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AppGameKit Classic Chat / Freedom Engine - THIS MUST BE WRONG!

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haliop
User Banned
Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:18 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 17:31
how come Freedom Engine that will be released at its beta stage on the 12 this month will support 3D but no AppGameKit update on the 3D Issue.. and these 2 supossed to be the same !?
i am sorry for saying this
but


(no swearing)
i am super pissed by this!
i want 3D on AppGameKit also on the 12 !

(sorry for the harsh lang , but this really upsets me!)

ty and have an awesome day , nadav.

RickV
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:27
Hi, don't worry 3D will be in AppGameKit too. Lee is in the land of nod right now but will be up early evening and he can inform you as to when the 3D commands can be released to AppGameKit users.

Rick

Financial Director
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bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:30 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 17:30
I am with you Haliop, I think Freedom Engine will be the end of AppGameKit T2
Van B
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:31
Seems like a cool system, best news of all is HTML5 though... does that mean that we effectively have a platform for Facebook apps as well as AGK's supported formats?

Health, Ammo, and bacon and eggs!
3d point in space
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:32 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 17:37
Haliop I like you and all, but I think that your language is not appropriate. Just watch your language next time. You might get slapped by a mod. You can't use cuss words then say sorry it is not appropriate. I don't think this will be the end of agk ether because html 5 is slow on some devices.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:38
Quote: "How does FE tie in with AppGameKit? Will they be in sync?
Freedom Engine is very much AppGameKit in new clothes. We don’t feel FE replaces AppGameKit, it’s a new type of service that will appeal to a different demographic. So developers will want to stay with AppGameKit as an offline system, others will love the new online paradigm. A single code base produces both AppGameKit and FE engines, so fixes and features in one benefit the other."



this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:43
Baxslash we don't even have proper working T2 templates!
I have a strong feeling that unfortunately T2 users will be left behind.

I hope that I will be proven wrong. If I am not, this will unfortunately be the last straw.
haliop
User Banned
Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:47
sorry for the languge but this really upsets me.
how can they move onto a new platform while the known is left behind?

i would expect to see 3D first in AppGameKit then in the new platfrom its simply not fair to all users who have bought AppGameKit! not FAIR!

baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 17:54
Quote: "I have a strong feeling that unfortunately T2 users will be left behind."

It's a Tier 2 library, all the code used in FE is the same as AGK. If there wasn't a T2 library for each platform the players wouldn't work so how can T2 be left behind? I'm sorry you don't have working templates, I can't comment on that because I don't know the problem there. All I'll say is that Tier 1 works on top of Tier 2 not separately from it.

Quote: "how can they move onto a new platform while the known is left behind?"

Again, read the article. It's essentially a new cloud based IDE for AGK.

Quote: "i would expect to see 3D first in AppGameKit then in the new platfrom its simply not fair to all users who have bought AppGameKit! not FAIR!"

I am using the 3D commands in AppGameKit now, it hasn't been fully added to Freedom yet as far as I'm aware.

Let's not let fear get the better of judgement. Just wait and see, there are great things afoot


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
3d point in space
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:00 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 18:04
I trying too look at the engine to compare them but there seems to be a lack of information about the freedom engine. I think that html 5 will do better then the freedom engine. I just don't like how slow html 5 is on some devices unlike opengl which uses the cpu graphics.

Some of the templates work and some don't I have found in teir 2. I just use the templates that do work.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:10
Baxslash, don't worry about the Templates, I have fixed those myself and got them working, but it was very annoying not to get working templates out of the box!

I hope you are 100% right... I'm not asking much, I don't want html or 3d myself, all I want is the small annoying glitches in 2D AppGameKit to be fixed!
CodeGit
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:14
Guys, if I'm understanding this correctly, then this is a BIG improvement for AppGameKit, as it will be easier to publish for all the different platforms. IE. You can still code off line and then purely use the online IDE to publish. (This is my understanding)

------------------
baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:14
Quote: "I'm not asking much, I don't want html or 3d myself, all I want is the small annoying glitches in 2D AppGameKit to be fixed!"

Me too, I'm using it full time now remember


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:16
3d point in space, HTML5 works great on mobiles and tablets.

I have scrapped all my dev tools for productivity apps and now work exclusively with HTML5 for cross platform compatibility.

For games & speed you should check out CoocoonJS!!!
BatVink
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:19
My opinion is this (and bear in mind I don't work directly for TGC)...

For a product to be continually maintained, the business has to be successful. The more successful the business is, the better maintained the product. This has been true for hundreds of years and isn't restricted to IT.

So FE for me is a win-win situation. TGC produces FE, which requires a temporary side-step into HTML5. The immediate pay-off is that you get HTML5 in AppGameKit, and in the longer term a more lucrative business. From this point onwards the products will be in synch, give or take a few weeks here and there, but the AppGameKit community is richer for the introduction of FE.

If you read carefully, FE does not yet have 3D. You can also see that the 2 products have the same codebase, so it is impossible for AppGameKit to be left behind.

I think HTML5 will be a huge boost for AppGameKit / FE. Playing games online will bring much publicity.

bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:26
BatVink the problem I see with your line of thought is that AppGameKit wants to compete with already established HTML5 game creation tools, but AppGameKit 2D still does not offer all the features the other systems have.

Plus, FE will not have all AppGameKit commands from day 1 so it will be even more "restrictive"

However I agree that TGC need to do something to try to expand their business.
BatVink
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:40
Quote: " AppGameKit wants to compete with already established HTML5 game creation tools"


AGK also exports to Android, iOS, Mac and Windows from the same codebase. HTML5 is another platform, rather than a competitor to HTML5-only tools.

If I just wanted HTML5, then I agree that I wouldn't use AGK/FE. The attraction for me is Windows + Mobile in one package.

mr_d
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:45 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 18:55
I hope I'm wrong, but it seems TGC periodically try to chase after the golden carrot and runs off at tangents to what they are supposed to be (or reported to be) doing. I know news like this had to be kept under wraps as it's a commercial enterprise and they want to get the jump on competitors, but it seems from past evidence, the old(er) products gets left on the shelves to collect dust (how long have we been waiting for DBP update 7.7 now? Wasn't there supposed to have been this effort to get that updated and cleared off?)...

I don't really want to be on the nay-sayer side of the court; and only time will tell how this will end up, but I hope my crystal ball is acting up and giving me a false picture.

The idea of something like the FE has always been there as a good avenue on development, but apart from technology constraints (cloud, broadband, etc.), the other major factor that will determine if this is going to be a hit or miss, is the whole security factor and how secure the storage of what possibly could be a lucrative IP product, actually is in reality, as well as the perception of this.

Even though it seems that this FE will be able to produce even more targets apparently much easier than even AppGameKit (both now and in the future); having it online seems to be too much of a gamble for now, unless/until it is proven that it is very secure.

Having said all that, because I try to be a firm supporter of TGC, I'll probably be signing up to that Gold tier for extra storage when they start accepting registrations...

3d point in space
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 18:58 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 19:06
all these engines coming out is really confusing. They all want you to use there engine, and each one is different. I don't know how many different ways you can make a game but there seems to be a-lot of different ways know. Unity, CoocoonJS, AppGameKit, Monkey, Freedom Engine, how many engines does one need. I hope we don't have to learn them all to be a good programmer.

I looked at "Game Salid"- One game on "Game Salid" gets a-lot more downloads then agk does. It also looks like a nice editor.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 19:15
BatVink, I have to agree with you here, my main use of AppGameKit was to produce iOS & android games, since I already had a good knowledge of DarkBasic.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 19:17
3d Point, forget Game Salad
MarcoBruti
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 19:23
Very interesting.
A question, once a game a done, being HTLM5, how can you played by the final users? Shall it be downloaded by the FE site by typing an URL, or may we download the code locally to be accessed from our web server or by our preferred hosting provider?
Being HTML5, we could save the page source.
The Daddy
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 19:42
Emmmmm Interesting. Firstly I think that from a business point of view, this will provide TGC with a constant revenue stream with subscriptions, rather than lots of one time purchases of a particular project followed by a drip feed of income. From that point of view any subscription based income is better than one off sales.

This will 'Feed' the machine which will enable better and more maintained software. Theoretically allowing them to employ more developers if required. This would mean features and bugs ironing will be done quicker.

However, if this is quite a success it may mean that the TGC have a company with constant income that would be an attractive purchase......if offered enough they may sell. Who knows.....what then.......I ponder deeply!

As a purchaser of AppGameKit I would expect something back from TGC. After all I have invested in them only to see them divert with a similar product albeit accessed differently. This may mean (and of course will be denied) that focus will leave AppGameKit and be put into FreedomEngine....I can fully understand the concern posts above.

I would feel pretty upset if after my concerted efforts to get so far, it would be in any way have been a waste of time.

However, of Freedom, is amazing and as an investor in the TGC team, we get an upgraded subscription or something similar, and it makes deployment easier than it is now then this would be great. Of course the flip side is, the easier game creation gets, the more competition there is and ultimately developers and user loose out with a quantity rather that quality scenario. To make any income developers would have to turn out more product quickly. User will be bombarded even further with a flury of speedily built aps that may prove to be poor. Overall outcome, people down load less and pay for less.......

TGC....I think you need to be clearer to your 'investors' what the plan is. Please. After all, for a free option user can write code up to four thousand chars. Ok this will not be the next big seller but for free a multitude of silly apps will hit markets....Not Fair to your back bone coder users whom have already got into AGK....

Constantly seeking!
3d point in space
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 19:46 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 19:51
look at "Game Salid" it cost a-lot more then AppGameKit does. 299 per year for subscription. Yet they produce tones of games that requires no programming. I am kind of worried about no programming of game salid though. That means that c++ is out the door and I have spent so many years learning this great tool. It also means that other game creator tools for html 5 will come out that have no programming and swap the ios industry. So I guess making simple games for agk in the future will be out of the question. Because they will have an editor that will do the same simple game in less time.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 20:10
If both are done to the best possible standard a simple games produced by a drag and drop editor will never beat a fully programmed from scratch game.


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
Cor
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 20:18
Before agk, game salad is what my team used for our apps. Their editor is slow unstable and your finished game runs kind of slow. I had to save my projects a lot because of editor crashes.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 20:40
The Daddy, this is exactly my same worry.

If I look at the past, DarkBasic and DarkGDK have kind of been left behind.

I worry that the same will happen with AGK.

When will the next AppGameKit update be available? We don't know, as the team is concentrating on FE now.

It makes sense for TGC to push FE as this will get them more income. However it's not good for us who bought AppGameKit from day 1, on the scope that it will be a 1 time cost and it will be updated regularly.
3d point in space
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 20:53 Edited at: 3rd Sep 2012 20:55
I am just tired from making my sprite editor. I think it is a good project but it hard too do because, I get easily distracted from it since I have other things that I like too do. I tried Spriter today and it crashes alot. I had three sprites on the editor then it crashed then I used my editor and thought why doesn't the guy making Spriter hire people that are making there own sprite engines. Kind of the theme of gui's they say there great and they crash more oft then not. My engine is more specific to AGK. Sure you can use the xml portion for other programs but I find that my editor crashes less then Spriter does of course it does not look as good as Spriter editor does. That is probably because I only have wrote the editor for 64 bit windows also.

Developer of Space Chips, pianobasic, zipzapzoom, and vet pinball apps. Developed the tiled map engine seen on the showcase. Veteran for the military.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 20:58
Spriter is in alpha state, that's why it crashes. In 2 months' time it will be the 2d animation tool everyone will be using.
DVader
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 21:01
Wow, I am amazed at this change of direction by TGC. I for one have very little interest in a cloud based app. I certainly wouldn't want to start paying a subscription for any web space. At the rate I am earning cash from what I have released so far, (okay, only one free game) it will probably take me a few years to pay back the Google fee lmao.
It reminds me of MOAI clouds service, in it's business model. If this is continuing AppGameKit dev than it's not so bad. If it is diverting from it then it is bad. It hasn't even been 12 months (almost, but not quite) since AppGameKit was released, and now it seems people will be able to have an equivalent for free, albeit with tiny storage options. I can see why some people have jumped out of their pram on this lol. AppGameKit wasn't cheap when it was first released, and lets face it, all the promised features still haven't been finished or even added yet!
HTML5 support was the reason I bought AppGameKit, I wasn't actually bothered about phone apps at the time. Obviously, as HTML5 support is still vapourware, I have delved into phone apps as I had no real choice.
Oh 3DPointinspace, no app that makes games is going to make C++ redundant. Those apps are very likely coded in C++. In fact I don't know why people who know C++, even bother with AppGameKit at all. I would have thought there are more powerful options out there for experienced C++ coders.
If I was planning to learn a new language I would be tempted to go the Unity route, as it still in my eyes seems about the most powerful free option out there. Although I have no idea what costs will be involved down the line with that. I didn't much like it when I tried it a year or 2 back though, but did like the stuff made in it lol.
Perhaps they have changed the name to freedom to avoid the Angry German Kid comparison. Which I can understand.

bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 21:25
Unity is best suited for 3d applications.

You choose to go AppGameKit T2 because you have spent months working with DarkGDK and hence have a good knowledge of the TGC system, and hence can jump in immediately.

The promises sounded good 1 year ago and the price was quite ok. nowadays i am not so sure anymore. i want to wait 1 more month to see if a new update comes out. if not, then history will speak for itself, what the future will bring.

My next project is a storybook app. Since there are no time-critical issues I decided to do this in HTML5 in a no-programming tool. I have already done 2 pages in 1 day and they run at 120fps on ipad!
Mobiius
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 21:49
What, so TGC have sacked AppGameKit and have moved onto something else?

Nice of them.

I live for video games! (And beers, and football, and cars!)
See what I live for here: [url]http:\\www.TeamDefiant.co.uk[/url]
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 21:52
Mobiius, they have not sacked AGK.
They have extended AppGameKit to the Cloud.

T1 users don't have to worry as the language used by FE is exactly the same.

We will have to see how things for T2 will turn up, and how frequent AppGameKit will get updated.
baxslash
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 22:12
Amazing how little T2 users understand T1. We CANNOT update T1 OR F.E without updating T2. It is impossible as they all use the same libraries!!

This is not a change of direction it's an expansion.

AGK is not being replaced, a web version is being added.

Can it get any simpler?

Maybe we could have called it AppGameKit cloud or something but the only difference would be the name

I'm really surprised, I was very excited when I heard about this...


this.mess = abs(sin(times#))
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 22:28
Baxslash, we understand how things work so don't be so annoyed with us mere mortals, what we don't understand is why all these great new features and updates we read about in blogs & newsletters are never released, yet FE is coming next week!!!

Even though personally I have no use for HTML5 and 3D, there are people here that need those features, so it's good to dedicate time to have these out asap too.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 22:33
i like the cog wheel logo, it reminds me of another toolkit i use!
Cliff Mellangard 3DEGS
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 22:41
Ok people dont only read the headline!

Freedom engine is as bax writes a cloud based version of agk.

But a better name would be agk cloud instead of an entirely new name that seam to confuse people.

I think its great and wants to test it as almost all agk commands will work out of the box.

Android 2.3 Gingerbread , ZTE Skate , 480x800 , 800 mhz cpu , Samsung Galaxy Y , 240x320 , 832 mhz cpu
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Almus
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 22:45
Quote: "Amazing how little T2 users understand T1. We CANNOT update T1 OR F.E without updating T2. It is impossible as they all use the same libraries!!"


I also. That was the idea I had, tier 1 is nothing more than a "wrapper of tier 2". So, AppGameKit commands needs to be implemented in C++ at first and then "wrapped" to basic.

Im very excited with FE and html 5. Keep up the hard work.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 22:50
its a new brand not associated with TGC.

i think they did well by creating a new name, logo, etc... it's more edgy for the kind of customers they are trying to target.
LeeBamber
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:10
Hi Guys and Gals,

I can see why you might think Freedom Engine replaces AppGameKit, as it was quite a splash we made These days, we're competing with some big players, and we need to make big splashes!

The reality of course is that Freedom Engine and AppGameKit are one and the same, simply delivered differently. It's like pasta, we give different names to pasta based on how we fold it

Some juicy facts for troubled minds:

* AppGameKit V108 alpha now has commands for Facebook, Twitter, notifications, in-app purchasing and Ad-Mob

* The internal build also loads textured, lit 3D OBJ models and I recently created a small first person demo with it

* We're also adding commands for Compass, NFC, Gyro, Inclinometer and Orientation sensors

* We're also porting the engine to run under the former-Metro mode allowing your apps to be sold through the new Windows 8 store

And this is the important bit; All of the above MUST be written in AppGameKit before we can port it to JavaScript for the HTML5 based Freedom Engine. When it comes to release cadences, AppGameKit users get the features before Freedom Engine does. Not because of marketing or business strategies, but because we need to write our features in C++ before we can port to other languages.

We realised when we designed Freedom Engine that a good majority of AppGameKit users will prefer to stick with the current offline approach to app development, which is why the AppGameKit product will continue to be sold in parallel to Freedom Engine. When we have finished the HTML5 3D and brought the commands up to date, we'll be adding the HTML5 Player to the AppGameKit supported platforms list.

Sure the AppGameKit offline product will be phased out, but only in ten years time when everyone is entirely in the cloud and there is no-one left who uses 'local' storage. In the meantime, the vast majority of developers here will prefer offline development and AppGameKit will be there to cater for that need. That includes the ability to compile (when the templates co-operate) down to T2 native apps.

I do apologise for the delay in getting V108 to you, and bringing the Playbook and Bada platforms up to speed. The original road-map changed during our HTML5 development when ran a poll and the feedback suggested that many of you really really wanted 3D, and a few other key features such as in-app purchasing. We decided to hold back on V108 and add as many of the requested commands as possible to make subsequent roll out a little easier (i.e. we could test everything at once instead of bit by bit).

The online IDE and compiler idea had been knocking around the office for years but it was only when we started to see the first AppGameKit example apps running in the HTML5 Player that we realised the potential of a browser based experience.

Once upon a time, most people used Outlook to consume their email. Now most people use Google Mail. The reason was convenience. You could now access your email from any location, on any device. We no longer feared losing our data, and in fact, our data became more secure than when it only existed on your PC. I lost many an email collection due to a fried hard drive. That was over five years ago, and I've never lost a single email collection since.

Freedom Engine hopes to emulate the convenience of Google Mail. Write AppGameKit code on your desktop as usual, but when you're out and about, you can quickly check back in and carry on working. Show your friends what you are working on without carrying a USB stick around with you. Have your team all working in the same project area, having those changes instantly available to the others no matter where they are.

As a final note before I open the floor to a friendly avalanche of questions, the Freedom Engine is currently a Beta launch so be kind if you choose to check it out later next week. With the exception of Dave, the entire team (Mike, Paul, Steve and myself) actively use AppGameKit T1 and T2 to develop side projects and it remains our core technology. It ain't going anywhere!! The worst that will happen is we rename it to something like 'Freedom Engine Native' and market it to those users who want a 'buy once and own it' product.

To change the subject slightly, and to show AppGameKit development at it's most cutting edge, check out my latest Blog for the Ultimate Coder Challenge: http://ultimatecodertgc.blogspot.co.uk/

Lead Developer of Dark Basic Pro, FPS Creator and AppGameKit (App Game Kit)
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:31
Thanks for the news Lee!

Do you think we will be waiting a lot for v108, the version with the fixes from the bugs board and the new iap and other commends but without the 3d?
Cor
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:31
Thank you for clearing things up lee
I am looking forward to all those commands especially in app purchases. App game kit is by far the best tool that I've used for mobile app development.
bjadams
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Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:38
And by the way, putting in Windows "Metro" support is the best thing you could do!

i think the ogl to dx11 system you came up with will also pave the way for doing a windows phone agk
BatVink
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Location: Gods own County, UK
Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:41
Blimey, all that just so you could "flog your blog"

{backtracks} nice blog this week, love the video intro.

LeeBamber
TGC Lead Developer
24
Years of Service
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Joined: 21st Jan 2000
Location: England
Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:50
Thanks for the comments My personal goal is to get V108 out the door supporting all platforms by Christmas, but I also realise you have waited a long time and so I am inclined to release some kind of AppGameKit V108 'Windows/iOS' BETA once the IDF dust settles so you can check out the new commands that the internal team have been enjoying for a while. Unfortunately you will have to take the 3D commands as well, it's an all or nothing deal No charge!

Lead Developer of Dark Basic Pro, FPS Creator and AppGameKit (App Game Kit)
bjadams
AGK Backer
16
Years of Service
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Joined: 29th Mar 2008
Location:
Posted: 3rd Sep 2012 23:59
Give us 108 and we will point out the bugs & problems in no time at all, so that you won't waste too much time testing

Because of IAP and AdMob I would say it's better to get 108 out asap than wait for Xmas, as those 2 commands are eagerly wanted by many.
bjadams
AGK Backer
16
Years of Service
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Joined: 29th Mar 2008
Location:
Posted: 4th Sep 2012 00:02
Also i don't mind paying for an AppGameKit 3D if the price is decent, even though i won't plan to be doing any 3d project until 2014, but if updates will keep coming out regularly it will be worth the investment for me.
Cor
AGK Developer
13
Years of Service
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Joined: 19th Dec 2010
Location: Its a trap!
Posted: 4th Sep 2012 00:03
I like the idea of a beta version before christmas as my apps would benefit greatly from those commands.
haliop
User Banned
Posted: 4th Sep 2012 00:25
ty for your answer lee. i almost lost my mind after reading about FE ty for answering .
but please please hurry up with the 3d
have an awesome day.

Hodgey
14
Years of Service
User Offline
Joined: 10th Oct 2009
Location: Australia
Posted: 4th Sep 2012 00:34
Quote: "Amazing how little T2 users understand T1. We CANNOT update T1 OR F.E without updating T2. It is impossible as they all use the same libraries!!"

It's more the template projects that cause a bit of strife. In T1 you create a new project and away you go, in T2 it requires a few more steps. Having said that, I've been able to get the T2 projects running on both PC and Mac without too much trouble so if I can do it so can you guys.

Thank you for all of the info Lee! FE sounds like a great product. Just one question for now.

In the circumstance that we need more than 250mb, how much storage and at what rate, is the next level up?

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