy Joy!" And it's not like the parents don't know that either. There's an ESRB rating on pretty much every box. Even if some boxes didn't have an ESRB rating, the title should be a dead giveaway about what's going to be in the game. ("Rage," and "Battlefield," are pretty obvious. Crysis less so, but the cover art is pretty descriptive. Other games usually have some sort of artwork and some description telling you that it's going to be bloody. [Also, not saying those are examples of "ultraviolent" video games. I'm just using them as examples for the point I'm making above.]) Likewise, nowadays we have online reviews readily available describing the amount of blood and action. The parents can even just go to a store, possibly flip through a strategy guide or ask a knowledgeable clerk (if one is available) to find out about the game's content.

Still, not all games should be "ultraviolent" either. And, not all of them are. Some games are "naturally violent" (new term?), like Super Mario Bros. In games like SMB you smash your enemies head in with your feet or set fire to them. The difference is in how life-like it is. In SMB it's not bloody, and there aren't sounds of anguish.

Also, kids aren't exactly smart. (In general.) After Kikaider started airing in Japan, a bunch of kids tried jumping out of windows because they thought they could fly. Needless to say, many died. So, they had to add a disclaimer to the series opening to make sure kids don't try it. (I bet some still tried though, but I don't have any data on that.) Disclaimer: This was read in a Wikipedia article on the show and I have not verified the citations.

In terms of violence, my only reserve is that some designers might overuse it. Sometimes this can be fun and the point of the game though (and it's well known that the point of the game is the violence). I don't play many games though, so I don't actually have an example of an "ultraviolent" game though.

Hopefully that was all reasonably coherent.

CoffeeGrunt
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 02:41
I'm not against violence in game at all. If it's executed well, it can be very effective.

Gears of War-esque violence is just dull, and doesn't achieve much. However, Metro's violent nature goes down to the core of the dark, claustrophobic experience they're attempting to create.

I remember playing GTA 3 and watching the Scream trilogy as a kid barely into double digits. I don't have repressed urges to kill anyone, and nor do my friends...at least, I'm pretty sure they don't. xD

The truth is, gents, it's much easier to blame the world you interact with than your own mind. People will say they got ideas from somewhere or other, but it's their brain that catalysed them into violence.

I mean, I spent the entire Gears of War 2 playthrough laughing at the homosexual undertone of it all. The violence is just...meh.
Quik
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 02:45 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 02:47
Ahh, I played GTA 3 when I was like.. 10-12^^ I still remember the mission with the dead guy in the trunk (fairly early on).. I had no clue what I was doing then some cop crashed into my trunk - opening it
and there was a dead guy.. I was scared of that - so each time I did that mission, I tried desperatly to NOT have the cops hit my car... xD

Violence in games is FUN. I play Sleeping dogs and slam peoples heads into car windows, and I enjoy doing so. Would I ever dream of doing that to a real person? NO. Absolutly not, some people here might know how very well I value human life.
When I play victoria - I play and try to conquer the world, I am NOT pacifist in the game, but instead Pro military, I tax the shoe out of people - because it's the right opposite of what I actually would do as a ruler of a country. It's the "unique" possibility to do whatever I want, without actually hurting real people. Without having a real effect on anything.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
3d point in space
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 03:14
I think pincho likes trolling because then he gets attention. The more attention he recieves the more he will argue his case therefore ignore him.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
Virtual Nomad
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 04:28 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 04:39
you guys do understand that pincho wrote an application that posts and responds to posts, right? while he hasn't been online for many, many months, the application has.

the software he's running offers potential "contrary" response thereby soliciting "disapproval" which is used to define and refine "truth" through deduction.

ie, what isn't, is.



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ionstream
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 07:46
Quote: "Not quite true actually, because there's also the "something happens to themselves" plot. "


You're pulling my leg with this response right? "Something happens to themselves"??

Happy Cheesecake
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 08:04
From the Wiki Pincho linked to which he claimed was his version of the word 'plot'.

Quote: "Plot is a literary term defined as the events that make up a story, particularly as they relate to one another in a pattern, in a sequence, through cause and effect, how the reader views the story, or simply by coincidence."


I can easily view Rocky as a man vs. man plot. In fact, every movie in existence can be interpreted as one of the aforementioned 7 plots as long as the viewer sees it that way. I don't see what the problem is.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 10:01 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 10:12
Man vs man isn't a story (and isn't a plot for Rocky), and it has no cause, and effect, and it isn't a sequence, and has no pattern. The thread is partly to do with gore, and partly to do with ideas running out. If everyone thinks that all plots break down to a couple of words, then the thread is redundant. Waste of time trying to come up with new ideas if there are only 7 to begin with. But there aren't 7, that's false, because a plot is a list of cause, and effect, and patterns. So 7 plots is really..

man vs man, man meets woman, man fights monster, man goes on an adventure to find an object.

Just 7 of those in a mix make 14 million combinations like the Lottery. So my first post, it is more like a lottery would have saved all of this wasted time. There was no trolling, you were all just wasting time getting to understand what a plot is.

Then I could have explained how to mix things up, because I come up with a lot of game ideas.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 10:34
One issue with certain types of gore, of course, is that some people are genuinely squeamish to that type of gore, but not to others. People also happen to not like spoilers (some do, I suppose; I don't, but I digress). Suppose then that the type of gore that makes you squeamish (for argument's sake, pretend some type of gore makes you squeamish) is presented in a place where it is intertwined with the story. You naturally want to know what type of gore is there, but if you try to find that information you'll naturally find information about the story as well. Then, how are you to know what type of gore you'll see in the game? Listing every type of violence and gore and scene that might make some feel a bit uneasy is a bit excessive.

Still, I stand by the previous points I've made.

----

Pincho, let me discuss something with you briefly. Assume that no one else has posted, that it's just us in this thread, and one neutral party. Let's go on to say that the neutral party brought up the "seven plots" thing.

We'll fast forward now to this portion of your comment:
Quote: "Man vs man isn't a story"


Keep in mind this is a hypothetical situation, so the intentions of others does not apply in my following comment.

If I said "View 'man vs man' and the other six 'plots' not as plots, but as 'abbreviated views,' so to speak. The intention here appears to be to summarize and condense so one does not have to utter an entire story. That is, 'man vs man' and the other 'plots' are more like 'story types.' These might be viewed as basic building blocks which can combine to represent a certain type of sequence of events, all relating to an overall goal, or 'fine summary,'" what would your issue be with that?

By basic building blocks, I mean that in much the same way that NAND gates can be used to represent pretty much all logic. (You can use NAND gates to build OR gates, XOR gates, AND gates, etc. All of these can be combined together to build a microprocessor. etc, etc.) Disclaimer: I did not double check this somewhat old knowledge of mine before posting. If you have an issue with it, please provide a citation to a reliable article. I'm assuming we don't need to do that though.

Also, keep in mind, communication is two ways. If your ideas are as great as you say they are, the issue isn't necessarily that people are dense, but that you possibly aren't making yourself very clear. In your mind, you have all sorts of information and ideas floating around, and just general knowledge that builds it all up. Your explanations don't appear to take into account that sometimes things need to be explained in different ways. So far, all of your explanation attempts appear to have failed. Every time you make a post, you're adding a little bit more information. However, you're not explaining the full picture.

To make an analogy: it's sort of like painting Mona Lisa's nose, and expecting everyone to understand that you've painted the rest of the Mona Lisa (or at least a sizable portion of it). Likewise, your statements (by themselves) don't make much sense to those reading them. The reason for this is simply that there's not enough information, and/or the information isn't ordered very well. (Though, I'm sure you'll suggest there are other reasons for it as well.)

I will not reply to responses questioning the statements above unless I view your criticism(s) as legitimate and presented in the form of positive feedback. Simply saying "You're wrong" (or variants thereof) will get us nowhere.

However, I would appreciate a reply to the questions I posed above. (Including the statements which imply a response is requested.)

Errata: There are no doubt numerous errors in my post. However, my overall idea is there and easy to interpret. (I would appreciate multiple non-involved parties commenting that they understood what I said here as well.)

Now then, I've spent far too much time on this post. Hopefully it doesn't go unnoticed like the others.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 11:27 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 11:47
Quote: "That is, 'man vs man' and the other 'plots' are more like 'story types.' These might be viewed as basic building blocks which can combine to represent a certain type of sequence of events, all relating to an overall goal, or 'fine summary,'" what would your issue be with that?"


The fact that you have used other plots, when man V's man isn't a plot, it would be an event. In fact man isn't even clarified. Man is already shortened from tall man, slim man, good looking man, spy, footballer, sniper. Man is a wow factor to make it seem like 7 plots wow! In fact I even fell for that in my last post. That's why this talk is dangerous. You need to think clearly if you want to make good games.

The 7 plots thing was only ever a "wow is that true?" It was just somebody trying to make people have an interesting thing in their day. It may as well be "I saw a ghost!"

If you want to come up with good game ideas, notice that you are not as limited as that. Fat man, slim man have meaning to how a game plays. That is just two things. The physics are different, jumping is different, getting through gaps is different. Just two words, and a lot has changed.

Aaron Miller
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 11:43
Note the quotations around plot. Re-read, but this time actually read what I've typed.

RedneckRambo
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 11:51
Quote: "Note the quotations around plot. Re-read, but this time actually read what I've typed."

That's asking way, way too much.

Words cannot describe my Greatness... But I'll give it a shot.

I am awesome....... Yeah, that works.
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 11:51
Quote: "Note the quotations around plot. Re-read, but this time actually read what I've typed."


There's no point, all you are trying to do is close the gap to Wikipedia without actually admitting that Wikipedia is true in the first place. Your psychology is an attempt to make everyone right, and not let me have the credit for being right in my first post. Then you can say that I wasn't trolled, everyone was right. But it's still not true. I don't just allow myself to be insulted, and then allow you to try to make those insults sound right.

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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 12:03
*Sigh* you just don't get it, do you Pincho?

Quote: "You're pulling my leg with this response right? "Something happens to themselves"??"


There are tons of stories out there where there's only one person in it. That person has an inner conflict with himself, hence "something happens to themselves". I'll see if I can find the one I'm thinking of, it was very clever. It started out with two people just talking to each other at first, but as you continued reading it the discussion got more and more heated until one of them killed the other. At the very end you find out that there never were two people, it was one person having a conflict with his mind and flipping out, causing him to do suicide.

TheComet

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 12:07 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 12:11
Quote: "*Sigh* you just don't get it, do you Pincho?"


I don't get that Wikipedia proved me right? I think you don't get it.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 12:43 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 12:43
Wiki's definition:
Quote: "Plot is a literary term defined as the events that make up a story, particularly as they relate to one another in a pattern, in a sequence, through cause and effect, how the reader views the story, or simply by coincidence"


Scroll down to plot outline.
Quote: "A plot outline is a prose telling of a story to be turned into a screenplay. Sometimes called a "one page" (one-page synopsis, about 1-3 pages in length). It is generally longer and more detailed than a standard synopsis (1-2 paragraphs), but shorter and less detailed than a treatment or a step outline. There are different ways to create these outlines and they vary in length, but are basically the same thing."


But not all plot outlines are turned into screenplays, some are used for literary study. But you can't rely on Wikipedia for 100% accuracy, it is why it is not considered an acceptable source at University. If I used Wikipedia as a reference at University, I would have failed the essay. Wikipedia is a community encyclopedia, meaning people add their own bits of information and they could be wrong, awkwardly phrased or simply inaccurate. The main use I find for Wikipedia? Its sources.

Scroll down to 'See Also', top of the list, article on the guy who formulated the 7 basic plots (Athur Quiller-Couch). The 7 plots originally used in this thread were his 7 basic plots as he defined them. At least wikipedia says he formulated them.

Oxford Dictionary's definition (who are kind enough to offer an example):
Quote: "the main events of a play, novel, film, or similar work, devised and presented by the writer as an interrelated sequence: the plot consists almost entirely of a man and woman falling in love"


I would consider the Oxford Dictionary to be the more reliable source.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 12:47 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 12:49
Quote: "the plot consists almost entirely of a man and woman falling in love"


...almost entirely, means not completely. If you have 7 plots, but they are not complete, you have at least 14 minimum, and even that is being too generous, not only that but it includes an action "falling in love." There are thousands of actions.

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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 12:57 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 13:11
Well, I already answered that one earlier on in the thread.

Man against man is still an action. I also said many of these seven basic plots may be weaved together to make a bigger more complicated plot, but still comes down to those 7. I feel like you've got selective listening skills.

Regardless. Wikipedia referred to them as plots. Oxford Dictionary's definition is compatible. That's all there is to it.


[edit]
Quote: "I don't just allow myself to be insulted,"


Then what gives you the right to insult others? I was pretty insulted by your "I am a genius years ahead of his time, you're not, so I'm right, you're wrong and you'll realise this when everybody else catches up". You wouldn't believe how insulting that is to a person's intelligence, especially when it's a topic that person is highly knowledgeable about. Not trying to be arrogant, but it is the subject area I spent 2 years at 6th form studying and a further 3 years at University, doesn't necessarily mean I am right 100% of the time, but I have the humility to admit that. But to be met with a comment such as you made is highly insulting to my intelligence.

But all I was doing was trying to have a discussion. Heck, I hadn't done anything to insult you, but I suspect it's this general sort of thing that has had insults hurled at you. It was insulting and disingenuous, so I don't think you really have a foot to stand on as far as people's insults go.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:15 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 13:19
Quote: "Regardless. Wikipedia referred to them as plots. Oxford Dictionary's definition is compatible. That's all there is to it."


Fine, but it's really bad for you to think like that. It messes up your logic gates. But if I can't help any of you, then I can't help any of you. If you want to make good games you need more chaos, and less order.

Seppuku Arts
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:19 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 13:20
I trust the oxford dictionary to make accurate definitions of words. You trust sources only when they agree with you.

It's not a sign of somebody who can never be proven wrong because they're always right but somebody who can never be proven wrong because they always shift the goal posts.

TheComet
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:19 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 13:20
@Pincho

Good for you.

TheComet

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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:21 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 13:24
Edit: Never mind...

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:22
Quote: " I trust the oxford dictionary to make accurate definitions of words. You trust sources only when they agree with you."


It is true, I made my list..

1/ My Interpretation
2/ The dictionary
3/ Science

I'm sticking with my view that a film doesn't break down to 7 basic plots. You can't get the film back, you have lost information. The Universe doesn't lose information. Man has created an idea that loses information so that idea is wrong.

TheComet
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:26
Quote: "Can a mod just lock this thread now?"


I'm sorry for contributing to the derailment of this thread. I tried a few times to get back on topic, but to no avail.

TheComet

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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:28
When you hold your 'interpretations' above all else in the world, you're opening yourself up for delusion, because instead of relying on external and therefore measurable sources, you're relying on how you choose to interpret the world and if nothing outside of your version of the world conforms to it, then it is wrong, regardless of evidence.

Oxford Dictionary on 'Delusion':
Quote: "an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder:"


Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:28
Yes TheComet is right. Stay on topic.

Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:29 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 13:31
Quote: ""an idiosyncratic belief or impression maintained despite being contradicted by reality or rational argument, typically as a symptom of mental disorder:""


Yes, quite often. You should talk to me in a pub or something, the internet isn't ideal for complex arguments.

But anyway, we should be talking about creating complexity in games.

TheComet
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:30
Look, Pincho, just start a new thread saying "7 basic plots are wrong" and we can continue discussion there.

TheComet

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Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 13:32
I was more interested in focusing on the complexity that is supposed to fit into games to make them original. That was my intention. It swung around getting to complexity, because we went to order instead.

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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 14:16
Quote: "If you want to make good games you need more chaos, and less order."


While I do like randomly generated content - a lot, some games really just need to be played, like you would read a book.



Whose eyes are those eyes?
Pincho Paxton
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Posted: 25th Aug 2012 18:40 Edited at: 25th Aug 2012 18:42
Well that solves this thread for you then. Just make a game like you were reading a book. Sounds very easy.

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